every person's favorite expac is simply the bell curve of their experience in wow. It's when they were most engaged.
while i agree with this in spirit i have to observe that goddamn no one ever says cata was their favourite
... I do. It had the dumbest ending of all expansions, but it was my favorite. Mostly because it showed how different Blizzard's design for the game got when they revamped the old world. Plus the talent tree cut-down and implementation of making level 10 the start of talent specs feel like something meaningful was great. The effort in the old world is remarkable, on par with any other new content they create. Sure, some of the quest goals transitioned without a problem, but lining things up to have a coherent path and scripting the events for quests and such takes time and isn't some auto-generated shit.
And plenty of the level 80+ stuff was great. Modern-day Hyjal is one of my favorite new things Cata added.
I'll agree completely with what you said about the ravamped stuff; I went around and did every horde zone and with the exception of 2, they were at the very least great, if not brilliant.
The only "problem" with those zones, is the speed at which you now level up means you'll typically out level a place before you finish it. That coupled with the amount of choice you have with regards to where to quest, and sadly I think a lot of effort has been wasted.
Can I also say that the power of players relative to mobs at the lower levels (you can probably add dungeons to this) is out of whack as well? I'm not saying the mobs have to be challenging or anything, but I don't think it should be at the other end of the spectrum where you don't actually learn anything because you effectively 2-3 shot mobs.
I still think Ulduar's the best raid. Skippable bosses, being able to take bosses in whatever order you want, organic hard modes with multiple tiers, only a few problematic trash areas, and the introduction of the seperate ultimate end boss concept. Everything since had issues that put them below that greatness. Anything introduced after Ulduar is not allowed to have thematic hard mode triggers and anything introduced after LFR cannot have skippable bosses nor can it have choose-your-own-order bosses due to Blizz not wanting to properly change LFR to be different than the normal raids, so nothing will ever get to Ulduar's level ever again.
And yet I still can't get anyone to run Ulduar with me. I started playing right before Firelands hit, and one of, if not my very, favorite part of the lore is the Titans (I still wait with baited breath for the eventual Titan's-theme expac, though I fear Blizz is going to make them villains), and Ulduar....everything I read about Ulduar states it's something I would love. I'm on Stormrage and yet I can't get people to go in with me. It happened once (I joined some others) but everybody but me and two others, quit after wiping to Flame Leviathan.
One reason that I really miss TBC raiding is that even though less people were raiding the people who did raid were all in the same boat. Currently theres only 3 guilds doing 25hc on my server and one of them is always way ahead of mine while the other is always way behind and everyone else is doing 10m which for all intents and purposes is a different game. I'm really looking forward to mythic raiding bringing everyone together again.
The first raiding tier in cata is still my favorite after Ulduar. The problem with cata is that everything after launch was lackluster and not only that but they also started doing raidwide nerfs after a few months just to make sure that everybody could get the chance to become bored. Thank god they stopped doing that on current content.
Mists raiding has been really solid but IMO it has been lacking in epicness. Lei Shen hc is one of my all time favorite fights when it comes to mechanics but its just a big mogu with lightning. Maybe its just because I'm not really feeling the panda lore.
They still do the raid nerfs, it's just once the next content patch comes out. The reasoning they gave was that instead of steadily nerfing the raids, they added upgrading to steadily buff the raiders. Of course, that all went to shit once people went into 5.4 with 100% upgrades on everything with 3000VP in the bank for more upgrades.
I completely agree with the "bell curve" argument. I started in 2005 and didn't have a 60 that was endgame viable until about 2-3 months before TBC dropped. What bothers me about a lot of the "grizzled vets" is they forget why some things happened over the progress of WoW.
Warning, this is going to be long.
1) After WoW was first launched, each class got their own patch as a focus. While stuff was still imbalanced, this was the first pass to bringing things in line. Then we had things like the AQ War Effort and then the gate openings.
2) Attunements, for me, were actually fun and they gave me a reason to quest. Yes, some of them were a pain in the dick, but most of them weren't needed unless you intended to focus on that character for a while, or really wanted to push endgame. The Ony chain was probably the only exception, but I can *still* remember doing Jailbreak with friends, and playing the instrumental Kill Bill opening while RP walking with that fucker we jailbroke. And it was awesome. To this day, BRD is my favorite 5-man.
3) TBC showed up and they used the gear reset to normalize players on the power curve. It lined up perfectly with all the Horde Pallies and Alliance Shaman that were being rolled and essentially powerleveled. And, oh, did the players bitch about how their epics were worthless. This was also when attunements were "fleshed out" (for lack of a better term) to add some gating to the content. You can still find the parody attunement chains. This is when Heroics were introduced; and in my mind, they were used so that dungeons had a bit of longevity over what they were back in Vanilla. Also, BT wasn't released until 4.2 or 4.3; which was about a year into the expansion.
The bitching over gear reset and over attunements was epic, to the point that keying/attunements were no longer needed group-wide (only the leader) in a later patch (pretty sure this coincided with BT dropping). (I've always loved the idea of attunements because it meant that the content was available for those willing to put in the effort.)
TBC had a delayed release, so the devs gave us some of the perks early to tide us over. This is what started the whole "pre-expansion patch" situation. It wasn't done on purpose, from all that I had read during that time. Stuff just wasn't ready, so Blizz did the smart thing and delayed the expansion drop until (iirc) January. The community ate it up, so Blizz adopted it as essentially a tiered release. This set the stage for pre-expac events such as the Scourge invasion and the Twilight bullshit.
4) Right around the end of TBC was when GC came in, and people started whispering about how more of them wanted to see endgame; and how things like attunements and hard gear checks were keeping them from seeing it. It's also when the devs started being a bit more vocal and started discussing how most of their effort was focused on content that was experienced by the lowest percentage of the playerbase. Attunements were scaled back slightly, and discussion began on whether they were needed at all.
5) Wrath showed up with the "epic" Scourge Invasion event. Blizz openly admitted that Naxx was the least attended raid of all time, so they released it as the opening raid tier. And, oh, did the grizzled vets bitch about how it was nerfed. And yet no one talked about how player power was already getting out of hand. We had a rogue that hit ~1800 DPS on Bloodboil near the end of TBC; our whole raid was blowing those individual numbers out of the water by the time we were focusing on Naxx.
Grinding through Naxx (and with Sunwell still in recent memory) got the players bitching about trash. Ulduar was already developed, but trash packs were reduced. Then ToC was released, and everyone rejoiced at the lack of trash!
Until people realized that they no longer had a chance to take a bit of a breather before the next boss.
ToC was also when all the PvP bitching had reached a fairly fevered pitch; since a fair amount of people in PvE gear were rolling in and pwning some BGs. There are some Kripparian vids of him rolling in with all PvE gear and owning face; although I believe this was near the end of the expansion when he was stacking ArPen to ridiculous levels. So what did we get? A Goddamn PvP boss fight in ToC.
Wrath introduced the dungeon finder, and after the relentless bitching about how people no longer had time to do TBC-difficulty Heroics, the content was given a fairly hard nerf. Heroics during the first ~6 mos actually required thought and CC.
ICC dropped and gave everyone the gap-closing, easy Heroics they now feel they are entitled to. I feel this was mostly because Blizzard wanted more people to experience a Lich King kill -- in part because it was an important milestone lorewise, but also to further the "accessibility" mantra. ICC also introduced the scaling content nerf; which if you consider how player power scaled with the stopgap Heroics plus the gear drops in ICC; it was essentially a double nerf.
6) Blah blah blah, ICC was farmed for way too long and Ruby Sanctum was released. People are still debating whether it was tacked-on content or if it was intended. More importantly, Wrath was the high water mark for subscriptions; which I believe is the main reason why people look back to that time as the "baseline" for how the game should be experienced. Various changes since then have caused player subs to decrease; along with the fact that the game was starting to feel a bit old.
Hence why around the time when ICC was getting a bit old, that people started clamoring about how "no one is in the old capital cities anymore" and "why do we even bother going back there" and "the game no longer feels epic; it feels empty." Keep in mind that back when I leveled in 2005-2006, I didn't see a Goddamn Soul until I hit about level 55 or I was in a city, but w/e.
7) We had spent 4 years away from "Azeroth," so the devs used Cata as a way to bring us back to the old zones. You guys have already discussed the revamp. I, too, feel it was largely a waste of resources; in large part because I have only rolled a grand total of 1 new alt since Cata was released. My personal play time "profile," coupled with the large downtime in ICC means I already have all the alts I feel that I need.
My personal take on Cata is it was the worst expansion so far; however I'm willing to admit that part of that is my playtime changed. We had our second child, I wasn't raiding for 90% of Cata, and I was traveling a lot. I mostly just played the AH and tried to do some casual dungeons or fill-in work. It was also when our guild pretty much imploded. We were strictly a 25M guild up until Cata; when it was announced we were going to 10s. I talked casually enough with the officers to know it was in part because they felt we were carrying too many people. Also, a few cliques had developed. By the end of T11, one of the 10s had shattered due to internal arguments and a romantic relationship that got a bit ugly. The second 10M stuck around through most of T12, until the main raid leader began law school in earnest.
An abbreviated history lesson. We've discussed enough about the progress of Heroics, and a bunch of the other crap. Also, I'm at work and I have to stop procrastinating.
Raids:
1. Black Temple
2/3. Even heat between ToT and Kara
4. Ulduar
5. ZG (old version)
Keep in mind I farmed Kara so much that I hated it by the end, but I still had some awesome experiences there. I also hated Ulduar for various reasons, at the time. I still despise Flame Leviathan ("fuck yo' class abilities!"), but I can appreciate the encounter designs. I also hate(d) the way they implemented hard modes; in part because for some of them, you essentially had to do the fight twice (e.g. Big KT,
Bosses:
1. Old Version Hakkar (hey, I was a Hunter forever and I loved how Hunters were needed to pull the Sons for one of the fight mechanics)
2. Illidan
3. Lei Shen
4. Lich King
5. (not sure; I'd have to think about it) Right now it's Thok but that could be because it's recent in my mind
Cata is textbook case of why giving the customer what they want is not always a good idea.
Who the fuck were they talking to in Cata? I mean beyond hard raiders who else?
I really wanted nothing out of Cata when I saw what it was as I really did not get to raid until the lfr and that was not fun at all
And yes I pug raids and dungeons that too was not fun
I really do hope they have learned things from what went wrong in Cata and mists and take that info of what not to do in Warlords
Ah, Forty, I hate LFR Downfall so much. Not because of Garrosh tho, cuz if you can manage to browbeat the other lfr's into the central stack strategy than Garrosh is by far the easiest LFR boss evar! Well, close anyway.
But everything leading up to the bosses in Downfall sucks. I haven't been in a LFR yet where half the raid didnt wipe to the trash before Blackfuse, or lose at lease a quarter in the Klaxxi room before the bosses, or raidwipe at least twice to the trash on that long hallway before Garrosh. It's just....mind-numbing.
Downfall trash is painful for sure. It's like pulling teeth getting people to CC the Garrosh trash, and people almost never reactively CC the patrolling trash, or the tanks don't pull the non-CC'd stuff away so it just gets broken, so there's usually a wipe there.
There's a strat for Garrosh where everyone just stacks up, both engineers are killed during phase one, and tossed weapons are top dps target. Every single LFR I've seen attempt it has wiped before the fight was long enough for a stack to pop, so from my end it's an absolutely terrible strat. The biggest problem is it requires the dps to burn down the weapon asap since it's damaging the entire raid but often in lfr no one gives a shit and keeps attacking garrosh so the healers have to be superheroes for the raid to not wipe. The next biggest and related problem is that it puts a TON of pressure on the healers (raidwide tossed weapon damage, aoe adds stacked on top of each other, melee range of garrosh during whirl) such that a healer not carrying their weight is felt and what ends up happening is the carrying healers end up running OOM partway through phase 2 and then everyone dies.
See, this is how I imagined an "everybody stack" strategy going down.
I completely agree with the "bell curve" argument. I started in 2005 and didn't have a 60 that was endgame viable until about 2-3 months before TBC dropped. What bothers me about a lot of the "grizzled vets" is they forget why some things happened over the progress of WoW.
Warning, this is going to be long.
1) After WoW was first launched, each class got their own patch as a focus. While stuff was still imbalanced, this was the first pass to bringing things in line. Then we had things like the AQ War Effort and then the gate openings.
2) Attunements, for me, were actually fun and they gave me a reason to quest. Yes, some of them were a pain in the dick, but most of them weren't needed unless you intended to focus on that character for a while, or really wanted to push endgame. The Ony chain was probably the only exception, but I can *still* remember doing Jailbreak with friends, and playing the instrumental Kill Bill opening while RP walking with that fucker we jailbroke. And it was awesome. To this day, BRD is my favorite 5-man.
3) TBC showed up and they used the gear reset to normalize players on the power curve. It lined up perfectly with all the Horde Pallies and Alliance Shaman that were being rolled and essentially powerleveled. And, oh, did the players bitch about how their epics were worthless. This was also when attunements were "fleshed out" (for lack of a better term) to add some gating to the content. You can still find the parody attunement chains. This is when Heroics were introduced; and in my mind, they were used so that dungeons had a bit of longevity over what they were back in Vanilla. Also, BT wasn't released until 4.2 or 4.3; which was about a year into the expansion.
The bitching over gear reset and over attunements was epic, to the point that keying/attunements were no longer needed group-wide (only the leader) in a later patch (pretty sure this coincided with BT dropping). (I've always loved the idea of attunements because it meant that the content was available for those willing to put in the effort.)
TBC had a delayed release, so the devs gave us some of the perks early to tide us over. This is what started the whole "pre-expansion patch" situation. It wasn't done on purpose, from all that I had read during that time. Stuff just wasn't ready, so Blizz did the smart thing and delayed the expansion drop until (iirc) January. The community ate it up, so Blizz adopted it as essentially a tiered release. This set the stage for pre-expac events such as the Scourge invasion and the Twilight bullshit.
4) Right around the end of TBC was when GC came in, and people started whispering about how more of them wanted to see endgame; and how things like attunements and hard gear checks were keeping them from seeing it. It's also when the devs started being a bit more vocal and started discussing how most of their effort was focused on content that was experienced by the lowest percentage of the playerbase. Attunements were scaled back slightly, and discussion began on whether they were needed at all.
5) Wrath showed up with the "epic" Scourge Invasion event. Blizz openly admitted that Naxx was the least attended raid of all time, so they released it as the opening raid tier. And, oh, did the grizzled vets bitch about how it was nerfed. And yet no one talked about how player power was already getting out of hand. We had a rogue that hit ~1800 DPS on Bloodboil near the end of TBC; our whole raid was blowing those individual numbers out of the water by the time we were focusing on Naxx.
Grinding through Naxx (and with Sunwell still in recent memory) got the players bitching about trash. Ulduar was already developed, but trash packs were reduced. Then ToC was released, and everyone rejoiced at the lack of trash!
Until people realized that they no longer had a chance to take a bit of a breather before the next boss.
ToC was also when all the PvP bitching had reached a fairly fevered pitch; since a fair amount of people in PvE gear were rolling in and pwning some BGs. There are some Kripparian vids of him rolling in with all PvE gear and owning face; although I believe this was near the end of the expansion when he was stacking ArPen to ridiculous levels. So what did we get? A Goddamn PvP boss fight in ToC.
Wrath introduced the dungeon finder, and after the relentless bitching about how people no longer had time to do TBC-difficulty Heroics, the content was given a fairly hard nerf. Heroics during the first ~6 mos actually required thought and CC.
ICC dropped and gave everyone the gap-closing, easy Heroics they now feel they are entitled to. I feel this was mostly because Blizzard wanted more people to experience a Lich King kill -- in part because it was an important milestone lorewise, but also to further the "accessibility" mantra. ICC also introduced the scaling content nerf; which if you consider how player power scaled with the stopgap Heroics plus the gear drops in ICC; it was essentially a double nerf.
6) Blah blah blah, ICC was farmed for way too long and Ruby Sanctum was released. People are still debating whether it was tacked-on content or if it was intended. More importantly, Wrath was the high water mark for subscriptions; which I believe is the main reason why people look back to that time as the "baseline" for how the game should be experienced. Various changes since then have caused player subs to decrease; along with the fact that the game was starting to feel a bit old.
Hence why around the time when ICC was getting a bit old, that people started clamoring about how "no one is in the old capital cities anymore" and "why do we even bother going back there" and "the game no longer feels epic; it feels empty." Keep in mind that back when I leveled in 2005-2006, I didn't see a Goddamn Soul until I hit about level 55 or I was in a city, but w/e.
7) We had spent 4 years away from "Azeroth," so the devs used Cata as a way to bring us back to the old zones. You guys have already discussed the revamp. I, too, feel it was largely a waste of resources; in large part because I have only rolled a grand total of 1 new alt since Cata was released. My personal play time "profile," coupled with the large downtime in ICC means I already have all the alts I feel that I need.
My personal take on Cata is it was the worst expansion so far; however I'm willing to admit that part of that is my playtime changed. We had our second child, I wasn't raiding for 90% of Cata, and I was traveling a lot. I mostly just played the AH and tried to do some casual dungeons or fill-in work. It was also when our guild pretty much imploded. We were strictly a 25M guild up until Cata; when it was announced we were going to 10s. I talked casually enough with the officers to know it was in part because they felt we were carrying too many people. Also, a few cliques had developed. By the end of T11, one of the 10s had shattered due to internal arguments and a romantic relationship that got a bit ugly. The second 10M stuck around through most of T12, until the main raid leader began law school in earnest.
An abbreviated history lesson. We've discussed enough about the progress of Heroics, and a bunch of the other crap. Also, I'm at work and I have to stop procrastinating.
Attunements and Gear checks
Yeah, the first time you did Jailbreak, it was awesome. What was decidedly less awesome, was having to do the Jailbreak for the nth time, because you needed another healer / tank / dps, because your last one got gobbled up by guild slightly further up the food chain.
Getting the UBRS was a massive pain in the arse, for alliance slightly less so, but not that much.
Nax was a rep grind + items or gold depending on your rep level.
TBC attunements; Kara, again, see Jailbreak. The attunement from the heroics was dependent on who you were trying to get attuned, because heroics were generally a pain in the arse if you were melee, and alot easier if you were range and had a repeatable CC.
Personally, I don't think it's unreasonable that people complained about Gear checks keeping people from seeing content, because it was throughout both these expansions, you'd see people leave lower end raiding guilds with all their gear and head off into the sunset to a guild maybe half a tier ahead. Some guilds just never progressed (SSC and TK had 2 cockblock end bosses).
Further points
ToC was also when all the PvP bitching had reached a fairly fevered pitch; since a fair amount of people in PvE gear were rolling in and pwning some BGs. There are some Kripparian vids of him rolling in with all PvE gear and owning face; although I believe this was near the end of the expansion when he was stacking ArPen to ridiculous levels. So what did we get? A Goddamn PvP boss fight in ToC.
I'm not sure if this was an unreasonable complaint. We had TBC which introduced PvP gear and with it resilience. Generally for that entire expansion, PvP gear was better than PvE gear with the exception of some trinkets and the Legendary PvP weapons.
I don't know if you remember, but the PvP gear was not up to that task in WotLK. The first 3 tiers of it did not deal with the burst going on (something Blizzard admitted to in the first season), and then we had a change in gear scaling in Ulduar which made things even worse.
So for anyone getting pvp gear via honor, the first 3 seasons were bollox, because the gear was not designed with the appropriate stats. Considering we'd had an earlier expansion where it worked fine, I can fully understand why people might have been annoyed that it hadn't been fixed for 3 content patches.
I also hated Ulduar for various reasons, at the time. I still despise Flame Leviathan ("fuck yo' class abilities!"), but I can appreciate the encounter designs. I also hate(d) the way they implemented hard modes; in part because for some of them, you essentially had to do the fight twice (e.g. Big KT,
Apart from having the best lore in many peoples eyes (Titans and old gods) I think Ulduar is mostly remembered because of how great Firefighter, Freya+3 and Yogg+1 were. Not to mention how awesome it was to fight a giant torso shooting laser out of its eyes and how good Algalons room looked.
Not all the fights were up to par but with big instances you can forgive a few duds.
I wish I hadn't missed out on BT raiding. My casual guild back then never got past the fight where random people got turned into ghosts with special skills.
I look back fondly on vanilla and tbc simply because that's when I was part of a dedicated raiding guild. WoW being my first mmo, raiding was a completely unexpected experience and I got really into it at the time. Likewise, those were my favorite dungeons and bosses because that's when I felt like I was part of a team effort.
But that only makes those two stand out a little bit. I always got into leveling alts, so wrath reeaally pulled me back in with heirlooms and dungeon finder to make up for the collapsed guild. And cataclysm marked the first time i finally stopped making alts and focused on ONE character long enough to do reps/collection/professions etc.
I've mostly skipped mists until recently, and agree with the meh comments. The account-wide stuff is appreciated, but also frustrating where it's left out. While I agree that rep should remain per-character, it'd be nice if the "# exalted" achievement switched to account. For now I'm back to leveling alts like crazy while I weigh the pros and cons of carrying my druid into WoD or making something new.
every person's favorite expac is simply the bell curve of their experience in wow. It's when they were most engaged.
while i agree with this in spirit i have to observe that goddamn no one ever says cata was their favourite
... I do. It had the dumbest ending of all expansions, but it was my favorite. Mostly because it showed how different Blizzard's design for the game got when they revamped the old world. Plus the talent tree cut-down and implementation of making level 10 the start of talent specs feel like something meaningful was great. The effort in the old world is remarkable, on par with any other new content they create. Sure, some of the quest goals transitioned without a problem, but lining things up to have a coherent path and scripting the events for quests and such takes time and isn't some auto-generated shit.
And plenty of the level 80+ stuff was great. Modern-day Hyjal is one of my favorite new things Cata added.
I'll agree completely with what you said about the ravamped stuff; I went around and did every horde zone and with the exception of 2, they were at the very least great, if not brilliant.
The only "problem" with those zones, is the speed at which you now level up means you'll typically out level a place before you finish it. That coupled with the amount of choice you have with regards to where to quest, and sadly I think a lot of effort has been wasted.
Can I also say that the power of players relative to mobs at the lower levels (you can probably add dungeons to this) is out of whack as well? I'm not saying the mobs have to be challenging or anything, but I don't think it should be at the other end of the spectrum where you don't actually learn anything because you effectively 2-3 shot mobs.
The only place in old Azeroth that I out-leveled during was Ashenvale Forest, as both Horde and Alliance. For some reason it was the least well developed area that got revamped (in terms of pacing your level ups). Over on the Eastern Kingdoms things play out pretty well.
3) TBC showed up and they used the gear reset to normalize players on the power curve. It lined up perfectly with all the Horde Pallies and Alliance Shaman that were being rolled and essentially powerleveled. And, oh, did the players bitch about how their epics were worthless. This was also when attunements were "fleshed out" (for lack of a better term) to add some gating to the content. You can still find the parody attunement chains. This is when Heroics were introduced; and in my mind, they were used so that dungeons had a bit of longevity over what they were back in Vanilla. Also, BT wasn't released until 4.2 or 4.3; which was about a year into the expansion.
Eh? BT was released in 2.1, the first major patch after TBC's release, in May, 4 months after TBC started. BT was one of the fastest raid zones to be released in a post-retail patch (probably because it was originally intended to be in at release, but whatever).
Edit: Actually I can't think of a new raid that came out in 4 months or less from retail.
forty on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited December 2013
Reading over @Mugsley 's post I remember now how crowd control went from a required asset in dungeons and raids to not important at all in WotLK. People would laugh at me during groups when I'd go "wait, what am I polymorphing?" "lolz just kill everything." And it worked. I don't remember crowd control returning with the same importance it ever had when Cataclysm came about.
Maybe for the better, because I was having a ball doing AoE spikes on my shaman. Flameshock a target, Lava Lash to spread that around, and then Fire Nova. "Hey guys wanna watch me steal aggro from the tank?"
PvP for me peaked in TBC mainly because that was the only expansion where the way Resto druids PvPed in arena gelled with how I liked to play, in that shifting was a big part of the playstyle. One could argue that they were op though, which might also be why I enjoyed myself. All of the PvP changes in the expansions afterwards meant that resto druids were far too weak to be good PvP healers anymore due to the increased burst levels, so I stopped after that.
On MoP, since I only have one character I'm pretty okay with it. If I had multiple I would have probably hated it because even with just one there's a bunch of shit that got on my nerves that'd be compounded with more.
For the Garrosh Center Stack:
I've been away a couple days so I'm sorry for not replying sooner. The reason I like center stack on Garrosh is because it either succeeds or fails right away. If dumb dps aren't gonna hit the weapons, then they're all taking damage and that forces them to pay attention if they don't want to wipe again. If they aren't gonna hit the weapons anyway, it just means it will take ALL that longer to wipe with other set-ups and they'll throw up even more excuses when someone tries to explain post wipe. Also, melee will be in range for weapons so larger pool of dps players to hit weapons. Also, cleave....
The way I've done it, you stack slightly south of center and only kill left (bottom) engineer. This keeps the star passing near the throne to help kill mobs. I agree it's still a strain on healers but if you can argue enough to get ppl to try this strategy, it usually means they're listening enough to tackle the damn weapons. You just move together as a stack during the final phase, migrating out of the weapons you can't fully kill anymore.
I know its purely anecdotal, but this is the strat I've seen do the best with the least. Least necessary number of decent dps. Least hassle. Least movement--and lets face it, the less you have to rely on LFR players to move around in a fight, the better off you are.
I will always be a center stack fan, I'm a full convert. But nobody ever does it. It's always three stacks with two ranged stacks to rotate....and at least 3 wipes before ranged realize that A) you have to kill the fraking weapons, and those fraking markers are important. Don't just go wandering all over the damn map!!!!
For the Ranking:
TBC for me, but that was my first. I didn't play Vanilla. And I'm honest enough to admit that the things that made TBC feel more personal I wouldn't care for anymore. They quest chain to get epic druid flight form. The quest chain for the dreadsteed (my lock also still has all those items in his bank, cuz, well....memories). But I won't stand for that crap anymore. I remember being mad at first that you could fight the bonus boss for the raven mount in TBC without a druid, and I thought. That's fucking unfair. But that died quickly, because I realized having more options in an MMO even if it meant less personalization was still a good thing for how I play games now. I don't want to have to recruit specific classes to do a raid, or a dungeon or anything really. That takes flavor out of the game and I miss that, I do. But I like being able to shape almost any content to my playstyle too. You can't really get it both ways without quadruple the dev work or half-assed finished product. I loved cata for how challenging it was, but I also took the longest break from play because of Cata and those damn heroics. I love WOW because it continuously evolves, and there's no other game that pulls at me like it. I've never hated everything about an expansion, but TBC gets my love because of nostalgia.
“There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
XBOne | LyrKing
That strat seems to be the source of the "we've wiped 5 times on Garrosh and didn't get determination stacks" complaints, and it looks like it'd rely really heavily on the healers because only maybe 5 dps are killing weapons.
It's entirely possible I've had amazing healers all 2 or 3 times I've done it, but man, 3 times without a hitch or wipe makes it my favorite all the same. I'll admit I've got a dps mindset, and having everything you need to dps within 5 feet of each other is ridiculously awesome as ret-pally or arcane mage. I'm sure this is tough and annoying for healers, and it could totally be a mind-fuck as a tank: what with all those mobs and effects going off basically in one place. I'm just really tired of wiping 4 or 5 times or more doing every other strategy.
And I have to reiterate: every single time I've done this strategy, it works. The only exception was one of the times my lfr group did it, only half the people stacked. I don't really consider that to count though, simply because I don't blame the strategy if half the raid doesn't follow it. I do blame it if 3/4 do, and its still an easy wipe (like the three stack strat can be).
Papagander on
“There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
XBOne | LyrKing
Thinking back on it, I have to assume that in LFR the strategies probably don't matter much at all since the chemical mixture that is the players in the raid is so very, very volatile. I've seen front gate Iron Juggernaut one-shots, and then 5 wipes using the same strategy. I've seen three tanking Dark Shamans in lfr (just once) with one shaman in the building with two tanks and on tank out with the other. That was amazing to play, because as ranged dps there was almost nothing to bother me outside with that other shaman. But I'm sure that strategy doesn't work without at least two amazing tanks and some damn good healers too.
If LFR has taught me nothing else, it's that incompetent players can fuck up anything.
“There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
XBOne | LyrKing
So how do people handle the empowered whirlwinds and the spawning of adds on Garrosh? My guild has our execution down pretty much perfect prior to this point, but when the adds start spawning and the axes are being thrown around with energy near 40-41, it becomes a lot harder to manage. We're thinking of having people spread out from each other during the whirlwind, which makes it a bit harder to heal, but picking up adds and not having the adds get powered up because they are getting killed next to each other seems fairly challenging on the one or two attempts we have made at that part of the fight in normal mode.
One suggestion that has been made, is to have all players use a /range 6 with DBM to make sure they are at least 5 yards away from other adds. The dps would then be responsible for targeting one add, getting it away from the others and then burning it down before helping someone else kill theirs. Healers would want to hit some form of CC/root on an add if it spawns and attacks them. Once the adds are down, people then need to clump up to deal with the mind controls. It seems fairly chaotic at this point, so any hints for making this part go smoother are appreciated.
So how do people handle the empowered whirlwinds and the spawning of adds on Garrosh? My guild has our execution down pretty much perfect prior to this point, but when the adds start spawning and the axes are being thrown around with energy near 40-41, it becomes a lot harder to manage. We're thinking of having people spread out from each other during the whirlwind, which makes it a bit harder to heal, but picking up adds and not having the adds get powered up because they are getting killed next to each other seems fairly challenging on the one or two attempts we have made at that part of the fight in normal mode.
One suggestion that has been made, is to have all players use a /range 6 with DBM to make sure they are at least 5 yards away from other adds. The dps would then be responsible for targeting one add, getting it away from the others and then burning it down before helping someone else kill theirs. Healers would want to hit some form of CC/root on an add if it spawns and attacks them. Once the adds are down, people then need to clump up to deal with the mind controls. It seems fairly chaotic at this point, so any hints for making this part go smoother are appreciated.
Have people spread out during empowered whirlwinds, and make sure they aggro the add that spawns on them. The adds themselves have like no health and don't really hit that hard individually. Just make sure people focus them down asap. This was actually an issue for my group when we were progressing on it, people were tunneling and not picking up adds, so they'd all swarm towards the tank.
During the last phase, I'd suggest having one tank stick on Garrosh and the other tank running around picking up adds. Add tank just kites at this point, no reason to kill them. Everyone else just burns Garrosh and the tank pops cooldowns and hope that they live.
Cata is textbook case of why giving the customer what they want is not always a good idea.
Who the fuck were they talking to in Cata? I mean beyond hard raiders who else?
I really wanted nothing out of Cata when I saw what it was as I really did not get to raid until the lfr and that was not fun at all
And yes I pug raids and dungeons that too was not fun
I really do hope they have learned things from what went wrong in Cata and mists and take that info of what not to do in Warlords
I was more referring to Azeroth flying, but yes, less accessibility was an issue as well.
During the last phase, I'd suggest having one tank stick on Garrosh and the other tank running around picking up adds. Add tank just kites at this point, no reason to kill them. Everyone else just burns Garrosh and the tank pops cooldowns and hope that they live.
We've done that on our Flex kills and it seems to work fairly well. We'll have to give the rest of it a shot and try to get the dps to stop tunneling and creating the add pile of doom. Our last attempt had an attempt at the recreation of the doom train from Dark Animus by killing all the adds in a big pile.
Which horde race/gender combo makes the coolest rogue? I wanna race change again
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Downloading the client... Haven't purchased MoP just yet, I'm scared to because it'll make this whole thing more "must actually do." This is just a precaution download.
Thinking back on it, I have to assume that in LFR the strategies probably don't matter much at all since the chemical mixture that is the players in the raid is so very, very volatile. I've seen front gate Iron Juggernaut one-shots, and then 5 wipes using the same strategy. I've seen three tanking Dark Shamans in lfr (just once) with one shaman in the building with two tanks and on tank out with the other. That was amazing to play, because as ranged dps there was almost nothing to bother me outside with that other shaman. But I'm sure that strategy doesn't work without at least two amazing tanks and some damn good healers too.
If LFR has taught me nothing else, it's that incompetent players can fuck up anything.
Yeah, this is the problem with the stack strat. The stack strat is great if you have a good group, but it's terrible if you don't and due to how fast it wipes the raid there's no determination stacks to make up for it. It requires a raid that all agrees on the strat so they all stack up, tanks who know how to properly use cooldowns, healers who can heal their asses off, and dps who can properly switch targets. If any one of those is missing or underperforming then it's a wipe and usually so quick you don't get a stack. The normal method's only requirement is a dps to kill the engineer and a tank who can pick up adds, anything that can go wrong while doing it is much much more recoverable than the stack method and if something does go wrong you get a determination stack to make it easier next time. As such, I'll always pick the latter over the former.
Which horde race/gender combo makes the coolest rogue? I wanna race change again
I have a male troll rogue I've always liked. It's not so much the combat animations but how rogue-flavored gear looks on them. Pretty BA. Plus their stealth movement is pretty slick.
Yeah, this is the problem with the stack strat. The stack strat is great if you have a good group, but it's terrible if you don't and due to how fast it wipes the raid there's no determination stacks to make up for it. It requires a raid that all agrees on the strat so they all stack up, tanks who know how to properly use cooldowns, healers who can heal their asses off, and dps who can properly switch targets. If any one of those is missing or underperforming then it's a wipe and usually so quick you don't get a stack. The normal method's only requirement is a dps to kill the engineer and a tank who can pick up adds, anything that can go wrong while doing it is much much more recoverable than the stack method and if something does go wrong you get a determination stack to make it easier next time. As such, I'll always pick the latter over the former.
this is true, i'm just tired and nostalgic over better raid times. I've had way too many LFR raids that get to a 'clear wipe state' but still fight on for the next 6-8 minutes to hit enrage timer. You know what I mean. Both tanks up, 4 of 6 healers, and maybe 3 dps. Now, I'm a fighter by nature, so I'm usually all about the 'don't count me out till we're all down' mentality. But there ARE certain times when you just can't win. And it's not fun to beat your head mindlessly against a (situation demanding) unbeatable enemy. Nor is it fun to be one of the downed peeps just waiting on the wipe to reset things. It's kind of like the one or two idiots who survive the first part of a wipe to the trash before Garrosh. They then proceed to run all the way back to the instance start so the trash can continue to wipe the raid as raid members are offed whilst reappearing. It's comic, in its epic badness. There's fighting the good fight, and then there's just delaying the inevitable (which, in LFR Speak, is 'wasting everyone's time').
“There are no happy endings, because nothing ends.” ... also, "Ah, turn blue!"
XBOne | LyrKing
Finally killed Garrosh normal tonight! Must have taken ~40 wipes over the few weeks we've seen him. A razor thin victory as well: 5 raid members up, no tanks, pushing him down from ~5% when the tanks died. Insanity. We went down to two healers with me being the third healer out and I was still off-healing very often and timing my Vampiric Embraces as much as I could to help the other healers during painful phases.
Feels good. Nice to get that "Ahead of the Curve" achievement. I didn't even know that was a thing! This one comes with a mount too which is pretty sweet.
Posts
I'll agree completely with what you said about the ravamped stuff; I went around and did every horde zone and with the exception of 2, they were at the very least great, if not brilliant.
The only "problem" with those zones, is the speed at which you now level up means you'll typically out level a place before you finish it. That coupled with the amount of choice you have with regards to where to quest, and sadly I think a lot of effort has been wasted.
Can I also say that the power of players relative to mobs at the lower levels (you can probably add dungeons to this) is out of whack as well? I'm not saying the mobs have to be challenging or anything, but I don't think it should be at the other end of the spectrum where you don't actually learn anything because you effectively 2-3 shot mobs.
And yet I still can't get anyone to run Ulduar with me. I started playing right before Firelands hit, and one of, if not my very, favorite part of the lore is the Titans (I still wait with baited breath for the eventual Titan's-theme expac, though I fear Blizz is going to make them villains), and Ulduar....everything I read about Ulduar states it's something I would love. I'm on Stormrage and yet I can't get people to go in with me. It happened once (I joined some others) but everybody but me and two others, quit after wiping to Flame Leviathan.
The first raiding tier in cata is still my favorite after Ulduar. The problem with cata is that everything after launch was lackluster and not only that but they also started doing raidwide nerfs after a few months just to make sure that everybody could get the chance to become bored. Thank god they stopped doing that on current content.
Mists raiding has been really solid but IMO it has been lacking in epicness. Lei Shen hc is one of my all time favorite fights when it comes to mechanics but its just a big mogu with lightning. Maybe its just because I'm not really feeling the panda lore.
Warning, this is going to be long.
2) Attunements, for me, were actually fun and they gave me a reason to quest. Yes, some of them were a pain in the dick, but most of them weren't needed unless you intended to focus on that character for a while, or really wanted to push endgame. The Ony chain was probably the only exception, but I can *still* remember doing Jailbreak with friends, and playing the instrumental Kill Bill opening while RP walking with that fucker we jailbroke. And it was awesome. To this day, BRD is my favorite 5-man.
3) TBC showed up and they used the gear reset to normalize players on the power curve. It lined up perfectly with all the Horde Pallies and Alliance Shaman that were being rolled and essentially powerleveled. And, oh, did the players bitch about how their epics were worthless. This was also when attunements were "fleshed out" (for lack of a better term) to add some gating to the content. You can still find the parody attunement chains. This is when Heroics were introduced; and in my mind, they were used so that dungeons had a bit of longevity over what they were back in Vanilla. Also, BT wasn't released until 4.2 or 4.3; which was about a year into the expansion.
The bitching over gear reset and over attunements was epic, to the point that keying/attunements were no longer needed group-wide (only the leader) in a later patch (pretty sure this coincided with BT dropping). (I've always loved the idea of attunements because it meant that the content was available for those willing to put in the effort.)
TBC had a delayed release, so the devs gave us some of the perks early to tide us over. This is what started the whole "pre-expansion patch" situation. It wasn't done on purpose, from all that I had read during that time. Stuff just wasn't ready, so Blizz did the smart thing and delayed the expansion drop until (iirc) January. The community ate it up, so Blizz adopted it as essentially a tiered release. This set the stage for pre-expac events such as the Scourge invasion and the Twilight bullshit.
4) Right around the end of TBC was when GC came in, and people started whispering about how more of them wanted to see endgame; and how things like attunements and hard gear checks were keeping them from seeing it. It's also when the devs started being a bit more vocal and started discussing how most of their effort was focused on content that was experienced by the lowest percentage of the playerbase. Attunements were scaled back slightly, and discussion began on whether they were needed at all.
5) Wrath showed up with the "epic" Scourge Invasion event. Blizz openly admitted that Naxx was the least attended raid of all time, so they released it as the opening raid tier. And, oh, did the grizzled vets bitch about how it was nerfed. And yet no one talked about how player power was already getting out of hand. We had a rogue that hit ~1800 DPS on Bloodboil near the end of TBC; our whole raid was blowing those individual numbers out of the water by the time we were focusing on Naxx.
Grinding through Naxx (and with Sunwell still in recent memory) got the players bitching about trash. Ulduar was already developed, but trash packs were reduced. Then ToC was released, and everyone rejoiced at the lack of trash!
Until people realized that they no longer had a chance to take a bit of a breather before the next boss.
ToC was also when all the PvP bitching had reached a fairly fevered pitch; since a fair amount of people in PvE gear were rolling in and pwning some BGs. There are some Kripparian vids of him rolling in with all PvE gear and owning face; although I believe this was near the end of the expansion when he was stacking ArPen to ridiculous levels. So what did we get? A Goddamn PvP boss fight in ToC.
Wrath introduced the dungeon finder, and after the relentless bitching about how people no longer had time to do TBC-difficulty Heroics, the content was given a fairly hard nerf. Heroics during the first ~6 mos actually required thought and CC.
ICC dropped and gave everyone the gap-closing, easy Heroics they now feel they are entitled to. I feel this was mostly because Blizzard wanted more people to experience a Lich King kill -- in part because it was an important milestone lorewise, but also to further the "accessibility" mantra. ICC also introduced the scaling content nerf; which if you consider how player power scaled with the stopgap Heroics plus the gear drops in ICC; it was essentially a double nerf.
6) Blah blah blah, ICC was farmed for way too long and Ruby Sanctum was released. People are still debating whether it was tacked-on content or if it was intended. More importantly, Wrath was the high water mark for subscriptions; which I believe is the main reason why people look back to that time as the "baseline" for how the game should be experienced. Various changes since then have caused player subs to decrease; along with the fact that the game was starting to feel a bit old.
Hence why around the time when ICC was getting a bit old, that people started clamoring about how "no one is in the old capital cities anymore" and "why do we even bother going back there" and "the game no longer feels epic; it feels empty." Keep in mind that back when I leveled in 2005-2006, I didn't see a Goddamn Soul until I hit about level 55 or I was in a city, but w/e.
7) We had spent 4 years away from "Azeroth," so the devs used Cata as a way to bring us back to the old zones. You guys have already discussed the revamp. I, too, feel it was largely a waste of resources; in large part because I have only rolled a grand total of 1 new alt since Cata was released. My personal play time "profile," coupled with the large downtime in ICC means I already have all the alts I feel that I need.
My personal take on Cata is it was the worst expansion so far; however I'm willing to admit that part of that is my playtime changed. We had our second child, I wasn't raiding for 90% of Cata, and I was traveling a lot. I mostly just played the AH and tried to do some casual dungeons or fill-in work. It was also when our guild pretty much imploded. We were strictly a 25M guild up until Cata; when it was announced we were going to 10s. I talked casually enough with the officers to know it was in part because they felt we were carrying too many people. Also, a few cliques had developed. By the end of T11, one of the 10s had shattered due to internal arguments and a romantic relationship that got a bit ugly. The second 10M stuck around through most of T12, until the main raid leader began law school in earnest.
An abbreviated history lesson. We've discussed enough about the progress of Heroics, and a bunch of the other crap. Also, I'm at work and I have to stop procrastinating.
Raids:
1. Black Temple
2/3. Even heat between ToT and Kara
4. Ulduar
5. ZG (old version)
Keep in mind I farmed Kara so much that I hated it by the end, but I still had some awesome experiences there. I also hated Ulduar for various reasons, at the time. I still despise Flame Leviathan ("fuck yo' class abilities!"), but I can appreciate the encounter designs. I also hate(d) the way they implemented hard modes; in part because for some of them, you essentially had to do the fight twice (e.g. Big KT,
Bosses:
1. Old Version Hakkar (hey, I was a Hunter forever and I loved how Hunters were needed to pull the Sons for one of the fight mechanics)
2. Illidan
3. Lei Shen
4. Lich King
5. (not sure; I'd have to think about it) Right now it's Thok but that could be because it's recent in my mind
Who the fuck were they talking to in Cata? I mean beyond hard raiders who else?
I really wanted nothing out of Cata when I saw what it was as I really did not get to raid until the lfr and that was not fun at all
And yes I pug raids and dungeons that too was not fun
I really do hope they have learned things from what went wrong in Cata and mists and take that info of what not to do in Warlords
What? Fuck Blizzard.
Attunements and Gear checks
Getting the UBRS was a massive pain in the arse, for alliance slightly less so, but not that much.
Nax was a rep grind + items or gold depending on your rep level.
TBC attunements; Kara, again, see Jailbreak. The attunement from the heroics was dependent on who you were trying to get attuned, because heroics were generally a pain in the arse if you were melee, and alot easier if you were range and had a repeatable CC.
Personally, I don't think it's unreasonable that people complained about Gear checks keeping people from seeing content, because it was throughout both these expansions, you'd see people leave lower end raiding guilds with all their gear and head off into the sunset to a guild maybe half a tier ahead. Some guilds just never progressed (SSC and TK had 2 cockblock end bosses).
Further points
I'm not sure if this was an unreasonable complaint. We had TBC which introduced PvP gear and with it resilience. Generally for that entire expansion, PvP gear was better than PvE gear with the exception of some trinkets and the Legendary PvP weapons.
I don't know if you remember, but the PvP gear was not up to that task in WotLK. The first 3 tiers of it did not deal with the burst going on (something Blizzard admitted to in the first season), and then we had a change in gear scaling in Ulduar which made things even worse.
So for anyone getting pvp gear via honor, the first 3 seasons were bollox, because the gear was not designed with the appropriate stats. Considering we'd had an earlier expansion where it worked fine, I can fully understand why people might have been annoyed that it hadn't been fixed for 3 content patches.
Apart from having the best lore in many peoples eyes (Titans and old gods) I think Ulduar is mostly remembered because of how great Firefighter, Freya+3 and Yogg+1 were. Not to mention how awesome it was to fight a giant torso shooting laser out of its eyes and how good Algalons room looked.
Not all the fights were up to par but with big instances you can forgive a few duds.
I wish I hadn't missed out on BT raiding. My casual guild back then never got past the fight where random people got turned into ghosts with special skills.
But that only makes those two stand out a little bit. I always got into leveling alts, so wrath reeaally pulled me back in with heirlooms and dungeon finder to make up for the collapsed guild. And cataclysm marked the first time i finally stopped making alts and focused on ONE character long enough to do reps/collection/professions etc.
I've mostly skipped mists until recently, and agree with the meh comments. The account-wide stuff is appreciated, but also frustrating where it's left out. While I agree that rep should remain per-character, it'd be nice if the "# exalted" achievement switched to account. For now I'm back to leveling alts like crazy while I weigh the pros and cons of carrying my druid into WoD or making something new.
The only place in old Azeroth that I out-leveled during was Ashenvale Forest, as both Horde and Alliance. For some reason it was the least well developed area that got revamped (in terms of pacing your level ups). Over on the Eastern Kingdoms things play out pretty well.
Edit: Actually I can't think of a new raid that came out in 4 months or less from retail.
Maybe for the better, because I was having a ball doing AoE spikes on my shaman. Flameshock a target, Lava Lash to spread that around, and then Fire Nova. "Hey guys wanna watch me steal aggro from the tank?"
On MoP, since I only have one character I'm pretty okay with it. If I had multiple I would have probably hated it because even with just one there's a bunch of shit that got on my nerves that'd be compounded with more.
And thanks to work, I can't get a definite history on Black Temple. You're probably right @forty ; I was going from memory.
For the Garrosh Center Stack:
I've been away a couple days so I'm sorry for not replying sooner. The reason I like center stack on Garrosh is because it either succeeds or fails right away. If dumb dps aren't gonna hit the weapons, then they're all taking damage and that forces them to pay attention if they don't want to wipe again. If they aren't gonna hit the weapons anyway, it just means it will take ALL that longer to wipe with other set-ups and they'll throw up even more excuses when someone tries to explain post wipe. Also, melee will be in range for weapons so larger pool of dps players to hit weapons. Also, cleave....
The way I've done it, you stack slightly south of center and only kill left (bottom) engineer. This keeps the star passing near the throne to help kill mobs. I agree it's still a strain on healers but if you can argue enough to get ppl to try this strategy, it usually means they're listening enough to tackle the damn weapons. You just move together as a stack during the final phase, migrating out of the weapons you can't fully kill anymore.
I know its purely anecdotal, but this is the strat I've seen do the best with the least. Least necessary number of decent dps. Least hassle. Least movement--and lets face it, the less you have to rely on LFR players to move around in a fight, the better off you are.
I will always be a center stack fan, I'm a full convert. But nobody ever does it. It's always three stacks with two ranged stacks to rotate....and at least 3 wipes before ranged realize that A) you have to kill the fraking weapons, and
For the Ranking:
TBC for me, but that was my first. I didn't play Vanilla. And I'm honest enough to admit that the things that made TBC feel more personal I wouldn't care for anymore. They quest chain to get epic druid flight form. The quest chain for the dreadsteed (my lock also still has all those items in his bank, cuz, well....memories). But I won't stand for that crap anymore. I remember being mad at first that you could fight the bonus boss for the raven mount in TBC without a druid, and I thought. That's fucking unfair. But that died quickly, because I realized having more options in an MMO even if it meant less personalization was still a good thing for how I play games now. I don't want to have to recruit specific classes to do a raid, or a dungeon or anything really. That takes flavor out of the game and I miss that, I do. But I like being able to shape almost any content to my playstyle too. You can't really get it both ways without quadruple the dev work or half-assed finished product. I loved cata for how challenging it was, but I also took the longest break from play because of Cata and those damn heroics. I love WOW because it continuously evolves, and there's no other game that pulls at me like it. I've never hated everything about an expansion, but TBC gets my love because of nostalgia.
XBOne | LyrKing
And I have to reiterate: every single time I've done this strategy, it works. The only exception was one of the times my lfr group did it, only half the people stacked. I don't really consider that to count though, simply because I don't blame the strategy if half the raid doesn't follow it. I do blame it if 3/4 do, and its still an easy wipe (like the three stack strat can be).
XBOne | LyrKing
If LFR has taught me nothing else, it's that incompetent players can fuck up anything.
XBOne | LyrKing
One suggestion that has been made, is to have all players use a /range 6 with DBM to make sure they are at least 5 yards away from other adds. The dps would then be responsible for targeting one add, getting it away from the others and then burning it down before helping someone else kill theirs. Healers would want to hit some form of CC/root on an add if it spawns and attacks them. Once the adds are down, people then need to clump up to deal with the mind controls. It seems fairly chaotic at this point, so any hints for making this part go smoother are appreciated.
Have people spread out during empowered whirlwinds, and make sure they aggro the add that spawns on them. The adds themselves have like no health and don't really hit that hard individually. Just make sure people focus them down asap. This was actually an issue for my group when we were progressing on it, people were tunneling and not picking up adds, so they'd all swarm towards the tank.
During the last phase, I'd suggest having one tank stick on Garrosh and the other tank running around picking up adds. Add tank just kites at this point, no reason to kill them. Everyone else just burns Garrosh and the tank pops cooldowns and hope that they live.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I was more referring to Azeroth flying, but yes, less accessibility was an issue as well.
Steam: pazython
We've done that on our Flex kills and it seems to work fairly well. We'll have to give the rest of it a shot and try to get the dps to stop tunneling and creating the add pile of doom. Our last attempt had an attempt at the recreation of the doom train from Dark Animus by killing all the adds in a big pile.
Gruul's Lair screenshot from back in the day. Also - what a horrible UI I had then.
866 DPS!
Also, World of Rougecraft!
<_<
Blood Elf.
I have a male troll rogue I've always liked. It's not so much the combat animations but how rogue-flavored gear looks on them. Pretty BA. Plus their stealth movement is pretty slick.
Other than that, undead male is pretty classic.
this is true, i'm just tired and nostalgic over better raid times. I've had way too many LFR raids that get to a 'clear wipe state' but still fight on for the next 6-8 minutes to hit enrage timer. You know what I mean. Both tanks up, 4 of 6 healers, and maybe 3 dps. Now, I'm a fighter by nature, so I'm usually all about the 'don't count me out till we're all down' mentality. But there ARE certain times when you just can't win. And it's not fun to beat your head mindlessly against a (situation demanding) unbeatable enemy. Nor is it fun to be one of the downed peeps just waiting on the wipe to reset things. It's kind of like the one or two idiots who survive the first part of a wipe to the trash before Garrosh. They then proceed to run all the way back to the instance start so the trash can continue to wipe the raid as raid members are offed whilst reappearing. It's comic, in its epic badness. There's fighting the good fight, and then there's just delaying the inevitable (which, in LFR Speak, is 'wasting everyone's time').
XBOne | LyrKing
I would also say blood elf. However I would def wait until they show all the new race models first. That's what I'm doing of least.
I like the female undead special attack animations that is why my monk will be one I just have to pick a name
Undead female. Goblins (male or female) are a close second.
Feels good. Nice to get that "Ahead of the Curve" achievement. I didn't even know that was a thing! This one comes with a mount too which is pretty sweet.
Well I made an undead female warrior and I forgot how awful warriors were to start with now
Still I have to think of a name for my monk
I thought undead female warriors were supposed to have great animations