Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

The PA Report - The Xbox One is a confusing mess of hardware and UI that sings once you learn the vo

2

Posts

  • AnthropophagicAnthropophagic Registered User regular
    @Ben

    From the command list I see that you can send a message with voice commands.. does this include dictating the message itself? Or just opening up the messaging app?

    This is assuming that it launches into a text message of course, I suppose it might send a voice message..

  • PoomerPoomer ColoradoRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @Anthropophagic The windows phone works voice-to-text for messages. It doesn’t do so hot with multiple sentences or punctuation unlike siri, but that can be worked around by saying one sentence at a time. I imagine Xbox is just reusing the code here.

    Poomer on
  • AnthropophagicAnthropophagic Registered User regular
    @Poomer

    Thanks, I use a lot of voice to text with my Android and it has worked fairly well. Though, as you say, punctuation is awkward and anything other than a comma, period or question mark and you're screwed.

  • Casey ReeceCasey Reece Registered User regular
    The fact that they're selling this thing as your go-to living room device - the results of what they ended up doing with their last UI for the 360 (which, by the end of it, looked like a charred hell-scape from some dystopian nightmare) - leaves me with the same conclusion previously mentioned here: MS's intent is to grab hold of all your entertainment streams - and blast ads through them all.

    Imagine - a service dedicated entirely towards adapting ads to every available medium you can use. Using Netflix through your X-Bone? Not before watching a few ads you aren't. You're able to go through the interface effortlessly with the use of your voice? Then put commercials between all the functions you're trying to access.

    Microsoft has shown they're fully capable (and, in reality, already have their entire fee-encroachment campaign worked out well in advance) of doing the worst possible decision for the gamer as a consumer, and the gamer as an enthusiast. They want money. They want all of the money in the world.

    You are nothing but a dirty means to get it. With Sony and Nintendo, their goals are the same, but they still respect the rules of the game more. They still like you actually owning what you purchased.

    It's not that I'm necessarily against "the future." I would just rather have someone a little more socially and community minded than Dr. Frankenstein cooking up the means of getting us there.

    This entire UI sounds like it's rife, ripe, and ready for ad exploitation. Cherish the feeling of being a chump. You're going to be wallowing it for the next six years.

  • TiberiusEsuriensTiberiusEsuriens Registered User regular
    Well, all I need now is someone to give me the money to buy both consoles and subscriptions so that I can hook the PS4 up to the XBone's HDMI-in. That way I can be super lazy with all my media and still enjoy the PS4's gaming.

    @Ben, I haven't really seen anyone talk about the PlayStation Eye since it is no longer part of the base package. I know it is 'inferior' to Kinect 2.0 but I'd be interested in exactly how much it lets people get away with.

  • TenTen Registered User regular
    @Ben, is there a way to stream game audio through the headphones plugged into the controller, like on the PS4? That's almost a killer app right there.

  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    No TEN. The Xbox controller doesn't have headphone support.

  • AnthropophagicAnthropophagic Registered User regular
    Apparently Polk is selling some headphones compatible with the X1. I think they are wireless for what it's worth but it sounds like it doubles as a headset.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/products/4shot

  • Dark JaguarDark Jaguar Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    I don't have any real motivation to use the HDMI-In port on the XBox One, when I eventually break down and get it. It can only take one HDMI input, so for someone like me who's going to keep a PS3, 360, Wii U, and PS4 hooked up to the same TV, that becomes a non-starter. I will instead use a surround sound box for that purpose, as that has worked perfectly for switching between a great number of inputs from a remote. Putting the output from THAT to my Xbox One would feel very inconsistent, especially considering I would also have to put the output from the XBox One's sound "in" to the sound system, creating some bizarre feedback loop that destroys the future.

    I think I'll skip out on that particular step, especially considering that, yes, the added latency is small, but the more links in the chain, the more that latency starts to add up. (I wonder when we'll be able to get digital signals to get that latency back down to old analog sets, so I can finally use a light gun again... well I can dream anyway.)

    Tazsul, yeah I suppose that's a possibility, though realistically I think that it'll be a fringe case. More to the point though, as I've said, I would like a wider system across the entire industry, possibly with regulations in place, to govern digital purchases. It's a problem that people like Ben seem to be convinced doesn't exist, and I disagree. The whole system needs to be overhauled, because at the moment whether or not you even "own" something you "buy" can be revoked at any time by the "store" you bought it from. This is not good for consumers. I could make the claim that it isn't good for the industry in the long run either, but here's the thing. I would rather see the entire industry burn to the ground leaving naught but independent developers than be forced to sacrifice customer rights to prop it up. In other words, ultimately, even if it actually WAS necessary to "save the industry" for companies to basically "control" the entire digital marketplace, I would still be against it.

    Dark Jaguar on
  • IntropyIntropy Registered User regular
    Automated recognition with parental controls sounds really, really convenient to me. If I can sandbox my kids' games and not have to worry about manually logging off, logging in, remembering passwords, etc, that might just be enough to tip the scales this generation.

  • HeadhunterHeadhunter Registered User regular
    To confirm, it sounds like the wireless Xbox 360 headset will not work with the One? I was really hoping to avoid buying another one.

    "Perception is reality." -unknown
  • gnomekingofpaingnomekingofpain Registered User regular
    All the reports I have seen indicate that there is enough latency when routing a second game console through the Xbox One hdmi input to make it a really bad idea. I know IGN posted a video earlier today demonstrating playing the new Wii U Mario game with the Wii U routed through the Xbox One. The advantage of using a Wii U is that they were able to use the tablet controller's screen to clearly show how much latency was going on. It isn't good.

  • RapzidRapzid Registered User regular
    "I quickly saw how antiquated it was to want to keep my games in one area" I have so many Steam Games I don't even know I own. If I had to tell Steam what games I wanted to play, they would be lost forever.

  • EssThreeEssThree Registered User regular
    I think this highlights the problem of Microsoft not playing nice with Microsoft. The Xbox One has amazing voice control, while Windows Phone's is utterly sad. I really hope the new CEO (whoever it turns out to be) fixes this problem...

  • DonRoboDonRobo Registered User new member
    So basically don't buy the Xbox if you don't live in a voice activated country?

    In Austria we don't get voice control or TV or Hulu or Netflix, but because Microsoft understands that this makes the Xbone considerably less valuable we get to buy it for the low, low price of $670.

    I think I'll just get a Steambox instead...

  • TaznakTaznak Registered User regular
    @Casey Reece:
    Your last post sounds somewhat crazy, with a conspiracy-theory feel to it; however, I can't help but kind of agree with it. Microsoft sees how Google practically prints money with AdWords, they want a piece of the action, and the way to do that with the Xbone is to act as a virtual gatekeeper between you and all you want to do with your TV- similar to their role as gatekeepers for using your PC, demanding you pay the Windows and Office toll roads before you can enjoy you can enjoy using your computer.

    The business model is different in this case, replacing large up-front purchases with tinier but constant monetization in the form of ads; but they know it's big business. That's not just how Google makes their money, but Facebook too. And if there's any doubt that Microsoft will go to great lengths to inconvenience their users if there's money for them in it? Well, just look at the evolution of the Xbox 360 dashboard:
    http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/ads-up-games-down-the-ugly-profitable-truth-about-xbox-live-advertising

    I would not be surprised if they're purposefully keeping the Xbone as a positive experience now to get good reviews and positive word-of-mouth from the early adopters, and then unilaterally change the terms of service on you and relentlessly milk your eyeballs with ads.

  • olanmillsolanmills Registered User regular
    @gnomekingofpain, to be fair, I think MS already did state in response to some interview question that the HDMI input is designed for movies/TV and probably wouldn't work well for games due to latency.

    @olanmills64, tweets and pics from the Nintendo E3 Press Conference and E3 show
  • gnomekingofpaingnomekingofpain Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @olanmills Sorta, (though I think your point is legit) in all the interviews I have run across when the idea of running another console into the Xbox One's hdmi input comes up, the MS reps have simply said that it is something you could technically do and leave the topic there. There does seem to be an implication that this is not a practice they are endorsing, but there is a very much a sense that this is a topic MS does not want to get pinned down on either way. Which is probably the smart way for MS to play it. Still, I have run across a bunch of people who have stated their intent to run their set up with another console daisy chained into the Xbox One, so it strikes me as a valid subject to address regardless of what MS has said. Personally, as somebody who is about to hit 8 hdmi devices connected to my TV, it would have been cool if it did work well, but I never expected that it would be a good option.

    gnomekingofpain on
  • Titanium DragonTitanium Dragon Registered User regular
    What people have to realize is that the entire "backlash" thing was ridiculous in the first place. It didn't really matter, but you know how some people are, utterly insane and without any actual rational thought or reason. People describing it as "draconian" were spewing nonsense; it wasn't the end of the world and the vast majority of users, at least in countries that actually matter, would not have noticed.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    It was the draconian always online policy that killed the future.

    Since when is check in once every 24 hours while playing "always online"?

  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @SIDDOWN

    Anything that requires big brother to check in on you periodically is draconian. Also, if you were to play at a friends' house, the check in was hourly. The rate at which people tend to forgive this sort of behaviour is apparently also proportional to the frequency of the check in, and the platform it is occurring on. Steam users are generally OK with a monthly check in, but Steam is also 100% digital download with a high expectation that you will be online far more frequently to buy games anyways. No console is 100% digital, and I think I'm safe in concluding that your typical family does not want such a thing. Steam is also a PC distribution system, which is the de facto "internet machine" in the house. A computer without internet is pretty pointless these days and the user experience would be handicapped without it, while a game console is expected to work without internet to play games from discs.

    More than the periodic verification (you're all filthy pirates unless proven innocent), there was also the whole clamping down on consumer rights ecosystem they were trying to introduce, which was by far the biggest screw you in the whole deal, and the source of the online check in to begin with.

    We may be moving towards a digital future, but one where you're only leasing your digital content is not a future I want to live in.

    Gungan on
  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    @Gungan,

    I'm not going to get into this debate again, you and I clearly see it completely differently. I'm just pointing out the system was never "always online", that's all.

    There are plenty of legitimate reasons to bash MS and the XBone, people don't need to make up ones that don't/didn't exist.

    Honestly I also don't get this differentiation between Steam and Consoles, especially with the SteamBox completely blurring these lines as it's meant to connect to TVs. So buying games digitally on a PC, it's okay to require checkins, but buying games digitally on an XBone, it's not okay, because you call a PC a "PC" and a XBone (despite having PC hardware in it) a "console". Talk about splitting hairs.

    If you call XBone's system "draconian", you have to think the same way about Steam. Sorry, you don't get to pick and choose when you want to apply your morals to something if you want to be taken seriously.

  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    You're right, I would call Steam draconian. That's why I only pay sub-$10 (a rental fee if you will) on anything Steam related, and my Steam library can be counted on your fingers and toes (and I'm not even 100% sure you need toes).

    It doesn't negate the fact that Steam and the Steambox are 100% digital only platforms. Maybe if the Xbone didn't come with a disc tray you could subvert expectations somewhat, but that's not the case. If it were, I am pretty sure I'd be 100% justified in saying that they would have a difficult time selling that box to most of the current market. The Xbox would be relegated to a niche device, much like the Steam box almost certainly will be by anybody who is not 100% invested in their ridiculous Steam library.

    Also, if you haven't noticed, you can still buy games digitally on the Xbone (and PS4, 360 and PS4) even after they removed the daily check in. Doesn't seem to have been a necessary feature at all.

    The point is that Steam is an online service, it started as an online service, has always been an online service, and will continue to be an online service (though in practice you could stay offline for a very long time). You literally cannot buy games for Steam without going online, and it doesn't require proprietary hardware. That is totally different from what people expect a console to be (because that is the way they have been since ever), regardless of what electronics are in the physical box.

    I'm don't even know why you think the hardware issue is relevant. A microprocessor is a microprocessor is a microprocessor. The only difference is who made it.

    Gungan on
  • Dark JaguarDark Jaguar Registered User regular
    Titanium Dragon, no, it was not the "end of the world" (I must presume you are speaking metaphorically). Just one step on the path. As I've said, MS never once needed to take away the family sharing plan from the digital purchases.

    Also, as I've said, until digital purchases are "made real" (and the only way to do that is legal protection for consumers), "buying" a digital good will never make it truly your own. This is something that must be done NOW, BEFORE we all take the time 20 years from now to reflect on the fact that nothing on our computers is "ours" any more, and BEFORE it becomes "common industry practice" to "remove" items from player's accounts for whatever reason the company feels like. Remember when Amazon revoked books from reader's Kindles? If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot kicking over your stuff into the gutter, forever.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    Gungan wrote:
    t doesn't negate the fact that Steam and the Steambox are 100% digital only platforms

    Except it's not. Come on, you know better than that. You know full well you can buy games through other sources (both digitally and physically) and add them to Steam. Statements like this is why I can't take you seriously.
    Gungan wrote:
    I'm don't even know why you think the hardware issue is relevant. A microprocessor is a microprocessor is a microprocessor. The only difference is who made it.

    I'm arguing it's not relevant. Others, including yourself in the past, have argued that Steam's forced check in is okay because it's on a PC not a console. To me, they're both game machines, it's you and others who have somehow argued that steam being on PC somehow makes it different.
    Gungan wrote:
    Also, if you haven't noticed, you can still buy games digitally on the Xbone (and PS4, 360 and PS4) even after they removed the daily check in.

    Yep, but you can't share them with friends or sell them even though they were digitally purchased. Those were the added values Microsoft proposed. Again, you know this because you've commented on this before.

    It's okay to hate everything about Microsoft and the XBone, I'm just saying you need to apply the same standards to everyone. When the opposing political party's guy gets caught cheating on his wife, it's fine for you to want him to resign, you just have to do the same when your guy gets caught. That's all.

  • Dark JaguarDark Jaguar Registered User regular
    Minor thing: Anyone notice how the light glare on that controller directs your eyes, first and foremost, to the new d-pad? Finding a way to get a decent d-pad without violating Nintendo's patents is surely an accomplishment.

  • JD JacksonJD Jackson Registered User regular
    @GUNGAN
    "That's why I only pay sub-$10 (a rental fee if you will) on anything Steam related, and my Steam library can be counted on your fingers and toes (and I'm not even 100% sure you need toes)."

    We need them to improve our balance, don't get rid of your toes!

  • HardtargetHardtarget There Are Four Lights VancouverRegistered User regular
    Minor thing: Anyone notice how the light glare on that controller directs your eyes, first and foremost, to the new d-pad? Finding a way to get a decent d-pad without violating Nintendo's patents is surely an accomplishment.
    Nintendo's Patent is now expired

    steam_sig.png
  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @SIDDOWN

    You can add other games to Steam until Steam patches, and it deletes all your shortcuts. I stopped trying to add my other games to Steam after every patch. You're using the feature that you can create a shortcut to gloss over the fact that the core functionality of Steam is to sell you games digitally that require you to have Steam to play like Xbox games require an Xbox to play. Steam does not sell any physical games. All those other games you bought elsewhere aren't relevant to the discussion of a gaming platform because you don't need Steam to play them. Steam as close to a dedicated platform as you can get without having dedicated hardware, which is why I'm using it as an example.

    I'm not arguing that the hardware is relevant. I'm arguing that the function of the box your platform is on is. Steam only took off because it could take advantage of the fact that PCs were already the go to machine for going online, and you already had this multi-function box that you use for productivity as well as entertainment; might as well make use of it. Consoles were barely starting to scratch the online itch back then, and they are still not the go to machine for going online for anything but multiplayer and maybe video streaming (though the options for that are endless).

    The sharing feature was never clearly defined, and there is absolutely zero reason to believe it would have been better than Steam's recent implementation. The one thing we do know, however, is that the sharing feature was only guaranteed for Microsoft first party titles.

    The value of selling your digital games was completely screwed over by the implementation because you were only going to be allowed to sell to authorized vendors, and you weren't going to be allowed to set your price. You would still only get the shitty price Gamestop currently pays for trade-ins. That's not an improvement to the status quo.

    Neither of those features was worth losing control over your physical purchases since you can do them both with a disc as it is. There is also nothing stopping them from segregating digital and physical games, but for reasons unknown they just threw in the towel. Add lending/trading/selling of digital purchases (and stop making them so restrictive) for people who want to go all digital, but don't fuck over people who buy physical discs by taking those same rights away from them. That would have been the proper and correct implementation of these features.

    Gungan on
  • trackzerotrackzero Registered User regular
    I read that the Kinect works as an IR blaster...but does it come with an additional remote IR transmitter? My Kinect will be below my TV, my TiVo is behind a solid wooden door well out of the reach of any IR signals...I currently control it with a bluetooth remote, and I'm assuming the XBONE doesn't have the option to connect via Bluetooth to my TiVo...

  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    Probably not Trackzero.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    Consoles were barely starting to scratch the online itch back then, and they are still not the go to machine for going online for anything but multiplayer and maybe video streaming (though the options for that are endless).

    Actually, Netflix's popularity can be directly attributed to people using it via XBox, PS3 and even the Wii. I also imagine on average that people use more bandwidth on a console than they do on a PC.

    But just so we're clear, you have two machines that are connected to your local WiFi, your laptop and your Console (or many consoles), but with the PC it's implied that you will eventually use the internet, so it's okay for Steam to force a check because a laptop is an "internet machine" (although sales of Google Chromebooks would clearly prove that the general public doesn't feel that way), but it's not implied that game console does despite the fact that millions use it for things like Netflix, connect to PSN and XBL by default when powering up, buy games through it, etc.? Wow.

    Just keep splitting those hairs.

    But neither of this changes the fact that MS never introduced an "Always Online" policy which is all I was commenting on.

  • PoomerPoomer ColoradoRegistered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @Gungan
    10 years ago Steam was actually not an online market. It was actually a chat, anti-cheat, and anti-piracy system. I still remember buying my physical copies of games like Half-Life 2 on CD and having to install them to Steam (which also came on the CD if you didn’t have internet). At the time it was optional, but good luck not getting kicked from a Counter-Strike server without Steam running.

    That physical function of Steam has never gone away. You can still go buy a physical copy of a Steam hosted game and install ‘offline’ on your computer to Steam. Steam verifies that you have a license once, I believe, and will then let you play the game even when you’ve not paid your internet bill in 3 months.

    2005, two years after the official release, is when Steam really started turning into a digital market place.

    Aside: on the under $10 piece, my library also used to be small. But then I found Humble, and now I have so many games some may never get played, even by the hands of my yet to be born children.

    Poomer on
  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @SIDDOWN

    When you go to check your email, browse the web, hit up social media, do online banking, check movie showtimes, etc, do you go on your console? No. You go on your computer, smartphone or tablet. That's the difference between an internet device, and just having online access. Console experiences online are very specific and limited, and most of the internet is completely hidden from the user (you don't have to browse to Netflix.com, you just load the app).

    I don't automatically log into PSN when my PS3 or Vita boots up. I don't automatically log into Steam when my PC boots up either. People set it automatically because they're lazy, not because they are actively going online. When they move the console to an internet free area, that automatic login doesn't suddenly prevent them from playing their games (multiplayer excepted) because it can't find big brother.

    Using bandwidth consumption as a gauge is pretty stupid btw. Of course video and downloading games are going to use more bandwidth. Watching 1 movie is going to use more bandwidth than about 100 other things you can do online put together, but it's still just 1 movie. Time spent active online would be a more accurate measure.

    Gungan on
  • Casey ReeceCasey Reece Registered User regular
    @Taznak: "Your last post sounds somewhat crazy, with a conspiracy-theory feel to it; however, I can't help but kind of agree with it."

    Which, when you let that rest and sink in, is truly terrifying.

    ---

    What I really can't come to terms with is how casually everyone is treating their erosion of rights. By dancing around whether it's really twenty dollars or sixty dollars that they're telling us to give, we've lost sight of the fact that we have absolutely zero power or any seat at the table at all with regards to the fees they'll be adding in.

    You, me, all of us don't have any seat at the table any more. The idea isn't to pay a set amount for anything any more. How much will it cost? Depends on how much people like it. If it's popular - expect an endless daisy chain of paid upgrades to take the place of what, at one point in time, used to be the actual game. It's not so much a question of wondering how much content a game has, as much as it is fearing it.

    And it's like, "Business as usual guys!" They have tons of teams in their gigantic corporate fortress, devoting all their time hunched over their workbench adding fee-structures to traditional game-play elements, and pontificating in their higher chambers of esteemed associates just how high the maximum price you can associate with a title is, and whether or not the assumption should just be that it's infinite. Cast a plague of skinner-boxes into every corner of the realm - watch an entertainment format get mauled with the chunky club of gambling, with all of its spikes of addiction sticking out.

    "Guys! There's just money everywhere here! Our customer's wallets are technically endless, if we can just combine the talents of a ninja with that of a best friend who lovingly encourages you to do stupid things, we can sneak endless amounts of cash out of a medium that's no longer being guarded with that pesky "sticker price." Games? Our loyal customers are the game. They're not playing our games - they're in our game. It's called, "The Price is Right." The price being, of course, made entirely of our whimsy."

  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    Nicely put CASEY. I even felt entertained by your discourse reading that.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    Gungan wrote:
    I don't automatically log into PSN when my PS3 or Vita boots up. I don't automatically log into Steam when my PC boots up either.

    But 10s of millions of other people do.

    You also don't buy mobile games, but the rest of the world does. This has been discussed before, if we lived in a world that was "only what Gungan wants", it'd be incredibly boring. You hate everything. :)

  • signsofrainsignsofrain Registered User new member
    Mr. Alan, you either need an editor, or a better editor:

    "The Xbox One has always been an ambitious platform. Microsoft wanted to create a truly digital platform but inept messaging and instant player backlash urged them to drop that plan."

    So clumsy! Their inept messaging wasn't urging them to do anything :P Try this:

    "With XBox one, Microsoft's ambition was to create an all-digital sales ecosystem. In an ill-fated public unveiling, Microsoft announced that Xbox One games could now only be played or re-sold at the sole discretion of the publisher. Somewhat understandably, this enraged gamers the world over, and in the face of massive public backlash, Microsoft quickly reversed course."

    "The last few months have been damage control"
    Ugh, try:
    "During the past few months, Microsoft has been engaged in damage control operations"

    "and of course, the get the oddly complex three-part OS system had to become operational."
    Jeezus Christ, did you not even proof this once?! First of all, 'OS' stands for 'operating system' so you don't say 'operating system system'. Secondly, this is barely english. Try:
    "and of course, continued work on maintaining and extending the operating system"


    "I’ve had a system in my home for a pretty good amount of time, although many of the system's marquee features have only just been added. I went from being skeptical of the new Kinect to not minding the little bugger sitting under my television, and now that I’m used to how it works and what it does I find it hard to live without it."

    Ugh, no no no.
    "While I've had an XBox One in my home for several weeks, it was not until the Day 1 update was released, (enabling a host of new features) that I could truly get a sense of just how useful the Kinect could be, and now that it's here I would find it hard to live without it!


    Up your game Mr. Alan, just because this is the web doesn't mean you should write a high school essay. Put some effort into it!








  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    Yeah, those mobile games are doing an awesome job shining a positive light on video games as an artistic medium. /sarcasm

    I hardly hate everything. I only hate things that are exploitative and/or poor quality.

  • SiddownSiddown Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    What I really can't come to terms with is how casually everyone is treating their erosion of rights.

    Its a good conversation to have, but it should be had about all medium, not just pulled out and used as a club to beat down one specific product when it becomes convenient.

    Like I said to @gungan, too many people apply their morals only when it fits their narrative about who they like and hate. We like Valve, so we give them a pass, we hate Microsoft so we don't despite the fact they do the same thing...in fact, Valve's new library sharing is much more "draconian" than Microsoft's ever was, it requires 24/7 online to participate in, MS only required once every 24 hours check in. In a completely rational sense, Valve's rules are much stricter, yet they get a complete pass.

    People just need to be consistent. If someone is okay with an erosion of rights for steam, they have to be okay with it for Microsoft. Sorry, they just do, or they can't be taken seriously.

    That isn't a value judgement about what side of the argument is right, I'm just saying people need to be consistent in their arguments.

    Siddown on
2
Sign In or Register to comment.