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The PA Report - Forza 5 is next-gen where it counts, but frustrating due to lack of tracks

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin

imageThe PA Report - Forza 5 is next-gen where it counts, but frustrating due to lack of tracks

There is no real campaign to speak of, instead there are simply series of races that focus on different collections of cars. You race, you earn credits, you buy more cars, and you race some more. You can tackle the races in any order, although you’ll have to spend some time saving your credits and grinding the races to pay for the most expensive cars.

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  • TiberiusEsuriensTiberiusEsuriens Registered User regular
    Drivatars sounded so stupid when annouced, but every article talking about them sounds like they actually work. Hopefully someone is going to find a way to incorporate the tech into other types of games. I'd love to see unusual strategies, or even real teamwork, done in space combat or even shooters. Games like Battlefront that have so many players and NPCs on the field would benefit a ton from varying up the AI.

  • BrinkmanBrinkman Registered User regular
    Can't wait for them to release them in DLC making the game total well over $120 lol.

    It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. -Thomas Jefferson
  • metroidkillahmetroidkillah Local Bunman Free Country, USARegistered User regular
    @Ben Kuchera: I recall seeing something about Turn 10 releasing a free day-one download with more tracks. Is that true? If so, do you have it?

    I'm not a nice guy, I just play one in real life.
  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    Drivatars kind of remind me of the AI for Smash. As that AI learns as you play a character which then the AI shadows when playing at against it.

    Origin: DPPandaren
    Steam: pandas_gota_gun
  • dbrowdydbrowdy Registered User regular
    This game is why I decided to buy an XBone. Confirmation bias makes me happy. :)

  • phatbhudaphatbhuda Registered User regular
    Weren't there fighting games that had the exact same concept as the driveatar? You trained the virtual version of yourself by playing and set it loose on other people?

  • Dorkmaster FlekDorkmaster Flek Registered User regular
    @drunkenpandaren Wait, one of the Smash Bros. games did this? I'm not aware of any game that has done really adaptive AI like this before. This is actually one of the coolest features of the game to me.

  • SomeguitaristSomeguitarist Registered User regular
    @Dbrowdy- See, as much as I want to play this, I just can't bring myself to support anyone that's going to be nickel and dime-ing me the whole way. I haven't bought either console yet as I'm a PC gamer at heart, but it seems like the Xbone is just prone to have more games that do this at the moment. Forza, Powerstar Golf, and Killer Instinct.

    Sidenote; I know there's another article on this on the front page, it's just that with each game review I'm seeing more 'I slipped them a few dollars here and there'. I just want to pay for my stupid game and then leave my wallet alone!

  • SomeguitaristSomeguitarist Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Oddly triple posted. Can a mod delete these last two?

    Someguitarist on
  • SomeguitaristSomeguitarist Registered User regular
    @Dbrowdy- See, as much as I want to play this, I just can't bring myself to support anyone that's going to be nickel and dime-ing me the whole way. I haven't bought either console yet as I'm a PC gamer at heart, but it seems like the Xbone is just prone to have more games that do this at the moment. Forza, Powerstar Golf, and Killer Instinct.

    Sidenote; I know there's another article on this on the front page, it's just that with each game review I'm seeing more 'I slipped them a few dollars here and there'. I just want to pay for my stupid game and then leave my wallet alone!

  • PyrianPyrian Registered User regular
    So, basically almost everything AAA is pay-to-pay now?

  • lostedenlosteden Registered User regular
    I'm curious, Ben, what kind of games are you best at?

  • dbrowdydbrowdy Registered User regular
    @Someguitarist: I prefer to think of it like Rock Band. If they provide a complete experience that's worth the price of admission ($60 in this case), the DLC can all be judged on its own merits. I don't begrudge spending an extra dollar or two for a song I love because I don't have this "It should have been included in the original game!" mentality. I mean, there are THOUSANDS of songs they could have chosen; they can't put them all in the initial release. I prefer to think of the cars and tracks the same way.

    Based on the reviews I've read, the game should be worth the $60 in its release state. If that's the case, the question on whether to spend money on more cars/tracks becomes much more simple. Would I spend $10 for Nurburgring? $5? $15? That's the only question. I don't have to go "$60 AND $10 for something that should have been included to begin with??" if I feel like the $60 was worth it.

    Don't know if I explained that well, but yeah.

  • TaboriHKTaboriHK Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    "Still, when you find a car you enjoy, and you're racing against the virtual representations of your friends and the light spills across your dashboard a certain way and you get lost in the graphics… it's hard to care about these nits."

    But, these nits are that there are hardly any tracks and some of the cars are priced to spend extra on. Is this how they're going to sell us on the transition? Dazzle us with graphics so that we'll eventually buy things piecemeal without complaint?

    TaboriHK on
  • HeadhunterHeadhunter Registered User regular
    I'm really excited to try this tomorrow, Forza 5 looks like the most polished and consistently impressive game among the slate of next gen launch titles.

    "Perception is reality." -unknown
  • Casey ReeceCasey Reece Registered User regular
    Killer Instinct only has six characters - Forza only has 14 tracks. It's like they're getting us used to getting way less for $60 bucks. And then paying even more for the rest afterwards.

    Feeling like I just got very little isn't a very good incentive to make me pay more. The more I hear about this system, the more I feel like its designed by Microsoft to completely upend everything we're used to having. Decently priced games. No transactions peppered around like flowers in a field. Actual full games at release.

    What are people supposed to walk away from here feeling happy about? Just having spent an extra $100 so they'll have the option to pay an extra $40 on top of their already $60 purchases?

    Are these guys for real?

  • dbrowdydbrowdy Registered User regular
    KI is $20, not $60.

  • ZNemesisZNemesis Registered User new member
    "the truly talented racers know the best lines and they understand exactly when to break"

    I'm sure you meant "brake".

  • BrohameBrohame Registered User regular
    New console titles... 1st gen as it were... are always like this. People are currently buying and happily playing games they would spit on and throw out the window if the same thing were presented to them in the middle of the consoles lifecycle. They are more excited about the potential of the games and the system that the games play on than quality right now.

    I've seen this happen over and over again.

  • BrohameBrohame Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @ZNemesis

    Maybe he meant breaking the sound barrier. Or break dance. Or go for a Bathroom Break. Or when to pause the game to watch another Breaking Bad episode. Or maybe they know exactly when to break out the champagne for a victory lap.

    Brohame on
  • JD JacksonJD Jackson Registered User regular
    @DBROWDY

    Agreed, but at the same time I also wonder if they aren't purposefully putting less into the full game so they can sell it to you later as DLC. All new games are $60, so a few tracks isn't going to make the difference between being worth it or not. Since the previous Forza had twice the tracks, it seems suspicious to me. The game still sounds worth the price, but I can't help feeling a little bit screwed. (Not me personally - I'm not likely to have an Xbox One for years. Still on just an original Wii right now.)

  • Titanium DragonTitanium Dragon Registered User regular
    The system doesn't sound much like it is actually "crowdsourcing" AI; more, it sounds like it is simply tweaking some variables inside the AI based on your and others' racing, or possibly just tacking your name onto an AI of about the same skill level as you possess.

  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    If it's crowdsourcing the AI, do the drivatars ever ram you to slow down at corners or cut across grass because they think it's quicker?

  • motigistmotigist Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    >> It’s odd to think about, but the racers begin to feel more mechanical as you move up the difficulty

    Yes, as do human opponents. High-level opponents in any game/sport always feel exceptionally machine-like in their movements, because they are. Because how much of the motions is translated into reflexes makes all the difference. Their mind is free to handle rare high-level stuff that can't be handled automatically (or produce unbelievable amounts of trash-talk that seems to have zero effect on their performance, as it often happens).

    motigist on
  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    @JD_JACKSON They've been fairly candid that the issue with tracks and cars is that they had to remodel everything for the new engine. Some of the car models from Forza 4 they were able to transfer over because they were bleeding edge when it was released so they only needed some updates, but mot needed full rescans.

    The same thing happened to the tracks. Each one is being laser scanned to avoid the issues that they've had in the past. Their Nurburgring is notorious for being too wide and open, which is probably why they axed it. The other tracks being gone does hurt a bit, but it's a new game in a completely new engine. There's no way they could drop the content in. If they did, people would still bitch about the quality. Look at Gran Tourismo. Some of their models date back to GT3, and it constantly gets brought up.

  • CaptainPlanet420CaptainPlanet420 Registered User new member
    edited November 2013
    @Casey Reece,

    You know how when an old phonograph needle gets stuck in a scratched groove and keeps on playing the same 2 seconds of music until you hit it?

    That's what you're doing. Please stop. It's just constant KI or Forza or really just XB1 ignorant bashing with you. I seriously made an account because on TOP of wearing blinders, you seem to be spreading all sorts of misinformation. The internet is full of that, but you're the lucky one I decided to single out.

    I'll start with your Killer Instinct mudslinging. FIRST off, it's $20 for the full current roster of fighters, 2 upcoming fighters, and presumably all future updates made to the core game. This means an Arcade mode, maybe the addition of lobbies, things like that. Or of course, you can play for free. But you're complaining over a $20 work in progress? Is that considered gross amounts of cash these days? I'll put it this way, it's a third of the cost of a normal "full" game. Would you be okay with the game including 24 fighters and being more fleshed out, but the price point being $60? And that being the ONLY way to buy it?

    They're giving gamers more choice. Choice is good. PLUS, it's an arcade/free to play game. The standards are a bit different wouldn't you say?

    On to Forza 5. Yes you're right about one thing, it has been scaled back, but could you think of any reason why a passionate developer like Turn 10 might've done this, BESIDES the tired "milkin' it" mantra? It's quality over quantity, that's it. As others have said, the game has tons more content coming in the future, and while this is NOT ideal, what's coming is top shelf stuff. Turn 10 would rather spend their time, money, and effort rescanning tracks or remodeling cars than push out used assets like a thrift store. That's something you WANT in an artist, be it a musician, director, author, game dev, whatever!

    You act as if only Microsoft is at fault here. As if only Microsoft has microtransactions and squeezes the sweet moneyjuices out of you. But wait, how many FTP games did the PS4 launch with? Oh, a few? Mkay. How much is Knack, probably the worst reviewed game of the next-gen so far? $60? Yeah. Wow. (Before you start about Lococycle, it's a third of the price. Sure it might be a meh game, but you're paying FAR less.)

    I just don't understand the hand-wringing. Neither next-gen launch is spectacular, both can barely say they are even GOOD. But to get hung up on some of the most promising games of the launch so far? I don't get it. Be more upset with Sony for having it's only great game be a horizontal shmup. It's a fine (and gorgeous) game to be sure, but.....that's it.

    CaptainPlanet420 on
  • GunganGungan Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @ZNEMESIS & BROHAME

    Pretty sure he meant "make a break for it", as in attempt to pass someone.

    Gungan on
  • JD JacksonJD Jackson Registered User regular
    @Farmer 42

    Fair enough. I don't play racing games anyway and have certainly never played more than 5 or 6 tracks on one, I probably shouldn't be commenting. :p

  • paco_pepepaco_pepe Registered User regular
    Man this game is so pretty.....i wish i liked the more "sim" style racers.......ill just keep hoping for a Burnout Paradise 2 with this level of detail.
    (its never happening, right?)

    Paco+Pepper.png
  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    @PACO_PEPE Well, since that team has split up, look at NFS Rivals and whatever the next Forza Horizon has on tap. That's where most of them ended up.

  • Casey ReeceCasey Reece Registered User regular
    @CaptainPlanet420: Perhaps I'm the residue of every error they've ever committed that is unfairly bringing up past mistakes at every turn, my actions can easily portray this, no doubt. However, I doubt this. Having known Microsoft since they first started forcing people to use Internet Explorer, my experience with this entity that propelled the human race forward is somewhat complicated.

    I like the prospects of who they are and what they can do. In fact, I'm always cheering them on for the "I hope they can . . ." contingent. But the actual reality of how they've treated . . . well, everyone since they've entered the market, really sets the standard for indifference and narrow-mindedness. From a vast constituency of their past failed projects, it's easy to mistake Microsoft for someone that just loves throwing a whole ton of darts at the wall hoping that they'll stick. But truth is, they've had a dose of the most powerful feeling a market can provide: a monopoly that spreads around the globe like wildfire, and they haven't struck me since as an entity that wishes to go for less.

    That's why you'll always see these Microsoft specific gardens pop up. I don't know how many tablets, hand-sets, phones, or what have you that went down that road. But it went down that road for a reason. If you see a walled garden that's none too walled - you start noticing potential profits leaking out. That's not Microsoft's style. In fact, that's why they're going for the wall-heavy approach. More wall means more money.

    So, now we've seen them acquire a "somewhat" successful "heavy-garden" in comparison to their original break-out. The X-Box was planned as a project that was going to last for decades. They wanted in on your living room from day one - and they knew exactly what they were going to do when they got there. Now, even without a full monopoly, Microsoft still believes they have enough control over their portion of the market to begin instituting changes that . . .

    Eliminate my ownership. Force me to sell my digital purchases to them. Have my machine verify that I'm actually me. None of these things are game changers - in that they change the actual games we play - which is the reason we buy these machines to begin with. They're just more ways of choking every last nickel out of an already established routine while simultaneously rewriting the routine so that it produces even more nickels.

    Yeah, you're right, I do keep going back to this. Something just doesn't sit right. Like, I've weathered storms in the gaming past before, but this one just feels different. It feels like an evil. Usually my own response to these kinds of things is "wait and see," but it's kind of hard to do that when the way your gut is reacting to the vibe is to slam-pack a suitcase and get the hell out of X-Bone territory.

    Are these points valid? Hard to predict the future. But if Microsoft's dual response of, "We're going to take away all the nice things you would've had as punishment," and, "We don't want to talk about what the other software was actually going to do," then I'm somewhat encouraged to look at Microsoft's past and try to gather their preferential path.

    Three guesses to where that leads.

  • CaptainPlanet420CaptainPlanet420 Registered User new member
    @Casey Reece: Fair enough. It appears I misjudged you and you're actually an intelligent guy. Or at the very least, an android that is VERY good at impersonating human intelligence ;)

    I can understand feeling a bit, well....taken advantage of by Microsoft. Their track record is far from spotless that's for sure. They might have helped revolutionize the computing world with one damn fine OS but what happened after they got there? Yes, like you've said, they're a bit complicated. I won't argue that.

    But I WOULD argue that the same goes for all corporations. Especially technologically-focused corporations. I've heard all sorts of bad news about Sony from back in the PS2 era. People worship Apple, but they consistently put insane premiums on all of their products (and have one helluva walled garden). Google? They're relatively new, but they've already started making all sorts of power plays that are far from sportsmanlike.

    So while MS likes to wall their consumers off or try and build brand devotion, many other companies do likewise. And I think the MS we are seeing right now is a whole different beast than what we've seen in the past. For better or worse, I believe they are truly trying to innovate and drive that ever changing landscape further forward into Tomorrowland. Windows 8 was a pretty bold step that is trying to blend the worlds of tablet and desktop. We all know this will EVENTUALLY happen one day, in some form. MS are simply trying to pave the way. Will it succeed, was it a good enough step? We'll see. Same with Windows Phone 8. It's a fantastic mobile operating system and provides a great alternative to a completely enclosed Apple world and a sometimes fragmented Android world. It's got growing pains to be sure, but the foundation is there. It's simple, intuitive, attractive, and just plain refreshing.

    Xbox One? From what people are saying, the new Kinect has some amazing potential, and the multimedia is well implemented, but yet again, it needs time to grow.

    I'll stop the gushing now. I really don't think everything MS is gold, truly. WP8 needs 8.1 yesterday, Xbox One needs the Kinect to be more accurate. The messages they are putting out are so convoluted it would make anyone grab the ibuprofen. And yes, they've tried some questionable stuff. The protocols you mention, like the "digital only games" and well, basically all the planned policies for the Xbox One....to put it simply, they're rushing it. I'm not sure if there's anything sinister about it, but they ARE trying too hard. I can see what they're thinking, Steam has been massively successful and life as we know it is becoming more digital and less physical, but it's just too soon. There still is a barrier between the living room and the desktop work/game-station, and perhaps it's best for it to stay up a little while longer.

    But perhaps I'm being naïve. I sincerely hope that MS has their collective hearts in the right place and that they're NO longer bent on world domination, but simply success THROUGH innovation. But I can't say. I might be horribly wrong.

    For now though, I'll wait and see. The times are a-changin'. Switching back to consoles for a second, they both seem underwhelming. The most interesting thing now is watching the two separate strategies pan out. Sony is sticking to what works, and MS wants to try something new. If I had to guess, MS is trying so hard because they are scared of Apple making some sort of Jesus console and taking over, just like they did with iPhone. Or maybe it's the Steambox?

    Anyway. It's late and I might have gone off the rails a bit. But hey. It's been nice having a bit of a dialogue. sorry if I ever went off too much in that first post. So I'll say HEY. Well met, sir. Once again, I'm hoping for the best this generation. That includes both parties. And Nintendo can come too. Cheers :)

  • hoppie00hoppie00 Registered User regular
    Re; Forza FTP/Microtransactoins. We really shouldn't put up with this.

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-23-whens-a-free-to-play-game-not-free-to-play

  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    You know, microtransactions for cars have been in games since the launch of the last generation. NFS:MW had them. COmplaining now like they're new seems somewhat silly.

  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    Also, and I hate to double post, but I have yet to hit any cash flow issues in Forza. I've bought two super cars, and I've only done two dozen races. That really isn't grindy.

  • metroidkillahmetroidkillah Local Bunman Free Country, USARegistered User regular
    @Farmer42: Does the game also make manufacturer upgrades free after a certain amount of racing? That was a thing in FM4 that made getting cars a lot easier.

    Also: What about the rumored free day-one DLC? Is it or is it not a thing?

    I'm not a nice guy, I just play one in real life.
  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    Upgrades aren't free, but the affinity bonuses instead make it so you earn extra cash every single race. You also get bonus cash every time you level up your driver level. On top of that, your Drivatar is ALSO earning money while your console is off. So there are many revenue streams.

    As for Day One DLC, it's an art heavy games so yes, there is a car pack at launch. That's the way of things. There is only so much time they can drop content into the game before they have to put a bow on it and call it a day. None of the cars in the car pack feel necessary or omitted.

  • metroidkillahmetroidkillah Local Bunman Free Country, USARegistered User regular
    @Farmer42: I didn't mean the question as an accusation. But, since Mr. Kuchera didn't mention it, I was wondering the details. I was under the impression a free pack of tracks would be made available upon the game's release due to publishing/time restrictions.

    I'm not going to harp on pay-for Day-One DLC or Season Passes- especially in this case. You get the pass, you get the cars. The content cannot, under any circumstance, be less than what you should reasonably expect.

    I'm not a nice guy, I just play one in real life.
  • KlynnKlynn Registered User new member
    "the truly talented racers know the best lines and they understand exactly when to *break* and how to take each turn."

    Really, Ben? :-(

  • Farmer42Farmer42 Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    @METROIDKILLA No worries. I wasn't trying to be really defensive, and I'm sorry if I came off that way. It's just a lot of people forget that the art and asset teams are different from the main dev team, so in games where Art is a major aspect Day One DLC usually is the result of time constraints more than anything else. Games have to go gold at some point and you have to move your main test team over, so things that were being wrapped up either get cut or rolled into DLC plans. If you look at the Laferrari car pack, none of the cars really fill a hole, with the exception of the flagship. I'm willing to bet most of the cars were ones that were intended to be in launch got pushed back in favor of other cars.

    No tracks yet, but we do know that Turn 10 has been working on the Nurburgring. I've done some laser scanning before. It isn't really fun and it's very time consuming. And I was just doing the grunt work. I don't imagine what they're doing is easy.

    Farmer42 on
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