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America: A Christian country, or the Christianist?

siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
edited April 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Kauser wrote: »
Kauser wrote: »
The only force I see giving the raspberry would conceivably be the French Foreign Legion.

Don't get me started on that group of psychopaths.

Also one of the finest military forces in the world. Is it because they're psychopaths that they're so elite, or does being elite make them psychopaths?


It's because their recuiting policy encourages psychopaths to sign up. They take in pretty much anyone who got drummed out of other military organizations for whatever reason, no questions asked.

If firing on anything that moves in the desert (friend or foe) makes you elite, then I guess you can't get any better than these guys.

What?

How about you research what you're talking about other than glancing at a cover of Soldier of Fortune and calling it good. That might have been true 60 years ago, but nowadays if you got drummed out of another nation's service, you have about no chance of getting in. The Legion is as professional as it is elite, but its also made up of tough motherfuckers who are about as hard as woodpecker lips.

Go grind your axe somewhere else.
Sure, there are some Christians I see on TV that have some pretty nutty ideas, but none that I have seen even comes CLOSE to rising to the level of these Muslim fanatics. So be very careful when bandying about this comparisons, it doesn't help your argument.

Obviously you don't remember when these fuckers were blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors in the 90s, or the comments made immediately after 9/11. Go Youtube "Jesusland" and then come back here and tell me this. We have our own homegrown Taliban, except they're clean shaven and wear suits and are slightly more subtle than the mullahs across the sea.

siliconenhanced on
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  • SargeSmashSargeSmash Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kauser wrote: »
    Kauser wrote: »
    The only force I see giving the raspberry would conceivably be the French Foreign Legion.

    Don't get me started on that group of psychopaths.

    Also one of the finest military forces in the world. Is it because they're psychopaths that they're so elite, or does being elite make them psychopaths?


    It's because their recuiting policy encourages psychopaths to sign up. They take in pretty much anyone who got drummed out of other military organizations for whatever reason, no questions asked.

    If firing on anything that moves in the desert (friend or foe) makes you elite, then I guess you can't get any better than these guys.

    What?

    How about you research what you're talking about other than glancing at a cover of Soldier of Fortune and calling it good. That might have been true 60 years ago, but nowadays if you got drummed out of another nation's service, you have about no chance of getting in. The Legion is as professional as it is elite, but its also made up of tough motherfuckers who are about as hard as woodpecker lips.

    Go grind your axe somewhere else.
    Sure, there are some Christians I see on TV that have some pretty nutty ideas, but none that I have seen even comes CLOSE to rising to the level of these Muslim fanatics. So be very careful when bandying about this comparisons, it doesn't help your argument.

    Obviously you don't remember when these fuckers were blowing up abortion clinics and killing doctors in the 90s, or the comments made immediately after 9/11. Go Youtube "Jesusland" and then come back here and tell me this. We have our own homegrown Taliban, except they're clean shaven and wear suits and are slightly more subtle than the mullahs across the sea.

    Yeah, okay, how many abortion clinics were bombed? How many people were actually involved? We sit here and spout all day about how it's a small minority of Muslims that take part in this stuff, yet you're not willing to give the same benefit of the doubt to Christians? The list on wikipedia is actually surprisingly small. No question, they're nuts, but trying to lump everyone into that category is about the most intellectually dishonest thing I've seen.

    And I watched that video. I just love it when quotes are given context free. That's always a great way to make points. I could quote liberals all day, or anyone, for that matter, and make them sound like whatever I want to if I supply the context. The end, in particular, shows where the true sympathies of the video producer lie. Yes, innocent people get hurt. What do you think 9/11 was? Do you think innocent people DON'T get hurt in wars? What about the terrorists that blow their own people up, on purpose? They don't give a rat's behind about women or children. How do we know that those pictures are not from terrorist bombs? Hmm? Remember, they're not above lying to "the infidels".

    Seriously, get a grip. I'd say at least 30% of the Muslim population support terrorism in some way, and the rest (except for a small few) sit idly by with no condemnation. I dare say that if you conducted a similar poll of Christians, you would find the numbers closer to a hundredth of a percent, and condemnation from almost every corner of the faith.

    That video also overlooks one key point: This nation WAS founded on Christian principles, and the founding fathers were Christians. Somehow, I don't think it was their intent to remove every vestige of faith from the public arena.

    While I calm down a bit (you know, the whole crazy evangelical Christian thing)... Iran is full of s***. At least almost everyone in this thread got that part right.

    Sarge out.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    Seriously, get a grip. I'd say at least 30% of the Muslim population support terrorism in some way, and the rest (except for a small few) sit idly by with no condemnation.

    You'd be wrong. Most South East Asians don't support the sectarian violence, as far as I've heard.

    I'm ignoring all the other stuff, because I have better things to do then to explain to you why your anti-Muslim stance is somewhat misguided.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    And I watched that video. I just love it when quotes are given context free. That's always a great way to make points. I could quote liberals all day, or anyone, for that matter, and make them sound like whatever I want to if I supply the context. The end, in particular, shows where the true sympathies of the video producer lie. Yes, innocent people get hurt. What do you think 9/11 was? Do you think innocent people DON'T get hurt in wars? What about the terrorists that blow their own people up, on purpose? They don't give a rat's behind about women or children. How do we know that those pictures are not from terrorist bombs? Hmm? Remember, they're not above lying to "the infidels".

    Seriously, get a grip. I'd say at least 30% of the Muslim population support terrorism in some way, and the rest (except for a small few) sit idly by with no condemnation. I dare say that if you conducted a similar poll of Christians, you would find the numbers closer to a hundredth of a percent, and condemnation from almost every corner of the faith.*
    *Source: Sarge's ass, pulled out of; April 3, 2007.
    That video also overlooks one key point: This nation WAS founded on Christian principles, and the founding fathers were Christians. Somehow, I don't think it was their intent to remove every vestige of faith from the public arena.
    For fuck's sake, I swear, every time someone invokes the Founding Fathers in defense of their position, it makes me want to beat the hell out of them with a copy of The Federalist Papers.

    Some of the Founding Fathers were Christians. Others claimed to be deists, while others, I'm sure, were probably closet atheists. And to claim the nation was founded on "Christian principles" is pretty retarded, when the Bible is pretty clear about that whole "having no god other than me" thing, contrary to the enshrining of freedom of religion in the first amendment. I mean, really, the first amendment breaks the first commandment; can you really argue that there is a Christian basis for the Constitution when the most important amendment breaks the most important commandment?

    And on the "remove every vestige of faith from the public arena" point, Thomas Jefferson wrote about a "wall of separation" between religion and government, so if the Founding Fathers had the kind of hive mind you seem to attribute to them, that must be how they all felt, right?

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    This country was founded on Lockean principals, not Christian ones. In fact, I would say that this country was founded completely in defiance of Christian principals. All men created equal? No national Church? What Christian nation of the time would accept either of these ideas? If you're going to be an idiot, be one about something you know, like the bible.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Thanatos wrote: »
    For fuck's sake, I swear, every time someone invokes the Founding Fathers in defense of their position, it makes me want to beat the hell out of them with a copy of The Federalist Papers.

    I am imagining the Bourne Supremacy, but with official documents.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • SargeSmashSargeSmash Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Some say Thomas Jefferson was a deist. Maybe, maybe not.

    I'm not saying they were all alike. When did I say that? I'm just saying we were founded on Christian principles, despite an attempt to rewrite history.

    Look, once again, forgetting context is what gets us in these arguments. Does anyone remember WHY many of the colonists left Britain? It was for free exercise of religion. They had a state church in England (the Anglican church), and there was no room for dissent. When they talk of separation of church and state, THIS is what they are referring to. They didn't want their religious freedom taken again, where they HAD to worship according to the bylaws of the "official" church.

    And where in the Bible does it say that all men are NOT created equal? And for that matter, where does it mandate a national church? The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, is not at all at odds with Locke's principles. I didn't say that they took EVERYTHING from the Bible. That's why I said principles. It's not like they were looking to recreate Jewish society. And why resort to name calling? Putdowns don't help your argument any.

    For God's sake, I'm not saying kick out all the other religions. And I'm certainly not anti-Muslim. But I know quite a few, and while some are very level-headed, normal people, quite a few others are not exactly of sound mind. I suggest looking at polling data that shows sentiments in various countries about how various Muslim populations feel about suicide bombings, how they adore Osama bin Laden, and other such data. You can even use your favorite source, wikipedia.

    I just love how people don't argue any more, they just call something idiotic, or jump to conclusions, or whatnot. Maybe I did the same thing. But after seeing the post equating evangelicals to the radical Islamic fundamentalists, and watching that video, I think something had to be said.

    So, would an atheistic society above all else be any better? I personally don't think so, because it tends to be as intolerant as many religions, including some Christians.

    Sarge out.

  • KauserKauser Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Hey, great of you both to buy into the revisionist history behind this nations founding... nicely done.

    1. Puritans left Britian not to escape persecution, rather because they were so judgemental of other people over there that they were, for lack of a better word, kicked the fuck out. Frankly, our "puritan" founding is the reason this country is as fucking uptight as it is today.

    2. God in all of our documents, huh? Hey, show me where it says "God" or Christianity in the constitution. Any place is fine... I mean, if this is a Christian nation it must be in there somewhere, right? No? Wait, you mean the only reference to religion in the entire constitution is an article LIMITING ITS INVOLVEMENT with government? Yes, clearly a Christian document right there.

    3. Maybe you're referring to the Pledge of Allegiance? Clearly the founding fathers believed in God if it was in that... oh, wait... that wasn't added until 1954... hell, the thing was written by a Baptist Minister in the 1890's and God wasn't added until 1954... quite the Christian pledge there to.

    4. Or perhaps you are basing your claims on the fact that "In God We Trust" appears on our money, correct? Well, again, this didn't become an official motto until 1956, and never appeared on any money prior to the 1860's.

    So... yeah, what possible evidence do you have to say this nation was founded on Christian principals? The fact that the founding fathers believed in free will and the right of self-determination? Again, both Lockian philosophies. So, in closing... provide some evidence or stop talking.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • SargeSmashSargeSmash Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Hey, great of you both to buy into the revisionist history behind this nations founding... nicely done.

    1. Puritans left Britian not to escape persecution, rather because they were so judgemental of other people over there that they were, for lack of a better word, kicked the fuck out. Frankly, our "puritan" founding is the reason this country is as fucking uptight as it is today.

    2. God in all of our documents, huh? Hey, show me where it says "God" or Christianity in the constitution. Any place is fine... I mean, if this is a Christian nation it must be in there somewhere, right? No? Wait, you mean the only reference to religion in the entire constitution is an article LIMITING ITS INVOLVEMENT with government? Yes, clearly a Christian document right there.

    3. Maybe you're referring to the Pledge of Allegiance? Clearly the founding fathers believed in God if it was in that... oh, wait... that wasn't added until 1954... hell, the thing was written by a Baptist Minister in the 1890's and God wasn't added until 1954... quite the Christian pledge there to.

    4. Or perhaps you are basing your claims on the fact that "In God We Trust" appears on our money, correct? Well, again, this didn't become an official motto until 1956, and never appeared on any money prior to the 1860's.

    So... yeah, what possible evidence do you have to say this nation was founded on Christian principals? The fact that the founding fathers believed in free will and the right of self-determination? Again, both Lockian philosophies. So, in closing... provide some evidence or stop talking.

    Is that all you are looking at? The Constitution? I thought we were supposed to look at everything. After all, that's where the separation of church and state comes in, right? That's not in the Constitution, either. Read the transcripts. Read their papers. There are innumerable references to "the Creator", "Almighty God", and so forth.

    Also might like to point out that you manage to completely contradict yourself in both point 1 and 2. If we were founded by a bunch of Puritans that were "f***ing uptight", then wouldn't that make us a Christian nation? Somehow I don't think that would persist if most of the founders WEREN'T Christian. So which is it?

    And of course there's something in there about religion. It's to limit a church from governing. Theocracy = BAD. But that does NOT preclude the use of principles from said faith for governance.

    Sarge out.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    Some say Thomas Jefferson was a deist. Maybe, maybe not.

    I'm not saying they were all alike. When did I say that? I'm just saying we were founded on Christian principles, despite an attempt to rewrite history.

    Look, once again, forgetting context is what gets us in these arguments. Does anyone remember WHY many of the colonists left Britain? It was for free exercise of religion. They had a state church in England (the Anglican church), and there was no room for dissent. When they talk of separation of church and state, THIS is what they are referring to. They didn't want their religious freedom taken again, where they HAD to worship according to the bylaws of the "official" church.

    And where in the Bible does it say that all men are NOT created equal? And for that matter, where does it mandate a national church? The Bible, in particular, the New Testament, is not at all at odds with Locke's principles. I didn't say that they took EVERYTHING from the Bible. That's why I said principles. It's not like they were looking to recreate Jewish society. And why resort to name calling? Putdowns don't help your argument any.
    What, exactly is Christian about the Constitution? We have freedom of speech according to the Constitution, but we're not supposed to take the Lord's name in vain, and we're required to honor our parents according to the Bible. We have freedom of religion according to the Constitution, but we're not supposed to worship graven images, or have any god before the Christian one according to the Bible. The Bible demands we honor the Sabbath, whereas the Constitution makes no mention of it. The Bible says no adultery, the Constitution says freedom of assembly. Shit, the Constitution doesn't even mention the word "god," and last I checked, the Bible was pretty big on god. Hell, the only places it even mentions religion are article IV, where it talks about not allowing a religious test in order to hold public office, and the free exercise clause of the first amendment.

    Seemingly, the only thing in the Constitution that's even vaguely Biblical in its basis are the parts that mention--implicitly or explicitly--the practice of slavery. Which also, coincidentally, is condoned in the Bible; sort of negates that whole "created equal" thing, eh?
    For God's sake, I'm not saying kick out all the other religions. And I'm certainly not anti-Muslim. But I know quite a few, and while some are very level-headed, normal people, quite a few others are not exactly of sound mind. I suggest looking at polling data that shows sentiments in various countries about how various Muslim populations feel about suicide bombings, how they adore Osama bin Laden, and other such data. You can even use your favorite source, wikipedia.
    It's not our job to provide support for your hypothesis. Hell, I know several Muslims myself, who are all pretty stand-up people, whereas an awful lot of the Christians I know are batshit crazy. If we're going to argue based on anecdotal evidence, I mean, I'll bet you that the Christians are going to out-crazy the Muslims.
    So, would an atheistic society above all else be any better? I personally don't think so, because it tends to be as intolerant as many religions, including some Christians.
    I don't think anyone in here is arguing for an atheistic society, just a secular government.

  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kauser wrote: »
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.

    The Seal of California depicts the goddess Minerva, and the old Seal of Los Angeles included the goddess Pomona. Last I checked, California wasn't too big on following Roman laws. Our laws, like those of most all Western nations, are based on Judeo-Christian law. That does not mean that our laws are religious laws, or that our nation is founded in a religion. Also, take a good look at the founding documents and see how often they specifically made reference to the God of Abraham.

    sig-2699.jpg Iosif is friend. Come, visit friend.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    Is that all you are looking at? The Constitution? I thought we were supposed to look at everything. After all, that's where the separation of church and state comes in, right? That's not in the Constitution, either. Read the transcripts. Read their papers. There are innumerable references to "the Creator", "Almighty God", and so forth.
    So, you're saying that, in spite of all their belief, and the desire that the U.S. be a Christian nation, the Founding Fathers decided not to mention Christianity in the document that created the government?
    Also might like to point out that you manage to completely contradict yourself in both point 1 and 2. If we were founded by a bunch of Puritans that were "f***ing uptight", then wouldn't that make us a Christian nation? Somehow I don't think that would persist if most of the founders WEREN'T Christian. So which is it?
    Puritans=/=Founding Fathers.
    And of course there's something in there about religion. It's to limit a church from governing. Theocracy = BAD. But that does NOT preclude the use of principles from said faith for governance.
    The only things said about religion in the whole of the Constitution are "no establishment of religion by the government," and "no religious test to be in the government." That's it. If we're supposed to use principles of faith, why aren't they in there?

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »

    Is that all you are looking at? The Constitution? I thought we were supposed to look at everything. After all, that's where the separation of church and state comes in, right? That's not in the Constitution, either. Read the transcripts. Read their papers. There are innumerable references to "the Creator", "Almighty God", and so forth.

    Also might like to point out that you manage to completely contradict yourself in both point 1 and 2. If we were founded by a bunch of Puritans that were "f***ing uptight", then wouldn't that make us a Christian nation? Somehow I don't think that would persist if most of the founders WEREN'T Christian. So which is it?

    And of course there's something in there about religion. It's to limit a church from governing. Theocracy = BAD. But that does NOT preclude the use of principles from said faith for governance.

    Sarge out.

    Yeah, you're out all right... I looked at the Constitution because that is the principal document of this country, the one from which all laws flow. I'm sure you think it's great that Alexander Hamilton mentioned God in one of the letters he wrote to his mistress, but if that's the only support you have, then I've completely wasted my time here.

    Second, those two points don't conradict each other at all. American can still retain some puritanical values without beliving that they represent what this country was founded upon.

    In closing, just because some of the founding fathers believed in God doesn't mean that was the basis for the formation of this country. Hell, go to your priest or bishop or whomever and ask what they think of the Unitarian church... the one founded by Thomas Jefferson? See if they think that's a real religion or not.

    Sentry out.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kauser wrote: »
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.
    Christian ideas that appear in our laws:

    Don't kill people.
    Don't steal from people.

    Well, two out of ten ain't bad. I suppose if you want to go back, when adultery was illegal, it's three out of ten. And of course, no society ever thought up "don't kill people" or "don't steal from people" before the advent of Christianity. :roll:

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Kauser wrote: »
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.
    Christian ideas that appear in our laws:

    Don't kill people.
    Don't steal from people.

    Well, two out of ten ain't bad. I suppose if you want to go back, when adultery was illegal, it's three out of ten. And of course, no society ever thought up "don't kill people" or "don't steal from people" before the advent of Christianity. :roll:

    I hear the elders of the Killasteal Tribe in Uganda were considering it... but then they died.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I always thought the founding principle of America was that those who owned the land should rule it.

  • LondonBridgeLondonBridge __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I always thought the founding principle of America was that those who owned the land should rule it.

    That was before the Home Owner's Association.

  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Gorak wrote: »
    I always thought the founding principle of America was that those who owned the land should rule it.

    Manifest Destiny bitcheez! I'm pretty sure that came during the expansions of the 1800s and such. We had to show those Redmen and Messicans what was up.

    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • GorakGorak Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Malkor wrote: »
    Gorak wrote: »
    I always thought the founding principle of America was that those who owned the land should rule it.

    Manifest Destiny bitcheez! I'm pretty sure that came during the expansions of the 1800s and such. We had to show those Redmen and Messicans what was up.
    Well, they did hate your freedom so they were asking for it.



    We've got new buttons!

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    There you go... Manifest Destiny was a pretty Christian concept. You can tell because a lot of people died and we feel bad for it now.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Kauser wrote: »
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.
    Christian ideas that appear in our laws:

    Don't kill people.
    Don't steal from people.

    And that's how Christians became the most peaceful, unimposing people the world has ever seen. The End.

    MyBannerII4.jpg
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kauser wrote: »
    I agree with Sgt Smash

    Why else would we have references to God in National documents, and why are many of our laws similar to commandments? religion was a place to start, you know get the framework down. Sometimes I hear people cite Separation of Church and state in this instance, which is funny, because it doesn't stop the govermnent from having religious people in it, it just stops religious leaders from dictating policy.

    Define "many".

    Murder is illegal in every culture/nation I'm aware of, as is stealing.

    Adultery is illegal in *some* states, but is not federal issue.

    Lying under oath is illegal, but lying in general, no.

    Disrespecting your parents? Nope, legal.
    Worshipping false idols? Legal
    Other gods before God? Legal

    Shall we continue?

    There are no laws unique to our society which suggests we were taking notes from Christianity, rather than taking notes from nearly every successful nation that came before us.

  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    I'm not Christian.

    I *feel* American though.

    USA?

    U!S!A!

    Yep.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Also, does it really matter that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian (protestant, i think)? The fact that a lot of them believed in God and yet put restrictions into the Constitution that prevented the government from institutionalizing religion (despite their belief in God) shows that their forefront goal was creating not a Christian nation but one that was truly free from mandated religion.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic I've Done Worse Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Also, does it really matter that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian (protestant, i think)? The fact that a lot of them believed in God and yet put restrictions into the Constitution that prevented the government from institutionalizing religion (despite their belief in God) shows that their forefront goal was creating not a Christian nation but one that was truly free from mandated religion.

    Er...uhm...you might want to read some history. What they intended wasn't at all what we mean by separation of church and state. In England to be a member of the country you had to be a member of the Church of England at certain times. Catholic? Well you've got yourself a problem there buddy....

    That we don't abide by what they intended most of the time is a good thing.

    Trogg wrote: »
    Not as positive as AIDS and cancer, but positive nonetheless.
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Which brings up another point... why the hell do we care what the founding fathers intended anyway? I mean, they were only human... humans who lived over two centuries ago. Why is this even a point worth discussing?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Also, does it really matter that some of the Founding Fathers were Christian (protestant, i think)? The fact that a lot of them believed in God and yet put restrictions into the Constitution that prevented the government from institutionalizing religion (despite their belief in God) shows that their forefront goal was creating not a Christian nation but one that was truly free from mandated religion.

    Er...uhm...you might want to read some history. What they intended wasn't at all what we mean by separation of church and state. In England to be a member of the country you had to be a member of the Church of England at certain times. Catholic? Well you've got yourself a problem there buddy....

    That we don't abide by what they intended most of the time is a good thing.
    As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion as it has in itself no character of enmity [hatred] against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims]

    Now, this section is often overplayed as a support for secularism. Generally this is done by truncating the quote after the first use of the word religion.

    Given the whole quote, I think it still undermines the idea that the United States is a "Christian" country. If the country is not Christian in the sense that it has no emnity against other faiths, then I would suggest that while it was understood to be Christian in character because of its population, its government was not intended to have an explicitly Christian character.

  • SargeSmashSargeSmash Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    I didn't say you had to be a Christian to be American. Come on, now.

    I'm just saying that much of what this country was founded on was Christian principles, and that MOST of the founders WERE Christian.

    Somehow, even if there were deists, they are still firmly rooted in Christian principles. They just believe that God isn't meddling with us now. Even John Locke was influenced by Christianity in many of his ideas.

    I just got through saying that a theocracy is a bad thing. England had the worst of both worlds. First, the Catholic church virtually ruled, then the government imposed the Anglican church to spite the Pope, and required THAT of its citizenry. Neither were good situations, and one could say neither were Biblical in the least as well.

    Sarge out.

  • ShintoShinto __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    I didn't say you had to be a Christian to be American. Come on, now.

    I'm just saying that much of what this country was founded on was Christian principles, and that MOST of the founders WERE Christian.

    Somehow, even if there were deists, they are still firmly rooted in Christian principles. They just believe that God isn't meddling with us now. Even John Locke was influenced by Christianity in many of his ideas.

    I just got through saying that a theocracy is a bad thing. England had the worst of both worlds. First, the Catholic church virtually ruled, then the government imposed the Anglican church to spite the Pope, and required THAT of its citizenry. Neither were good situations, and one could say neither were Biblical in the least as well.

    Sarge out.

    I guess I'd say in return that I'm unsure what principles this country was founded on that are exclusively Christian.

  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited April 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    I'm not Christian.

    I *feel* American though.

    USA?

    U!S!A!

    Yep.
    You ain't fooling no one, Ivan.

    Wqdwp8l.png
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Deism is, and was, imo, just a copout for agnostics and atheists who didn't have any useful scientific data to back their ideas at the time. Deism in no way suggests belief in the Christian god, just belief that some being of some power at some point was probably responsible for putting all this together, and then he/she/it was done with this nonsense. That doesn't speak to Christian beliefs or principles in any way, and I think you are grossly mistaken in suggesting they were still rooted in Christian principles.

    If you take the personal god out of the picture, most Christian principles are just commonsense ideas that are present in most societies.

  • KauserKauser Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    I guess I'd say in return that I'm unsure what principles this country was founded on that are exclusively Christian.



    I don't think anyone threw in the "Exclusively" qualifier in any of their statements.
    ;-)

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    Shinto wrote: »
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    I didn't say you had to be a Christian to be American. Come on, now.

    I'm just saying that much of what this country was founded on was Christian principles, and that MOST of the founders WERE Christian.

    Somehow, even if there were deists, they are still firmly rooted in Christian principles. They just believe that God isn't meddling with us now. Even John Locke was influenced by Christianity in many of his ideas.

    I just got through saying that a theocracy is a bad thing. England had the worst of both worlds. First, the Catholic church virtually ruled, then the government imposed the Anglican church to spite the Pope, and required THAT of its citizenry. Neither were good situations, and one could say neither were Biblical in the least as well.

    Sarge out.

    I guess I'd say in return that I'm unsure what principles this country was founded on that are exclusively Christian.

    Give me a few minutes to add some shit up so I can tell you how many of the founding fathers were even Christian...

    Edit: Ugh, forget it. Table's got too damned much shit on it and I don't feel like re-doing it by hand.
    http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qtable.htm

    Regardless, if we legislate religion, we violate the first amendment. You can't go around saying "oh you're welcome to have whatever faith you want as long as you do it within the laws of Christianity" and actually make any sense.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    So, if I'm Christian, and I start a club that celebrates the collected works of R.L.Stien, and one of the guiding principals of the club is that you aren't allowed to kill anyone...

    Then it's a Christian club?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • SargeSmashSargeSmash Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    Which brings up another point... why the hell do we care what the founding fathers intended anyway? I mean, they were only human... humans who lived over two centuries ago. Why is this even a point worth discussing?

    Then why do we even have a Constitution in the first place, if we don't care the intent? Let's just scrap it and rewrite!

    Sarge out.

  • darthmixdarthmix Registered User
    edited April 2007
    I think the point is that if the founding fathers had intended for us to consider it important, they would've written it in the constitution.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Kauser wrote: »
    Shinto wrote: »
    I guess I'd say in return that I'm unsure what principles this country was founded on that are exclusively Christian.
    I don't think anyone threw in the "Exclusively" qualifier in any of their statements.
    ;-)
    So... if they're not exclusively Christian, then how do we know the country was founded on Christianity?

    I mean, Islam forbids murder and theft, too; clearly, we were founded as an Islamic country.

    Do either of you--Kauser or Sarge--have any examples of any principles the country was founded on that are inherently Christian in nature? You just keep claiming they are, as if it's self-evident, in spite of all the facts that point to the contrary. If it's such a clear, obvious fact, you should be able to give some clear, obvious points that support it.

  • SentrySentry Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Which brings up another point... why the hell do we care what the founding fathers intended anyway? I mean, they were only human... humans who lived over two centuries ago. Why is this even a point worth discussing?

    Then why do we even have a Constitution in the first place, if we don't care the intent? Let's just scrap it and rewrite!

    Sarge out.

    God... you are such an idiot. How do you even work a computer? The founding fathers knew they were just a bunch of old white guys who would soon be dead. That's WHY THEY MADE THE DAMN CONSTITUTION IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Not so every decision could be run through the "What Would the Founding Fathers Do" machine... but so that we could make changes based on the changing times.

    Seriously. Log off, go to school.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    wrote:
    When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
    'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited April 2007
    Sentry wrote: »
    So, if I'm Christian, and I start a club that celebrates the collected works of R.L.Stien, and one of the guiding principals of the club is that you aren't allowed to kill anyone...

    Then it's a Christian club?

    No, but if one of your rules is that you shall have no other God but Him, then it is. Or if one of your rules is that you can't be gay, or that anyone who fornicates is kicked from the club, or that no club member is allowed to buy liquor on Sunday, etc. etc. etc.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • Irond WillIrond Will Dragonmaster Cambridge. MASuper Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited April 2007
    SargeSmash wrote: »
    Sentry wrote: »
    Which brings up another point... why the hell do we care what the founding fathers intended anyway? I mean, they were only human... humans who lived over two centuries ago. Why is this even a point worth discussing?

    Then why do we even have a Constitution in the first place, if we don't care the intent? Let's just scrap it and rewrite!

    Sarge out.
    Interpreting intent isn't necessarily the same thing as inferring motivation.

    Also, people will fuck with you for signing your posts. I found this out a long time ago.

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