Quite honestly, unless faced with someone who's close to them that is a minority, they typically don't.
I went through a little experiment lately, asking some of the same questions people asked in the last trans thread to some friends of mine. We're all cis, and generally pretty laid back people in general.
The answers I received were even worse than where I initially started at on these issues. And it hit me that as someone who enjoys growing my understanding of others, that if I really want to make any sort of real change myself, I need to take anything I learn from either direct questions or reading and share it with people I care about. Not just for them, but also for their children.
Because yeah, parents don't understand. That's why these things are issues in the first place.
No I don't.
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
And this is likely to be a bit controversial of me, but, just as a prompt and a question... the message that is given is that you can't really understand what it is like to be a member of a marginalised or oppressed group if you are a member of the majority (straight/white/cis/male) because you have no frame of reference for the alternative.
Yet at the same time the onus is not on the oppressed to educate.
So where then does the onus for education come from, if straight white cis males are presumed as unable to understand the problems from a fundamental enough level to impart knowledge about it to others?
There is a lot of material online that you can read. Numerous minority blogs, papers and other stuff that can do a whole hell of a lot to educate you.
As a cis white hetero male I will never truly understand what it's like to be oppressed or a minority but I can sure as shit educate myself and do everything in my power to avoid ignorance and do my best to contribute to positive change.
Oh I agree. You do not need to have walked someone's shoes to at least empathise with their experience.
As for the knowledge side, I guess I try my best to find the information myself, even though I am neither white nor male. However it cannot be as easy as going online to read material because the internet is flooded with unhelpful and derisive shit. You could argue that maybe you should know what you're looking for and look for the right blogs to read, but I guess my point is that someone's going to have to at least try to point them in right direction.
its nobody's job or obligation to teach. there are people who get paid to do that
you're right that it's nobody's job
but generally how people learn is that someone teaches them
that's true. the onus is not on the oppressed to teach. it never will be, reconcile this and let it inform everyone it possibly fucking can
i remember being told a few times i was callous or intimidating in my personal life for not doing just that, as though it was expected of me. this has happened constantly, and hell even as a positivist christian who sort of feels obligated to act as christ would i'm also a human being with a fucking ceiling. i remember speaking to a woman of color who observed this, who'd told me she empathized on a level given people ask all these stupid fucking "as a black person do you BLANK" questions in the year 2013
i choose and others choose when to educate on a discretionary basis, and hell we're like most ordinary people, we aren't scholars and don't know everything, and we aren't right about everything. i'm well past this kind of thinking, it was never on me. i'm fucking awesome. the burden is not on me to tell you why im fucking awesome. it was always on you. if i help you, do something with it for fucks sake
I see where you're coming from in the context of this argument - i.e., some people do like to teach others about such issues and do so because they *want* to, not because they are obligated to do so or that the onus for the provision of education is on them.
But fundamentally, I disagree. There are plenty of people who ARE, or SHOULD BE obligated to teach who are not paid specifically to do so. They're called parents.
come on, now
that's being pedantic
"it's no minority's job to teach other people about the issues they face" is more like what Jane is trying to say and I know you know that
being that this entire thread has been punctuated with accusations of people being reductive
and being that a lot of the "teachers" in this case are voluntary bloggers (as stated in previous posts) without obligations to do what they do
I have absolutely NO problems throwing down that parents are - or should be - responsible for educating their kids on shit like respect for marginalised and oppressed groups, with few exceptions
minimising my argument as pedantic rather than acknowledging that any real impact or lasting change is going come from intergenerational conversations is pretty tunnel-visioned there
of course parents who are understanding of these issues are going to instill that sense in their kids. I really don't see the use in what you're saying
the problem has never been that parents who do get this stuff AREN'T teaching their kids to respect for marginalized and oppressed groups
The response of 'oh Gabe is just saying this for the company' is weird. Was there an indication that PA is having difficulties? Last I saw PAX East tickets still sold out in record time.
The response of 'oh Gabe is just saying this for the company' is weird. Was there an indication that PA is having difficulties? Last I saw PAX East tickets still sold out in record time.
I think that's just boilerplate cynicism, god forbid someone is sincere on the internet.
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
re: the conversation that was also being had about people of privilege inserting themselves into a conversation that does not include them, or getting all mad when they are not included
well, basically
you are at a bar or something having a conversation with your friends and you are enjoying in-jokes, maybe you make a provocative joke about your friend
some random dude wanders in and makes a similarly provocative joke about your friend
and let's say you guys are not okay with that and your friend's feelings are even hurt even though this random dude totally just said the same thing you did
now would you tell him to fuck off, or would you sit him down and recount the entire history of your friendship with your friend and outline exactly why the joke is only funny because you said it?
pffft no, you'd tell him to fuck off
in essence, sometimes groups just wants to talk about stuff with people they know at least sit within their context (though individual experiences vary). they don't want to have to pause the conversation to introduce someone from outside that context to every nuance and subtlety within the conversation, because shoot most of that stuff is even hard to express in words, and maybe they have better things to do with their time than worry about your wants
And this is likely to be a bit controversial of me, but, just as a prompt and a question... the message that is given is that you can't really understand what it is like to be a member of a marginalised or oppressed group if you are a member of the majority (straight/white/cis/male) because you have no frame of reference for the alternative.
Yet at the same time the onus is not on the oppressed to educate.
So where then does the onus for education come from, if straight white cis males are presumed as unable to understand the problems from a fundamental enough level to impart knowledge about it to others?
There is a lot of material online that you can read. Numerous minority blogs, papers and other stuff that can do a whole hell of a lot to educate you.
As a cis white hetero male I will never truly understand what it's like to be oppressed or a minority but I can sure as shit educate myself and do everything in my power to avoid ignorance and do my best to contribute to positive change.
Oh I agree. You do not need to have walked someone's shoes to at least empathise with their experience.
As for the knowledge side, I guess I try my best to find the information myself, even though I am neither white nor male. However it cannot be as easy as going online to read material because the internet is flooded with unhelpful and derisive shit. You could argue that maybe you should know what you're looking for and look for the right blogs to read, but I guess my point is that someone's going to have to at least try to point them in right direction.
I think the breadth of information on the internet is exactly why some people ask to be educated. You can't just go "there's the internet, figure it out yourself if you want to know so bad" without the chance of them stumbling onto a site that's full of lies or hate and having them internalize those "facts" as true. From someone who's on the outside looking in, how do they figure out what site is right without help from someone on the inside?
I just don't understand the need to be exclusionary. Why is is so important to have a pissing contest over who suffers the most, who is the most outraged, who gets hurt the most frequently or the most vitriolically?
this is a very silly mischaracterization of what's going on, and it's actually a pretty good example of why it looks to you like these conversations can be exclusionary
You personally told me it was impossible for me to understand what it was like because I wasn't the same kind of bullied as you were, I was told by Seta that I was not welcome in the conversation due to my perceived sexuality. When I pointed out the hypocrisy of a person who derides the "entitlements" of "privileged people" making demands for special privilage and entitlements I was derided that this was a "gotcha" and a weak one.
I'm not looking to undermine anyone's rights, I don't want people to get bullied for any reason. So if I appear identical to people you perceive to be attempting to undermine those rights, what is it about my argument or my way of thinking that somehow helps to regress the progress towards equality for everyone that I would like to see?
You cut out the meat of my post, where I basically was as clear as I possibly could be about no one here being pro-bullying if the victim isn't a minority, and where I provided several examples of things that minorities have to deal with regularly that in scope go quite a bit beyond bullying. like, why even respond if you're only gonna address the throwaway first sentence of a three-paragraph post? especially when the rest of that post more or less addresses the things you are saying in your response.
i'll reiterate: being a member of a social minority goes beyond just bullying, and your going back to bullying all the time suggests that you don't fully understand this. the issue at hand is that a large number of people do not have the same rights that you do, based on circumstances they have no control over. this is a fight against discrimination as a matter of law, against cultural tacit approval of violence up to and including murder, against being brutalized and having absolutely no recourse.
and every place that this shit is discussed, privileged people come in and do their level best to derail the conversations. maybe because on some level they understand that the idea of all the minorities that they shit on banding together and treating each others' problems as their own means a severe curtailing of the privilege that comes with being socially Normal. What you pointed out was not hypocrisy, it was an expression of desire to have a space where minorities can talk about minority things without being fucked with by privileged assholes (note that i am Emphatically Not Calling You Personally A Privileged Asshole, please read this sentence if you read no other). this is a basic thing that if you're privileged you don't even think about needing, since things that are relevant to you are the culture at large. you don't need your own space, for the same reason that there is no reason for White Entertainment Television.
its nobody's job or obligation to teach. there are people who get paid to do that
you're right that it's nobody's job
but generally how people learn is that someone teaches them
that's true. the onus is not on the oppressed to teach. it never will be, reconcile this and let it inform everyone it possibly fucking can
i remember being told a few times i was callous or intimidating in my personal life for not doing just that, as though it was expected of me. this has happened constantly, and hell even as a positivist christian who sort of feels obligated to act as christ would i'm also a human being with a fucking ceiling. i remember speaking to a woman of color who observed this, who'd told me she empathized on a level given people ask all these stupid fucking "as a black person do you BLANK" questions in the year 2013
i choose and others choose when to educate on a discretionary basis, and hell we're like most ordinary people, we aren't scholars and don't know everything, and we aren't right about everything. i'm well past this kind of thinking, it was never on me. i'm fucking awesome. the burden is not on me to tell you why im fucking awesome. it was always on you. if i help you, do something with it for fucks sake
I see where you're coming from in the context of this argument - i.e., some people do like to teach others about such issues and do so because they *want* to, not because they are obligated to do so or that the onus for the provision of education is on them.
But fundamentally, I disagree. There are plenty of people who ARE, or SHOULD BE obligated to teach who are not paid specifically to do so. They're called parents.
come on, now
that's being pedantic
"it's no minority's job to teach other people about the issues they face" is more like what Jane is trying to say and I know you know that
being that this entire thread has been punctuated with accusations of people being reductive
and being that a lot of the "teachers" in this case are voluntary bloggers (as stated in previous posts) without obligations to do what they do
I have absolutely NO problems throwing down that parents are - or should be - responsible for educating their kids on shit like respect for marginalised and oppressed groups, with few exceptions
minimising my argument as pedantic rather than acknowledging that any real impact or lasting change is going come from intergenerational conversations is pretty tunnel-visioned there
of course parents who are understanding of these issues are going to instill that sense in their kids. I really don't see the use in what you're saying
the problem has never been that parents who do get this stuff AREN'T teaching their kids to respect for marginalized and oppressed groups
and I guess I'm pointing out that it's the parents who don't get it are the problem
and as parents you have an obligation to educate your children in how to be a decent fucking person (i.e., an encapsulation of all things within this discussion including don't bully people, be nice, be inclusive, respect others etc)
which translates into an obligation for parents to get educated on how to be a decent fucking person
I deliberately took Jane's point and expanded it because the assumption that "of course everyone knows parents have to educate" is, well, an assumption and pretty damn far from a fact
it bears reminding that to teach, you must first have been taught
The response of 'oh Gabe is just saying this for the company' is weird. Was there an indication that PA is having difficulties? Last I saw PAX East tickets still sold out in record time.
I think that's just boilerplate cynicism, god forbid someone is sincere on the internet.
People are pointing at the dropping of PAR and PATV, but that seems like reaching to me. StripSearch was huge, and Pinny Arcade has been big too. They just dropped some things because the direction of the company was getting a bit confused with all the peripheral content.
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
the argument i've seen made is less for people going to pax and more apologizing for the sake of sponsors continuing to consider PA a cool place to invest money
i'm not saying that i consider it credible, but that is the argument i've seen made
And this is likely to be a bit controversial of me, but, just as a prompt and a question... the message that is given is that you can't really understand what it is like to be a member of a marginalised or oppressed group if you are a member of the majority (straight/white/cis/male) because you have no frame of reference for the alternative.
Yet at the same time the onus is not on the oppressed to educate.
So where then does the onus for education come from, if straight white cis males are presumed as unable to understand the problems from a fundamental enough level to impart knowledge about it to others?
There is a lot of material online that you can read. Numerous minority blogs, papers and other stuff that can do a whole hell of a lot to educate you.
As a cis white hetero male I will never truly understand what it's like to be oppressed or a minority but I can sure as shit educate myself and do everything in my power to avoid ignorance and do my best to contribute to positive change.
Oh I agree. You do not need to have walked someone's shoes to at least empathise with their experience.
As for the knowledge side, I guess I try my best to find the information myself, even though I am neither white nor male. However it cannot be as easy as going online to read material because the internet is flooded with unhelpful and derisive shit. You could argue that maybe you should know what you're looking for and look for the right blogs to read, but I guess my point is that someone's going to have to at least try to point them in right direction.
I think the breadth of information on the internet is exactly why some people ask to be educated. You can't just go "there's the internet, figure it out yourself if you want to know so bad" without the chance of them stumbling onto a site that's full of lies or hate and having them internalize those "facts" as true. From someone who's on the outside looking in, how do they figure out what site is right without help from someone on the inside?
Pretty much this. I like to think I have a decent handle on the basics - terminology, mostly - but I really do feel that if I didn't know people like Metalbourne or Antimatter or Dubh, I'd be struggling to know if even what I knew was correct or sensitive or even the most updated stuff.
the argument i've seen made is less for people going to pax and more apologizing for the sake of sponsors continuing to consider PA a cool place to invest money
i'm not saying that i consider it credible, but that is the argument i've seen made
Like with RPS encouraging people and companies not to support PAX?
I hadn't thought of that, I admit
If that's the case, though, thisi s an awfully low-key way to handle those concerns
The response of 'oh Gabe is just saying this for the company' is weird. Was there an indication that PA is having difficulties? Last I saw PAX East tickets still sold out in record time.
I think that's just boilerplate cynicism, god forbid someone is sincere on the internet.
People are pointing at the dropping of PAR and PATV, but that seems like reaching to me. StripSearch was huge, and Pinny Arcade has been big too. They just dropped some things because the direction of the company was getting a bit confused with all the peripheral content.
My understanding was that Jerry and Mike both talked about wanting to get back to doing the things they want to do, and PAR and PATV was getting beyond that scope. I don't think dropping those things were based solely on financial concerns - I think they were dropped due to a lack of interest. Not consumer interest, mind you, but a lack of interest by the creators to keep supporting its creation.
i guess i should amend that as though to say the thought i'm trying to convey, where it should never be on the minorities head. as far as education as a parent goes, sure i agree, but fundamental change where its being taught en masse at the parental level is a different discussion albeit on the same coin, sure
I was at a party this one time and this dude I did not know was saying from pretty not nice things about some girls that were also there.
And he got called out on it and his response was "no it's ok, I'm a feminist." and then everything was okay.
That is some kind of bullshit right there.
Using a self-identified label as a defense to run your mouth is pretty common stuff. You see it in things like internalised racism, for example. It can certainly be problematic, which is why I generally only make jokes about being Chinese with people who know me well enough to know that I can't listen to certain radio ads in this fucking country because they use over-exaggerated and blatantly shitty accents used to sell shitty fucking Chinese food.
It's very difficult to learn about something as sensitive as this without a guide when you're constantly being told that no matter what, you'll never know it.
I never really post in conversations like these, but I do a LOT of listening. I hardly ever post anymore, in fact, but I basically read every thread. And I don't think ill ever feel comfortable talking about it, because I know that my opinion will never be wanted or valued. Not because of any psychological analysis, but because that's what I've been told by the people whos opinion DOES matter. And I suppose that's okay, but independent research on a subject that's very poorly documented and different for literally every person is not a small task.
like, the conceit of a message board is that if you aren't lurking, you just love to talk, so much so, you'll do it by way of writing shit down. hell, there are actually far better methods of talking like twitter or the facebook, but because of your love of specificity, and looking for a very specific thing you choose a message board
now, i'd like to believe most people, if they're sociable (in this case maybe more through distance communcation) they might not like to put up walls, keeping people out. shoot, i don't like to put up walls. if the conversation is occurring, where they're trying to make a person understand something, its on the premise they want to remove boundaries and give you an idea of what informs where they're coming from
I just don't understand the need to be exclusionary. Why is is so important to have a pissing contest over who suffers the most, who is the most outraged, who gets hurt the most frequently or the most vitriolically?
this is a very silly mischaracterization of what's going on, and it's actually a pretty good example of why it looks to you like these conversations can be exclusionary
You personally told me it was impossible for me to understand what it was like because I wasn't the same kind of bullied as you were, I was told by Seta that I was not welcome in the conversation due to my perceived sexuality. When I pointed out the hypocrisy of a person who derides the "entitlements" of "privileged people" making demands for special privilage and entitlements I was derided that this was a "gotcha" and a weak one.
I'm not looking to undermine anyone's rights, I don't want people to get bullied for any reason. So if I appear identical to people you perceive to be attempting to undermine those rights, what is it about my argument or my way of thinking that somehow helps to regress the progress towards equality for everyone that I would like to see?
You cut out the meat of my post, where I basically was as clear as I possibly could be about no one here being pro-bullying if the victim isn't a minority, and where I provided several examples of things that minorities have to deal with regularly that in scope go quite a bit beyond bullying. like, why even respond if you're only gonna address the throwaway first sentence of a three-paragraph post? especially when the rest of that post more or less addresses the things you are saying in your response.
i'll reiterate: being a member of a social minority goes beyond just bullying, and your going back to bullying all the time suggests that you don't fully understand this. the issue at hand is that a large number of people do not have the same rights that you do, based on circumstances they have no control over. this is a fight against discrimination as a matter of law, against cultural tacit approval of violence up to and including murder, against being brutalized and having absolutely no recourse.
and every place that this shit is discussed, privileged people come in and do their level best to derail the conversations. maybe because on some level they understand that the idea of all the minorities that they shit on banding together and treating each others' problems as their own means a severe curtailing of the privilege that comes with being socially Normal. What you pointed out was not hypocrisy, it was an expression of desire to have a space where minorities can talk about minority things without being fucked with by privileged assholes (note that i am Emphatically Not Calling You Personally A Privileged Asshole, please read this sentence if you read no other). this is a basic thing that if you're privileged you don't even think about needing, since things that are relevant to you are the culture at large. you don't need your own space, for the same reason that there is no reason for White Entertainment Television.
Well the reason I keep going back to bullying, is because a special place has been set aside, a space demarcated as a discussion of bullying.
That place is this thread.
In this thread specifically, not in a hypothetical group of friends at a bar, not in a thread about the struggle of the handicapped(differently able if you prefer), or a thread about privilege and entitlement, I have been told that bullying is a lesser form of abuse than a systemic culture of abuse, and because of that, if I do not have some claim to one of the accepted isms of abuse my contributions mean much less than other peoples, and I should shut the fuck up and listen to them talk. I would not suggest that people are pro-bullying, that's a very silly thing to suggest, I have been told that I am pro-racism (in so many words) and that while I may not actually be "cis scum" I'm saying "cis scum" shaped things as a justification for why it seems that seta has become upset with me.
I'm sorry I keep trimming your posts when I quote them, I use it as a short hand for the salient part of the text I wanted to respond to. It seemed kind of pedantic to address things line by line but if it seems like I'm taking things out of context by doing so I'll stop.
I will once again state, If the police decide not to do their job because of their own personal biases about the crime, does it matter more what personal bias they want to use to be corrupt? Or that they are corrupt.
If a rapist goes unprosecuted because they're the son of the DA is it a greater or worse injustice than because the person raped was one of color? Or perhaps as a third option, is it equally bad that a DA is corrupt and has decided he has the whim and caprice to decide who the law applies to.
Yes, there are institutional structures of law which call out explicitly certain groups unfairly. Yes there are trends which show biases within systems unfairly and disproportionately affecting groups. I think these are bad.
I will not however accept the derogatory insinuation that it is my "privilege" not to fall victim to this, I am not privileged to not be raped, I am not privileged to not be murdered, I can and should rightly expect these as a matter of course within a civilized society. If people do not expect these same rights then I would like to investigate further why it is this expectation has been abused so it can be remedied.
I further will not accept that I must expose the ways in which I have been abused in order to garner enough special attention for my words to have merit within a conversation, this conversation here that we're all having, not a hypothetical one, this one right here. Is that clearer?
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
i guess i should amend that as though to say the thought i'm trying to convey, where it should never be on the minorities head. as far as education as a parent goes, sure i agree, but fundamental change where its being taught en masse at the parental level is a different discussion albeit on the same coin, sure
I do agree it shouldn't be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate. But ultimately, the oppressed are the ones who are best placed to provide such education, should they wish to do so. They do not have to educate just because you want to know. Fuck I'm sure everyone - privileged majority or not - can think of a time where you just don't even want to engage in a certain discussion because it's that exasperating or exhausting to have. Again.
EDIT: crap hit the post button before I had finished the rest of the post. Basically parents, carers, families, and educators hold the key to lasting change - values of open-mindedness, respect for others, breaking down the gender binary, etc are the foundations for wanting to acknowledge what minority groups experience, even if they may not be able to teach (let alone know) every finite detail of every marginalised group's experience.
It's very difficult to learn about something as sensitive as this without a guide when you're constantly being told that no matter what, you'll never know it.
The truth is that you will never "know" it, not because of this specific topic's nature, but because, well, you only really "know" you and your experience and context only.
In my brain I break it down with the language involved:
- "knowing" can only really be within yourself, because you know yourself best and are the only one who can know yourself the way you know you
- "understanding" generally happens within groups where there is a shared connection beyond basic humanity; same situation, same experience, same identity, same <something> that forges a connection or at least a parallel between you and someone else
- "empathising" is the thing that you can do regardless of whether or not you have a connection with someone; it is being able to picture what it might be like to have lived the way someone else has lived, in a completely different context, maybe drawing some analogs between that and your own experience... but there is an acknowledgement that you cannot presume to do more than empathise. You don't "understand" or "know" what it's like for a kid to watch his parents explode in front of him, but you can empathise with it, and some people can empathise better than others
And how well you "know", "understand" and "empathise" is on a spectrum. there are people who are very self-aware and know themselves well, and those who are not. There are people who are very good at understanding others, and those who are not. And there are people who don't empathise (well or at all) and those who do.
I think the goal isn't to "know" everything about being transgender, because it's an unrealistic goal in many ways. But the aspiration should always be towards empathy for what it must be like, and respecting that while you may be very good at empathising, there's still a limit.
Now, this is how I conceptualise things as someone whose job it is to support and listen to and help people who share stories for which I can only have the merest idea of what it must have been like. And this framework has served me well, because from my clients' feedback it's has been useful for them to know that someone "gets it" (i.e., empathises with their experience and understands the logical and emotional drivers within it) but still respects that they know their story best. But YMMV, and I'm sure everyone has their own ways of exploring a sensitive subject where they have no personal experience.
i dunno about this idea that if you're not oppressed in a particular way you can Never Truly Understand what it's like to be oppressed in that particular way
couldn't i just apply my basic human empathy
there are all sorts of experiences i'll never have but can nonetheless form a rough mental approximation of
VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
Plus, the presumption that you "know" what it is like to be someone else basically invalidates the fact that they have had to walk that walk themselves. Like you can just flick a few switches in your brain and suddenly conceptualise a way to "be" them, rather than having had to actually live that life. It's not hard to see how that can be incredibly insulting, really.
I will not however accept the derogatory insinuation that it is my "privilege" not to fall victim to this, I am not privileged to not be raped, I am not privileged to not be murdered, I can and should rightly expect these as a matter of course within a civilized society. If people do not expect these same rights then I would like to investigate further why it is this expectation has been abused so it can be remedied.
first i need to make something very clear: privilege is not a pejorative. when someone calls you privileged they are not attacking you, they are using it as shorthand for "your life experiences as a member of the majority have made it very difficult for you to see this thing from our perspective." it's not an insult, it's a statement of fact, and every group is privileged over another in one way or another.
this bit of your post that i quoted is a goddamn incredible example of privilege. you couldn't have done it better if you'd tried. because it's entirely the point that since you do not belong to one of these fucked-with groups you don't have to worry about the shit that they have to worry about! being that you belong to the group which has all the power, you don't have to worry about laws being designed to work against you, because they were designed to work for you. the very essense of privilege is taking basic things for granted without understanding that not everyone can do that.
you did a strange thing as well, with my examples of systemic discrimination. for each one you twisted the example around so that it specifically is not systemic injustice, and instead is an example of someone with power abusing that power on a small level. again this suggests to me that you don't really understand how deep this shit goes. when i said that a woman can go to the police after being raped and they will do everything they can to discourage her from filing a complaint, this is not only something that happens when a cop's kid is involved. This happens to a majority of women who are sexually assaulted. The cops either think she had it coming or just don't want to deal with it.
so i don't know man. we're going in circles and you're misrepresenting the things people are saying and taking umbrage at every possible thing, seeing personal attacks where there are none. i don't know what you hope to get out of this, but when you start out with your hackles up there isn't a lot of room for discussion
i dunno about this idea that if you're not oppressed in a particular way you can Never Truly Understand what it's like to be oppressed in that particular way
couldn't i just apply my basic human empathy
there are all sorts of experiences i'll never have but can nonetheless form a rough mental approximation of
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VivixenneRemember your training, and we'll get through this just fine.Registered Userregular
i dunno about this idea that if you're not oppressed in a particular way you can Never Truly Understand what it's like to be oppressed in that particular way
couldn't i just apply my basic human empathy
there are all sorts of experiences i'll never have but can nonetheless form a rough mental approximation of
well let's turn it back on you
what if I told you I really, truly understand you and your experience because I was able to just sit on my ass and think about it for a little while
what it's like to have been born where you were born, into the family you have, brought up the way you were, lived where you live, attended school you did, have the friends that you have, have the gender identity you have, the cultural identity you have, the sexual orientation you have, and by extension every belief or value you hold dear - I know all of it
I have, using the power of my brain, basically said that everything you have learned and know and perceive about the world around you can happen just by thinking
not by living, but by thinking
seems pretty belittling, doesn't it
yes you can empathise, but no you will never "truly understand"
Posts
Quite honestly, unless faced with someone who's close to them that is a minority, they typically don't.
I went through a little experiment lately, asking some of the same questions people asked in the last trans thread to some friends of mine. We're all cis, and generally pretty laid back people in general.
The answers I received were even worse than where I initially started at on these issues. And it hit me that as someone who enjoys growing my understanding of others, that if I really want to make any sort of real change myself, I need to take anything I learn from either direct questions or reading and share it with people I care about. Not just for them, but also for their children.
Because yeah, parents don't understand. That's why these things are issues in the first place.
Oh I agree. You do not need to have walked someone's shoes to at least empathise with their experience.
As for the knowledge side, I guess I try my best to find the information myself, even though I am neither white nor male. However it cannot be as easy as going online to read material because the internet is flooded with unhelpful and derisive shit. You could argue that maybe you should know what you're looking for and look for the right blogs to read, but I guess my point is that someone's going to have to at least try to point them in right direction.
of course parents who are understanding of these issues are going to instill that sense in their kids. I really don't see the use in what you're saying
the problem has never been that parents who do get this stuff AREN'T teaching their kids to respect for marginalized and oppressed groups
I think that's just boilerplate cynicism, god forbid someone is sincere on the internet.
well, basically
you are at a bar or something having a conversation with your friends and you are enjoying in-jokes, maybe you make a provocative joke about your friend
some random dude wanders in and makes a similarly provocative joke about your friend
and let's say you guys are not okay with that and your friend's feelings are even hurt even though this random dude totally just said the same thing you did
now would you tell him to fuck off, or would you sit him down and recount the entire history of your friendship with your friend and outline exactly why the joke is only funny because you said it?
pffft no, you'd tell him to fuck off
in essence, sometimes groups just wants to talk about stuff with people they know at least sit within their context (though individual experiences vary). they don't want to have to pause the conversation to introduce someone from outside that context to every nuance and subtlety within the conversation, because shoot most of that stuff is even hard to express in words, and maybe they have better things to do with their time than worry about your wants
I think the breadth of information on the internet is exactly why some people ask to be educated. You can't just go "there's the internet, figure it out yourself if you want to know so bad" without the chance of them stumbling onto a site that's full of lies or hate and having them internalize those "facts" as true. From someone who's on the outside looking in, how do they figure out what site is right without help from someone on the inside?
You cut out the meat of my post, where I basically was as clear as I possibly could be about no one here being pro-bullying if the victim isn't a minority, and where I provided several examples of things that minorities have to deal with regularly that in scope go quite a bit beyond bullying. like, why even respond if you're only gonna address the throwaway first sentence of a three-paragraph post? especially when the rest of that post more or less addresses the things you are saying in your response.
i'll reiterate: being a member of a social minority goes beyond just bullying, and your going back to bullying all the time suggests that you don't fully understand this. the issue at hand is that a large number of people do not have the same rights that you do, based on circumstances they have no control over. this is a fight against discrimination as a matter of law, against cultural tacit approval of violence up to and including murder, against being brutalized and having absolutely no recourse.
and every place that this shit is discussed, privileged people come in and do their level best to derail the conversations. maybe because on some level they understand that the idea of all the minorities that they shit on banding together and treating each others' problems as their own means a severe curtailing of the privilege that comes with being socially Normal. What you pointed out was not hypocrisy, it was an expression of desire to have a space where minorities can talk about minority things without being fucked with by privileged assholes (note that i am Emphatically Not Calling You Personally A Privileged Asshole, please read this sentence if you read no other). this is a basic thing that if you're privileged you don't even think about needing, since things that are relevant to you are the culture at large. you don't need your own space, for the same reason that there is no reason for White Entertainment Television.
hitting hot metal with hammers
and I guess I'm pointing out that it's the parents who don't get it are the problem
and as parents you have an obligation to educate your children in how to be a decent fucking person (i.e., an encapsulation of all things within this discussion including don't bully people, be nice, be inclusive, respect others etc)
which translates into an obligation for parents to get educated on how to be a decent fucking person
I deliberately took Jane's point and expanded it because the assumption that "of course everyone knows parents have to educate" is, well, an assumption and pretty damn far from a fact
it bears reminding that to teach, you must first have been taught
they are also good when paired with cheese
wait, what kind of chip we talkin' here?
i'm not saying that i consider it credible, but that is the argument i've seen made
I dunno like tortilla chips
maybe some fritos
Pretty much this. I like to think I have a decent handle on the basics - terminology, mostly - but I really do feel that if I didn't know people like Metalbourne or Antimatter or Dubh, I'd be struggling to know if even what I knew was correct or sensitive or even the most updated stuff.
yeah, alright that sounds like a good time.
Like with RPS encouraging people and companies not to support PAX?
I hadn't thought of that, I admit
If that's the case, though, thisi s an awfully low-key way to handle those concerns
trick question - every kind of chip is good with cheese
I was at a party this one time and this dude I did not know was saying from pretty not nice things about some girls that were also there.
And he got called out on it and his response was "no it's ok, I'm a feminist." and then everything was okay.
That is some kind of bullshit right there.
My understanding was that Jerry and Mike both talked about wanting to get back to doing the things they want to do, and PAR and PATV was getting beyond that scope. I don't think dropping those things were based solely on financial concerns - I think they were dropped due to a lack of interest. Not consumer interest, mind you, but a lack of interest by the creators to keep supporting its creation.
gotta disagree. most potato chips ares not good with cheese. except fries. those are good with cheese.
Using a self-identified label as a defense to run your mouth is pretty common stuff. You see it in things like internalised racism, for example. It can certainly be problematic, which is why I generally only make jokes about being Chinese with people who know me well enough to know that I can't listen to certain radio ads in this fucking country because they use over-exaggerated and blatantly shitty accents used to sell shitty fucking Chinese food.
Holy tangent.
my wife likes to sprinkle vinegar on potato chips
I never really post in conversations like these, but I do a LOT of listening. I hardly ever post anymore, in fact, but I basically read every thread. And I don't think ill ever feel comfortable talking about it, because I know that my opinion will never be wanted or valued. Not because of any psychological analysis, but because that's what I've been told by the people whos opinion DOES matter. And I suppose that's okay, but independent research on a subject that's very poorly documented and different for literally every person is not a small task.
now, i'd like to believe most people, if they're sociable (in this case maybe more through distance communcation) they might not like to put up walls, keeping people out. shoot, i don't like to put up walls. if the conversation is occurring, where they're trying to make a person understand something, its on the premise they want to remove boundaries and give you an idea of what informs where they're coming from
Well the reason I keep going back to bullying, is because a special place has been set aside, a space demarcated as a discussion of bullying.
That place is this thread.
In this thread specifically, not in a hypothetical group of friends at a bar, not in a thread about the struggle of the handicapped(differently able if you prefer), or a thread about privilege and entitlement, I have been told that bullying is a lesser form of abuse than a systemic culture of abuse, and because of that, if I do not have some claim to one of the accepted isms of abuse my contributions mean much less than other peoples, and I should shut the fuck up and listen to them talk. I would not suggest that people are pro-bullying, that's a very silly thing to suggest, I have been told that I am pro-racism (in so many words) and that while I may not actually be "cis scum" I'm saying "cis scum" shaped things as a justification for why it seems that seta has become upset with me.
I'm sorry I keep trimming your posts when I quote them, I use it as a short hand for the salient part of the text I wanted to respond to. It seemed kind of pedantic to address things line by line but if it seems like I'm taking things out of context by doing so I'll stop.
I will once again state, If the police decide not to do their job because of their own personal biases about the crime, does it matter more what personal bias they want to use to be corrupt? Or that they are corrupt.
If a rapist goes unprosecuted because they're the son of the DA is it a greater or worse injustice than because the person raped was one of color? Or perhaps as a third option, is it equally bad that a DA is corrupt and has decided he has the whim and caprice to decide who the law applies to.
Yes, there are institutional structures of law which call out explicitly certain groups unfairly. Yes there are trends which show biases within systems unfairly and disproportionately affecting groups. I think these are bad.
I will not however accept the derogatory insinuation that it is my "privilege" not to fall victim to this, I am not privileged to not be raped, I am not privileged to not be murdered, I can and should rightly expect these as a matter of course within a civilized society. If people do not expect these same rights then I would like to investigate further why it is this expectation has been abused so it can be remedied.
I further will not accept that I must expose the ways in which I have been abused in order to garner enough special attention for my words to have merit within a conversation, this conversation here that we're all having, not a hypothetical one, this one right here. Is that clearer?
naknaknaknaknak
I do agree it shouldn't be the responsibility of the oppressed to educate. But ultimately, the oppressed are the ones who are best placed to provide such education, should they wish to do so. They do not have to educate just because you want to know. Fuck I'm sure everyone - privileged majority or not - can think of a time where you just don't even want to engage in a certain discussion because it's that exasperating or exhausting to have. Again.
EDIT: crap hit the post button before I had finished the rest of the post. Basically parents, carers, families, and educators hold the key to lasting change - values of open-mindedness, respect for others, breaking down the gender binary, etc are the foundations for wanting to acknowledge what minority groups experience, even if they may not be able to teach (let alone know) every finite detail of every marginalised group's experience.
Sour Cream and Onion.
And I don't even like onion normally.
The truth is that you will never "know" it, not because of this specific topic's nature, but because, well, you only really "know" you and your experience and context only.
In my brain I break it down with the language involved:
- "knowing" can only really be within yourself, because you know yourself best and are the only one who can know yourself the way you know you
- "understanding" generally happens within groups where there is a shared connection beyond basic humanity; same situation, same experience, same identity, same <something> that forges a connection or at least a parallel between you and someone else
- "empathising" is the thing that you can do regardless of whether or not you have a connection with someone; it is being able to picture what it might be like to have lived the way someone else has lived, in a completely different context, maybe drawing some analogs between that and your own experience... but there is an acknowledgement that you cannot presume to do more than empathise. You don't "understand" or "know" what it's like for a kid to watch his parents explode in front of him, but you can empathise with it, and some people can empathise better than others
And how well you "know", "understand" and "empathise" is on a spectrum. there are people who are very self-aware and know themselves well, and those who are not. There are people who are very good at understanding others, and those who are not. And there are people who don't empathise (well or at all) and those who do.
I think the goal isn't to "know" everything about being transgender, because it's an unrealistic goal in many ways. But the aspiration should always be towards empathy for what it must be like, and respecting that while you may be very good at empathising, there's still a limit.
Now, this is how I conceptualise things as someone whose job it is to support and listen to and help people who share stories for which I can only have the merest idea of what it must have been like. And this framework has served me well, because from my clients' feedback it's has been useful for them to know that someone "gets it" (i.e., empathises with their experience and understands the logical and emotional drivers within it) but still respects that they know their story best. But YMMV, and I'm sure everyone has their own ways of exploring a sensitive subject where they have no personal experience.
couldn't i just apply my basic human empathy
there are all sorts of experiences i'll never have but can nonetheless form a rough mental approximation of
first i need to make something very clear: privilege is not a pejorative. when someone calls you privileged they are not attacking you, they are using it as shorthand for "your life experiences as a member of the majority have made it very difficult for you to see this thing from our perspective." it's not an insult, it's a statement of fact, and every group is privileged over another in one way or another.
this bit of your post that i quoted is a goddamn incredible example of privilege. you couldn't have done it better if you'd tried. because it's entirely the point that since you do not belong to one of these fucked-with groups you don't have to worry about the shit that they have to worry about! being that you belong to the group which has all the power, you don't have to worry about laws being designed to work against you, because they were designed to work for you. the very essense of privilege is taking basic things for granted without understanding that not everyone can do that.
you did a strange thing as well, with my examples of systemic discrimination. for each one you twisted the example around so that it specifically is not systemic injustice, and instead is an example of someone with power abusing that power on a small level. again this suggests to me that you don't really understand how deep this shit goes. when i said that a woman can go to the police after being raped and they will do everything they can to discourage her from filing a complaint, this is not only something that happens when a cop's kid is involved. This happens to a majority of women who are sexually assaulted. The cops either think she had it coming or just don't want to deal with it.
so i don't know man. we're going in circles and you're misrepresenting the things people are saying and taking umbrage at every possible thing, seeing personal attacks where there are none. i don't know what you hope to get out of this, but when you start out with your hackles up there isn't a lot of room for discussion
hitting hot metal with hammers
not really, no
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
well let's turn it back on you
what if I told you I really, truly understand you and your experience because I was able to just sit on my ass and think about it for a little while
what it's like to have been born where you were born, into the family you have, brought up the way you were, lived where you live, attended school you did, have the friends that you have, have the gender identity you have, the cultural identity you have, the sexual orientation you have, and by extension every belief or value you hold dear - I know all of it
I have, using the power of my brain, basically said that everything you have learned and know and perceive about the world around you can happen just by thinking
not by living, but by thinking
seems pretty belittling, doesn't it
yes you can empathise, but no you will never "truly understand"