Am I alone in not really seeing the influence of the enemy color in each clan?
Abzan are all about family and toughness... and somehow the selfish tendencies of black fit in there too?
Jeskai are a group of enlightened martial artists... because when I think "enlightened discipline," I think red mana?
Sultai are greedy and ruthless deceivers... and we all know how green mages love deception?
Mardu act first, think maybe, and generally ransack whatever they can... just like every white-aligned strategy ever?
Temur are proponents of savage independence... plus whatever blue mana contributes?
They just feel like Selesnya, Azorius (maybe closer to Esper), Dimir, Rakdos, and Gruul to me. I hope that changes as we get more information, but right now this isn't working as well flavor-wise as Alara did.
That's because each clan is not defined by one color and its two enemies. It's defined by one color, its ally, and one of its enemies. So Jeskai is blue, plus white and red. Temur is green, plus red and blue.
EDIT: Whoops, misread you. Jeskai maybe the red is from the independence of the different sects from each other? Temur might use blue for the aspect of improvement through knowledge, though it might also show through in their clan ability when we see it. But you're right and I hope that they go more in depth soon, like Maro's articles dedicated to each guild back from OG Ravnica block.
I think a big reason that they've resisted a wedge-based theme for so long is because they don't easily align with MaRo's color philosophies on a conceptual level, though the mechanic theme of each clan feels appropriate.
As Terrendos says, we can observe that the rewritten mana costs let us know that they chose to express the wedges as Primary/Ally/Enemy rather than Primary/Enemy/Enemy, which highlights that pursuing an Enemy Wedge concept may have been even more fractured or indistinct with regards to expressing color philosophies.
Am I alone in not really seeing the influence of the enemy color in each clan?
Abzan are all about family and toughness... and somehow the selfish tendencies of black fit in there too?
Jeskai are a group of enlightened martial artists... because when I think "enlightened discipline," I think red mana?
Sultai are greedy and ruthless deceivers... and we all know how green mages love deception?
Mardu act first, think maybe, and generally ransack whatever they can... just like every white-aligned strategy ever?
Temur are proponents of savage independence... plus whatever blue mana contributes?
They just feel like Selesnya, Azorius (maybe closer to Esper), Dimir, Rakdos, and Gruul to me. I hope that changes as we get more information, but right now this isn't working as well flavor-wise as Alara did.
That's because each clan is not defined by one color and its two enemies. It's defined by one color, its ally, and one of its enemies. So Jeskai is blue, plus white and red. Temur is green, plus red and blue.
Yes, but the allied color fits. If you shifted the colors around but kept the same philosophy (e.g., Temur but GWB or Jeskai but UBG) they wouldn't make any sense at all.
What I'm saying is that the enemy color has no influence on the clan's philosophy as currently presented, and is in fact pretty much opposed to it in general principles. So far all I'm seeing an influence on is their respective palettes.
To be fair, this is something they've pretty much never had to do outside of Treefolk in Lorwyn; there have literally been only eleven wedge-colored cards printed in booster packs (so not Commander or Planechase) to date. Identifying the shards as the idealized worlds of each central color (with the utter lack of their enemies influence) made Alara work and helped make the names stick, plus the other two colors almost always felt like they had elements that belonged in that shard.
I'm not seeing that with the Clans. Not yet. I have faith that they'll get there eventually, but the early sell is falling flat for me.
AC:NH Chris from Glosta SW-5173-3598-2899 DA-4749-1014-4697 @vyolynce@mastodon.social
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
edited August 2014
Uh we know almost nothing about the clans at this point.
Looking at Zurgo (one of the few actual cards we've seen), he's clearly a combination of the colors. He's got red (attacks every turn, high power vs low toughness), white (indestructibility), and black (Sengir Vampire ability). To see the influence of white on Mardu, just compare it to Rakdos; the Mardu are clearly more organized and militaristic than Rakdos, who are just a pack of selfish psychopaths. If anything it seems like the black portion is least defined; so far, Mardu has been looking pretty Boros.
Awkwardly, describing Zhurgo in that way makes his design seem more "checkboxy" than Sam Stoddard's article would suggest is good.
Also, I'm guessing the XXBBBB card is an updated Bane of the Living, something like:
Living Banefully
XXBBBB
Creature - Horror (R)
4/3
Morph XBB
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield or is turned face up, other creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Am I alone in not really seeing the influence of the enemy color in each clan?
Abzan are all about family and toughness... and somehow the selfish tendencies of black fit in there too?
Jeskai are a group of enlightened martial artists... because when I think "enlightened discipline," I think red mana?
Sultai are greedy and ruthless deceivers... and we all know how green mages love deception?
Mardu act first, think maybe, and generally ransack whatever they can... just like every white-aligned strategy ever?
Temur are proponents of savage independence... plus whatever blue mana contributes?
They just feel like Selesnya, Azorius (maybe closer to Esper), Dimir, Rakdos, and Gruul to me. I hope that changes as we get more information, but right now this isn't working as well flavor-wise as Alara did.
I was actually thinking about this yesterday. Aside from the minimal info we currently have, I'd say you're maybe thinking too much on how each individual color has values that don't mix instead of how they coexist
WUR is the perfect color combination to represent enlightenment-seekers! Especially if those enlightenment seekers fight using martial arts, a very personal means of self-expression with emphasis on form and application outside of combat. They've got the pursuit of knowledge and overall harmony that any UW combo has, but the red represents their focus of self-betterment, of pursuing adventurous and free-thought, of attunement to the self. They aren't about enforcing laws to make society the best that it could be, but about making each individual person the best they could be within the whole. If I was gonna liken them to an existing group, I'd say Jeskai seem to be more like a benevolent izzet.
+4
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
and for Mardu, they're not all that Rakdos. They're a bloodthirstier Boros with emphasis on individual glory and accomplishment. They're proud both singularly and collectively; Zurgo is all about Zurgo glory, but he's also all about Mardu glory. Those two things aren't necessarily at odds.
Fair points. I'm probably being unfairly influenced by the options on that quiz, since right now that's basically all we have. I could only "hear" the allied colors in each obvious answer.
AC:NH Chris from Glosta SW-5173-3598-2899 DA-4749-1014-4697 @vyolynce@mastodon.social
0
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Fair points. I'm probably being unfairly influenced by the options on that quiz, since right now that's basically all we have. I could only "hear" the allied colors in each obvious answer.
yeah, i get that (and agree re: the quiz)
and really, though I haven't gone into deep thought on 'em or anything, I wouldn't say I've got a great read on how the colors of sultai or temur inform their character yet either, beyond limps stabs like "rural dimir" and "their shamans are like... walter white-caliber"
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Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
For Abzan, what seems to stand out to me is that they're characterized by their endurance. Their official name is "The Abzan Houses," which has connotations of lineage, legacy, etc: old money mages of a sort. Think Orzhov if it actually thought of itself as a family and cared, at least in the abstract, about its members, about their continued growth and prosperity. So I'd peg their focus as being on the continued existence of their houses into the future. There's a selfishness in their will to survive and endure (green and black) and a vanity in specifically preserving Abzan's deeds and legacy (white and black), but within these values they care about one another, of enduring alongside their friends and family (white and green).
+4
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Actually now that I'm thinking about it (and after looking at the full names again) Temur's full name is "The Temur Frontier." Conveys a sense of being on the edge, and of constantly pushing beyond that edge. And what's more blue than a perpetual plunge into the unknown with a curious mind? The unknown in this case is just the natural world. Blue actually makes a lot of sense as a color of explorers, beyond the obvious green-ness of it. So Temur seems to me to be about adventure, discovery, and punching the things that you discover.
For Abzan, what seems to stand out to me is that they're characterized by their endurance. Their official name is "The Abzan Houses," which has connotations of lineage, legacy, etc: old money mages of a sort. Think Orzhov if it actually thought of itself as a family and cared, at least in the abstract, about its members, about their continued growth and prosperity. So I'd peg their focus as being on the continued existence of their houses into the future. There's a selfishness in their will to survive and endure (green and black) and a vanity in specifically preserving Abzan's deeds and legacy (white and black), but within these values they care about one another, of enduring alongside their friends and family (white and green).
While I believe much of what you said still applies, I was under the impression that the Abzan have been characterized as nomadic exiles from the other clans; rather than being vain, old money mages, it seems they're more likely individuals expelled from their original tribes for adhering to personal values that conflicted with those of their native tribes, which is a manner of stubborn "collective" individualism that feels very WBG, even if individualism isn't generally an attribute applied to White or White-centered philosophies.
Regardless, Mobile Fortress Elephants are pretty cool.
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
For Abzan, what seems to stand out to me is that they're characterized by their endurance. Their official name is "The Abzan Houses," which has connotations of lineage, legacy, etc: old money mages of a sort. Think Orzhov if it actually thought of itself as a family and cared, at least in the abstract, about its members, about their continued growth and prosperity. So I'd peg their focus as being on the continued existence of their houses into the future. There's a selfishness in their will to survive and endure (green and black) and a vanity in specifically preserving Abzan's deeds and legacy (white and black), but within these values they care about one another, of enduring alongside their friends and family (white and green).
While I believe much of what you said still applies, I was under the impression that the Abzan have been characterized as nomadic exiles from the other clans; rather than being vain, old money mages, it seems they're more likely individuals expelled from their original tribes for adhering to personal values that conflicted with those of their native tribes, which is a manner of stubborn "collective" individualism that feels very WBG, even if individualism isn't generally an attribute applied to White or White-centered philosophies.
Regardless, Mobile Fortress Elephants are pretty cool.
Ahh! That's cool, I can see how that works within the color philosophy. The ""old money"" flavor was totally a stab by me based on their name that then got me thinking about the ways WBG might me expressed by them. I musta missed the nomadic exile characterization
without the total context it makes me think "red" more than it probably will/is supposed to, but if it's flavored like a heretical-ish unity or naturalist ideology i can see it coming more from the black type of individualism
0
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Ahh! That's cool, I can see how that works within the color philosophy. The ""old money"" flavor was totally a stab by me based on their name that then got me thinking about the ways WBG might me expressed by them. I musta missed the nomadic exile characterization
without the total context it makes me think "red" more than it probably will/is supposed to, but if it's flavored like a heretical-ish unity or naturalist ideology i can see it coming more from the black type of individualism
I was trying to find what I remembered reading, but all I could come up with is this little blurb that refers to the Abzan as "adopting orphans of war". Apparently the Temur are the nomads.
EDIT: Hopefully the Abzan ability isn't YET another thing that grants +1/+1 counters.
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
I'm more aboard the abzan train after reading that blurb and seeing they live in the desert
Oh, not hate, just feel like it might have been nice to get a block without using them as a core element of an archetype's identity.
Also, an abundance of counters (of any sort) is a minor visual nuisance when watching event coverage. SCG does a good job using goofy gigantic dice, but I feel WotC coverage is pretty lacking, both because of lower resolution and smaller dice.
Listening to the latest LR, where they are discussing the changes to Block Structure with regards to Limited, Brian Wong mentioned something I missed in the original article ( if it was in there at all, and not stated earlier), and I thought I'd bring it up here too in case y'all missed it too:
Large sets will now be larger - featuring 20 ( I think) additional Uncommons. I think that's great for a number of reasons:
1) More room to reprint staples that would usually be in Core Sets - whether a Common bumping other cards up, or at Uncommon itself
2) allows more cards to experiment with a new mechanic/theme from a Block to help make up for the loss of a third set.
Eh... Kaalia just feels like box-checking (angels, demons, dragons) and Tariel would be much better suited as a straight WB card without the randomness of red getting in the way, since that's all it adds to her. Ruhan's kind of a tough sell too, as I don't think his blue-ness really comes through at all.
The first thing I said when I saw that elephant was, "Oh man, now everybody's going to be playing Ghave for 3 months, again."
I will stand by that statement, as well. I mean, not everybody everybody, obviously, but a lot of those old Ghave decks will be dusted off since it seems apparent the Junk wedge is all about +1/+1 counters.
The first thing I said when I saw that elephant was, "Oh man, now everybody's going to be playing Ghave for 3 months, again."
I will stand by that statement, as well. I mean, not everybody everybody, obviously, but a lot of those old Ghave decks will be dusted off since it seems apparent the Junk wedge is all about +1/+1 counters.
It's not like Ghave needs any help, I mean, you can trip over yourself and suddenly realise you've gone infinite playing a Ghave deck.
Yeah, hopefully it means more funky "build around" cards for limited.
It's a damn shame you weren't around for the glory of Burning Vengeance and Spider Spawning.
I helped someone with a spider tribal deck they wanted to make for casual games, it even turned out to be a pretty solid deck. I added the Spiderspawning loop for funsies too because it's the best spider card.
Posts
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
That's because each clan is not defined by one color and its two enemies. It's defined by one color, its ally, and one of its enemies. So Jeskai is blue, plus white and red. Temur is green, plus red and blue.
EDIT: Whoops, misread you. Jeskai maybe the red is from the independence of the different sects from each other? Temur might use blue for the aspect of improvement through knowledge, though it might also show through in their clan ability when we see it. But you're right and I hope that they go more in depth soon, like Maro's articles dedicated to each guild back from OG Ravnica block.
As Terrendos says, we can observe that the rewritten mana costs let us know that they chose to express the wedges as Primary/Ally/Enemy rather than Primary/Enemy/Enemy, which highlights that pursuing an Enemy Wedge concept may have been even more fractured or indistinct with regards to expressing color philosophies.
Also here's the Khans art for Zurgo
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Yes, but the allied color fits. If you shifted the colors around but kept the same philosophy (e.g., Temur but GWB or Jeskai but UBG) they wouldn't make any sense at all.
What I'm saying is that the enemy color has no influence on the clan's philosophy as currently presented, and is in fact pretty much opposed to it in general principles. So far all I'm seeing an influence on is their respective palettes.
To be fair, this is something they've pretty much never had to do outside of Treefolk in Lorwyn; there have literally been only eleven wedge-colored cards printed in booster packs (so not Commander or Planechase) to date. Identifying the shards as the idealized worlds of each central color (with the utter lack of their enemies influence) made Alara work and helped make the names stick, plus the other two colors almost always felt like they had elements that belonged in that shard.
I'm not seeing that with the Clans. Not yet. I have faith that they'll get there eventually, but the early sell is falling flat for me.
Looking at Zurgo (one of the few actual cards we've seen), he's clearly a combination of the colors. He's got red (attacks every turn, high power vs low toughness), white (indestructibility), and black (Sengir Vampire ability). To see the influence of white on Mardu, just compare it to Rakdos; the Mardu are clearly more organized and militaristic than Rakdos, who are just a pack of selfish psychopaths. If anything it seems like the black portion is least defined; so far, Mardu has been looking pretty Boros.
Also, I'm guessing the XXBBBB card is an updated Bane of the Living, something like:
Living Banefully
XXBBBB
Creature - Horror (R)
4/3
Morph XBB
When CARDNAME enters the battlefield or is turned face up, other creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
I was actually thinking about this yesterday. Aside from the minimal info we currently have, I'd say you're maybe thinking too much on how each individual color has values that don't mix instead of how they coexist
WUR is the perfect color combination to represent enlightenment-seekers! Especially if those enlightenment seekers fight using martial arts, a very personal means of self-expression with emphasis on form and application outside of combat. They've got the pursuit of knowledge and overall harmony that any UW combo has, but the red represents their focus of self-betterment, of pursuing adventurous and free-thought, of attunement to the self. They aren't about enforcing laws to make society the best that it could be, but about making each individual person the best they could be within the whole. If I was gonna liken them to an existing group, I'd say Jeskai seem to be more like a benevolent izzet.
yeah, i get that (and agree re: the quiz)
and really, though I haven't gone into deep thought on 'em or anything, I wouldn't say I've got a great read on how the colors of sultai or temur inform their character yet either, beyond limps stabs like "rural dimir" and "their shamans are like... walter white-caliber"
While I believe much of what you said still applies, I was under the impression that the Abzan have been characterized as nomadic exiles from the other clans; rather than being vain, old money mages, it seems they're more likely individuals expelled from their original tribes for adhering to personal values that conflicted with those of their native tribes, which is a manner of stubborn "collective" individualism that feels very WBG, even if individualism isn't generally an attribute applied to White or White-centered philosophies.
Regardless, Mobile Fortress Elephants are pretty cool.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Ahh! That's cool, I can see how that works within the color philosophy. The ""old money"" flavor was totally a stab by me based on their name that then got me thinking about the ways WBG might me expressed by them. I musta missed the nomadic exile characterization
without the total context it makes me think "red" more than it probably will/is supposed to, but if it's flavored like a heretical-ish unity or naturalist ideology i can see it coming more from the black type of individualism
colors, man! colors. magic... is cool.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I was trying to find what I remembered reading, but all I could come up with is this little blurb that refers to the Abzan as "adopting orphans of war". Apparently the Temur are the nomads.
EDIT: Hopefully the Abzan ability isn't YET another thing that grants +1/+1 counters.
Obv the Abzan are all Fungusaurs. They get stronger from taking damage that doesn't kill them outright. ENDURANCE OF THE DRAGON!
But I don't want it to be true, not one bit.
i love fantasy desert shit
gimme some sandy-ass hydras
Also, an abundance of counters (of any sort) is a minor visual nuisance when watching event coverage. SCG does a good job using goofy gigantic dice, but I feel WotC coverage is pretty lacking, both because of lower resolution and smaller dice.
Large sets will now be larger - featuring 20 ( I think) additional Uncommons. I think that's great for a number of reasons:
1) More room to reprint staples that would usually be in Core Sets - whether a Common bumping other cards up, or at Uncommon itself
2) allows more cards to experiment with a new mechanic/theme from a Block to help make up for the loss of a third set.
It's a damn shame you weren't around for the glory of Burning Vengeance and Spider Spawning.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
What's interesting is that Animar is definitely a "Temur" card, while the other guy (whose name I forget) is totally RUG.
Still, 7 out of 10 is pretty good.
Riki of Two Reflections. Man, what a damned nuisance he is.
I will stand by that statement, as well. I mean, not everybody everybody, obviously, but a lot of those old Ghave decks will be dusted off since it seems apparent the Junk wedge is all about +1/+1 counters.
It's not like Ghave needs any help, I mean, you can trip over yourself and suddenly realise you've gone infinite playing a Ghave deck.
I helped someone with a spider tribal deck they wanted to make for casual games, it even turned out to be a pretty solid deck. I added the Spiderspawning loop for funsies too because it's the best spider card.
4 Deadly Recluse
2 Aquastrand Spider
4 Nyx Weaver
4 Graverobber Spider
4 Silklash Spider
2 Arachnus Spinner
2 Arachnus Web
3 Spider Spawning
3 Grisly Salvage
2 Memory's Journey
2 Runic Repetition
8 Forest
4 Simic Guildgate
4 Golgari Guildgate
5 Swamp
2 Island
Anyone got some funky predictions? Will we see the return of Horsemanship?!?! (Mighty Morphing Horsemen of the Apocalypse)
EDIT: So Delve instead of Unearth, which was generally anticipated. And Outlast... literally just "put a +1/+1 counter on this dude".