I'm happy SpaceX didn't get all the marbles cause I think Elon Musk is a fucking shyster.
Can you elaborate on what part of his companies, or public statements gives you this impression?
Mostly, I'm upset with the way he's handled Tesla. I don't like the image they put out of being exciting and innovative when their actual engineering is blasé and hasn't really contributed to the development of EVs.
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
The biggest thing they could have done to advance EVs was to help build charging infrastructure. Which they did, but's it's locked down for Tesla use only.
Hyperloop is a joke made mostly of tech buzzwords.
Paypal is incredibly scummy but he hasn't been involved with it for quite some time. I dunno what it was like back then.
So yeah. I just don't trust the guy. I think he's more interested in making money than advancing the industries he dabbles in. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but people treat him like he's John Galt meets Jesus Christ and it bugs me.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but this is how all the EVs that I know of are built, and tiny batteries is a lot safer then great big honking cells.
Every model of Toyota prius has used the "thousands of tiny cells" approach to the battery pack, and the early models used those exact cells (Toyota switched to some sort of prismatic cell later, but there's a trade off to that since perfect flatpacking is not a good thing when you need to actively cool the cells).
The alternative to tiny cells is big cells, and those will catch fire much more violently in a crash.
Frankly, the idea that the fire issue is special to Tesla is a beat up: it's an issue to any EV using lithium-ion chemistry. But there are more Teslas out there (going faster, incidentally) then any other kind.
I'm happy SpaceX didn't get all the marbles cause I think Elon Musk is a fucking shyster.
Can you elaborate on what part of his companies, or public statements gives you this impression?
Mostly, I'm upset with the way he's handled Tesla. I don't like the image they put out of being exciting and innovative when their actual engineering is blasé and hasn't really contributed to the development of EVs.
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
The biggest thing they could have done to advance EVs was to help build charging infrastructure. Which they did, but's it's locked down for Tesla use only.
Hyperloop is a joke made mostly of tech buzzwords.
Paypal is incredibly scummy but he hasn't been involved with it for quite some time. I dunno what it was like back then.
So yeah. I just don't trust the guy. I think he's more interested in making money than advancing the industries he dabbles in. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but people treat him like he's John Galt meets Jesus Christ and it bugs me.
Not to defend him - many who have worked around and under him have apparently noted he has more of the negative personality traits associated with say, Steve Jobs, rather than as many of the positives - but there are a few things that can be clarified here.
Most of his companies' engineering projects are indeed very simple in their overall design. There's nothing particularly special or groundbreaking about the AC Induction motors or the off-the-shelf cells used to assemble the battery packs for Tesla's cars, and plenty have said the Merlin engines used to drive the Falcon family of rockets are simply the nicest V-2 engines you can get your hands on. Hell, the Hyperloop concept is just a cheaped-out version of a vacuum tube transport. However, there's something to be said for simple machines that perform exactly as advertised; this is only amplified when they are also [relatively] inexpensive. The fact that his companies have done this consistently is what's afforded him the spotlight he currently enjoys.
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but this is how all the EVs that I know of are built, and tiny batteries is a lot safer then great big honking cells.
Every model of Toyota prius has used the "thousands of tiny cells" approach to the battery pack, and the early models used those exact cells (Toyota switched to some sort of prismatic cell later, but there's a trade off to that since perfect flatpacking is not a good thing when you need to actively cool the cells).
The alternative to tiny cells is big cells, and those will catch fire much more violently in a crash.
Frankly, the idea that the fire issue is special to Tesla is a beat up: it's an issue to any EV using lithium-ion chemistry. But there are more Teslas out there (going faster, incidentally) then any other kind.
There are not more Teslas on the road, where did you get that idea? For plug in electrics; there have been around 65k Chevy volts sold, though they are a hybrid. Followed by ~60k Nissan Leafs, a pure electric. Tesla is sitting around 30k, along with Toyota Prius plug in hybrids.
The Leaf, which has had no fires in testing or on the road, uses custom built large cells. The Volt as well uses custom cells, and the only fires I can find reported were during crash testing.
I'm also not sure why you think cells designed specifically for cars are more likely to catch fire?
The Tesla packs catch fire simply from being punctured. The Leafs don't catch fire at all.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2014
Reading the wikipedia article (Yeah, I know) is illuminating. Even with Tesla's few fires, electric cars are no more of a fire risk than one with an internal combustion engine.
Tesla seems to have responded thoroughly to all incidents and the Highway Traffic Safety Admin has no issues with them. Software upgrades and hardware upgrades are available free of charge on next software update or scheduled maintenance. I don't know what more to say.
On the topic of charging infrastructure they have said that any manufacturer can use the network if they help with the costs. No one has taken them up on it.
And for advancing EV's as an industry, they have made their patent portfolio open for use for anyone who makes an electric car. What more do you want from them?
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Reading the wikipedia article (Yeah, I know) is illuminating. Even with Tesla's few fires, electric cars are no more of a fire risk than one with an internal combustion engine.
Tesla seems to have responded thoroughly to all incidents and the Highway Traffic Safety Admin has no issues with them. Software upgrades and hardware upgrades are available free of charge on next software update or scheduled maintenance. I don't know what more to say.
Oh yeah for sure. They're not deathtraps or anything. Just, imo, lazily engineered. The one comparison I haven't seen is the rate of fires in accidents in *new* ICE cars. I don't think that's a stat anyone keeps track of, just fires in *all* ICE cars.
It's probably still higher even in new ICE cars, though not by as much.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but this is how all the EVs that I know of are built, and tiny batteries is a lot safer then great big honking cells.
Every model of Toyota prius has used the "thousands of tiny cells" approach to the battery pack, and the early models used those exact cells (Toyota switched to some sort of prismatic cell later, but there's a trade off to that since perfect flatpacking is not a good thing when you need to actively cool the cells).
The alternative to tiny cells is big cells, and those will catch fire much more violently in a crash.
Frankly, the idea that the fire issue is special to Tesla is a beat up: it's an issue to any EV using lithium-ion chemistry. But there are more Teslas out there (going faster, incidentally) then any other kind.
There are not more Teslas on the road, where did you get that idea? For plug in electrics; there have been around 65k Chevy volts sold, though they are a hybrid. Followed by ~60k Nissan Leafs, a pure electric. Tesla is sitting around 30k, along with Toyota Prius plug in hybrids.
The Leaf, which has had no fires in testing or on the road, uses custom built large cells. The Volt as well uses custom cells, and the only fires I can find reported were during crash testing.
I'm also not sure why you think cells designed specifically for cars are more likely to catch fire?
The Tesla packs catch fire simply from being punctured. The Leafs don't catch fire at all.
Hybrids are not EVs. They carry a far lower load of batteries, optimized for an entirely different use case.
An EV has far more batteries because that is it's only source of propulsion. You cannot build "special automotive batteries" beyond armoring the exteriors because lithium is inherently flammable. Ruptured batteries will combust in any oxygen atmosphere.
Small cells are good. Small cells mean minor failures or overtemp conditions can't ignite a few hundred grams of lithium and oxidizer.
The Chevy volt is not special - they just use prismatic batteries, but they also carry far less then a Tesla. Seriously, go look up the batteries you're actually talking about. They are not special and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Tesla approach.
EDIT: I didn't say custom designed would catch fire. I said lithium-ion catches fire. You either make small cells or big cells, but either way if one is punctured it will catch fire. You noted yourself the Leaf caught fire in crash testing - well, that's also the situation which has caused every reported Tesla fire.
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
I don't know where you're getting your information, but this is how all the EVs that I know of are built, and tiny batteries is a lot safer then great big honking cells.
Every model of Toyota prius has used the "thousands of tiny cells" approach to the battery pack, and the early models used those exact cells (Toyota switched to some sort of prismatic cell later, but there's a trade off to that since perfect flatpacking is not a good thing when you need to actively cool the cells).
The alternative to tiny cells is big cells, and those will catch fire much more violently in a crash.
Frankly, the idea that the fire issue is special to Tesla is a beat up: it's an issue to any EV using lithium-ion chemistry. But there are more Teslas out there (going faster, incidentally) then any other kind.
There are not more Teslas on the road, where did you get that idea? For plug in electrics; there have been around 65k Chevy volts sold, though they are a hybrid. Followed by ~60k Nissan Leafs, a pure electric. Tesla is sitting around 30k, along with Toyota Prius plug in hybrids.
The Leaf, which has had no fires in testing or on the road, uses custom built large cells. The Volt as well uses custom cells, and the only fires I can find reported were during crash testing.
I'm also not sure why you think cells designed specifically for cars are more likely to catch fire?
The Tesla packs catch fire simply from being punctured. The Leafs don't catch fire at all.
Hybrids are not EVs. They carry a far lower load of batteries, optimized for an entirely different use case.
An EV has far more batteries because that is it's only source of propulsion. You cannot build "special automotive batteries" beyond armoring the exteriors because lithium is inherently flammable. Ruptured batteries will combust in any oxygen atmosphere.
Small cells are good. Small cells mean minor failures or overtemp conditions can't ignite a few hundred grams of lithium and oxidizer.
The Chevy volt is not special - they just use prismatic batteries, but they also carry far less then a Tesla. Seriously, go look up the batteries you're actually talking about. They are not special and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Tesla approach.
EDIT: I didn't say custom designed would catch fire. I said lithium-ion catches fire. You either make small cells or big cells, but either way if one is punctured it will catch fire. You noted yourself the Leaf caught fire in crash testing - well, that's also the situation which has caused every reported Tesla fire.
And no, it was a Volt that caught fire in test. Leafs have had no fires whatsoever.
regarding EV nomenclature (perilously pedantic):
I included Volts because they are so called "extended range EVs" or "plug in hybrids". The main difference from the classic prius hybrid is that their drive system is completely electric, the ICE only powers a generator when the battery runs low. Operating as a pure electric it still has about half the capacity of a Leaf. They still have the same stresses on the electrical system, just a diminished overall capacity. At any rate, of pure electric vehicles there are still twice as many Leafs as Teslas.
Didn't see your edit until now JBT. Also thanks for the new car fire info. Yeah once gas starts leaking everywhere things don't look so good.
On the topic of charging infrastructure they have said that any manufacturer can use the network if they help with the costs. No one has taken them up on it.
And for advancing EV's as an industry, they have made their patent portfolio open for use for anyone who makes an electric car. What more do you want from them?
The problem is they built their charge stations using their own proprietary standard. For other companies to get involved in it they'd need to either retrofit the tesla stations or leave the industry standard themselves.
Them releasing their patents was a PR stunt. They didn't hold anything that anyone else didn't already have a similar competing patent for. At best, it's a promise to not patent troll the industry, which I can appreciate.
It's not like I expect every company to innovate in their field, but I do get annoyed when people act like their innovators when they aren't. Same feelings for Apple.
Aioua on
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Again, what would you have them do instead?
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
Throw their weight behind 1 of 3 or so other competing standards that seem to come down too... Oh it is the shape of the plug.
Tesla and apple might not have invented much, but the have both made geeky products cool, and then sought to change how the public relates to them by solving fundamental usability issues.
Neither really really did much to change technology, but they help to change the markets. Both, on the whole changed the market for the better too.
Meh. Sometimes they just make another stupid fucking smart watch and people fall all over themselves lusting after the frigging things.
They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Have you considered that they need their plug to be a different shape for safety reasons? If you plugged your current model leaf into a tesla super charger, you would damage your car at the least. Perhaps even start a fire. A leaf that is equipped to deal with the charge level a super charger station puts out can come equipped with an adapter, and absolutly should come so equipped if Nissan chose to participate in the network.
Because all I am reading is that Tesla should conform to lower standards so as to facilitate other manufacturers free riding the charging network out of the goodness of their hearts.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Have you considered that they need their plug to be a different shape for safety reasons? If you plugged your current model leaf into a tesla super charger, you would damage your car at the least. Perhaps even start a fire.
Well... No.
Not really.
The Leaf's SAE J1772 would not have pins near the DC parts of the SAE J1772-2009 Draft plugs the hypothetical Tesla would be using. The unimplemented standard is designed to be reverse compatible with older plugs.
The Leafs would either charge slowly, or simply not at all because the stations are solar powered and don't really need to ever go through standard 110 or 230v A/C stages.
They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Which does not address the other point, that being why leaf owners should be allowed to free ride the system. If Nissan pays in then compatability will be built in.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Which does not address the other point, that being why leaf owners should be allowed to free ride the system. If Nissan pays in then compatability will be built in.
Shrug. I honestly wonder why Tesla doesn't want to force Nissan owners to break out a stupid clunky adapter and then spend half an hour sitting inside a Tesla advert.
These are people who are already sold on the idea of electric cars. Tesla wants to sell non prestig cars that still look better.
Tesla also could have just used the chademo dc hookups everyone else uses, given Tesla owners some key for free use, and charged the rest of the users money.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
edited September 2014
Tesla has specifically stated it is against their philosophy to charge the end user 'at the pump' for use of the system, and the infrastucture for billing isn't even part of the system for Tesla owners, never mind owners of other manufacturers. Tesla wants the other manufacturers to pitch in by adding a flat fee to the sale price of each equipped car for unlimited use. No one else has taken them up on it yet.
Just_Bri_Thanks on
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
At any rate, I don't think the future of EVs will have remote charging stations. Home charging is too convenient. I predict we'll eventually move to a multi-battery model. Rechargeable li-ion for most driving, and slotting in (and potential swapping) a high capacity non-rechargeable for road trips. Aluminum-air batteries seem a likely candidate. And much easier to set up a swap station, no special infra. Just need some dudes to lift the things.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I mean, c'mon, this just looks like a cartoon wang:
I feel like it loses something in translation to plush toy
The fact that it has real life googly eyes is what gives it all the personality.
-edit-
Also, non-parasitic! These little guys just tool around looking for stray particles of organic matter to eat, they are not leeches despite the shape.
Unlike worms that don't actually regenerate into two worms if cut in two, flatworms can - but not just if cut in two. The smallest observed bit of a flatworm that was able to regenerate into an whole flat worm was 1/279th. Whilst one regenerating from that small a piece might not be able to do so - flatworms regenerating from larger pieces are also able to retain their memories, even if the bit doing so isn't the head.
I mean, c'mon, this just looks like a cartoon wang:
[snip]
I feel like it loses something in translation to plush toy
[snip]
The fact that it has real life googly eyes is what gives it all the personality.
-edit-
Also, non-parasitic! These little guys just tool around looking for stray particles of organic matter to eat, they are not leeches despite the shape.
Unlike worms that don't actually regenerate into two worms if cut in two, flatworms can - but not just if cut in two. The smallest observed bit of a flatworm that was able to regenerate into an whole flat worm was 1/279th. Whilst one regenerating from that small a piece might not be able to do so - flatworms regenerating from larger pieces are also able to retain their memories, even if the bit doing so isn't the head.
Whaaaaaaaaat is this, that's crazy. The fact that they remember their tolerance for open spaces especially, since with something like light you could think maybe they get a flatworm suntan or somesuch.
I didn't know ignition stopped counting as igniting.
It is clearly smoking, and after the jump cut you can see that the insides of the punctures are burnt.
All it has to do to start a fire is get hot enough to ignite something else, like wire wrappings, dust, fluid, ect.
Are Tesla batteries more prone to ignition when punctured? Yes. Duh. Congrats, you've discovered that batteries with higher potential energy have higher potential energy!
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
To do that you are looking at the potential energy of a small IED in a car. We do that already, we call them internal combustion engines. I'm willing to sit on an EV large enough to do that, and I won't call it bad engineering for that being the case.
That said, I'd also be making a killing building custom battery boxes out of aramids for people.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
After that one fire on a highway (which did not enter the passenger spaces until emergecy services cut through the fire wall) the they even upped the armor plating and installed more deflectors.
As for the guy who ran through a wall and into a tree, I don't of any amount of precautions you can take versus fire for events that destroy the car.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
What about the lifespan of the batteries? That's always been my hesitation. I mean, right now I'm driving a 12 year old Toyota with 150,000 miles on it. Considering my cell phone batteries barely lasted two years before I had to replace them, I'd imagine that means I'd have to replace a car's batteries about as often. Wouldn't that get crazy-expensive?
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
Oh, I agree. However the Nissan Leaf gets you 126 miles per charge, and the Tesla Roadster gets you 300 (if you buy the package for it and only drive 55 mph).
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
EVs get a bonus that gas cars don't have by being able to be filled at home.
You always have to go out to get gas, so you want a 300+ mile range so you don't have to stop all the time.
With an EV, your range is just how far you go before you return home again. You stop at home all the time regardless.
It's a different way of thinking about it. Going road tripping is the biggest issue there.
Battery lifespan is the sticking point, it's why most people with EVs are leasing them.
One can only hope SCIENCE can find new technologies to improve these things. This is the SCIENCE thread after all.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Are there any promising, not entirely conceptual potential breakthroughs on the horizon for battery tech? Shoving as much energy as possible into as small a container as possible without creating an unstable bomb is a hell of a task, but it seems like, as a very casual observer, the lithium angle has been squeezed nearly dry.
Incremental improvements are fantastic, but the impression is one of diminishing returns without a clear next step.
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
Oh, I agree. However the Nissan Leaf gets you 126 miles per charge, and the Tesla Roadster gets you 300 (if you buy the package for it and only drive 55 mph).
Yeah, that Leaf range is just lol. Basically, you cannot take it more than 60 miles from your house. I could effectively never leave the county with it. I drive to work, my coworker who lives in the opposite direction says, "Hey, wanna get a drink after work?" and I have to do math to figure out if I can make it home afterward.
ElJeffe on
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
Oh, I agree. However the Nissan Leaf gets you 126 miles per charge, and the Tesla Roadster gets you 300 (if you buy the package for it and only drive 55 mph).
Yeah, that Leaf range is just lol. Basically, you cannot take it more than 60 miles from your house. I could effectively never leave the county with it. I drive to work, my coworker who lives in the opposite direction says, "Hey, wanna get a drink after work?" and I have to do math to figure out if I can make it home afterward.
Depends where you live I guess. Also it's more like a 80 mile rage. 126 is their "miles per gallon" rating. Some weird formula the EPA cooked up, it's kind of useless.
FWIW, living in the Seattle area the range has not been a problem for me.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I mean, I guess if you get used to it and change the way you think about driving, it's perfectly viable. Most days it would be fine for me, too. But on a day when I go to work, run a couple errands during lunch, have to pick the kids up from daycare, then remember that I have to stop by the pharmacy and pick up a prescription? Yeah, I'm not making it back home.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
Yah I don't expect them to really start taking of until they can get a 200 mile range model for under $20k. If anyone can pull that off they're gonna sell a million of them.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Not electric, but I've been keeping an on the Elio. My dumb state will consider it a motorcycle and require a helmet, so I'd probably not pull the trigger now. But, does seem pretty interesting in the lines of high mileage transportation. Plus it's supposed to only be sticker price of $6800.
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
The problem with only-at-home charging is that it makes the car completely infeasible in some fairly common scenarios. If you live out in the country driving over a hundred miles in a day may be a weekly thing when you go buy groceries. If you live in a dense urban area you may well have two hours plus of commute driving in a day. I'm not sure how the battery power works out when you're sitting in stop-and-go traffic on the highway for 45 minutes running the AC and radio but not actually moving much, but I know I wouldn't want to have to worry about it.
Besides which, there's no reason for only-at-home recharging to be a thing besides companies being assholes. If there were a standard charging socket it would be a minimal investment for businesses to provide parking lot charging stations with built-in payment and/or free-with-validation systems. A number of companies around the research triangle where I work have a few free charging stations for employees with electric cars. Unlike gas stations or battery-swapping-stations there's next to no infrastructure required to offer a recharge station to people in your parking lot, and if plug-in vehicles are sufficiently popular then it becomes an easy selling point over your competition. If I'm choosing between a couple of movie theaters or restaurants to go to and one of them lets me charge up my car while I'm inside, I'm going to go to that one.
If nobody has set up a service yet where a truck comes out to you on the side of the road to charge up your flat battery because you forgot to charge/didn't charge enough, I would be amazed if that doesn't become a thing in the next decade.
PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
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Just_Bri_ThanksSeething with ragefrom a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPAregular
Ev perform best in stop and go conditions because regenerative braking.
...and when you are done with that; take a folding
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Doesn't charging a battery take a not-insignificant amount of time though, which would kind of invalidate the "give me some charge because I ran out" scenario? I've had AAA come out because my dumb ass ran out of gas, and it took five minutes of work (and cost me about $60). If they now have to sit out there for an hour to give you the ten miles you need to get home, that's sounding pretty pricey.
edit: Looking at the Elio, and how the hell does that get classified as a motorcycle? Because it has three wheels?
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Mostly, I'm upset with the way he's handled Tesla. I don't like the image they put out of being exciting and innovative when their actual engineering is blasé and hasn't really contributed to the development of EVs.
Their batteries, for instance, are just row after row of these tiny batteries (or similar), unlike other EV manufacturers who are building application-specific batteries. Which is why they catch fire so easily. Not a problem with Volts and Leafs, which have purpose built batteries and no fires outside of crash testing to date.
The biggest thing they could have done to advance EVs was to help build charging infrastructure. Which they did, but's it's locked down for Tesla use only.
Hyperloop is a joke made mostly of tech buzzwords.
Paypal is incredibly scummy but he hasn't been involved with it for quite some time. I dunno what it was like back then.
So yeah. I just don't trust the guy. I think he's more interested in making money than advancing the industries he dabbles in. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but people treat him like he's John Galt meets Jesus Christ and it bugs me.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I don't know where you're getting your information, but this is how all the EVs that I know of are built, and tiny batteries is a lot safer then great big honking cells.
Every model of Toyota prius has used the "thousands of tiny cells" approach to the battery pack, and the early models used those exact cells (Toyota switched to some sort of prismatic cell later, but there's a trade off to that since perfect flatpacking is not a good thing when you need to actively cool the cells).
The alternative to tiny cells is big cells, and those will catch fire much more violently in a crash.
Frankly, the idea that the fire issue is special to Tesla is a beat up: it's an issue to any EV using lithium-ion chemistry. But there are more Teslas out there (going faster, incidentally) then any other kind.
Not to defend him - many who have worked around and under him have apparently noted he has more of the negative personality traits associated with say, Steve Jobs, rather than as many of the positives - but there are a few things that can be clarified here.
Most of his companies' engineering projects are indeed very simple in their overall design. There's nothing particularly special or groundbreaking about the AC Induction motors or the off-the-shelf cells used to assemble the battery packs for Tesla's cars, and plenty have said the Merlin engines used to drive the Falcon family of rockets are simply the nicest V-2 engines you can get your hands on. Hell, the Hyperloop concept is just a cheaped-out version of a vacuum tube transport. However, there's something to be said for simple machines that perform exactly as advertised; this is only amplified when they are also [relatively] inexpensive. The fact that his companies have done this consistently is what's afforded him the spotlight he currently enjoys.
There are not more Teslas on the road, where did you get that idea? For plug in electrics; there have been around 65k Chevy volts sold, though they are a hybrid. Followed by ~60k Nissan Leafs, a pure electric. Tesla is sitting around 30k, along with Toyota Prius plug in hybrids.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_vehicles_in_the_United_States
The Leaf, which has had no fires in testing or on the road, uses custom built large cells. The Volt as well uses custom cells, and the only fires I can find reported were during crash testing.
I'm also not sure why you think cells designed specifically for cars are more likely to catch fire?
The Tesla packs catch fire simply from being punctured. The Leafs don't catch fire at all.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Tesla seems to have responded thoroughly to all incidents and the Highway Traffic Safety Admin has no issues with them. Software upgrades and hardware upgrades are available free of charge on next software update or scheduled maintenance. I don't know what more to say.
On the topic of charging infrastructure they have said that any manufacturer can use the network if they help with the costs. No one has taken them up on it.
And for advancing EV's as an industry, they have made their patent portfolio open for use for anyone who makes an electric car. What more do you want from them?
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Oh yeah for sure. They're not deathtraps or anything. Just, imo, lazily engineered. The one comparison I haven't seen is the rate of fires in accidents in *new* ICE cars. I don't think that's a stat anyone keeps track of, just fires in *all* ICE cars.
It's probably still higher even in new ICE cars, though not by as much.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/research/nfpa reports/vehicles/osautomobilefires.pdf
Edit: Hell, a new model of Chevy had 30 engine fires before it got a recall. I think Tesla is doing gangbusters on this shit.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Hybrids are not EVs. They carry a far lower load of batteries, optimized for an entirely different use case.
An EV has far more batteries because that is it's only source of propulsion. You cannot build "special automotive batteries" beyond armoring the exteriors because lithium is inherently flammable. Ruptured batteries will combust in any oxygen atmosphere.
Small cells are good. Small cells mean minor failures or overtemp conditions can't ignite a few hundred grams of lithium and oxidizer.
The Chevy volt is not special - they just use prismatic batteries, but they also carry far less then a Tesla. Seriously, go look up the batteries you're actually talking about. They are not special and there is nothing inherently wrong with the Tesla approach.
EDIT: I didn't say custom designed would catch fire. I said lithium-ion catches fire. You either make small cells or big cells, but either way if one is punctured it will catch fire. You noted yourself the Leaf caught fire in crash testing - well, that's also the situation which has caused every reported Tesla fire.
Just being punctured does't make them catch fire.
Here's a dude stabbing the shit out of a leaf cell without it igniting:
To be fair, here's the same thing with an 18650 cell:
And no, it was a Volt that caught fire in test. Leafs have had no fires whatsoever.
regarding EV nomenclature (perilously pedantic):
Didn't see your edit until now JBT. Also thanks for the new car fire info. Yeah once gas starts leaking everywhere things don't look so good.
The problem is they built their charge stations using their own proprietary standard. For other companies to get involved in it they'd need to either retrofit the tesla stations or leave the industry standard themselves.
Them releasing their patents was a PR stunt. They didn't hold anything that anyone else didn't already have a similar competing patent for. At best, it's a promise to not patent troll the industry, which I can appreciate.
It's not like I expect every company to innovate in their field, but I do get annoyed when people act like their innovators when they aren't. Same feelings for Apple.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
that is -so- cool
Throw their weight behind 1 of 3 or so other competing standards that seem to come down too... Oh it is the shape of the plug.
Tesla and apple might not have invented much, but the have both made geeky products cool, and then sought to change how the public relates to them by solving fundamental usability issues.
Neither really really did much to change technology, but they help to change the markets. Both, on the whole changed the market for the better too.
Meh. Sometimes they just make another stupid fucking smart watch and people fall all over themselves lusting after the frigging things.
Because all I am reading is that Tesla should conform to lower standards so as to facilitate other manufacturers free riding the charging network out of the goodness of their hearts.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Well... No.
Not really.
The Leaf's SAE J1772 would not have pins near the DC parts of the SAE J1772-2009 Draft plugs the hypothetical Tesla would be using. The unimplemented standard is designed to be reverse compatible with older plugs.
The Leafs would either charge slowly, or simply not at all because the stations are solar powered and don't really need to ever go through standard 110 or 230v A/C stages.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Shrug. I honestly wonder why Tesla doesn't want to force Nissan owners to break out a stupid clunky adapter and then spend half an hour sitting inside a Tesla advert.
These are people who are already sold on the idea of electric cars. Tesla wants to sell non prestig cars that still look better.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
At any rate, I don't think the future of EVs will have remote charging stations. Home charging is too convenient. I predict we'll eventually move to a multi-battery model. Rechargeable li-ion for most driving, and slotting in (and potential swapping) a high capacity non-rechargeable for road trips. Aluminum-air batteries seem a likely candidate. And much easier to set up a swap station, no special infra. Just need some dudes to lift the things.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Unlike worms that don't actually regenerate into two worms if cut in two, flatworms can - but not just if cut in two. The smallest observed bit of a flatworm that was able to regenerate into an whole flat worm was 1/279th. Whilst one regenerating from that small a piece might not be able to do so - flatworms regenerating from larger pieces are also able to retain their memories, even if the bit doing so isn't the head.
Started reading about flatworms, got to the body parasites part, realized The Strain is real and we will all die soon.
I didn't know ignition stopped counting as igniting.
It is clearly smoking, and after the jump cut you can see that the insides of the punctures are burnt.
All it has to do to start a fire is get hot enough to ignite something else, like wire wrappings, dust, fluid, ect.
Are Tesla batteries more prone to ignition when punctured? Yes. Duh. Congrats, you've discovered that batteries with higher potential energy have higher potential energy!
Look, for electric cars to be viable they have to be able to go further than 250-300mi on a charge. Without that, its a city car in a world where not a lot of people can afford a city car and a distance car.
To do that you are looking at the potential energy of a small IED in a car. We do that already, we call them internal combustion engines. I'm willing to sit on an EV large enough to do that, and I won't call it bad engineering for that being the case.
That said, I'd also be making a killing building custom battery boxes out of aramids for people.
As for the guy who ran through a wall and into a tree, I don't of any amount of precautions you can take versus fire for events that destroy the car.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
250-300 miles is right on the low end of standard range for a car. That's perfectly acceptable if you can conveniently pull over most anywhere and "fill" your "tank" in five minutes or less. It's that "if" that's a sticking point.
Oh, I agree. However the Nissan Leaf gets you 126 miles per charge, and the Tesla Roadster gets you 300 (if you buy the package for it and only drive 55 mph).
EVs get a bonus that gas cars don't have by being able to be filled at home.
You always have to go out to get gas, so you want a 300+ mile range so you don't have to stop all the time.
With an EV, your range is just how far you go before you return home again. You stop at home all the time regardless.
It's a different way of thinking about it. Going road tripping is the biggest issue there.
Battery lifespan is the sticking point, it's why most people with EVs are leasing them.
One can only hope SCIENCE can find new technologies to improve these things. This is the SCIENCE thread after all.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Incremental improvements are fantastic, but the impression is one of diminishing returns without a clear next step.
Yeah, that Leaf range is just lol. Basically, you cannot take it more than 60 miles from your house. I could effectively never leave the county with it. I drive to work, my coworker who lives in the opposite direction says, "Hey, wanna get a drink after work?" and I have to do math to figure out if I can make it home afterward.
Depends where you live I guess. Also it's more like a 80 mile rage. 126 is their "miles per gallon" rating. Some weird formula the EPA cooked up, it's kind of useless.
FWIW, living in the Seattle area the range has not been a problem for me.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I mean, I guess if you get used to it and change the way you think about driving, it's perfectly viable. Most days it would be fine for me, too. But on a day when I go to work, run a couple errands during lunch, have to pick the kids up from daycare, then remember that I have to stop by the pharmacy and pick up a prescription? Yeah, I'm not making it back home.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
http://blog.caranddriver.com/tesla-expands-eight-year-infinite-mile-model-s-battery-warranty-to-evs-powertrain/
They are proactive about battery issues and will contact owners who have underperforming batteries for replacement.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
Besides which, there's no reason for only-at-home recharging to be a thing besides companies being assholes. If there were a standard charging socket it would be a minimal investment for businesses to provide parking lot charging stations with built-in payment and/or free-with-validation systems. A number of companies around the research triangle where I work have a few free charging stations for employees with electric cars. Unlike gas stations or battery-swapping-stations there's next to no infrastructure required to offer a recharge station to people in your parking lot, and if plug-in vehicles are sufficiently popular then it becomes an easy selling point over your competition. If I'm choosing between a couple of movie theaters or restaurants to go to and one of them lets me charge up my car while I'm inside, I'm going to go to that one.
If nobody has set up a service yet where a truck comes out to you on the side of the road to charge up your flat battery because you forgot to charge/didn't charge enough, I would be amazed if that doesn't become a thing in the next decade.
chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
edit: Looking at the Elio, and how the hell does that get classified as a motorcycle? Because it has three wheels?