My point about comparing the cost to the budget of the county was that $1M is not an insignificant amount of money that cannot be used to do tangible good, regardless of whether it is small compared to the GDP of the US. And I wasn't advocating removing money from the economy, just shifting it towards different priorities.
But I have to concede the point about not putting a price on protecting the integrity of the rule of law, if I missed that earlier, my bad. I suppose it's just frustration at having to deal with the fact that not only did he defraud his constituents and do massive harm to this country, we now have to foot the bill for his retirement, semi-shitty conditions for him though it may be. It makes me sad to think that the gobs of money we spend on prison for these jerks could be spent more positive pursuits. Prison is just such a clumsy and inefficient tool, but I suppose it's the only one we've got for now.
My point about comparing the cost to the budget of the county was that $1M is not an insignificant amount of money that cannot be used to do tangible good, regardless of whether it is small compared to the GDP of the US. And I wasn't advocating removing money from the economy, just shifting it towards different priorities.
But I have to concede the point about not putting a price on protecting the integrity of the rule of law, if I missed that earlier, my bad. I suppose it's just frustration at having to deal with the fact that not only did he defraud his constituents and do massive harm to this country, we now have to foot the bill for his retirement, semi-shitty conditions for him though it may be. It makes me sad to think that the gobs of money we spend on prison for these jerks could be spent more positive pursuits. Prison is just such a clumsy and inefficient tool, but I suppose it's the only one we've got for now.
I don't agree that it's clumsy or expensive. It's not footing the bill for them - it's footing the bill for you. It's a means of maintaining civil society, protecting it from criminal behavior while (ideally) also minimizing harm done to the criminals, their friends & families. Partly this is for ethical reason, partly it's for practical reasons - violent & brutal justice systems can & will foster violent & brutal public behavior, and that gets pretty destructive pretty quickly (not to mention expensive).
There is a lot of room for criticism of any given prison system's implementation, but the concept itself is extremely good.
I mean, I am not out in the street for this guy but I still think that it is always important to think about why we, as a society, are doing stuff and I really don't like "jail is for bad people".
Jail should be a tool not a punishment.
I have always considered the tools we choose to utilize in order to punish white collar crime to be the least effective or tangible possible when compared to other crimes. The Governor of Virginia was not a man in desperate straits nor caught up in a moment of passion where his judgement was momentarily impaired or his capacity for rational thought curtailed. He wasn't being driven to this by circumstances beyond his control or influence, he was the one driving. Every day he woke up and faced a choice; of not continuing to perform criminal acts and to undo what crimes he had previously committed, and doing so would in no way harm him materially. Instead he continuously and actively chose to engage in a life of crime and made that active choice every day for years. He performed these criminal acts in cold blood, with malice aforethought and with malice as an afterthought. While having a roof placed over his head, without cost. While being paid a guaranteed annual salary of $175,000 per year for 4 years with pension benefits; meaning he earned nearly 3x median household income in Virginia and more than 5x what a Virginia family of seven like his would qualify as impoverished. He consciously and repeatedly chose to criminally enrich himself even further at the expense of the people to whom he was elected to serve. Pretending that this can be rectified by a civil fine takes it from a criminal breach of the most foundational ethical concerns of the holders of public office, to an accounting problem that needs to be sufficiently hedged against.
+10
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited January 2014
Just the fact that McDonnell gets the "WELL I DON'T KNOW IF JAIL WILL WORK FOR HIM" benefit is exactly the reason they need to throw his fucking ass in the pokey until he strokes out from the prison food.
He is not a special fucking snowflake.
It's almost like we would have codified the idea that all people are equal before the eyes of the law somewhere.
tbh, if I had to pick a sort of criminal to throw into jail more it would be people guilty of this manner of offense. net damage to society is way higher than some guy selling weed on a street corner. not only that, but it's just such a violation of the public trust all my egalitarian desires suddenly vanish. bad precident to be sure, but I'm only human.
If it turns out he really did use state employees as unwitting guinea pigs, then 20 years is not harsh enough. that is some egregious bullshit right there.
This is madness. Fine him, throw him in jail for 15 to 20 and then if he gets out and is still wealthy or becomes wealthy again in his mid 70s then that's none of anyone's fucking business because he has paid his debt to society.
It says a lot about the state of things how surprised I am at the number of agrees my post on the first page got. When writing it I expected to be told I was being ridiculous because the general perception I get is that people shrug at political corruption.
I think it's time we got a change of perspective on the issue. If you learned that he'd been taking money from the Russians or the Chinese in exchange for governmental influence people would be calling it treason, the fact he was doing it for a corporation really doesn't make it much better. At it's core the act remains the same, while in a position where he's expected to act in the best interests of the people who elected him, instead he was taking money to act in someone elses interests.
Anyone who doesn't think it's worth the time, money or effort to throw this piece of shit in prison for what he's done must just be failing to understand his crime. Political corruption is a cancer in our governments that affects us all. It means our governments are not being run to benefit us, it means our schools, hospitals, roads and public services are suffering so some rich people can get even richer. There are few crimes that have a more detrimental effect on our society, no single act of murder or theft can compare.
The idea that it isn't worth punishing this guy and people like him to the fullest extent of the law is madness to me, it speaks volumes about how successful politicians, bankers and other white collar criminals have been in covering their tracks.
The most awkward instance came when the first lady asked for help getting vehicles for her adult children, they said. One of those people said that after the Smith Mountain Lake vacation, when the governor’s sons drove Williams’s Range Rover home, the first lady asked whether the boys could take the vehicle back to the University of Virginia to drive around campus. He demurred.
Shortly after, the first lady called with a new idea, according to the person: Could he give her money to help Cailin buy a used Ford Explorer? Again, he declined
The balls of some people.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The most awkward instance came when the first lady asked for help getting vehicles for her adult children, they said. One of those people said that after the Smith Mountain Lake vacation, when the governor’s sons drove Williams’s Range Rover home, the first lady asked whether the boys could take the vehicle back to the University of Virginia to drive around campus. He demurred.
Shortly after, the first lady called with a new idea, according to the person: Could he give her money to help Cailin buy a used Ford Explorer? Again, he declined
Look I'm trying to educate you, I mean you for instance are in jail, should you get convicted of being syphon you'd go to prison. See you learn something new everyday!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The most awkward instance came when the first lady asked for help getting vehicles for her adult children, they said. One of those people said that after the Smith Mountain Lake vacation, when the governor’s sons drove Williams’s Range Rover home, the first lady asked whether the boys could take the vehicle back to the University of Virginia to drive around campus. He demurred.
Shortly after, the first lady called with a new idea, according to the person: Could he give her money to help Cailin buy a used Ford Explorer? Again, he declined
The balls of some people.
I think that Maureen might actually be mentally ill. And I don't mean that figuratively. Read that article, and at the very end what she says to Williams (the guy who was buying them shit so they would shill his company) when she returns her multi-thousand dollar dress after learning that he's been cooperating with the feds in order to save his ass from the apocalyptic shitstorm about to hit the governor and his wife:
“Please know that we cherish our friendship with you and look forward to many more wonderful memories together ahead!” she wrote in a note to Williams when returning her designer dresses. “XOXO! Maureen McDonnell”
I have to believe that she has some form of dementia for what transpired to make any kind of sense. No rational human could look at what was happening with their life (up to their eyeballs in debt, but still racking up thousands in credit card charges, having not one, but two vacation homes that they couldn't afford the mortgage on, paying for their kids' college, an extravagant wedding for their daughter b]$15,000 just for fucking catering[/b, etc) and think, "Oh this rich guy who really doesn't want another of his investments to tank can help us out! Problem solved! There is surely nothing morally or legally bankrupt with that plan. Nope, no siree."
Because seriously, if this is just a thing that happens... how did we come to this?
...This story gets crazier and crazier as it's dug further into:
So, Star Scientific isn't really even a pharmaceuticals company - it's just the most recent shell company owned by Williams, and was pushing cheap cigarettes for quite a while in order to fund development of anti-smoking drugs. Like, lolwut?
These drugs & dietary supplements haven't gone through FDA approval, and the FDA has repeatedly told Star Scientific that it is illegal for them to be sold - but the company just shrugged and kept selling them anyway. As far as I can tell, there have been no consequences for this.
>.<
This is one half of why McDonnell was so important to Williams - the governor's office could keep the FDA off of his back. The other half was marketing, but not in the traditional sense: Williams was counting on stock speculation as a result of his relationship with the governor (they tried to make inroads with a local university for the same effect, but the uni wouldn't accept Williams's bribes. All credit to them).
Man, it's fucked.
The Ender on
With Love and Courage
+1
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
So, this is a troubling development, for anyone still watching this case:
McDonnell's lawyers have been harping on Citizen's United - and that specific quote by Kennedy - arguing that bribery charges effectively block the 'free speech' that the 'gifts' accepted by the governor represent. This not only signals a clear intent on behalf of his defense to appeal to the Supreme Court if their clients are found guilty, but to stake their case on the idea that no amount of infiltration by private groups with a lot of money counts as corruption. It's just 'speech'.
Courts work by precedent, and this would be a rather poor precedent to be set if it works (and bets right now are that, yes, it will work).
The judge will be getting the arguments formally presented to him on Monday and making the decision as to whether or not the case should be dismissed.
Cross your fingers and prepare to welcome your corporate overlords into your hearts.
(No, really)
With Love and Courage
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
It's my understanding that the recent awful ruling makes the kind of bribery McDonnell received the only still existing form of corruption.
It's my understanding that the recent awful ruling makes the kind of bribery McDonnell received the only still existing form of corruption.
That's basically what the prosecutors have said, noting that none of the 'gifts' received came in the form of campaign contributions, but McDonnell's defense (backed-up by five former attorney generals of Virginia) has argued that there's no difference (or, at least, no difference that the governor should've been expected to appreciate).
I'm confused about the items McDonnell is charged with:
Reports keep mentioning that he stole stuff from the governor's mansion (I'm not sure what 'stuff' involves or how expensive it was. Presumably we're not talking about pens & toilet paper?), but it doesn't look like anyone is charging him for theft.
...Is that somehow just rolled into the bribery charges, or...?
Maybe the prosecutors just couldn't give a shit about the theft?
I knew his wife was going to be the one tossed under the bus to save his skin. He foreshadowed this move earlier in the year by I believe noting her direct involvement in things like the watch bribe.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The Virginia way takes another hit, god I can't wait for that awful phrase to bite the dust because as far as I can tell, it's means "bless your heart, don't think and let your betters do as they please."
I really do believe that the two of them thought their selves so invincible and so above everyone else that they honestly didn't think they were doing anything wrong, and if some people thought they were that it wasn't anything that bad and were totally shocked that yes, they were doing illegal shit you can go to prison for. Which just makes this more enjoyable for me.
I've never been a fan of the Romney's on any level but for Maureen McDonnell to try and peddle that fucking tobacco snake oil they were shilling off on Ann Romney because why, it would just fix her right up, that's just awful.
Maybe this will light a fir . . . . hahahahahaha can't even finished the sentence. Our dumbass legislature, which is in the hands of assholes that are more loyal to ALEC, will continue to insist that the state doesn't need tougher ethics laws, to keep them them from screwing over their constituents for personal gain.
Posts
But I have to concede the point about not putting a price on protecting the integrity of the rule of law, if I missed that earlier, my bad. I suppose it's just frustration at having to deal with the fact that not only did he defraud his constituents and do massive harm to this country, we now have to foot the bill for his retirement, semi-shitty conditions for him though it may be. It makes me sad to think that the gobs of money we spend on prison for these jerks could be spent more positive pursuits. Prison is just such a clumsy and inefficient tool, but I suppose it's the only one we've got for now.
I don't agree that it's clumsy or expensive. It's not footing the bill for them - it's footing the bill for you. It's a means of maintaining civil society, protecting it from criminal behavior while (ideally) also minimizing harm done to the criminals, their friends & families. Partly this is for ethical reason, partly it's for practical reasons - violent & brutal justice systems can & will foster violent & brutal public behavior, and that gets pretty destructive pretty quickly (not to mention expensive).
There is a lot of room for criticism of any given prison system's implementation, but the concept itself is extremely good.
I have always considered the tools we choose to utilize in order to punish white collar crime to be the least effective or tangible possible when compared to other crimes. The Governor of Virginia was not a man in desperate straits nor caught up in a moment of passion where his judgement was momentarily impaired or his capacity for rational thought curtailed. He wasn't being driven to this by circumstances beyond his control or influence, he was the one driving. Every day he woke up and faced a choice; of not continuing to perform criminal acts and to undo what crimes he had previously committed, and doing so would in no way harm him materially. Instead he continuously and actively chose to engage in a life of crime and made that active choice every day for years. He performed these criminal acts in cold blood, with malice aforethought and with malice as an afterthought. While having a roof placed over his head, without cost. While being paid a guaranteed annual salary of $175,000 per year for 4 years with pension benefits; meaning he earned nearly 3x median household income in Virginia and more than 5x what a Virginia family of seven like his would qualify as impoverished. He consciously and repeatedly chose to criminally enrich himself even further at the expense of the people to whom he was elected to serve. Pretending that this can be rectified by a civil fine takes it from a criminal breach of the most foundational ethical concerns of the holders of public office, to an accounting problem that needs to be sufficiently hedged against.
He is not a special fucking snowflake.
It's almost like we would have codified the idea that all people are equal before the eyes of the law somewhere.
I think it's time we got a change of perspective on the issue. If you learned that he'd been taking money from the Russians or the Chinese in exchange for governmental influence people would be calling it treason, the fact he was doing it for a corporation really doesn't make it much better. At it's core the act remains the same, while in a position where he's expected to act in the best interests of the people who elected him, instead he was taking money to act in someone elses interests.
Anyone who doesn't think it's worth the time, money or effort to throw this piece of shit in prison for what he's done must just be failing to understand his crime. Political corruption is a cancer in our governments that affects us all. It means our governments are not being run to benefit us, it means our schools, hospitals, roads and public services are suffering so some rich people can get even richer. There are few crimes that have a more detrimental effect on our society, no single act of murder or theft can compare.
The idea that it isn't worth punishing this guy and people like him to the fullest extent of the law is madness to me, it speaks volumes about how successful politicians, bankers and other white collar criminals have been in covering their tracks.
The balls of some people.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Man I can't wait to see them go to jail.
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
pleasepaypreacher.net
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
pleasepaypreacher.net
When I read this all I heard in my internal monologue was:
"Illusions Michael. A trick is something a whore does for money...or candy!"
I think that Maureen might actually be mentally ill. And I don't mean that figuratively. Read that article, and at the very end what she says to Williams (the guy who was buying them shit so they would shill his company) when she returns her multi-thousand dollar dress after learning that he's been cooperating with the feds in order to save his ass from the apocalyptic shitstorm about to hit the governor and his wife:
I have to believe that she has some form of dementia for what transpired to make any kind of sense. No rational human could look at what was happening with their life (up to their eyeballs in debt, but still racking up thousands in credit card charges, having not one, but two vacation homes that they couldn't afford the mortgage on, paying for their kids' college, an extravagant wedding for their daughter b]$15,000 just for fucking catering[/b, etc) and think, "Oh this rich guy who really doesn't want another of his investments to tank can help us out! Problem solved! There is surely nothing morally or legally bankrupt with that plan. Nope, no siree."
Because seriously, if this is just a thing that happens... how did we come to this?
You can be sentenced to jail, usually for terms less than a year
So, not just for awaiting trial
Gd it it's too hard to do the rolling smiley on the phobe
pleasepaypreacher.net
These are hard times, folks. Everybody's gotta pitch in & make sacrifices.
So, Star Scientific isn't really even a pharmaceuticals company - it's just the most recent shell company owned by Williams, and was pushing cheap cigarettes for quite a while in order to fund development of anti-smoking drugs. Like, lolwut?
These drugs & dietary supplements haven't gone through FDA approval, and the FDA has repeatedly told Star Scientific that it is illegal for them to be sold - but the company just shrugged and kept selling them anyway. As far as I can tell, there have been no consequences for this.
>.<
This is one half of why McDonnell was so important to Williams - the governor's office could keep the FDA off of his back. The other half was marketing, but not in the traditional sense: Williams was counting on stock speculation as a result of his relationship with the governor (they tried to make inroads with a local university for the same effect, but the uni wouldn't accept Williams's bribes. All credit to them).
Man, it's fucked.
Though every politician is as corrupt as McDonnell, right?
So, this is a troubling development, for anyone still watching this case:
McDonnell's lawyers have been harping on Citizen's United - and that specific quote by Kennedy - arguing that bribery charges effectively block the 'free speech' that the 'gifts' accepted by the governor represent. This not only signals a clear intent on behalf of his defense to appeal to the Supreme Court if their clients are found guilty, but to stake their case on the idea that no amount of infiltration by private groups with a lot of money counts as corruption. It's just 'speech'.
Courts work by precedent, and this would be a rather poor precedent to be set if it works (and bets right now are that, yes, it will work).
The judge will be getting the arguments formally presented to him on Monday and making the decision as to whether or not the case should be dismissed.
Cross your fingers and prepare to welcome your corporate overlords into your hearts.
(No, really)
That's basically what the prosecutors have said, noting that none of the 'gifts' received came in the form of campaign contributions, but McDonnell's defense (backed-up by five former attorney generals of Virginia) has argued that there's no difference (or, at least, no difference that the governor should've been expected to appreciate).
"Look, she did it! You can't PROVE that I was involved just because I'm her husband! Leave me outta this!"
Family. Nothing is more important*.
*Well, aside from keeping yourself from being convicted of bribery & corruption. Then fuck that dumb 'family' bullshit.
Well this one takes the cake.
Reports keep mentioning that he stole stuff from the governor's mansion (I'm not sure what 'stuff' involves or how expensive it was. Presumably we're not talking about pens & toilet paper?), but it doesn't look like anyone is charging him for theft.
...Is that somehow just rolled into the bribery charges, or...?
Maybe the prosecutors just couldn't give a shit about the theft?
"Pallets worth" was how it was described.
*if said values include throwing your family under the bus**
**which it does
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
pleasepaypreacher.net
Welcome to Ron Blawhatthefuckeverovich land Bobby!
pleasepaypreacher.net
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
pleasepaypreacher.net
PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
I've never been a fan of the Romney's on any level but for Maureen McDonnell to try and peddle that fucking tobacco snake oil they were shilling off on Ann Romney because why, it would just fix her right up, that's just awful.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.