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[Tales of] Your Mom - Best Dog Is Back

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Guns are OP as fuck in terms of a ranged character moveset. I mean, Ludger makes Hubert look weak-sauce.

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  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    On Symphonia, I'd just like to repeat what some of the others have said. It is similar to a lot of the JRPGs I've played in that it starts out with the formula. The world is in peril, the helpless holy maiden has to go repair it, but someone has to handle the violence so the male lead winds up tagging along and swatting monsters away from her. But also like a lot of the JRPGs I've played, accomplishing the stated main goal constitutes at most a third of the plot, and actually closer to a quarter of it. Then the other shoe drops, everything goes wrong somehow, you discover what's really up with the world, you learn about facets of every character you wouldn't have thought existed (Zelos from Tales of Symphonia is one of my favorite RPG characters of all time), and so on.

    The whole "gather the four macguffins and do the thing that saves the world" trope is so long dead that you can be sure that any reasonably modern application of it is there only to set up a subversion at the end of it.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Kupi wrote: »
    On Symphonia, I'd just like to repeat what some of the others have said. It is similar to a lot of the JRPGs I've played in that it starts out with the formula. The world is in peril, the helpless holy maiden has to go repair it, but someone has to handle the violence so the male lead winds up tagging along and swatting monsters away from her. But also like a lot of the JRPGs I've played, accomplishing the stated main goal constitutes at most a third of the plot, and actually closer to a quarter of it. Then the other shoe drops, everything goes wrong somehow, you discover what's really up with the world, you learn about facets of every character you wouldn't have thought existed (Zelos from Tales of Symphonia is one of my favorite RPG characters of all time), and so on.

    The whole "gather the four macguffins and do the thing that saves the world" trope is so long dead that you can be sure that any reasonably modern application of it is there only to set up a subversion at the end of it.

    Of course, with Symphonia it turns out that doing that actually was necessary to save the world.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Side-sweeping while attacking was already a thing in Xillia 1, though. It was one of the special skills you could get on the Lillium Orb.

  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    part of me likes the Allium Orb system, and part of me prefers the Lilium Orb system more. Allium orb is simple enough because it remembers how much elemental ore you stocked up per element, making it easier to go back and learn certain artes and skills down the way, but at the same time it's a hassle because you gotta equip different Extractors (or whatever they're called) throughout to get the stuff you want. Of course I found out that Fire + Wind gets Elize Nurse so I'm pretty much having her hug Lightning Bolt until she learns it.

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  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    Enlong wrote: »
    Side-sweeping while attacking was already a thing in Xillia 1, though. It was one of the special skills you could get on the Lillium Orb.

    Heh, played Xillia with my spouse, who was obsessed with constantly updating the Lillium Orb every time a character leveled, so it's likely I drifted off or wasn't paying attention when he acquired the skill, and he must not have noticed what it did.

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  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    I got to like, chapter 4 (or I guess, the debt-repaying part prior to it) last night, and I gotta say, I like this so much more than Xillia 1 it's not even funny. They've fixed pretty much everything (other than environments) that bugged me in the first game, added a pretty adorable and simple minigame with the cat dispatch, and improved all the returning systems. And I'm a sucker for their sidequest implementation this time around.

    I can't wait to sink my teeth into this more, and uncover more of the story, which so far, is pulling me in a lot more than Xillia did.

    I am however, very disappointed to see that (chapter 3 spoiler)
    no one murdered Ivar in-between games. Seriously, this dude is the worst.

  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Okay, the boss differences between difficulties is not even funny, like some of it is plain unfair at times. For example one boss early on that focuses on using magic will cast a massive AoE if you fight him on hard mode (2 AoE spells, both of which are later-game spells and really powerful). Another boss spammed the crap out of its AoE attacks at every opportunity while it happened to be a massively fast flying enemy, so it decimated me on MODERATE. I tone it down to Normal mode and suddenly he's easy. The worst part is that some boss-enemies are tougher not just because of the difficulty but the circumstances.

    When guns have trouble hitting a massive flying enemy because it moves too fast and attacks can sometimes just whiff from normal standing angles, that's a bad design. The entire game isn't like that, but I feel the need to nitpick because the boss I'm talking about was cheap as fuck.

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  • ArcTangentArcTangent Registered User regular
    They've fixed pretty much everything (other than environments) that bugged me in the first game (...) And I'm a sucker for their sidequest implementation this time around.

    Elaborate.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    @Gaming-Freak‌
    You are totally going to win.
    Julius keeps destroying me and I refuse to lower the difficulty to moderate. :(

    Hah never mind. Of course as soon as I post this I solve the problem.

    Blackjack on
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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    oh shit @Blackjack got the game earlier than Friday!? I gotta step my game up. Keep in mind I have total plans to pay off the "debt" before completing the game, though it might actually require you to pay it off fully. Holy shit the increments they ask for later get "real". I'm already being demanded to put 50k on the next payment. Yeesh.

    Thank God for the Lottery skill and the fact that Ludger can learn it through Leia.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    If it's anything like the first one, Gald will be nearly impossible to get at first and then a complete joke by the end of the game.

    Actually quite the opposite. With the job-completion system, Gald is pretty easy to get, except through battles. Most job rewards will give you 800-1200 gald, and if you kill the Elite monsters you usually rake in 10-12k early on.

    I definitely like the new victory poses and skits that happen in this game. Elle's voice actress isn't always spot on, but she's an adorably cute character regardless, when she's not being a brat. Whenever you level up she stands in front of Ludger and does a fist-pump alongside him, and goes "You definitely got stronger!", and some of her victory skits with other party members are great too:
    Elle: *leans forward with her hands propped back* "Easy!"
    Alvin: *does the same pose* "Easy!"
    Ludger: *does the same thing* "Easy!"
    Elle: "Are you making fun of me?"
    Alvin: "Kind of?"
    Ludger: "Uh..."

    One thing I figured out is that Affinity is a lot different in this game. First and foremost it only matters with Ludger and the other party members. Second, while you can normally level it up through linking in battle, just like in Xillia, Ludger can also level it with party members by choosing the choice they like in dialogue, either through main cut-scenes or even in Skits (oh yeah, btw you choose Ludger's dialogue in skits too).

    And while Ludger doesn't really talk much on his own, his facial expressions are the best, especially his cocky expression.

    I think my favorite Elle bit is at the start of battles.
    Come and get it! Uh...from Ludger. Not me."

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    OMFG, is this game even FUCKING POSSIBLE ON MODERATE/HARD!?

    How is it that every fucking enemy in the game is a stupid pushover, and then I get to a boss and I just get beaten like a fucking scrub, then when I switch it down to Normal, it's suddenly FAIR AND NOT FRUSTRATING. This wasn't the case in Xillia. In Xillia, I could actually play on Moderate/Hard from start to finish without a bunch of stupid BS attached to it. Holy shit this just makes me shake my head. I have to wait until NG+ for harder difficulties now. FFS.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Xillia was way too easy though.

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  • PrjctD_CaptainPrjctD_Captain iFizzRegistered User regular
    OMFG, is this game even FUCKING POSSIBLE ON MODERATE/HARD!?

    How is it that every fucking enemy in the game is a stupid pushover, and then I get to a boss and I just get beaten like a fucking scrub, then when I switch it down to Normal, it's suddenly FAIR AND NOT FRUSTRATING. This wasn't the case in Xillia. In Xillia, I could actually play on Moderate/Hard from start to finish without a bunch of stupid BS attached to it. Holy shit this just makes me shake my head. I have to wait until NG+ for harder difficulties now. FFS.

    Generally the way the higher difficulties are handled is that its just a multiplier to the stats of the enemy. This means that the normal encounters might feel just right, but a boss will rip you two ways to sunday if you arent completely ready for it.

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Bosses get new properties on higher difficulties now. Stagger chances are decreased, their damage boosts sky-rocket long with their HP, and some even get new spells/abilities that they use in the fight (or at least use them more often). I beat the boss I was having trouble with, and I'm still pretty pissed about it because it was a hard boss and they seem to throw stupid difficulty curves via stuff like removing your favorite party members temporarily (and more often than they did in Xillia). For example during the big troublesome boss I was fighting, I was stuck without my nice AoE heals and instead stuck with one character able to do actual focused healing and she can only target 1 person, which is almost USELESS.

    You can't put stupidly hard bosses like that and artificially bump up the difficulty because you can't bother to give one of the two designated healers in the game a freaking AoE heal spell to learn. They did that with Leia in Xillia 1 too, naturally, but at the very least they were nice enough to make it so they weren't OUTRAGEOUS with it, and you could always, ALWAYS bring Elize along to help heal.

    That's the main problem with Tales games in general if they split into two different healing-characters. Single-target healers will always be inadequate and outshone compared to the characters with, say, Healing Circle, Revitalize, and Nurse. In Abyss at least, Tear got the Circle-based healing spells where Natalia got the Nurse spell and better single-target healing spells. Leia just gets screwed over with single-target healing spells and because they force her into your party at times instead of letting you take Elize along, you run into situations that Wouldn't be difficult if party healing were a possible thing.

    It's just really really REALLY bad design, and it irks me that they would pull that off in this title. Hell, even ALVIN has a freaking AoE healing ability. Even Milla had one in Xillia if she linked with Jude and pulled a link-arte.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Oh man Elize is all grown up.

    ...by which I mean she's like 14.

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Same actress too. (psst, Blackjack: you can get her to learn Healing Circle early if you collect around 700 Earth and Light elementals for the Allium Orb)

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Bosses have gained new attacks on higher difficulties since at least Symphonia.

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Really? I never remember the harder bosses in Symphonia gaining new abilities in Maniac. Then again I suppose it was a very long time I played it. Same thing with Abyss too, though, I don't remember that being a thing when going through hard mode with that happening, but I never touched unknown mode (okay, excluding Nebilim (abyss)).

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Well...it's good to see that Volt is still complete bullshit.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Welp, started a Milla run of Xillia so I can sometime move on to Xillia 2. Inherited Tech and Skill books and cosmetic items, as well as raising item capacity to 99. The skill books should make things go real smooth early on. I'm glad to not have to do the Coliseum to get Tetra Spell for Rowen again.

  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Really? I never remember the harder bosses in Symphonia gaining new abilities in Maniac. Then again I suppose it was a very long time I played it. Same thing with Abyss too, though, I don't remember that being a thing when going through hard mode with that happening, but I never touched unknown mode (okay, excluding Nebilim (abyss)).

    As someone who basically started the Tales series with the Xillias (though I do have Symphonia Chronicles when they went on sale for $7.50 as a digital purchase), a battle system like this really only works if the AI works really well. I feel that if they're going to increase the difficulty to the extent they seem to do in Tales games, the AI should progressively get better as battles get harder. This should be happening on both sides. I feel it's a bit of a cop out to just exponentially increase damage or HP, or give them even more unblockables or invulnerability frames.

    I've said this in other forums, but I don't really mind the battle system, but it's something where early on I understood I couldn't stand it on higher difficulties, even without trying them. The game already has a system where the winner tends to be whoever can launch a mystic arte first, and that makes the whole system based more on luck and pre-planning for each individual boss battle... which is just too much goddamn work for me.

    BN could take some lessons from Level 5. Ni no Kuni wasn't the best battle system, but it did give you a very good way to instantly tell your group to either pour it on or dial it back. That would be HUGE in most arena style combat systems to tell your team 'pull back and guard' or 'he's stunned, bring it on hard'. If I can't freely control all of the characters, which is impossible in real-time systems like this, you're stuck with either two options to give players enough control. Put in enough options and tactics to tune the team members to your liking (this worked rather well in FFXII), or put in tactics commands so you can instantly keep your teammates from dying if you're smart (the aforementioned Ni no Kuni). The only other option is to dumb down the combat, which I doubt Tales fans really want.

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Well...it's good to see that Volt is still complete bullshit.
    Guns OP, bro. Also link with Alvin and you get a few nice unique gun-based link artes.

    And dammit, just when I thought Elle couldn't get more cute, she pulls out new things! Such an adorable character.

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Well...it's good to see that Volt is still complete bullshit.
    Guns OP, bro. Also link with Alvin and you get a few nice unique gun-based link artes.

    And dammit, just when I thought Elle couldn't get more cute, she pulls out new things! Such an adorable character.

    Guns are weak as shit, bro. And I am using guns because they're his weakness. Each hit does, like, 20 damage.

    Maybe you should take it off Easy. ;)

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  • QuiotuQuiotu Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Well...it's good to see that Volt is still complete bullshit.
    Guns OP, bro. Also link with Alvin and you get a few nice unique gun-based link artes.

    And dammit, just when I thought Elle couldn't get more cute, she pulls out new things! Such an adorable character.

    Guns are weak as shit, bro. And I am using guns because they're his weakness. Each hit does, like, 20 damage.

    Maybe you should take it off Easy. ;)

    If I remember correctly, I think the idea is to use the guns purely to set up the power hit, which gives you time to combo hits together. In the middle of this you can switch up weapons, and add more elements to the hits, then end things with a linked arte to increase the damage further. Basically the system seems to be designed around Ludger to hit a weak spot, then hit with as many different elements and weapons as possible before spanking them with an arte at the end.

    Haven't a clue how tough this is, but I believe stacking elements after hitting a weak spot is the name of the game for that Boss, and had a tutorial for it earlier. It's literally a 'learn this or die repeatedly' moment on higher difficulties, while on normal it's possible to get through without having to figure it out.

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Post-Symphonia the harder difficulties (past regular hard, and even then) are meant for NG+ and to be played with xp multipliers and all of the carryover bonuses.

    As for the battle systems, the AI is what is it is, but that doesn't mean there aren't ways to exploit them. You can pause the game and issue commands for a reason: you can tell them to stop moving, to back up, to use certain attacks or not use certain attacks. There are also ways to switch battle AI without pausing at all.

    I beat Symphonia on the hardest difficulty while getting the no deaths and no gels titles, while also only using costume titles (lowest possible stat gains), and no xp multipliers. That AI was considerably less advanced than the AI in the new games. Yes, sometimes you have to tell them to stop. Sometimes you have to put the AI in total defence stances, especially for casters, so they just stay as far away from the boss and block, and then you manually cast their spells. Sometimes you have to switch characters to move them out of a bad spot. Sometimes you have to make them cast Nurse instead of First Aid, or tell them to cast heals preemptively so that it comes out right after a big attack hits. Sometimes that's what it takes. You have to do more and try harder on the harder difficulties, and the games do give you the tools to do that (It's real-time, but you can pause at any time.). I don't really see what the problem is there. If the AI just scaled somehow relative to the challenge, where would the extra difficulty really even come from?

    It could be that you just don't enjoy playing Tales games on the higher difficulties. That's perfectly fine, if the normal mode is challenging enough, so be it. Maybe you want a x2 xp modifier at least before moving to hard. People can and do beat the harder difficulties, they just have to play differently than you would playing on normal. That doesn't make the game bad.

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    I remember trying a harder difficulty in Symphonia and getting utterly destroyed by the two Desians who attack Lloyd in Triet.

  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Blackjack wrote: »
    Well...it's good to see that Volt is still complete bullshit.
    Guns OP, bro. Also link with Alvin and you get a few nice unique gun-based link artes.

    And dammit, just when I thought Elle couldn't get more cute, she pulls out new things! Such an adorable character.

    Guns are weak as shit, bro. And I am using guns because they're his weakness. Each hit does, like, 20 damage.

    Maybe you should take it off Easy. ;)

    Ah come on, gimme some credit, I'm not playing EASY (and I beat him on Moderate). And really guns are nice because you can move while attacking, plus you start out with an arte that counts as a side-step before you attack with it (Rolling Thunder). And if you link with Alvin, you can do the Mortar Fire Linked Arte with Rolling Thunder or his Punishing Shot being the trigger, which does a SHIT TON of damage. And if you're in Overlimit, you can basically spam it for even more damage.

    The boss did do quite a bit of damage though.

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    Also, many bosses don't use their hi-ougis (or don't use all of their hi-ougis) on normal difficulties.

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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Sounds like the age old problem of difficulty levels being nothing more than multiplication equations. Double the stats on a chump and he's still a chump. Double the stats on a guy who can fuck you up, and now he can double fuck you up. Plus it means your opponents are going to get stronger on a quadratic scale, while you're on a linear scale.

    You can either constantly feather the difficulty, going back and forth when needed, or just file them under NG+ options, which honestly I kinda feel is the point with the Tales games and the like.

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  • Page-Page- Registered User regular
    To be fair, you usually can't play the really absurd difficulties until ng+ anyway. And as I've said, bosses don't simply get more numbers, they get new attacks and sometimes new minions.

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  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    Oh god, the "Friendship Pose" victory cinematic between Ludger, Leia, Alvin, and Elle is the best.
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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    Guns are OP as fuck in terms of a ranged character moveset. I mean, Ludger makes Hubert look weak-sauce.

    Not really. the damage is pretty low from max range and I've found that the dangerous flying animals that are weak to it tend to have some kind of slow movement ability, so its not always possible to kite them.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    Man...weren't kidding about Volt.

    Only playing on Moderate and man did he take some time what that stupid ass ground pound move. Was pretty much and instant wipe my entire team was unlucky enough to get hit by it.

    I see my using attribute boosting foods a bit more before boss fights.

  • Gaming-FreakGaming-Freak Registered User regular
    The power of guns isn't in the damage but the fact that you can basically maintain your distance at almost all times, the only problem targets being small ones. The juggle moveset is good, the artes supporting it are fantastic, and it has an amazing knockdown (down+attack) combo as well. Not to mention it's never a bad thing to be able to attack while moving.

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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    I dont get the problems with volt. he seemed pretty easy for me.

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  • DragkoniasDragkonias That Guy Who Does Stuff You Know, There. Registered User regular
    The power of guns isn't in the damage but the fact that you can basically maintain your distance at almost all times, the only problem targets being small ones. The juggle moveset is good, the artes supporting it are fantastic, and it has an amazing knockdown (down+attack) combo as well. Not to mention it's never a bad thing to be able to attack while moving.

    I'm trying to get down the timing to quick-switching myself.

    It seems to effectively exploit weaknesses you'll do that quite a bit.

    That said keeping up with my distance and AC counter does get in the way.

    As for the guns themselves. I think they're good as a support weapon and they allow a good amount of safety making them pretty good, not sure about OP though. Though as long as the AI is working with you well enough it is easy to rack up huge combos with them.

  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    Anyone found a really high combo combination for ludger yet?

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  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    ...Kitty Dispatch is the best.
    I just got guns for Ludger that are shaped like cats.

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