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What to do about [Gender Roles]

Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
edited February 2014 in Debate and/or Discourse
So, gender roles are a pretty big deal in first-world society. The genitals you're born with shape how people treat you from birth. They shape your interests, your education, your hobbies, your social groups, and your career. They're a huge source of pride for some and a huge source of shame for others.

Women get a bad deal from gender roles. Women's health issues are frequently politicized, with access to abortion and contraception being a major issue in elections. Women get consistently lower pay for their labor, even accounting for factors like education, senority, and maternity leave. Women are unequally represented in certain fields, primarily the sciences. Sexual assault of young women is common, and society handles it terribly when it happens. Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored. Women are expected to be beautiful at all times, and are often held to an unrealistic standard of beauty. Women are expected to be the gatekeepers of sex, to remain pure while also giving the 'gift' of sex to deserving men. A woman who gives too much sex or gives it to the wrong people is viewed as a slut. The female body is prized, something to be shown off and cultivated, often over other attributes a woman might have. Overall, women are often viewed as helpless child-like figures that need to be protected and kept pure, incapable of handling complex tasks or responsibilities on their own.

Men also get a pretty bad deal from gender roles. Men have significantly higher rates of suicide than women. Men are less likely to succeed in school than women in most subjects, are less likely to attend college, and more likely to drop out. 68% of the homeless are men. Men are over-represented across to do society's most physically dangerous jobs, often with little or no reward. Men are expected to be violent, and are viewed as violent whether they are or not. Men face serious issues in the court system, and are more likely to be arrested for a crime, more likely to be convicted, and given consistently longer sentences. Fathers are often discriminated against in custody cases. The military as a career choice is aimed primarily at young men, and men who go into the military often suffer all kinds of physical and mental health issues. Men are expected to be the pursuers of sex, to always want sex, and masculinity is often made to revolve around a man's ability to convince a lot of women to have sex with him. A man who does not or cannot do this is viewed as a loser. The male body is seen as shameful, something gross that should be hidden from view, a view that ties closely to society's homophobia. Overall, men are frequently viewed as disposable, cogs in an economic and social machine, and only viewed as individuals when placed in positions of power. They are often seen as being incapable of real feelings, and it is expected that men will endure any hardship without complaint. A man who takes about his problems is viewed as weak, whiny, or feminine.

Society reinforces these gender roles in a lot of ways. Parents, teachers, and peers encourage children to act in certain ways based on their gender. Representations in media tend to play strongly to gender stereotypes on both sides, reinforcing those gender roles as they already exist. Both genders end up trapped by their respective roles, and punished in various implicit and explicit ways for going outside of those roles. If you act outside of prescribed gender roles, you can expect to be shamed, or at the very least steered back towards the 'right' path. Gender roles prevent individuals from expressing themselves, and encourage everyone to conform to an arbitrary social norm. This isn't enforced by any one gender or group of powerful people (white men, the media, ect), it's enforced by everyone. Most people in society enforce gender roles, in a thousand tiny subtle ways - and almost always without being aware that they're doing it. It's not done out of malice, it's the way we're all taught to think.

A lot of people will want to compare those lists up above and try to figure out which gender has it worse. Don't bother. The point is that both men and women have things worse than they should. That both sides are oppressed by conventional gender roles, and placed into boxes that often don't fit.

Personally, I would love to see a real gender equality movement, one built from the ground up around egalitarianism and individual choice. I think that there is a lot of room for such a movement in the public consciousness right now, and I think it would do a lot of good for both men and women.

But isn't that feminism is?

Kind of. Feminism has done a lot of great things, and its largely responsible for making us into a society where implicit gender roles rather than explicit legal discrimination are the primary issues we deal with. It's also the only movement that seriously discusses gender roles and their impacts on society, and it should absolutely be commended for that.

But long-term, I don't really see it as being able to address societal gender roles all that effectively. It's a movement primarily focused on making things better for women, and putting women's issues into the public consciousness. That's a laudable goal (particularly in parts of the world where women are still heavily oppressed), but it's not a particularly good approach to implicit gender roles, which are inherently a two-sided issue. The construct of men as oppressors and women are victims is built right into the name, into the language ("Patriarchy!"") and into the discourse. While it's great that feminism has acknowledged gender roles and tries to address them, it continues to do so in a one-sided manner, focusing on the roles that affect women and often taking the gender male role as the default, even if the male role is horrible and full of its own baggage. A true gender equality movement would need to give equal voice to both genders, to explore men's issues with the same veracity that it explores women's issues - and I don't really see that developing in feminism right now. That's just my opinion though, and I know that many have a different take.

Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.

Squidget0 on
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Posts

  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    The genitals you're born with shape how people treat you from birth.

    ...

    Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.

    It is really weird when you think of how universally actions and interactions and treatment are gendered, and sometimes in really subtle ways. Like, really little stuff, how often people touch you, the kind of names people use when they need to get your attention, tiny stuff like that. It varies greatly, obviously, but so many general themes and ideas are super deeply ingrained that it's hard to notice them sometimes.

    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    It is still in my view feminism, but I certainly think there is room for men to organize to focus on the issues they face and to reach out to those they might more able to convince.




    ...

    I'm really not a huge fan of the gender roles the control physical contact for american males. Like the whole thing where it is almost always inappropriate/unwanted, yet I go through life acutely feeling its absence... I don't know. It is probably mostly me for a few reasons.

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Not really.

    Most people do not constantly question every aspect of their existence. Generally, we only question things when they break, or cause problems. For most people, raised in a particular society, the gender roles of that society are understood as a simple fact of reality. They go unnoticed because, well, they are not noteworthy.

    I would say that what is actually weird is when people question the norms of society. I mean, that's just a truism, given what a "norm" is, and how "weird" tends to be defined.

    So, no, it is not weird that folks do not notice the socially accepted gender norms within a particular society.

  • wiltingwilting I had fun once and it was awful Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Good OP.

    I do think it is important to distinguish between the different ways in how gender roles manifest. I'm struggling to come up with what I think is the right terminology for what I mean.

    Discrimination on the grounds of gender in a particular career is not the same thing as a particular career happening to be favored by, or being better suited to, a particular gender. That is not to say any given individual cannot excel in whatever career they wish, but they may be less likely to be interested in the career in the first place. Some of that may be because of societal gender role norms, but part of it may also be biological inclination. We should break down the former but be realistic about the latter. Of course, a field being totally dominated by one gender makes it harder for the other gender to break in and leads to greater opportunity for discrimination, we should make sure that a field not only does not discriminate against a gender but also that people of a gender view that career as an attractive/viable option for them, but those things being achieved I don't think we should lose too much sleep about the gender demographic makeup of given field not being exactly 50/50.

    I also feel its important that our focus being on uplifting those on lower rungs rather than lowering the standard by which everyone is treated.

    The massive male workplace death/injury gap, for example, isn't something that can realistically expected to be remedied by encouraging more women to go into mining, logging, fishing or what have you, but rather by improving safety standards, equipment, technology etc. That is not to say that the issue cannot be framed or approached with gender in mind, nor again, that discrimination against a gender in any field should be tolerated.

    Basically what I'm saying we should make every effort to make sure individuals aren't discriminated against, but not panic about individuals choosing to enter gender traditional fields if they so wish.

    As for Feminism, I would say my positions on gender issues as they affect women are Feminist, but (as I am with any theoretical model) I would be extremely reluctant to consider Feminist theory, though not without explanatory power in certain contexts, as an absolute model that can be applied universally to all of societies ills, especially Men's. Neither should it be viewed in isolation, or other models automatically be considered threatening, when they may provide a complementary alternative perspective. Feminism good, just not one particular narrow model of Feminism all the time always.

    wilting on
  • redxredx I(x)=2(x)+1 whole numbersRegistered User regular
    Could you explain your understanding of feminist theory?

    They moistly come out at night, moistly.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Not really.

    Most people do not constantly question every aspect of their existence. Generally, we only question things when they break, or cause problems. For most people, raised in a particular society, the gender roles of that society are understood as a simple fact of reality. They go unnoticed because, well, they are not noteworthy.

    I would say that what is actually weird is when people question the norms of society. I mean, that's just a truism, given what a "norm" is, and how "weird" tends to be defined.

    So, no, it is not weird that folks do not notice the socially accepted gender norms within a particular society.

    Weird in the "that's not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance" sense, not weird in a "that's not what people do" sense. It is certainly true that it is normal to not notice things like that.

    Mostly, your last sentence is correct if we treat norm and weird as antonyms, but that was not my intent with the end of my post. It's weird in the way electron tunneling is weird.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited February 2014
    Shivahn wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Not really.

    Most people do not constantly question every aspect of their existence. Generally, we only question things when they break, or cause problems. For most people, raised in a particular society, the gender roles of that society are understood as a simple fact of reality. They go unnoticed because, well, they are not noteworthy.

    I would say that what is actually weird is when people question the norms of society. I mean, that's just a truism, given what a "norm" is, and how "weird" tends to be defined.

    So, no, it is not weird that folks do not notice the socially accepted gender norms within a particular society.

    Weird in the "that's not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance" sense, not weird in a "that's not what people do" sense. It is certainly true that it is normal to not notice things like that.

    Mostly, your last sentence is correct if we treat norm and weird as antonyms, but that was not my intent with the end of my post. It's weird in the way electron tunneling is weird.

    Weird, adjective
    2. Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange.

    Norm, noun
    1. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical

    I tend to think that "odd / unusual" and "standard / typical" are antonymy.

    It's fine if you did not mean it in that way. I am simply pointing out that it is not weird that I read it in that way.

    Edit: I am still not sure why you think "fails to recognize gender norms within regular activities of life within a particular society" is "not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance".

    _J_ on
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    The genitals you're born with shape how people treat you from birth.

    ...

    Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.

    It is really weird when you think of how universally actions and interactions and treatment are gendered, and sometimes in really subtle ways. Like, really little stuff, how often people touch you, the kind of names people use when they need to get your attention, tiny stuff like that. It varies greatly, obviously, but so many general themes and ideas are super deeply ingrained that it's hard to notice them sometimes.

    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Absolutely. And the worst part is when the little stuff compounds into big stuff. The way a person walks or sits, posture, word choice, they're all these tiny differences that very few people think about. Pointing them out directly is kind of weird to most people because they're so small and you don't even notice or think about them. But when you combine all the little things and see them everywhere your entire life, they play into larger perceptions, to the point where it seems like a natural idea that women are more graceful and elegant (and that men are the opposite.)

  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    edited February 2014
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    The genitals you're born with shape how people treat you from birth.

    ...

    Anyway, this thread is for discussing gender roles. What they are, why they exist, the ways society expresses them, and what we can (or should) do about them. Feel free to share anything you think is relevant, whether it's a a statistic, an idea, or a personal experience.

    It is really weird when you think of how universally actions and interactions and treatment are gendered, and sometimes in really subtle ways. Like, really little stuff, how often people touch you, the kind of names people use when they need to get your attention, tiny stuff like that. It varies greatly, obviously, but so many general themes and ideas are super deeply ingrained that it's hard to notice them sometimes.

    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Absolutely. And the worst part is when the little stuff compounds into big stuff. The way a person walks or sits, posture, word choice, they're all these tiny differences that very few people think about. Pointing them out directly is kind of weird to most people because they're so small and you don't even notice or think about them. But when you combine all the little things and see them everywhere your entire life, they play into larger perceptions, to the point where it seems like a natural idea that women are more graceful and elegant (and that men are the opposite.)

    You also just kind of... forget some of them are happening. They're invisible because, while not totally universal, they are very widespread and (generally, obviously there are times when this is not the case >.>) you get treated the same way pretty consistently. To pick an example on my mind, people as a whole have a set of, for lack of a better word, pronouns they use when referring to male appearing people (sir, but also dude, man, son), but a separate set for women (varying from miss/ma'am to terms of endearment like darling, love, honey, etc, even for strangers). When viewing them on paper it's obvious that there are serious connotative differences between the two, but it's such a tiny thing that it's easy to just not process that stuff as gendered interaction.

    Shivahn on
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Pointing them out directly is kind of weird to most people because they're so small and you don't even notice or think about them. But when you combine all the little things and see them everywhere your entire life, they play into larger perceptions, to the point where it seems like a natural idea that women are more graceful and elegant (and that men are the opposite.)

    I'm still not sure what you and Shivahn are talking about.

    There seems to be considerable evidence to support the hypothesis that a majority of human societies tend to have gender roles, tend to divide people into groups.

    When the vast majority of human societies do X, that's when we say X is normal. You can say that is bad, deleterious to those groups, unproductive to society. But it is definitely not weird.

    Also, your "natural idea" line seems to suggest that there are natural and un-natural ideas, which gets into a nature / nurture conversation with respect to the origin of sex / gender norms. Again, when the vast majority of human societies do X, arguing that X is unnatural plays into the notion that humans are somehow estranged from nature, despite Darwin.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    I think what @_J_ is trying to say is, we often take "the given" for granted because it's perceived as "the norm" and reinforced very heavily as such. The questioning comes when something outside "the norm" is noticed or being presented, and thus stasis is broken and the investigation begins.

  • wiltingwilting I had fun once and it was awful Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    redx wrote: »
    Could you explain your understanding of feminist theory?

    - That society was and/or is dominated by men, for men, is male centric and/or privileges men.
    - At the expense of women
    - Who were/are exploited, controlled, marginalized due to and/or to facilitate male domination/privilege.
    - Manifested and/or Facilitated by many small individual and/or large group factors, be they social, cultural, political, violent, sexual or what have you.

    I guess? Roughly? Its a broad church. Perhaps the starting point should be women are oppressed etc in these ways, followed by women are oppressed etc in these ways because of etc, rather than the way I have written it.

    wilting on
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Pointing them out directly is kind of weird to most people because they're so small and you don't even notice or think about them. But when you combine all the little things and see them everywhere your entire life, they play into larger perceptions, to the point where it seems like a natural idea that women are more graceful and elegant (and that men are the opposite.)

    I'm still not sure what you and Shivahn are talking about.

    There seems to be considerable evidence to support the hypothesis that a majority of human societies tend to have gender roles, tend to divide people into groups.

    When the vast majority of human societies do X, that's when we say X is normal. You can say that is bad, deleterious to those groups, unproductive to society. But it is definitely not weird.

    Also, your "natural idea" line seems to suggest that there are natural and un-natural ideas, which gets into a nature / nurture conversation with respect to the origin of sex / gender norms. Again, when the vast majority of human societies do X, arguing that X is unnatural plays into the notion that humans are somehow estranged from nature, despite Darwin.

    I think you and Shiv are using the word "weird" in different ways. Something can be weird while still being the normal state of things, simply by defying conventional ideas under close examination. I think quantum physics is weird, it blows my mind, but apparently it's the natural state of the universe.

    I don't think anyone is disagreeing that most human societies have historically had some form of gender roles. That doesn't mean we need to continue to have them, or keep them in the same form as they exist in presently.

  • sumwarsumwar Registered User regular
    "Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored" I've heard of many men arrested sent to jail and kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence alone so I will have to disagree on this point, not trying to derail the thread or anything.

  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Western coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderator mod
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is disagreeing that most human societies have historically had some form of gender roles. That doesn't mean we need to continue to have them, or keep them in the same form as they exist in presently.

    Ha, like that's even possible :P

    People will try though.

  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    I don't think anyone is disagreeing that most human societies have historically had some form of gender roles. That doesn't mean we need to continue to have them, or keep them in the same form as they exist in presently.

    Of course. We can change things.

    One question, though, is the issue of unintended consequences that follow from changing the norms. As you and Shivahn said earlier, these roles are found throughout our experience. They're in our rituals, our myths, our language, our habits, etc. That does not mean that we ought to shy away from change, or quash folks who feel that their self-identity may not jive with societal norms.

    Rather, we need to be sensitive to what transpires when shifts occur. Just as we oughtn't be too restrictive, we oughtn't be too liberal.

    Also, reading through the OP again, you said, " both genders". That would likely piss some folks off.

    And that's another issue to tackle. The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Shit be complicated, and as this forum tends to lean lefty, they tend to lean a little bit too far in the "let everyone do what they want" direction. Quashing bigotry and intolerance and genuine discrimination is great. Allowing individuals to explore their self-identity and engage in modifications that make them happier and healthier is great.

    Casually tossing aside the categories we've utilized since ever, though, is not great.

  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    sumwar wrote: »
    "Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored" I've heard of many men arrested sent to jail and kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence alone so I will have to disagree on this point, not trying to derail the thread or anything.

    "many men are arrested and/or kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence" in no way means that "female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored." is not a true statement. It's pretty much established fact that domestic violence is underreported and underprosecuted and men being arrested for same doesn't really have any bearing on that fact.

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Gender roles be weird, is my point. That we don't notice them until they're pointed out is even weirder.

    Not really.

    Most people do not constantly question every aspect of their existence. Generally, we only question things when they break, or cause problems. For most people, raised in a particular society, the gender roles of that society are understood as a simple fact of reality. They go unnoticed because, well, they are not noteworthy.

    I would say that what is actually weird is when people question the norms of society. I mean, that's just a truism, given what a "norm" is, and how "weird" tends to be defined.

    So, no, it is not weird that folks do not notice the socially accepted gender norms within a particular society.

    Weird in the "that's not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance" sense, not weird in a "that's not what people do" sense. It is certainly true that it is normal to not notice things like that.

    Mostly, your last sentence is correct if we treat norm and weird as antonyms, but that was not my intent with the end of my post. It's weird in the way electron tunneling is weird.

    Weird, adjective
    2. Of a strikingly odd or unusual character; strange.

    Norm, noun
    1. A standard, model, or pattern regarded as typical

    I tend to think that "odd / unusual" and "standard / typical" are antonymy.

    It's fine if you did not mean it in that way. I am simply pointing out that it is not weird that I read it in that way.

    Edit: I am still not sure why you think "fails to recognize gender norms within regular activities of life within a particular society" is "not what you'd think people would do on a cursory glance".

    save for the brief edit, this post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread. You have a history here, _J_, and the next time you fail to contribute to the discussion at hand you will be escorted out of the thread.

    rRwz9.gif
  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.

    people have identified (or invented, depending upon your view of such things) a range of other states genderqueer, gender fuck, neutral, both, and situational states of gender. Plus there are societies in which there are a third gender role - usually it involves men going and loving as priestesses in Asian countries (from my partially remembered experiences watching documentaries about that).

  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Ah. Thank you!

    My two cents- the modern feminist movement has lost its way in the weeds of post-modernism/structuralism/whatever, and would be a lot more effective if it focused on concrete, tangible goals. Finally passing the Equal Rights Amendment, for example.

  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Ah. Thank you!

    My two cents- the modern feminist movement has lost its way in the weeds of post-modernism/structuralism/whatever, and would be a lot more effective if it focused on concrete, tangible goals. Finally passing the Equal Rights Amendment, for example.

    Those aren't mutually exclusive though. There are feminist groups pushing for concrete legislation and cultural change and there are feminists that put a lot of thought into the philosophy side of it, and they don't really get in each other's way. Probably you couldn't even have one without the other

    Typhoid Manny on
    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    Are there any links for the concrete legislation groups?

  • Typhoid MannyTyphoid Manny Registered User regular
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Women's_political_advocacy_groups_in_the_United_States

    not all of these are feminist by name, but some of them are and most of them are pushing for feminist things

    from each according to his ability, to each according to his need
    hitting hot metal with hammers
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    sumwar wrote: »
    "Female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored" I've heard of many men arrested sent to jail and kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence alone so I will have to disagree on this point, not trying to derail the thread or anything.

    "many men are arrested and/or kicked out of their homes based off of accusations of domestic violence" in no way means that "female victims of domestic violence are often dismissed or ignored." is not a true statement. It's pretty much established fact that domestic violence is underreported and underprosecuted and men being arrested for same doesn't really have any bearing on that fact.

    Just wanted to point out that the same could be said for domestic violence against men, and it is not an inherently female gender issue. Most men won't report it out of embarrassment (the same as why a woman wouldn't), with the added issue if not being able to do anything to defend them self due to then they will usually be assumed to be the aggressor.

    LostNinja on
  • InvisibleGriffinInvisibleGriffin Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.

    people have identified (or invented, depending upon your view of such things) a range of other states genderqueer, gender fuck, neutral, both, and situational states of gender. Plus there are societies in which there are a third gender role - usually it involves men going and loving as priestesses in Asian countries (from my partially remembered experiences watching documentaries about that).

    Of course, it should be noted that most of these people cite their identification as a philosophical choice to prove that gender isn't a binary, which makes about as much sense as putting "dragonkin" on your census form to prove the existence of dragons, and that the total number of these people is roughly on the same order as the congenital amputees that I suppose disprove the proposition that humans are bipedal tetrapods.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.

    people have identified (or invented, depending upon your view of such things) a range of other states genderqueer, gender fuck, neutral, both, and situational states of gender. Plus there are societies in which there are a third gender role - usually it involves men going and loving as priestesses in Asian countries (from my partially remembered experiences watching documentaries about that).

    For a contemporary real-world example of this and its political implications, there is a fairly large controversy right now in Bangladesh sparked by the national government officially acknowledging hijra as an alternate gender.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    The construct of men as oppressors and women are victims is built right into the name, into the language ("Patriarchy!"") and into the discourse.

    Well, this is a bit of a misunderstanding, even though it is a common and arguably understandable one. I'm going to spoiler-tag this because it is a tangent from the actual gender role discussion:
    Being privileged doesn't necessarily make you the oppressor. That's something that comes up a lot in pop discussions of social justice. "Oh, I guess I'm evil because I'm a white male?" No, not necessarily. Being a white male just means I've benefited more from the default political & economic arrangements than if I were nonwhite or nonmale. It says nothing about your character.

    I do recognize that there are those out there, particularly of the radical feminist variety, who do see men as evil, or at least unavoidably complicit in gender oppression. I'd also argue that this is not a 'mainstream' feminist viewpoint, in as much as there is a mainstream viewpoint.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Casually tossing aside the categories we've utilized since ever, though, is not great.
    Of course, it should be noted that most of these people cite their identification as a philosophical choice to prove that gender isn't a binary.

    We need to keep in mind in this thread that gender roles and gender identification are not the same thing.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    The transition from a society that utilizes binary genders to a society that utilizes 3+ genders, or even a gradient of genders, will have many consequences. Pronouns, restrooms, health care, marital relations, etc. will all be affected.

    Forgive my ignorance, but could someone explain this? I was under the impression that there was just male/female; a MtF person would be considered female.

    people have identified (or invented, depending upon your view of such things) a range of other states genderqueer, gender fuck, neutral, both, and situational states of gender. Plus there are societies in which there are a third gender role - usually it involves men going and loving as priestesses in Asian countries (from my partially remembered experiences watching documentaries about that).

    Of course, it should be noted that most of these people cite their identification as a philosophical choice to prove that gender isn't a binary, which makes about as much sense as putting "dragonkin" on your census form to prove the existence of dragons, and that the total number of these people is roughly on the same order as the congenital amputees that I suppose disprove the proposition that humans are bipedal tetrapods.

    ...you know this how? Because I know about a half dozen non binary people and none fit that sterotype at all.

    And that's before you get into things like binary transgender people who neverless want to stick with their original equipment.

  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    Also there is "you think I'm the bad guy? I'll SHOW YOU bad guy" which, like the news, is disproportionately triggered by vocal minority incidents that do not represent the consensus opinion. Psychologically, the extremists have the most self-fulfilling power.

    Marty: The future, it's where you're going?
    Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
  • Squidget0Squidget0 Registered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Feral wrote: »
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    The construct of men as oppressors and women are victims is built right into the name, into the language ("Patriarchy!"") and into the discourse.

    Well, this is a bit of a misunderstanding, even though it is a common and arguably understandable one. I'm going to spoiler-tag this because it is a tangent from the actual gender role discussion:
    Being privileged doesn't necessarily make you the oppressor. That's something that comes up a lot in pop discussions of social justice. "Oh, I guess I'm evil because I'm a white male?" No, not necessarily. Being a white male just means I've benefited more from the default political & economic arrangements than if I were nonwhite or nonmale. It says nothing about your character.

    I do recognize that there are those out there, particularly of the radical feminist variety, who do see men as evil, or at least unavoidably complicit in gender oppression. I'd also argue that this is not a 'mainstream' feminist viewpoint, in as much as there is a mainstream viewpoint.

    Well, as far as patriarchy specifically, my issue is one more of terminology - I think that you could change every instance of "The patriarchy enforces gender roles" to "Society enforces gender roles" and lose nothing of value, while not alienating men who have gender issues that are worth expressing. Similarly, I think that having a gender-equality movement named "feminism" is a little like creating a movement that seeks equality for the people of every nation, and calling that movement "France-ism." Terminology matters. It defines how we think about things, whether people feel welcome or unwelcome.

    As to whether men are seen as oppressors, that's a murkier question, and very much dependent on who you ask. I think that if you asked most people who identify as feminist whether they see all men as oppressors, they would say no. People don't want to be seen as sexist, after all, but that doesn't mean that those issues and narratives and worldviews don't underlie much of the discourse.

    But really, it's neither here nor there. Terminology aside, I'm for the movement that wants to free individual behavior from strictly defined gender roles, and against the movement that sees one gender as responsible for society's ills.

    Squidget0 on
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Philosopher King The AcademyRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Casually tossing aside the categories we've utilized since ever, though, is not great.
    Of course, it should be noted that most of these people cite their identification as a philosophical choice to prove that gender isn't a binary.

    We need to keep in mind in this thread that gender roles and gender identification are not the same thing.

    I wonder if there's enough room to make them into more gender-less roles and just purely social roles.

    Like, it's great to have caregivers, and people who dedicate themselves to maintaining a home and caring for young humans.

    It's great to have those that take less of a direct hand in rearing children and do more to improve society through non-domestic labor.

    Or anything in between. And that's just talking about vocation and labor. Those social roles are probably not inherently harmful, but divorcing them from gender expression is probably a net good.

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
  • DraygoDraygo Registered User regular
    Ok I'm going to drop a point of discussion because I want to know what you guys think about this situation, I do realize this is pretty hypothetical.

    Lets say I am looking to hire someone for a job. This job requires the employee to be able to move 50 lb (or 22.5 kilograms) object from point A to point B. When looking to hire job applicants, is it appropriate for me to test the applicant to make sure they can move a number of blocks from A->B?

    Now lets say it a 25lb or 11 kg object. Is it fair for me to pay based on how many blocks are moved between point A to point B?

    I do realize some women will be able to equally perform the task just as efficiently as men, the issue is and point of thought, if 50 men and 50 women applied and 40 men passed the test and 5 women passed the test and I was hiring 10 people should I hire 5 women and 5 men? Is that fair?

    (Also a point of note that the statement should be "women are unequally represented in high academic and high paying fields", because certain fields like nursing and administrative assistant women have an overrepresentation which in itself is related to gender roles).

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited February 2014
    Squidget0 wrote: »
    Terminology aside, I'm for the movement that wants to free individual behavior from strictly defined gender roles, and against the movement that sees one gender as responsible for society's ills.

    As I understand it, modern feminism doesn't really cast Men as the Be All, End All problem with society, but rather that, historically speaking, men have benefited from an the imbalance of power between the genders, and that that balance of power should shifted to equal footing for all. Especially where things like reproductive, political, and economic rights are concerned.

    Their success in the matter is a different discussion all together.

    Hacksaw on
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    We've had this discussion before but reproductive rights are actually an area where the focus is on giving women the majority of the power. Which biology being what it is, is actually fair enough. There is no real way to do a 50/50 split of power on reproductive rights at the moment and there won't be until we start vat growing kids.

    So our choice is basically between being somewhat unfair to the men, or being absurdly unfair to women.

  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    I think my biggest problem with supporting feminism as a means to help dismantle gender roles is how incredibly ugly certain feminists are to trans people.

    It's not a community I am familiar with, but the vitriol radical feminists have for trans folk is fucking disgusting.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
    Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    I think my biggest problem with supporting feminism as a means to help dismantle gender roles is how incredibly ugly certain feminists are to trans people.

    It's not a community I am familiar with, but the vitriol radical feminists have for trans folk is fucking disgusting.


    I agree but at the same time I'm yet to meet a transwoman who doesn't self identify as a feminist. So rotten elements aside it's not a label transwomen seem to reject.

  • CaptainNemoCaptainNemo Registered User regular
    It's kind of like how I can't support MRA's either. I just can't divorce the super gross parts from the whole. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a fucker if you're a feminist, it's just not a label I want. That said, I entirely support the dismantling of gender roles and all the other gendered bullshit that abounds in our culture.

    PSN:CaptainNemo1138
    Shitty Tumblr:lighthouse1138.tumblr.com
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    It's kind of like how I can't support MRA's either. I just can't divorce the super gross parts from the whole. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're a fucker if you're a feminist, it's just not a label I want. That said, I entirely support the dismantling of gender roles and all the other gendered bullshit that abounds in our culture.

    Wait, were MRAs ever serious? I thought they were just assholes who trolled feminists from day one.

This discussion has been closed.