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Indoctrination

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Posts

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.

    Did you not see my color code?

    MyBannerII7-1.jpg
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Qingu wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

    You've never really been to church, have you? What, did your gramma take you once when you were six and you got all bored?

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

    You've never really been to church, have you? What, did your gramma take you once when you were six and you got all bored?

    I've been to several churches before. What's your point?

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

    You've never really been to church, have you? What, did your gramma take you once when you were six and you got all bored?

    I've been to several churches before. What's your point?


    Shhh. Grownups are talking.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • QinguQingu Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

    You've never really been to church, have you? What, did your gramma take you once when you were six and you got all bored?
    I think I'm just going to ignore comments like this in the future on this forum. Do you actually feel that you are contributing to the discussion by attempting to mock me? How on earth does this statement interact with anything I've said?

    Yes, I have been to church. I also attended synagogue for most of my childhood, and my criticism applies to that too.

  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Shhh. Grownups are talking.

    Ah, you'd better run along then.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Qingu wrote: »
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Qingu wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    See, 'm still not clear on where "Hey guys, we go to church every Sunday" ends and "Indoctrinating" begins.
    I doubt anyone will ever be able to make that clear. It depends for one on the church. Certain churches are certainly more open-minded and encourage critical thinking and doubt more than others. It also depends on the parents' attitude towards the church service and what they tell the child if they ask questions. It's definitely not a clear-cut distinction, though I'm sure that circumstances on either end of the spectrum would be obviously indoctrination or not indoctrination.

    That said, I don't think we should underestimate the indoctrinating power even a relatively mild church service has in the mind of a child. Seeing everyone stand up and sit down for the services, reciting praises and hymns, undergoing repetitive rituals—there is nothing educational or critical about any of these actions, especially if the child is too young to understand what he is doing. These ritual actions exist to reinforce behaviors and attitudes, not to rationally teach people about Jesus or God.

    I would never take my kid to church. I'd let him go if he wants to, when he's old enough to read and understand religious texts.

    You've never really been to church, have you? What, did your gramma take you once when you were six and you got all bored?
    I think I'm just going to ignore comments like this in the future on this forum. Do you actually feel that you are contributing to the discussion by attempting to mock me? How on earth does this statement interact with anything I've said?

    Yes, I have been to church. I also attended synagogue for most of my childhood, and my criticism applies to that too.

    I'm just shocked that you could go for any period of time and still maintain that the structure of worship is not there to facilitate education about God. Standing to show respect, sitting or speaking in unison, learning songs with messages that you will remember for your whole life, learning how to give thanks and be thankful in ones daily living, and the consistant social reinforcement that you are not alone, and that others are on the same journey. This is aside from the sermons themselves, which are generally bite size chunks of applied critical thinking in interpreting the scriptures. I'm sorry you found no value in your time there, I'm sure you had your reasons.

    Edit: Oh, and I apologize for the mocking tone Qingu - as far as I can tell you've always been straightforward and sincere. My bad.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Shhh. Grownups are talking.

    Ah, you'd better run along then.


    Oh Loren Michael, you're like the wittiest superhero I never had.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    The basic point I'm trying to make, albeit very badly, is that this is a nice thought exercise, but we won't really ever be able to do anything like this beyond social pressures, which aren't exactly the most rational themselves.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sanstodo that's not what this thread is about. We're not discussing the possible flaws of the three major religions, we're talking about whether it is Ok to indoctrinate your child into any religion..

    Or anything, really.
    Indoctrination:

    1.to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

    That last bit is the important part. I don't like that. It's bad to do that. The only thing I'm a partisan with is the necessity of not being partisan about things.

    Also, guys? Don't get all snarky. This thread has been pretty polite so far. I don't care how many rounds you've gone at each other before, it isn't that entertaining.

    Anyway, I lack the energy for further discourse at the moment. I shall return later.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    The basic point I'm trying to make, albeit very badly, is that this is a nice thought exercise, but we won't really ever be able to do anything like this beyond social pressures, which aren't exactly the most rational themselves.

    Let them explore the different philosophical cultures.

    Introduce Little Sue and Little Billy to Santa Claus, Jesus, The Horned God, Buddha, Zeus, Nietzsche, Machiavelli, Marx, Sun Tzu, Spiderman, and whatever else alongside with the science and math and psychology and so forth.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    Wait, what?

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    Wait, what?
    Loren is pretty damn rational. He just hates on the side which presently has more then minor control of the US government.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    Wait, what?
    Loren is pretty damn rational. He just hates on the side which presently has more then minor control of the US government.

    I'm aware that Loren is pretty rational. I was just making a dig at him, because it's not a good post unless you irritate someone. Or , in Cass' case, divulge private info.
    I think I'm going to stop asking questions in this thread, because I simply don't understand how this would happen, without a huge change to institutions that resist change.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    This kind of thing can only happen in pockets, and gradually, after major events, and will always have to be reinvigorated, because you will never completely get it to such a point that it's self-perpetuating.

    Religious conviction needs to royally fuck people over on the scale of hundreds of millions of people with money in a way that can't be waived away.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Also, how do we keep children from being irrational about religion, but irrational in the "Religion sucks! Blargh!" Way? Like, more than Loren.

    The basic point I'm trying to make, albeit very badly, is that this is a nice thought exercise, but we won't really ever be able to do anything like this beyond social pressures, which aren't exactly the most rational themselves.

    That's a really hard question - the value of religion is often determined by the investment of the one participating. There is, and this relates directly to indoctrination, a sort of suspension of disbelief required to get the most out of one's faith. This is why it's not always feasible to become involved at a later age, you only have one time in your life when you are open to the kind of innocent acceptance it takes to be truly reconciled with your faith. After that, if you try again later with a skeptical or closed mind, not only do you not get the common benefits to the religious experiences, the words themselves wont hold any real meaning for you.

    Converts are possible, sure, they get all the good things one experiences by being a good person. But I don't think they experience God in the same way you do if you're born to the faith. There is a kind of understanding, a communion of sorts that occurs to those who accept at a young age. I feel bad for those who haven't been able and won't ever be able to experience that level of connection. When we deny this connection to our youth, and try to kindle up something later, it is just not the same. It's like the faith works but it is half-crippled, missing a key component that would put all the pieces together.

    I often wonder if the hostility directed at the faith is a result of missing out on this part. It's got to suck to hear about the wonder of God but never get it. Never understand it, never feel it, just be surrounded by people who yap about it while on the inside you think they must all be full of crap. After all, if it was real you would feel it, right? You would catch onto something, you would understand something, you would feel something. If there was truly something there, it should be quantifiable, something measurable with direct and precise instructions on how to obtain it.

    To know and never have - it always seems the biggest detractors to the faith are the ones who could not find thier way into obtaining its real rewards. It's like if they couldn't make it, then it must not be real, or not be important. Maybe there is a feeling that the faith would find them unworthy, and so there is a counterstrike to save grace, deeming the faith unworthy because it would not accept them as they are. It's funny how those who reject the faith never leave it, they almost always remain involved in some way, even as its enemy. I'd be bitter too if the guy who loves everyone decided I wasn't good enough. I'm not really the grudge holding type, but I can see how that sort of thing could twist itself up into a little ball of hate just waiting for a moment to strike back.

    I hope religion becomes more accepting in the future. I myself hold a fairly open veiw about a great many things which I feel are backed up by a handful of religions, not just Christianity. I would encourage my children to become involved with my own reading and understanding, and I would hope that they become connected to thier beliefs in the same way I was as a child. They will be different beleifs than what i was taught, but I hope they still experience the joy of it and the desire to keep improving and honing it. I'd like to see religions become more amalgamated, less dogmatic and more open to change. I think many parts of it should be open to review, so that others can see what we are teaching our children.

    I think it would be fascinating to see crime rates along 'indoctrinated' lines, to see if we are as good as we think we are, to see if the position is justified. I think it's about time someone put it to the test - do faith based families show less violent crime, higher wages, and better education levels than those who claim nothing? All of these things are totally quantifiable, easy to measure. For any other sweeping social change, there would be an assload of studies and data. Show me some evidence to suggest where changes should be made. I think hard data would go a long way in helping people make up thier minds without becoming resentful.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    If that were true, Sarc, I'd still be knocking on doors of a Saturday morning. Either that or you're going to start referring to us religion-leavers as 'broken', at which point I'll start getting really snippy.

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  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    If that were true, Sarc, I'd still be knocking on doors of a Saturday morning. Either that or you're going to start referring to us religion-leavers as 'broken', at which point I'll start getting really snippy.

    Nope - y'know, for some it just doesn't take. Take the same family, two kids, maybe a year apart. One gets the Inner Light, and the other - not so much. Whatever the little switch is didn't get flicked on in that one. It's sort of the white elephant in a close church, why one finds deep personal satisfaction and another just begins a long dark road of bitterness and resentment. I would guess it has something to do with the natural mindstate of the kid, but I ain't touching that. There's a ton of reasons why people wash out of thier faiths, and a ton more why it can be amazingly rough to do so.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    If that were true, Sarc, I'd still be knocking on doors of a Saturday morning. Either that or you're going to start referring to us religion-leavers as 'broken', at which point I'll start getting really snippy.

    Nope - y'know, for some it just doesn't take. Take the same family, two kids, maybe a year apart. One gets the Inner Light, and the other - not so much. Whatever the little switch is didn't get flicked on in that one. It's sort of the white elephant in a close church, why one finds deep personal satisfaction and another just begins a long dark road of bitterness and resentment. I would guess it has something to do with the natural mindstate of the kid, but I ain't touching that. There's a ton of reasons why people wash out of thier faiths, and a ton more why it can be amazingly rough to do so.

    Ah. I'm broken. Thanks for that, well appreciated.
    Spoiler:

    By the way? Totally not bitter or resentful of my godbag family. We get on pretty well, and I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. So you can take your smug bullshit and shove it.

    tmsig.jpg
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro, you're awfully smug for someone who's defending the prospect of beleiving in lies and delusions.

    It's pretty obvious that you're missing something. It's kind of sad that you may never know what that is.

    2ezikn6.jpg
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    That's a really hard question - the value of religion is often determined by the investment of the one participating. There is, and this relates directly to indoctrination, a sort of suspension of disbelief required to get the most out of one's faith. This is why it's not always feasible to become involved at a later age, you only have one time in your life when you are open to the kind of innocent acceptance it takes to be truly reconciled with your faith. After that, if you try again later with a skeptical or closed mind, not only do you not get the common benefits to the religious experiences, the words themselves wont hold any real meaning for you.

    This is why people still lie to their kids about Santa and the Easter Bunny -- my grandparents actually kept my dad believing in both until he was -13-. Sesame Street probably holds the same effect over many youngsters.

    That "magical innocence" period is very popular in cultures with the concept of "childhood" (which is NOT as common as we think) even when we intend to break it later as a coming-of-age ritual.
    Converts are possible, sure, they get all the good things one experiences by being a good person. But I don't think they experience God in the same way you do if you're born to the faith. There is a kind of understanding, a communion of sorts that occurs to those who accept at a young age. I feel bad for those who haven't been able and won't ever be able to experience that level of connection. When we deny this connection to our youth, and try to kindle up something later, it is just not the same. It's like the faith works but it is half-crippled, missing a key component that would put all the pieces together.

    You're talking about blind faith, basically?
    I often wonder if the hostility directed at the faith is a result of missing out on this part. It's got to suck to hear about the wonder of God but never get it. Never understand it, never feel it, just be surrounded by people who yap about it while on the inside you think they must all be full of crap. After all, if it was real you would feel it, right? You would catch onto something, you would understand something, you would feel something. If there was truly something there, it should be quantifiable, something measurable with direct and precise instructions on how to obtain it.

    Have you ever had a manic high? It's an amazingly wonderful feeling. Like you're having the best sugar rush there is, but without the sugar.

    It does not negate that it's attached to a problem with your brain.

    Many of us who are born inside a religious family simply do not have the "faith reaction," as it were. The intoxication with belief is not available to us. When I was a child, maybe even before 1st grade, since I learned to read early, I started realizing what the people at the church were actually saying and singing, and that they actually believed in it. I felt the same way I now do when surrounded by dangerous-looking hobos in a part of town I don't know, and I never went back to any religious ground unless for an event I -had- to go to.

    My actual association with magical beings didn't die quite as quickly; the last instance of prayer from my person was when I had accidentally gotten dirt in my cat's eye while trying to scare him back toward the house. But it went something like this in my head, "If whatever entities do exist, please let Blaze* be okay. Bast or whoever else. I will not worship you, but thanks just in case." *My cat.

    The cat turned out to be fine, I made my little mental thank you, and that was the last.

    At no point in my life could I -ever- stomach the idea of worship. Even as a little kid. It is alien to my brain chemistry. Respecting powerful people as friends? -Sure-. If Bast did exist, I would totally hang out at the arcade with her. Zeus? So long as he kept his kinks to himself, we could totally go and watch 300 and TMNT back to back.

    Worship? I'd be more comfortable with a sex change. From day 1.
    To know and never have - it always seems the biggest detractors to the faith are the ones who could not find thier way into obtaining its real rewards. It's like if they couldn't make it, then it must not be real, or not be important. Maybe there is a feeling that the faith would find them unworthy, and so there is a counterstrike to save grace, deeming the faith unworthy because it would not accept them as they are. It's funny how those who reject the faith never leave it, they almost always remain involved in some way, even as its enemy. I'd be bitter too if the guy who loves everyone decided I wasn't good enough. I'm not really the grudge holding type, but I can see how that sort of thing could twist itself up into a little ball of hate just waiting for a moment to strike back.

    -"Real rewards" is the kind of argument my emo cousin was trying to give me about his drug use.

    -Religion rules the world. You can't really ignore it without ignoring the world.

    -Most people who get upset with religion only hate it because it's such a powerful and proven tool for evil, with evil (from a humanist-type perspective, say) being all over the most powerful religions.

    -I will state, if any entity, deity or otherwise, had the morals expressed in the Abrahamic texts, they would be my enemy the same way any horrible person would be. I'm pretty sure I'd want to see pretty much every deity in the Greek pantheon behind bars, to boot.
    I hope religion becomes more accepting in the future. I myself hold a fairly open veiw about a great many things which I feel are backed up by a handful of religions, not just Christianity. I would encourage my children to become involved with my own reading and understanding, and I would hope that they become connected to thier beliefs in the same way I was as a child. They will be different beleifs than what i was taught, but I hope they still experience the joy of it and the desire to keep improving and honing it. I'd like to see religions become more amalgamated, less dogmatic and more open to change. I think many parts of it should be open to review, so that others can see what we are teaching our children.

    I think it would be fascinating to see crime rates along 'indoctrinated' lines, to see if we are as good as we think we are, to see if the position is justified. I think it's about time someone put it to the test - do faith based families show less violent crime, higher wages, and better education levels than those who claim nothing? All of these things are totally quantifiable, easy to measure. For any other sweeping social change, there would be an assload of studies and data. Show me some evidence to suggest where changes should be made. I think hard data would go a long way in helping people make up thier minds without becoming resentful.

    Last I heard, atheists and agnostics were much less likely to end up in jail than religious people. Also the lowest divorce rate, along with Catholics.


    --

    TheCat: Maybe your inner light is on a clapper. You could be like Tinkerbell.

    freefallagentad_zps635a83ed.png
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    If that were true, Sarc, I'd still be knocking on doors of a Saturday morning. Either that or you're going to start referring to us religion-leavers as 'broken', at which point I'll start getting really snippy.

    Nope - y'know, for some it just doesn't take. Take the same family, two kids, maybe a year apart. One gets the Inner Light, and the other - not so much. Whatever the little switch is didn't get flicked on in that one. It's sort of the white elephant in a close church, why one finds deep personal satisfaction and another just begins a long dark road of bitterness and resentment. I would guess it has something to do with the natural mindstate of the kid, but I ain't touching that. There's a ton of reasons why people wash out of thier faiths, and a ton more why it can be amazingly rough to do so.

    Ah. I'm broken. Thanks for that, well appreciated.
    Spoiler:

    By the way? Totally not bitter or resentful of my godbag family. We get on pretty well, and I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out. So you can take your smug bullshit and shove it.

    What?! WTF Cat, I didn't say anything of the kind - stop putting words into my mouth.

    The two kids were a fucking hypothetical. You weren't in that picture.

    If you care, what I meant was that whatever it would have taken to motivate you in that way wasn't present or wasn't given to you. That's not a fault, in being or in thinking. It just is that way.

    For fucks sake, if you want to launch off about one of your siblings being the fucking goldenchild, by all means go ahead. If you want to share more about your own indoctrination, obviously gone horribly awry, I think that would be fascinating. But lets not accuse of things I did not do, yes?

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Dude, you said she just happens to be someone who has no inner light sensors.

    That's BROKEN.

    Unless you're saying that Christians are mutants.

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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2007
    No, sorry, that wasn't even solely about me. you don't get to refer to non-religious kids as 'starting down a dark path' without coming off as incredibly smug and superior. That you can't see how you come off is regrettable.

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  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro, you're awfully smug for someone who's defending the prospect of beleiving in lies and delusions.

    It's pretty obvious that you're missing something. It's kind of sad that you may never know what that is.

    I feel the same way about you. Honestly. I think it's fair to say that neither one of us would ever want to see the world from the other's point of view.

    But lets stick to the topic, yes? Anything to add you haven't said already?

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    That you can't see how you come off is because of indoctrination.

    Fixed

    [/Veterinarian]

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  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    It's pretty obvious that you're missing something. It's kind of sad that you may never know what that is.

    I feel the same way about you.

    I know. That was kind of the point.

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  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    The Cat wrote: »
    No, sorry, that wasn't even solely about me. you don't get to refer to non-religious kids as 'starting down a dark path' without coming off as incredibly smug and superior. That you can't see how you come off is regrettable.

    I wasn't even refering to 'non-religious' kids, just two kids. For some reason, going through the same stuff, hearing and doing the same things will produce opposing results. It's common. The more intense the indoctrination, the more marked this effect is - it's going to be one way or the other.

    I'm sorry you feel you have to make up bad ideas for me to have. I will grant you this, it is amazingly hard to defend the faith for any length of time without sounding superior. Its hard to defend any idea for any length of time and not sound smug and superior. Don't pretend you haven't gone down that road.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcasto:

    1) You're sounding like a self-righteous ass. Consider your words.

    2) Two kids? You were using them as an example of everyone in similar households who have differing views on religion. Please spare us the bullshit of saying you just meant two specific imaginary people.

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  • GnastyGnasty Registered User
    edited April 2007
    Sar: So, you think people either have an "Inner Light" or they don't? Would you say that this is based on someone's biological/psychological makeup (which could easily mean that your Inner Light is nothing more than being more susceptible to indoctrination, (which is basically what you are describing when you talk about small children blindly accepting religion)), or is it some kind of spiritual, God-forgot-to-include-a-part kind of thing?

    i just wanna 'be myself'
  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    That you can't see how you come off is because of indoctrination.

    Fixed

    [/Veterinarian]

    You have no idea how true that is, Incenjucar. I left the faith a long time ago, and swore I'd never go back. I was drilled for hours every day for most of my childhood and teens. What is being talked about as 'Indoctrination' isn't even a shadow of the real deal. It annoys me to have the term casually used, by people who have no clue as to just how hard hard can be.

    As angry as I am for what was done to me in my youth, and as far as I would never see that sort of thing happen to anyone else, I still beleive that there is something good there. I'd fight for the right of those who are more moderate in thier beliefs, good people trying to be good deserve assistance. I do have a hard time defending this specific aspect without giving way to a portion of it.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • FencingsaxFencingsax Bondage Discipline Spider-Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    That you can't see how you come off is because of indoctrination.

    Fixed

    [/Veterinarian]

    You have no idea how true that is, Incenjucar. I left the faith a long time ago, and swore I'd never go back. I was drilled for hours every day for most of my childhood and teens. What is being talked about as 'Indoctrination' isn't even a shadow of the real deal. It annoys me to have the term casually used, by people who have no clue as to just how hard hard can be.

    As angry as I am for what was done to me in my youth, and as far as I would never see that sort of thing happen to anyone else, I still beleive that there is something good there. I'd fight for the right of those who are more moderate in thier beliefs, good people trying to be good deserve assistance. I do have a hard time defending this specific aspect without giving way to a portion of it.

    Good isn't found in religion, but in actions.

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Indoctrination is a parental responsibility.

    edit: I see this has gotten into a religious discussion. No comment on that, but I do think that moral indoctrination is important and necessary.

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  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Gnasty wrote: »
    Sar: So, you think people either have an "Inner Light" or they don't? Would you say that this is based on someone's biological/psychological makeup (which could easily mean that your Inner Light is nothing more than being more susceptible to indoctrination, (which is basically what you are describing when you talk about small children blindly accepting religion)), or is it some kind of spiritual, God-forgot-to-include-a-part kind of thing?

    I'm not really sure. I've seen kids that have just swallowed the whole thing, very last breath of it, and they literally radiate. They are unshakable in their faith and belief, and they have a whole system to support them in this understanding. They are unbelievably joyful people. They are the sort of people you want to know more about, instinctively.

    I used to think it was the acceptance of the ongoing indoctrination that did the trick. Some kids resist instinctivly to whats going on around them, the rebel reflex. They either get broken or they don't. I don't mean broken as in damaged, exactly. I'm referring to a moment when their resistance just snaps. Its an amazing thing, one day they are Mr Fuckinsurly, and within just a few days the old attitude is gone, and the new attitude glows. '

    But later, I began to see this effect in more than just believers. There is a system of internal beliefs that just continuosly generates more and more personal energy. These people are unstoppable, always moving, always motivated, always ready to do what needs to be done next. They radiate in the same way.

    There is some trick there, some rigging of one's thoughts which turns the body on like a lightswitch. If you can do it early in a persons life, they benefit all that much more from having it. I don't think everyone can get to this state, it requires a certain awareness of self and surroundings. An understanding which is reached within themselves. Instruction can sort of lead you up to that point, but to get that perpetual motion machine running requires a certain twist of self. Its just way more common in faith based circles than in the majority at large. Something in the way the faith commits you to your life spurs on this effect.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    Sarcastro: Again, sounds like a drug experience. Alternatively, losing your virginity.

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  • SarcastroSarcastro Registered User regular
    edited April 2007
    You're not far off, Incen. A religious high, which is actually pretty damn easy to orchestrate feels pretty much exactly like MDMA.

    I liked your comment about the 'faith reaction'. I had thought you were referring to the high some people get when they really groove on the experience. Some people are just wired for it. Some aren't. It's easy to see how faith can literally be addicting.

    Edcrab wrote: »
    "See," said Lucifer, "God's an asshole."
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited April 2007
    As I recall, there's actually a part of the brain that is involved in various forms of "religious" experience. Basically, you decrease some of the oxygen going to that part of the brain, and you get a very nice high.

    This is why you get groups doing lots of crazy energetic stuff, drug use, or meditation.

    You do not actually need religion to access that high, however.

    I've actually managed to simulate drunkenness in myself on two or three occasions. I basically giggle like a moron at any joke, lose fine motor control, and have a very slow reaction time.

    And it was contagious.


    Almost slammed a fork lift through a wall doing that though... so I decided to keep it at bay.

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