A good movie was buried under it. That's why directors shouldn't have Kurtzman and Orci writing their movies.
edit: Making Harrison Khan was dumb and a reveal every Trek fan saw coming before the movie as in production.
And one that was presented with zero backstory or explanation, so the only people it could possibly have impact on was fans who already knew who Khan was (and who consequently saw it coming since before the movie was even in production). People who had no idea who Khan was just saw a character change his name from X to Y with no explanation why Y was greater than X or why it mattered.
A good movie was buried under it. That's why directors shouldn't have Kurtzman and Orci writing their movies.
edit: Making Harrison Khan was dumb and a reveal every Trek fan saw coming before the movie as in production.
And one that was presented with zero backstory or explanation, so the only people it could possibly have impact on was fans who already knew who Khan was (and who consequently saw it coming since before the movie was even in production). People who had no idea who Khan was just saw a character change his name from X to Y with no explanation why Y was greater than X or why it mattered.
It was pretty funny seeing how my girlfriend did not at all react to that scene. She was super into the first one, because Star Trek is a charming setting and the new movie was a pretty rollicking if imperfect take on that universe. Into Darkness just had a lot of weird inaccessibility in addition to being poorly plotted.
A lot of people just jumped on board because the last one was fun, who the fuck thinks any of them will be excited by Khan?
A good movie was buried under it. That's why directors shouldn't have Kurtzman and Orci writing their movies.
edit: Making Harrison Khan was dumb and a reveal every Trek fan saw coming before the movie as in production.
And one that was presented with zero backstory or explanation, so the only people it could possibly have impact on was fans who already knew who Khan was (and who consequently saw it coming since before the movie was even in production). People who had no idea who Khan was just saw a character change his name from X to Y with no explanation why Y was greater than X or why it mattered.
It was pretty funny seeing how my girlfriend did not at all react to that scene. She was super into the first one, because Star Trek is a charming setting and the new movie was a pretty rollicking if imperfect take on that universe. Into Darkness just had a lot of weird inaccessibility in addition to being poorly plotted.
A lot of people just jumped on board because the last one was fun, who the fuck thinks any of them will be excited by Khan?
They didn't even do much with Khan either. The new audience they're making this for has no idea who that is and the movie barely explains it.
Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if they just wrote the names of Star Trek villains on a die and rolled it to see who Harrison would reveal himself to be. The movie would have worked exactly the same if he had said: "Harrison is just a cover. My real name is... Gary Mitchell." Or "Harrison is just a cover. My real name is... Harry Mudd." Or "Harrison is just a cover. My real name is... that guy who lives forever on that one planet and who was Shakespeare and who built a robot girlfriend."
It's a shame, because the first act really drew me in with actually acknowledging that some of the first movie was actually really dumb and there were consequences for your actions.
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
eh, even then he was justified.
He was afraid that they were going to betray him and renege on their deal, which they totally did.
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
eh, even then he was justified.
He was afraid that they were going to betray him and neg on their deal, which they totally did.
True. I'd have liked it with Khan not being so predictable. The second their deal's off he practically twirls his mustache and loses what sympathy he had with the audience. To me, anyway.
edit: Imagine had that scene went with Khan not being the one who betrayed the deal and it was the Enterprise who were the bad guys in that situation.
Harry Dresden on
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
eh, even then he was justified.
He was afraid that they were going to betray him and neg on their deal, which they totally did.
True. I'd have liked it with Khan not being so predictable. The second their deal's off he practically twirls his mustache and loses what sympathy he had with the audience. To me, anyway.
They did shoot him first.
edit to your edit: As I recall it did. Kirk and Co. shot him before he "went bad" and Spock and Co. already removed his crew and were planning on giving him live torpedoes (though I guess that was "for insurance")
I didn't mind Cumberbatch being Khan. I minded that they acted like it mattered without establishing what it meant within the movie.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
eh, even then he was justified.
He was afraid that they were going to betray him and neg on their deal, which they totally did.
True. I'd have liked it with Khan not being so predictable. The second their deal's off he practically twirls his mustache and loses what sympathy he had with the audience. To me, anyway.
They did shoot him first.
Then Khan coldly tells them he's going to kill them all by depriving them of oxygen if they don't do what he says, after threatening to murder Kirk and his friends on the bridge to show his resolve.
edit to your edit: As I recall it did. Kirk and Co. shot him before he "went bad" and Spock and Co. already removed his crew and were planning on giving him live torpedoes (though I guess that was "for insurance")
Maybe so, but the audience was still on their side. At no point does the audience side against them, that's one of my beef's with the movie - especially with Kirk getting his way all the time despite being an irresponsible selfish jerk. I was on Spock's side 100%.
They just shouldn't have had the Klingons, Marcus, and Khan all in the story. The whole thing became too scattered and didn't focus enough attention on each of the plot threads. They should have done just the Klingon threat and Admiral Marcus or just Admiral Marcus and Khan.
It would have been interesting if they actually built up the threat of the Klingons so that Admiral Marcus would have legitimate reasons for wanting to militarize Starfleet and going behind everyone's backs because he was getting shut down by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council. Maybe the Klingons managed to learn a lot about the Narada's tech and started building much more advanced and powerful ships, allowing them to conquer more worlds, maybe even starting a war with the Romulans. Maybe after the destruction of Vulcan, other Federation worlds believe that Starfleet can't protect them so they're leaving the Federation and joining the Klingon Empire for protection. The main plot of the movie could have been about the Federation trying to stop the Klingons from annexing former Federation worlds, with Admiral Marcus wanting to do it in an underhanded way like starting a civil war in the Klingon Empire, but Kirk and the Enterprise foil his plot, regain the trust of the former Federation worlds, and maybe earn the respect of the Klingons as worthy adversaries.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies.
and I'm still not clear what the fuck is going on with the ending, they're in orbit of Earth right? And their communications work? Doesn't peter weller's plan fail right then and there because you can't really secretly destroy the flagship of the Federation in orbit of the capitol of the Federation?
The real sin of that movie though isn't how bad it was, it's how good the first half of the movie was. The dilemma of using secret long distance weapons to assassinate people isn't the kind of thing that has an easy answer
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
They just shouldn't have had the Klingons, Marcus, and Khan all in the story. The whole thing became too scattered and didn't focus enough attention on each of the plot threads. They should have done just the Klingon threat and Admiral Marcus or just Admiral Marcus and Khan.
They didn't use the Klingons much though. The Klingons are just there as background to the Marcus/Khan/Kirk fight.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
"like the ships you have now but bigger and with more guns"
I don't really buy it
Khan is brilliant right, but even in the context of the time he came from he wasn't brilliant as a weapons designer or an engineer, he was extremely charismatic and effective as a ruler and a general. I'm also not a fan of how they turned "stronger and quicker than other humans" into an X-Men character
Space Seed (and later ST2)'s Khan I definitely buy as a charismatic ruler.
basically there was no reason to bring Khan into this story at all
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
"like the ships you have now but bigger and with more guns"
I don't really buy it
Khan is brilliant right, but even in the context of the time he came from he wasn't brilliant as a weapons designer or an engineer, he was extremely charismatic and effective as a ruler and a general. I'm also not a fan of how they turned "stronger and quicker than other humans" into an X-Men character
Space Seed (and later ST2)'s Khan I definitely buy as a charismatic ruler.
basically there was no reason to bring Khan into this story at all
The funny thing is basically nothing about the story changes if you change who Cumberbatch is. As long as he's a super-smart guy with super-blood (and that background could come from dozens of other places), the story is basically completely unchanged.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
I still assert that Starfeet is run by morons and unspeakably benevolent, hyper intelligent, all knowing, computers. The computer lets them bang away at control consoles like trained chimps and rewards them with whatever they asked for. The Dominion War was The Founders vs Starfeet's vast hyper connected computer system and a bunch of Dilbert characters. The war with the borg was largely fought computer system to computer system.
I still assert that Starfeet is run by morons and unspeakably benevolent, hyper intelligent, all knowing, computers. The computer lets them bang away at control consoles like trained chimps and rewards them with whatever they asked for. The Dominion War was The Founders vs Starfeet's vast hyper connected computer system and a bunch of Dilbert characters. The war with the borg was largely fought computer system to computer system.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I still assert that Starfeet is run by morons and unspeakably benevolent, hyper intelligent, all knowing, computers. The computer lets them bang away at control consoles like trained chimps and rewards them with whatever they asked for. The Dominion War was The Founders vs Starfeet's vast hyper connected computer system and a bunch of Dilbert characters. The war with the borg was largely fought computer system to computer system.
I still assert that Starfeet is run by morons and unspeakably benevolent, hyper intelligent, all knowing, computers. The computer lets them bang away at control consoles like trained chimps and rewards them with whatever they asked for. The Dominion War was The Founders vs Starfeet's vast hyper connected computer system and a bunch of Dilbert characters. The war with the borg was largely fought computer system to computer system.
If you've got full consciousness real-time, or slightly delayed backup for the AI's. then the destruction of specific ships isn't even that bad for the Federation Minds. If a ship is destroyed, just activate the backup.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
In Starfleet their naval ships are heavily armed like whoa. Then there's the flagships like Enterprise, where they have to be put against literal deities to get curbstomped.
I think the biggest problem with the reboot is that they just don't want to do any actual world building. They're relying entirely on people's general knowledge of Star Trek. They're too lazy to show what the Federation is like and develop Starfleet and its function. The fact that most people kind of know what the Federation and Starfleet are and that they're the good guys is enough for them. People have a general idea of what all the characters are like just from pop culture so they don't bother trying to develop them for this new universe. Same thing with the aliens like the Klingons. People know that the Klingons are basically warriors and that they were the bad guys in TOS so they'll make the Klingons bad guys again without bothering to show how the Klingons are a threat in this universe.
That's why I think it'll actually be a good idea to get away from the Federation and Starfleet. If they do something with the Romulans or Klingons, they'll actually have to flesh out those races and actually develop the characters and societies. Sure, people have a vague idea of what Klingons are like but not enough to build a movie around. If they actually did a Klingon movie, then they'd have to do real world building and develop the different factions and characters involved. Plus they can dig up stuff that the general public aren't really familiar with like the Klingon's feudal society and their different Houses. Then you have the Game of Thrones theme going on with the different Houses with their own maxims
Duras - Nothing is more honorable than victory.
Mogh - If you cannot control yourself, you cannot command others.
Chang - taH pagh taHbe'
Gowron - Great men do not seek power; it is thrust upon them.
Kor - The enemy of my enemy is the enemy I'll kill last.
After Into Darkness I want the next movie to be about the Klingon Empire, reacting to those events.
"Guys, the Federation can transport across the fucking galaxy right to our homeworld are we uh...we gonna do something about that?"
"No. Because the screenwriter is either too stupid or too lazy to understand the ramifications of the tech they've introduced."
Fixed.
There's an episode of The Next Generation that has them talk about the godlike power being able to instantly teleport across the galaxy would give you. They find an old hub station for this now extinct empire, and I think they had to blow it up to keep the Romulans from getting control or something like that.
Battletag BYToady#1454
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
Starfleet typically enjoys relative technological dominance
when their back is against the wall vs the Dominion or against the Klingons in the first war (the upcoming Axanar movie) though, they get real and make ships designed to murder first and science second and they're pound for pound more effective than the enemy
it must be real hard for starfleet ship builders to have to throw out the dolphin tank or the fourteenth holodeck to make room for shield generators and phaser banks though
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
Starfleet typically enjoys relative technological dominance
when their back is against the wall vs the Dominion or against the Klingons in the first war (the upcoming Axanar movie) though, they get real and make ships designed to murder first and science second and they're pound for pound more effective than the enemy
it must be real hard for starfleet ship builders to have to throw out the dolphin tank or the fourteenth holodeck to make room for shield generators and phaser banks though
"But this is the perfect spot for the arboretum! I mean where else are you going to put it?"
"…"
"What. do. you. mean. NOWHERE? I am SO done with this project!"
If you're deployed for really long periods of time, it makes sense to include comforts to keep the crew and families from going insane. The majority of the Enterprise's time is spent in deep space doing scientific and diplomatic missions, not shooting pew pew.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
Starfleet typically enjoys relative technological dominance
when their back is against the wall vs the Dominion or against the Klingons in the first war (the upcoming Axanar movie) though, they get real and make ships designed to murder first and science second and they're pound for pound more effective than the enemy
it must be real hard for starfleet ship builders to have to throw out the dolphin tank or the fourteenth holodeck to make room for shield generators and phaser banks though
Given that they don't pay their ship builders anyway I imagine it's kind of like herding cats to get any kind of military shift going on, unless the threat is so great that it absolutely terrifies everyone enough to want to start building warships.
I love how they resurrected Khan, the legendary military general to help them defeat the klingons by having him design starships
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
Starfleet typically enjoys relative technological dominance
when their back is against the wall vs the Dominion or against the Klingons in the first war (the upcoming Axanar movie) though, they get real and make ships designed to murder first and science second and they're pound for pound more effective than the enemy
it must be real hard for starfleet ship builders to have to throw out the dolphin tank or the fourteenth holodeck to make room for shield generators and phaser banks though
"But this is the perfect spot for the arboretum! I mean where else are you going to put it?"
"…"
"What. do. you. mean. NOWHERE? I am SO done with this project!"
How many holodecks do you even really need? The holodeck seems to support people separating far apart (in holo-world, anyways). Couldn't you just cram a whole bunch of people into the same holodeck and generate separate holo-environments for them within the same holodeck?
(Maybe I shouldn't think too hard about this, or I'll start wondering why people don't ever walk into the walls of the holodeck. Secret holotreadmills underneath them?)
They probably have that group of shipbuilders off playing the extremely detailed and hyperrealistic version of Starfleet Ship Battles on dedicated holodeck networks. When a war is on they're like "hey btw what's the top rated federation warship in the 2370 sims... just you know, curious" and get back 600 highly contentious emails about how fucking cool this or that custom design is.
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And one that was presented with zero backstory or explanation, so the only people it could possibly have impact on was fans who already knew who Khan was (and who consequently saw it coming since before the movie was even in production). People who had no idea who Khan was just saw a character change his name from X to Y with no explanation why Y was greater than X or why it mattered.
It was pretty funny seeing how my girlfriend did not at all react to that scene. She was super into the first one, because Star Trek is a charming setting and the new movie was a pretty rollicking if imperfect take on that universe. Into Darkness just had a lot of weird inaccessibility in addition to being poorly plotted.
A lot of people just jumped on board because the last one was fun, who the fuck thinks any of them will be excited by Khan?
They didn't even do much with Khan either. The new audience they're making this for has no idea who that is and the movie barely explains it.
Sherlock: "My name is... Khan."
Kirk: "Who?"
Sherlock: "Khan. You know! Legendary dictator? Guys?"
It's a shame, because the first act really drew me in with actually acknowledging that some of the first movie was actually really dumb and there were consequences for your actions.
And also that they made him evil cause I think a far more interesting idea would be establishing, maybe only to Spock?, that he's a bad guy and he can't be trusted and then ultimately show that it's the Federation admiral guy who can't be trusted and Khan just wants his family back.
Khan was disjointed. Through the movie they paint him as sympathetic, if an asshole. Yet they drop all pretense that he's evil when he gets hold of the Vengeance. It'd have been better if he was somewhat honorable, even with warped super-villain values. Another angle they failed with Khan.
eh, even then he was justified.
He was afraid that they were going to betray him and renege on their deal, which they totally did.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
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True. I'd have liked it with Khan not being so predictable. The second their deal's off he practically twirls his mustache and loses what sympathy he had with the audience. To me, anyway.
edit: Imagine had that scene went with Khan not being the one who betrayed the deal and it was the Enterprise who were the bad guys in that situation.
They did shoot him first.
edit to your edit: As I recall it did. Kirk and Co. shot him before he "went bad" and Spock and Co. already removed his crew and were planning on giving him live torpedoes (though I guess that was "for insurance")
It’s not a very important country most of the time
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Then Khan coldly tells them he's going to kill them all by depriving them of oxygen if they don't do what he says, after threatening to murder Kirk and his friends on the bridge to show his resolve.
Maybe so, but the audience was still on their side. At no point does the audience side against them, that's one of my beef's with the movie - especially with Kirk getting his way all the time despite being an irresponsible selfish jerk. I was on Spock's side 100%.
It would have been interesting if they actually built up the threat of the Klingons so that Admiral Marcus would have legitimate reasons for wanting to militarize Starfleet and going behind everyone's backs because he was getting shut down by Starfleet Command or the Federation Council. Maybe the Klingons managed to learn a lot about the Narada's tech and started building much more advanced and powerful ships, allowing them to conquer more worlds, maybe even starting a war with the Romulans. Maybe after the destruction of Vulcan, other Federation worlds believe that Starfleet can't protect them so they're leaving the Federation and joining the Klingon Empire for protection. The main plot of the movie could have been about the Federation trying to stop the Klingons from annexing former Federation worlds, with Admiral Marcus wanting to do it in an underhanded way like starting a civil war in the Klingon Empire, but Kirk and the Enterprise foil his plot, regain the trust of the former Federation worlds, and maybe earn the respect of the Klingons as worthy adversaries.
come on
it actually makes no sense, the reveal was just because Orcurtzman are hacks. If they're going to use Khan, it would be through his skills in rallying the masses and formulating battle strategies.
and I'm still not clear what the fuck is going on with the ending, they're in orbit of Earth right? And their communications work? Doesn't peter weller's plan fail right then and there because you can't really secretly destroy the flagship of the Federation in orbit of the capitol of the Federation?
The real sin of that movie though isn't how bad it was, it's how good the first half of the movie was. The dilemma of using secret long distance weapons to assassinate people isn't the kind of thing that has an easy answer
To be fair, he was a genetically enhanced superhuman. Not just in strength but in mind. He would just have to study to pick up new scientific concepts. And he showed a far more capable mind for actual combat than any starfleet officer or engineer up until Sisko. "You want this ship to shoot things? Why don't you put some guns on it."
They didn't use the Klingons much though. The Klingons are just there as background to the Marcus/Khan/Kirk fight.
"like the ships you have now but bigger and with more guns"
I don't really buy it
Khan is brilliant right, but even in the context of the time he came from he wasn't brilliant as a weapons designer or an engineer, he was extremely charismatic and effective as a ruler and a general. I'm also not a fan of how they turned "stronger and quicker than other humans" into an X-Men character
Space Seed (and later ST2)'s Khan I definitely buy as a charismatic ruler.
basically there was no reason to bring Khan into this story at all
The funny thing is basically nothing about the story changes if you change who Cumberbatch is. As long as he's a super-smart guy with super-blood (and that background could come from dozens of other places), the story is basically completely unchanged.
drones vs drones?
Sisko did end up putting so many guns on the Defiant that it couldn't even enter high warp without breaking apart.
I think most Starfleet are designed for versatility. The way that they're able to add new stuff and replace old stuff on the Enterprise D suggests that the ship's systems are very modular. Starfleet was able to refit their ships for war pretty easily. They even managed to upgrade ships built or designed 100 years ago enough to stand up to modern ships. A modern ship like the Galaxy or the Nebula can probably be modified to be extremely powerful if they took out the civilian areas, recreational space, diplomatic quarters, scientific equipment, etc. and replaced them with power generators, weapons, shields, and armor.
They can do the parasite conspiracy from TNG.
If you've got full consciousness real-time, or slightly delayed backup for the AI's. then the destruction of specific ships isn't even that bad for the Federation Minds. If a ship is destroyed, just activate the backup.
I've always found the comment someone made in an earlier thread about the Starfleet naval research vessel being able to go up against dedicated warships of other nations a insightful way of putting the differences in perspective.
In Starfleet their naval ships are heavily armed like whoa. Then there's the flagships like Enterprise, where they have to be put against literal deities to get curbstomped.
Why would he ever bring that up?
"Hey Old Man, did you know I banged you in the mirror-universe?"
"Christ, why did you have to tell me? Now this is just fucking awkward as shit."
There's an episode of The Next Generation that has them talk about the godlike power being able to instantly teleport across the galaxy would give you. They find an old hub station for this now extinct empire, and I think they had to blow it up to keep the Romulans from getting control or something like that.
Starfleet typically enjoys relative technological dominance
when their back is against the wall vs the Dominion or against the Klingons in the first war (the upcoming Axanar movie) though, they get real and make ships designed to murder first and science second and they're pound for pound more effective than the enemy
it must be real hard for starfleet ship builders to have to throw out the dolphin tank or the fourteenth holodeck to make room for shield generators and phaser banks though
They're actually 40 foot tall behemoths that roam their world looking for people to cram into their abdomens.
"But this is the perfect spot for the arboretum! I mean where else are you going to put it?"
"…"
"What. do. you. mean. NOWHERE? I am SO done with this project!"
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DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Given that they don't pay their ship builders anyway I imagine it's kind of like herding cats to get any kind of military shift going on, unless the threat is so great that it absolutely terrifies everyone enough to want to start building warships.
How many holodecks do you even really need? The holodeck seems to support people separating far apart (in holo-world, anyways). Couldn't you just cram a whole bunch of people into the same holodeck and generate separate holo-environments for them within the same holodeck?
(Maybe I shouldn't think too hard about this, or I'll start wondering why people don't ever walk into the walls of the holodeck. Secret holotreadmills underneath them?)