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[The Legend of Zelda] This thread only got a C rank. Shameful. Find the new one.

Maz-Maz- 飛べRegistered User regular
edited October 2014 in Games and Technology
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This..is the new Legend of Zelda.

Coming to Wii U in 2015, this new chapter in the Zelda series will expand the boundaries of Hyrule. Previous Zelda games have tried to convey the feeling that you're part of a huge, living world, but this game looks to be the first one to deliver on that promise. Just like A Link Between Worlds, this game will also challenge the tried-and-true conventions of the Zelda series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZmxvig1dXE

We don't know a whole lot more than that at the moment, but if this isn't enough to get you excited, then kindly get the fuck out of this thread.

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Hyrule Warriors

Platform: Wii U
Release date: 14th of August 2014 (Japan) / 19th of September (Europe) / 26th of September (North America)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOq4IiuRMWk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c8EEXL3L8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCV-wgt6_eQ

Hyrule Warriors is an upcoming spin-off game. It's a collaboration project between Nintendo and Tecmo Koei, who are creating a Zelda game in the vein of Tecmo Koei's Dynasty Warriors series. The focus will thus be on action, combat and epic battles against legions of enemies. The game's story is as follows:

Generations ago, Hyrule almost fell into a state of chaos, when a hero in green saved the day. The hero separated the evil force into 4 separate pieces, with one piece sealed away in the Master Sword, while the 3 other pieces were sent into the depths of the space time continuum somehow in hopes this would prevent any possible return. Ever since then, a sorceress has watched equilibrium of the Triforce through a special crystal. Now, the delicate balance of the Triforce has been disrupted. Cia, the sorceress of this generation, developed feelings for a young knight trainee named Link, but those feelings turned into jealousy when she saw his close relationship with Zelda, the Princess of Hyrule. Her jealousy made her succumb to the dark power that she was supposed to watch over, and her spirit was corrupted. Now, Hyrule Kingdom is once again being torn apart by the dark power unleashed by Cia.

True to its Dynasty Warriors roots, this game will feature a lot of playable characters. Each of them will have access to at least two different weapons.

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Link, The Hero

Weapons: Hylian Sword / Magic Rod / Gauntlet / Great Fairy

A young recruit in Hyrule's Army who possesses the Triforce of Courage. He is brought into the center of the incoming conflict when his relationship with the Princess draws the ire of the witch Cia.


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Impa, Hyrulean Captain

Weapons: Giant Blade / Naginata

The Commanding Officer of the Hyrule Imperial Guard, and vassal and attendant to Princess Zelda. Impa works tirelessly as a loyal servant to her liege as her family has before her.


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Zelda, Princess of Hyrule

Weapons: Rapier / Baton

The Princess of Hyrule, who bears the Triforce of Wisdom. Foreseeing the signs of the impending war, she bravely leads her army to face the incoming darkness.


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Sheik, Sheikah Warrior

Weapon: Harp

A mysterious Sheikah warrior who comes to aid the Hyrulean Forces when Princess Zelda goes missing. Possesses the Lens of Truth.


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Lana, The White Sorceress

Weapons: Book of Sorcery / Spear / Summoning Gate

An energetic and straightforward witch who shares a mysterious connection with Cia. She is knowledgeable about spells, monsters, and using spells on monsters. Likely connected to the goddess Nayru in some way.


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Midna, Twilight Princess

Weapon: Shackle

The haughty Princess of the Twilight Realm. When she wandered away from her palace she was cursed into the form of an imp by Cia and is searching for a way to return to her true form.


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Agitha, Princess of Insects?

Weapon: Parasol

An odd, but kind ten-year-old girl going by the self-proclaimed title of the Princess of Insects who wandered into the battlefield from the Twilight Era. When she came under attack from the Dark Forces, she was saved by Lana. She then joined her cause as a sign of gratitude.


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Fi, The Goddess Sword

Weapon: Goddess Blade

A servant of the Goddess Hylia from the Era of the Sky and the personification of the legendary Goddess Sword, which eventually became the Master Sword. When the Era of the Sky is connected through Cia's portals, Link awakens her and she pledges to aid the young hero.


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Ruto, Zora Princess

Weapon: Zora Scale

The Princess of Zora's Domain, Sage of Water and the holder of the Zora Sapphire. She joins the war to protect the Water Temple.


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Darunia, Goron Chief

Weapon: Hammer

The Chief of the Gorons of Death Mountain, Sage of Fire and the holder of the Goron Ruby. Likes a hot beat.


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Zant, Usurper King

Weapon: Scimitar

The Usurper King who betrayed the Royal Family he once served and took control of the Twilight Realm. Although once defeated, he was summoned by Cia through the Gate of Souls.


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Ghirahim, Demon Lord

Weapon: Demon Blade

The reigning lord of the demons that prowl the Surface World in the Era of the Sky.


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Ganondorf, The Demon King

Weapon: Great Sword

It's motherfucking Ganondorf with a badass mullet.


Villains:


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Cia, The Black Sorceress

Cia was once tasked with maintaining the balance of the Triforce, before she fell in love with Link. Her heartbreak for Link and jealousy towards Zelda for getting to be with him left her vulnerable to corruption from an evil being.


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Wizzro, The Magician of Darkness

Originally a ring that increased its power by luring in people and absorbing their powers, Wizzro was reborn as a sorcerer thanks to Cia's magic.


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Volga, The Scorching Berserker

An ally of Cia, he made a deal with Cia and sold his soul in order to gain more power. Headstrong and bloodthirsty, Valga commands Cia's forces in the war with Hyrule.



Miscellaneous stuff

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Hyrule Historia is fucking amazing and you need to buy it right now.

The Legend of Zelda: Symphony of the Goddesses is equally great and you should buy some tickets.

The official timeline. Don't whine about it, don't argue about it, accept it.

Skyward Sword motion controls - they work! Let Justin Timberlake show you how.

Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
Maz- on
«13456799

Posts

  • DelphinidaesDelphinidaes FFXIV: Delphi Kisaragi Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    So there is a new Zelda coming eh? For some reason I thought it was just a random rumor.

    That's one more thing i'm excited for about this upcoming E3.

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  • Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    I'm gonna update the OP with all the new Hyrule Warriors info sometime this weekend, either on Friday or Sunday.

    Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    edited May 2014
    It's not a huge surprise but looks like Minish Cap will be coming to Wii U virtual console 'soon'.

    skeldare on
    Nintendo Console Codes
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    HAIL HYDRA
  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

    100%? They already said they are working on Zelda U. They almost showed it last e3....

    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    Yup.

    Also: calling Hyrule Warriors shit? That's a paddlin'.

    Add me on Switch: 7795-5541-4699
  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Hopefully Hyrule Warriors is one of the good licensed Musou games instead of one of the bad licensed Musou games. I'm hopeful.

    // Steam: VWinds // PSN: vagrant_winds //
    // Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Even if it's not great, I can still see Hyrule Warriors being a fun game.

    skeldare on
    Nintendo Console Codes
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  • McFlynnMcFlynn Registered User regular
    I have almost no interest in Hyrule Warriors but I can tell it looks like a fun game. Never played any of the dynasty games, so I have no idea what it'd actually play like though.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

    100%? They already said they are working on Zelda U. They almost showed it last e3....

    Okay but how many times has Nintendo said "we're working on x" and gone multiple years not showing it? It's not 100% at all.

    Henroid on
  • McFlynnMcFlynn Registered User regular
    October 2013:
    When asked by Mashable when we might hear more about Wii U’s original Zelda debut, Aonuma simply said, “I'll say more at E3 2014.”

  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

    100%? They already said they are working on Zelda U. They almost showed it last e3....

    Okay but how many times has Nintendo said "we're working on x" and gone multiple years not showing it? It's not 100% at all.

    We might not get more than a trailer but there will be real Zelda.

    Nintendo Console Codes
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  • AbsalonAbsalon Lands of Always WinterRegistered User regular
    They need a Zelda to show for the U at this point anyway. At the very least. We already know about Bayo 2, X, Yarn Yoshi, FExSMT, Smash and... And...

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    McFlynn wrote: »
    October 2013:
    When asked by Mashable when we might hear more about Wii U’s original Zelda debut, Aonuma simply said, “I'll say more at E3 2014.”

    That could easily become "we're showing it next year, this should give you plenty of Zelda until then!" to be honest. I'm not gonna let myself board a hype train this time.

    ...

    Edit - Yikes file size.

    Henroid on
  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    McFlynn wrote: »
    I have almost no interest in Hyrule Warriors but I can tell it looks like a fun game. Never played any of the dynasty games, so I have no idea what it'd actually play like though.

    They're a shit load of fun. And they're good games, especially the recent entries. Lots of unique characters without being clones. Alternate-history what-if versions of the historical stories if you save your generals from dying when they're supposed to. Then the Orochi games mix Dysasty and Samurai characters together, include all kinds of crazy Gods, Western cameos (Jenne D'Arc) and awesome guest characters from other video games into the plot.

    The licensed stuff has been a mixed bag though. The One Piece games? Pretty good. The Fist of the North Star game? Not so much.

    vagrant_winds on
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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Henroid wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

    100%? They already said they are working on Zelda U. They almost showed it last e3....

    Okay but how many times has Nintendo said "we're working on x" and gone multiple years not showing it? It's not 100% at all.

    Like I said, they actually admitted they were very close to showing it at e3 2013. They ultimately decided not to. There is no way they would not show it this year if the game was in a showable state last year. (honestly I suspect they just decided to skip last year so it wouldn't overshadow Smash Bros and Super Mario 3D World... not to mention Mario Kart, Wind Waker HD, Donkey Kong, etc)

    Warlock82 on
    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    McFlynn wrote: »
    I have almost no interest in Hyrule Warriors but I can tell it looks like a fun game. Never played any of the dynasty games, so I have no idea what it'd actually play like though.

    They're a shit load of fun. And they're good games, especially the recent entries. Lots of unique characters without being clones. Alternate-history what-if versions of the historical stories if you save your generals from dying when they're supposed to. Then the Orochi games mix Dysasty and Samurai characters together, include all kinds of crazy Gods, Western cameos (Jenne D'Arc) and awesome guest characters from together video games into the plot.

    The licensed stuff has been a mixed bag though. The One Piece games? Pretty good. The Fist of the North Star game? Not so much.

    Hey come on, Ken's Rage 2 wasn't that bad...

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  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Yes it was.

    // Steam: VWinds // PSN: vagrant_winds //
    // Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    If Nintendo doesn't show Zelda Wii U at this years E3 I will be very very very very very surprised.

    Hype train is loaded and ready on track five.

    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    If Nintendo doesn't show Zelda Wii U at this years E3 I will be very very very very very surprised.

    Hype train is loaded and ready on track five.

    94e.png

    Nintendo Console Codes
    Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
    PM Me if you add me!
    HAIL HYDRA
  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    What are the odds that a proper Zelda game will be announced alongside more Hyrule Warriors shit?

    100%? They already said they are working on Zelda U. They almost showed it last e3....

    Okay but how many times has Nintendo said "we're working on x" and gone multiple years not showing it? It's not 100% at all.

    Like I said, they actually admitted they were very close to showing it at e3 2013. They ultimately decided not to. There is no way they would not show it this year if the game was in a showable state last year. (honestly I suspect they just decided to skip last year so it wouldn't overshadow Smash Bros and Super Mario 3D World... not to mention Mario Kart, Wind Waker HD, Donkey Kong, etc)

    Good. I'm glad they're not showing Zelda games entirely too early as has been their habit in the past. Shows that Nintendo is learning.

    steam_sig.png
  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY_Kg0-GnlQ&amp;list=UUfAPTv1LgeEWevG8X_6PUOQ

    Haven't watched yet but yay another gamexplain :P

    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited May 2014
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Mmmm no, I disagree. There's a point where cultural context can make something right or wrong, and that line can be pretty clean cut for something like sexuality in a Zelda game.

    That witch's design is the wrong decision.

    Saying the overall design is wrong is somewhat useless.

    You can say that the proportions are wrong. You can say that the perspective is off. You can say that the colour scheme is poor. But to just look at a character and say "WRONG!" is useless.

    How could they improve this design to make it "acceptable"? Would detractors of this design be okay with it if they simply filled in the centre of the dress and hid the cleavage or would the split skirt then become a problem? Should we cover up all her womanly features?

    shia-noscale.jpg

    I saw this picture today and I like her design even more. Her costume asymmetrical (I adore asymmetry) with complex details. Utilizes a split-complementary colour scheme to great effect. Her overall design also lends to a very strong line of action (that tattoo draws the eye up and through to the same coloured feathers on her shoulders).

    It's a good character design and there's nothing "wrong" with using womanly features in your design.

    I've gone into a degree of detail as to why I think that the design is erroneous: it is sexualized to a degree that has no real precedence in the Zelda series, as produced by Nintendo. It is visually incongruent with the rest of the designs seen in the game so far, aesthetically speaking.

    Equating this design with leveraging of "womanly features" is disingenuous. I have two problems with that statement:

    1. Why are "womanly features" necessarily referring exclusively to her secondary sexual characteristics? Is the only defining characteristic of female design the aspects of the body that male design doesn't include?

    2. Why the hell would we need that anyway? Do we bemoan Agahnim's design for obscuring his "manly features" because we cannot see his lack of breast tissue, or the ratio of his hips to his waist, or the bulge of his crotch through his pants? No, of course we don't, because it never occurs to us to do so. Masculine characters are not defined by their sex: why should female characters be? Is the action of a villain not enough? Is power? Is menace? We do not ask for a more masculine design for Ghirahim, so why would we accept the same demand for a female villain?

    The problems with the design are many. It's over-designed, it's busy, it focuses too much on realistic anatomy while acting as unrealistic support for that same anatomy (you spend a lot of time and money sculpting gigantic breasts that look near to real in how they sit, but then also give the costume antigravity pwoers), and while I can admit that the linework of the costume does very good at leading the eye across the entirety of the costume, that's very nearly the only purpose of it. It's there to look sexy, and Shia is designed specifically to look sexy. Not intimidating, not strange, not powerful, not mysterious. Sexy.

    And why?

    Why is it that the character needs to wear a full-length pleated skirt that hugs the hips even while it has a slit up the side that exposes the entirety of her left leg up to the hip bone, if not to show off her lovingly rendered thigh and tattoo?

    Why render her breasts so painstakingly, only to put her in a top that shows off everything but her nipples while making her cleavage stand out even more, except to make her body the central visual effect conveyed by her design?

    Why have the design of her mask be composed almost entirely of lines that lead the eye down to her breasts, when it fails in the most important function of a mask in a design like this, which is to act as a stand-in for her face? Why, except to have the single function the mask actually succeeds in, which is to draw the eye to her breasts?

    WdxWW3H.jpg

    Why have her front profile be a figure where the head is a triangle pointing down at her breasts and crotch? Why is her entire left leg exposed, and why can we see her underwear? Why, except to elicit boners?

    And why should we accept a design, in a Zelda game, meant only to elicit boners in horny teenage boys? It detracts from her as a menace, and it reduces her to an object of desire when she should be an object of fear and loathing and awe.

    *cough* Sorry. Excuse me. Needed to get that off my chest.

    You asked how I would change the design, askign if maybe I would cover up her cleavage and thigh, etc. And, well, no, I wouldn't. I don't think a sketch-over job would be enough to save this design, because even if I move past the problem of her being designed just for the sake of being sexually alluring, it still runs into the problem of not looking anything like a magical Zelda character really should.

    I mean, Shia is a witch. She's a keeper of the Triforce, and her magic is apparently powerful enough to throw the realm into chaos. This probably takes place before Ocarina of Time, so she's almost like a proto-Ganondorf as a villain. Her design should reflect that.

    To that end, let's look at a few designs of wizards from throughout the series:
    XlBCcDV.png?1

    Agahnim is kind of the prototypical wizard in this franchise, probably even moreso than Wizzrobes. He clearly has a powerful, almost demonic frame, and his hands are enormous and clawed, but all of that, up to and including his face, is obscured by his voluminous robes. The robes, for Agahnim, are both a symbol of his power and a method by which he hides himself. It is impossible to guess if he is physically deformed (though one suspects perhaps he is), and that hiding of his features ties into hos Agahnim hides his motives. He is a liar, and a betrayer, and this is communicated instantly when you look at him. His masculinity is incidental to his design; he is an evil wizard first and foremost.

    7pyX5ge.png

    Ganondorf circa The Wind Waker is slightly different, but many of the same elements remain. Owing to the fact that we know who he is, his face is at the forefront here. His robes are a mark of his station and his power, inlaid with a design that depicts a demonic face upon his back, a symbol of his nature. The arms of his robes are long and flowing, hiding his arms, and in general his physique is obscured by it. At first glance many assumed him to be fat beneath his robes, but he quickly proves this idea wrong when, during battle, he leaps dozens of feet through the air with an avian grace and moves with incredible ease and speed. When his hands are revealed, he holds swords, and does not level his magic directly against the player (though his magic is being leveled, in unspeakable amounts, against the pressures of the environment). In Ganondorf's case, his robes act to conceal his real abilities, suggesting at what he can do rather than telling one outright.

    5UVeRX2.png?1

    The wizzrobes, fittingly enough, echo Ganondorf in almost every way. They wear the long robes of a wizard, or appear to, so that the distinction between robes and feathers is almost moot. They do not fly with their arms, or wings; instead they are held aloft by magic, and their hoods and mantles are symbols of their power. They are dressed like wizards because they are wizards, seeking to emulate the powers of their master.

    SwnZqfo.png

    Yuga is a slightly different animal, but holds to many of the same basic principles in design: flowing robes, a symbol of his magic (both in his diadem and in his staff), clothing that reveals exactly nothing about his physique. He is almost androgynous, because his body doesn't matter: he is the wizard and he brings the bad magic. His design is a function of his role and he is a function of his design: he is strange, and vain, and horrendously powerful, and in spite of the fact that he behaves in a bizarre or silly way he is immediately credible as a threat.

    GRkD3El.png?1

    Twinrova, the prototypical witches, are actually the originators of a lot of the visual cues that would become standard in later wizard characters: Ganondorf's robes in Wind Waker are basically lifted directly from theirs, all flowing and long sleeves and hidden bodies. They are the crones, fully half of their profiles taken up in their faces, in the crowns of fire and ice that are the symbol and glory of their power. You can make an argument that they are intrinsically feminine designs, but I would argue that this is not so: they are female characters, and they are definitely witches, but their gender has very little to do with our understanding of their appearances (though it has a lot to do with our understanding of their relationship with their surrogate son).

    But, of course, in the interest of full disclosure, I should also address the second form of Twinrova. This will involve an aside comparing and contrasting her with Shia, so I will have to ask you to indulge me.

    97z0aHu.png

    Twinrova's second form is aggressively feminine, with enormous breasts jutting prominently (even including a sway to Twinrova's back, just to put them out there that much more), the slimness of her waist outlined by the skintight bodice, and the width of her hips exaggerated by the volume of her trousers - which, of course, taper down to show off her calf and feet, bared to the air.

    The second form of Twinrova is something of a surprise when we see it, the reveal of another secret: that together, these two witches are the same person, and they are young and vibrant and sexy and fertile, and you can understand how it was possible for them to be the surrogates of Ganondorf. Her shoulders and upper arms are bare, suggesting power in her limbs, while retaining the flowing robe-arms that symbolize the magic she wields - to say nothing of her hair transformed to fountains of fire and ice, or her two (count 'em) wands.

    I need to lay down that I don't actually love this design. I think it has merit to it: it fits thematically with Twinrova's place in the story, and suggests certain things about the witches and their relationship to each other and the other Gerudo, but I've never cared for the way that it hypersexualizes her. I appreciate that she's another example of Ocarina of Time where Link is taken aback by female sexuality (this is the one case in the game where female sexuality is actively out to kill him) but I think there are problematic elements here that are difficult to ignore. It's not a terrible design, and it has its strengths, but I think they could have done a much better job without needing to turn the witches into an object of desire.

    That said? She is still far removed from Shia. I won't get into the nitty gritty of comparing the actual designs - anyone can do that by looking between them - but I will compare their respective roles in the story. Twinrova, as they exist in the story, are not the bombshell witch pictured above. They're the two crones who act as advisers of Ganondorf, the purveyors of bad magic and trickery. That version of Twinrova is a surprise, meant to shock the player, and she only exists for a handful of minutes before reverting to the characters' real forms. In contrast, Shia is hypersexualized by default, her body framing her as an object of desire from the word go (and even before, since she's part of the initial character design blitz), and that is the only form by which we are aware of her. Twinrova was an object of desire (debatably) for minutes; Shia will be one in every single scene in which she appears.

    And, lastly:

    Old_Woman_Artwork_(Skyward_Sword).png
    2I3sU7d.png

    Impa from Skyward Sword isn't what most people think of when they think of wizards in the Zelda series, but that's definitely what she is and both her actions and her design proves it: she fights almost solely with magic, leveraging secret knowledge which is not immediately shared with the player, and her entire mode of dress is mysterious even as it's suggestive of power. Her mask and half-cape hide very little but suggest a great deal: we know that she is keeping secrets, and the knowledge of those secrets adds extra importance to the other details of her outfit, from the embroidery to the sheikah symbols to the feathers she wears at her hip.

    And, more, her sex and her gender have absolutely nothing to do with her design. Impa could be a male character, with a different body but the same outfit, and still look perfectly natural. Her design is a function of her role, not her sex, and that is a part of what makes her stand out so well.

    Now, you want to know how I would change Shia's design?

    Scrap it. Start from the base and work your way from there.

    She should share elements of design that are the mark of wizard-y costumes throughout the series (and I left off quite a few here: Zant would be another great example): clean, simple lines for the robes, with embroidery and details for flair. The robes should lend an air of mystery, rather than enticement, so that the first reaction is either mistrust (like Agahnim) or to be intrigued (like Impa). Make her clothes, and her design, indicative of her power. Use the particular cut and styling of her hair - or the hiding of it - to suggest how we, the player, should be reacting to her (hint: it should be bad-ass). Show as little as possible, and trick the eye to suggest things that may not be there, allowing us to fill in details for ourselves, to draw our own conclusions based on her appearance.

    And, more than anything else: don't have the first line of the design docket be "the player should want to have sex with her"

    That's not too much to ask for.

    Wyborn on
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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Thank you, Wyborn, for being more eloquent tha I could.

  • Kid PresentableKid Presentable Registered User regular
    Yeah, Wyborn you're doing some serious work here. Pretty much single-handedly raising the level of discourse by putting everything I might want to say in a much more eloquent way, and without resorting to snark and anger that I'd have trouble keeping out.

  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    Seems like Hyrule Warriors is going to have a pretty cool storyline, so I am looking forward to that. The Game Explains are pretty awesome.

    In regards to Zelda Wii U, Aonuma has quotes inspiration from Skyrim and adding more exploration and items and different ways to use items, etc while still sticking with the Zelda setting. Seems interesting. Perhaps we're looking at a crafting system or a big open world to explore? Wind Waker was pretty open but mostly water.

    I expect the art style to be more like Twilight Princess than any of the other Zelda's. And I am pretty interested to see if they include Miiverse and or even NFC stuff later on.

    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    To the entirety of your post Wyborn, I say Why not?

    I posit this question: Why is it okay for a woman to dress however she wants, but that same right isn't granted to artists designing female characters?

    tumblr_n1tmh9PJkP1rtcur5o1_500.jpg

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  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I don't think you're addressing the entirety of my post, Ragnar. You're addressing about a quarter of it; most of my post is taken up with talking about common design elements for magic characters throughout the franchise, and how Koei's design for Shia is incongruous with the design of Zelda characters in general and magic characters in particular. I put a fair amount of effort into it! I'm glad other people are reading it and appreciating it, but I wrote it for you in particular, and I would be very happy if you addressed some of the points there.

    I think you're misusing that picture a little bit, because it actually illustrates my point better than it does yours. When male designers draw up female characters so that their sex is their primary defining characteristic, they're contributing to a culture of design where that's the primary statement made about femininity in general. You are telling female players that this is what femininity is, and it's a harmful contribution to the discussion in how it pigeonholes female sexuality as being an object, a function, of male sexuality. Why is Shia a woman? So we can ogle her? THat is a bad justification.

    When you design women specifically to appeal to men, you are excluding design elements that can appeal to women. @SilverWind has strong opinions on this particular subject, but she don't post much about htis kind of thing

    THis

    This is one of those cases where I wish more women posted in G&T and felt like this was a safe space to contribute their opinions on these things, because I think a woman's perspective on the female form as a commodity would contribute a lot to this discussion

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  • EnlongEnlong Registered User regular
    Well, there's a difference between a woman choosing her outfit, and a game designer choosing what they want (the player) to look at.

  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    6YYbEfS.png

    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
  • HallowedFaithHallowedFaith Call me Cloud. Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I don't think you're addressing the entirety of my post, Ragnar. You're addressing about a quarter of it; most of my post is taken up with talking about common design elements for magic characters throughout the franchise, and how Koei's design for Shia is incongruous with the design of Zelda characters in general and magic characters in particular. I put a fair amount of effort into it! I'm glad other people are reading it and appreciating it, but I wrote it for you in particular, and I would be very happy if you addressed some of the points there.

    I think you're misusing that picture a little bit, because it actually illustrates my point better than it does yours. When male designers draw up female characters so that their sex is their primary defining characteristic, they're contributing to a culture of design where that's the primary statement made about femininity in general. You are telling female players that this is what femininity is, and it's a harmful contribution to the discussion in how it pigeonholes female sexuality as being an object, a function, of male sexuality. Why is Shia a woman? So we can ogle her? THat is a bad justification.

    When you design women specifically to appeal to men, you are excluding design elements that can appeal to women. @SilverWind has strong opinions on this particular subject, but she don't post much about htis kind of thing

    THis

    This is one of those cases where I wish more women posted in G&T and felt like this was a safe space to contribute their opinions on these things, because I think a woman's perspective on the female form as a commodity would contribute a lot to this discussion

    My wife is a woman, she read all of this and felt the need to comment through me, and as much as I DO NOT WANT to expand on this topic, because I don't feel that it belongs in this thread, she is holding my snacks ransom until I post her opinion. Which is as follows:
    The outfit from the female above is only sexual if you look at her and say "I want to fuck that." That is an issue with you and the artist should not be held responsible. There is nothing wrong with the beauty of the any body being accented in game design. Games are art and it is improper for any human being to tell another human being what is OK to be displayed in their art, especially when dealing with the human figure.

    So... now I have my snacks back and the countdown to E3 is less than 17 days! Woo!

    Given the big announcement and noise that Zelda will make, I wonder how they will try and balance it with Smash Bros. I assume it will be probably one of the first things they show, right? That way they can focus on the upcoming releases for this year.

    I'm making video games. DesignBy.Cloud
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Your wife is very much entitled to that view, but I cna't agree with it on two levels: it suggests that art is immune to criticism, and that is not the case. Art is there specifically to be criticized, and there are no protections - moral or ethical - against me calling a turd a turd. Sexually exploitative art is still exploitative, and it needs to be called out on that.

    We also disagree fundamentally about whether or not there's a line when it comes to portrayals of people's bodies and how that affects the agency of characters, but I don't think that needs to be elucidated on for right now.

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  • RehabRehab Registered User regular
    I wonder how close Wii U Zelda will end up looking like this:

    zelda-hd-experience.jpg

    While I would love for the game to have that level of detail I was also a huge fan of the Skyward Sword look. There really hasn't ever been a time where Zelda has gone in a direction visually that I didn't like though.

    NNID: Rehab0
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    I anticipate there's goign to be a new visual style for this new game.

    I expect it to look drop dead gorgeous.

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  • SilverWindSilverWind Registered User regular
    Wyborn wrote: »
    I don't think you're addressing the entirety of my post, Ragnar. You're addressing about a quarter of it; most of my post is taken up with talking about common design elements for magic characters throughout the franchise, and how Koei's design for Shia is incongruous with the design of Zelda characters in general and magic characters in particular. I put a fair amount of effort into it! I'm glad other people are reading it and appreciating it, but I wrote it for you in particular, and I would be very happy if you addressed some of the points there.

    I think you're misusing that picture a little bit, because it actually illustrates my point better than it does yours. When male designers draw up female characters so that their sex is their primary defining characteristic, they're contributing to a culture of design where that's the primary statement made about femininity in general. You are telling female players that this is what femininity is, and it's a harmful contribution to the discussion in how it pigeonholes female sexuality as being an object, a function, of male sexuality. Why is Shia a woman? So we can ogle her? THat is a bad justification.

    When you design women specifically to appeal to men, you are excluding design elements that can appeal to women. @SilverWind has strong opinions on this particular subject, but she don't post much about htis kind of thing

    THis

    This is one of those cases where I wish more women posted in G&T and felt like this was a safe space to contribute their opinions on these things, because I think a woman's perspective on the female form as a commodity would contribute a lot to this discussion

    My wife is a woman, she read all of this and felt the need to comment through me, and as much as I DO NOT WANT to expand on this topic, because I don't feel that it belongs in this thread, she is holding my snacks ransom until I post her opinion. Which is as follows:
    The outfit from the female above is only sexual if you look at her and say "I want to fuck that." That is an issue with you and the artist should not be held responsible. There is nothing wrong with the beauty of the any body being accented in game design. Games are art and it is improper for any human being to tell another human being what is OK to be displayed in their art, especially when dealing with the human figure.

    So... now I have my snacks back and the countdown to E3 is less than 17 days! Woo!

    Given the big announcement and noise that Zelda will make, I wonder how they will try and balance it with Smash Bros. I assume it will be probably one of the first things they show, right? That way they can focus on the upcoming releases for this year.

    It's wife opinion hour, apparently!

    It's rather disingenuous to claim that "The outfit from the female above is only sexual if you look at her and say 'I want to fuck that.'" Surely you can identify a few points where a reasonable person may find Shia's design problematic, regardless in their interest in fucking the character.

    I do get very tired talking about this subject though, as it's a path that has been tread many times before. I would much rather celebrate in the good design choices (see: Impa).

    To those who think that there is no problem with Shia's design or do not understand what the 'big deal' is, though, please consider that these creative decisions do push some women away from video games, and from being interested in participating in video game communities such as this one here.

    signature.png
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  • RehabRehab Registered User regular
    I would be very amused if a woman designed Shia's character, but I doubt that was the case.

    What I don't doubt though is that she will probably be a really popular character in cosplayer circles.

    NNID: Rehab0
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    Rehab wrote: »
    I would be very amused if a woman designed Shia's character, but I doubt that was the case.

    What I don't doubt though is that she will probably be a really popular character in cosplayer circles.

    I think this would be interesting, though not exactly amusing

    It wouldn't be a "gotcha" moment, as it were, where you could point at it and go "See? A woman designed it, so it's fine." There's a few reasons for that: namely, even if a woman put stylus to tablet, or even if a woman was the one who dictated the design, that doesn't really remove it from the context of it being designed exclusively to appeal to men.

    Though yeah

    I also expect it will be a thing for cosplayers

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  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    Rehab wrote: »
    I would be very amused if a woman designed Shia's character, but I doubt that was the case.

    What I don't doubt though is that she will probably be a really popular character in cosplayer circles.

    I don't really understand what it matters who designed her.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    We're going to chill on the Fashion of Zelda because this thread just started and doesn't need to begin with people yelling at each other in between writing essays. That's not to say the topic is strictly verboten, but it'd be nice for chill out for a few weeks until we get some actual announcements that we can actually chew on.

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  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Oh I was right about the scarf. Cool.

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
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