To me he is, as a tragic character that I hope will pull through in the end. I understand why people wouldn't see him in that light. But I want Sansa to get better. The actress is talented, and does what she can. She needs more meat to work with in the role.
To me he is, as a tragic character that I hope will pull through in the end. I understand why people wouldn't see him in that light. But I want Sansa to get better. The actress is talented, and does what she can. She needs more meat to work with in the role.
I agree about Sansa. Perpetual victim makes it hard, no matter how much Sophie Turner does with her material.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
And to Sansa's credit, she still has enough moxie to poke holes in Ramsay's self-perceived importance/confidence.
I wonder if her prodding at that is going to push Ramsay into trying to assassinate his mother-in-law.
It would be a gruesome turn, but thinking about it . . .
If Ramsay attacks Walda but is not successful in killing her, Roose could very well put Ramsay down.
If Ramsay kills Walda, then the marriage alliance between the Boltons and the Freys is gone plus the Freys are now pissed at the Boltons. Roose might well offer up Ramsay as an act of contrition.
Ramsay not killing Walda but causing a miscarriage is the tough one to predict as Roose would still need Ramsay as an heir. I could see Roose locking up Ramsay to give him a taste of his own medicine as part of a punishment.
Any of these outcomes could benefit Sansa. Walda would be the casualty in all of this but Sansa might not shed many tears for a Frey.
So can we just give up on any sort of redemption arc for him now and just have Sansa stab him in the neck with that cork screw she stole and be done with this whole Ramsey torture sideshow?
And I think everyone who is hating on the Bronn/sand snakes scene is missing the point: Bronn can really sing.
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
The problem with Sansa isn't that she's powerless and passive, it's that her storyline is repetitive. I don't feel the same way towards her as I do towards, say, the Onion Knight, or Stannis's daughter, two characters who aren't active or powerful in the slightest, but who remain interesting because the show gives them a range of emotional beats and different things to do. Outside of her interlude with Littlefinger, Sansa's been limited to A) being hurt, being too scared of being hurt to say what she really feels, which is that whoever she's with at the moment is awful and sadistic. Sure, it might be nice to see her do a full reversal and act openly and successfully on her feelings by killing Ramsay, slaughtering the Boltons single-handedly, and re-planting the Stark flag at Winterfell, but all I really need is for the writers to give her a new fucking story.
I'm fine with what's happening with Sansa's storyline. It's hard going, and maybe not handled as well as it could be, but I feel like we're seeing steps forward, and steps back. Her strengthening isn't being undone when she stands up to someone then gets beaten back down, she's getting harder. She's learning that she's going to have to be the agent of her own escape. She needled Ramsay with talk of Roose's impending child, which was clearly designed to provoke him. This was followed by the flayed woman, to again knock her back, but she's showing a willingness to fight. I think she'll go for a jugular before the season's done.
if you wanna be mad at the showrunners or whatever, I get it, but hating a character for not suddenly having all the tools that the other characters around her have is nonsensical to me, unless you just don't actually think about what this character has been through.
and she grabbed a weapon, looked to her allies... what else do you want from mrs. locked in her room literally all the time?
related, while I'm not a person who was personally put off by the scene (beyond it being obviously brutal and difficult to watch... I mean it didn't put me off watching the show), that end of last week really kind of ended up being pointless. I guess it was a misdirect on reek? him crying says there's someone else in there but not someone strong enough to be of use yet.
but didn't 'he leaves me in here all day and hurts me every night' cover the same bases? along with the bruises and tattered clothes.
I realize you can say this about lots of action on screen, hey why didn't you just turn that into dialog explaining it later... but not all action on screen effects people like the end of last week.
anyway, at least she tried with the candle and she now has a weapon ramsay doesn't know about. can't wait til she gets to killing. I hope she doesn't stop til she's the only one left.
I quite like sansa, I'm just really bored that she's essentially had nothing to do but be sad and helpless for almost the entire show
nothing's really changed about her situation. it is a frustrating way to portray her character for years on end
I quite like Sansa, the character. I think that she has, in fact, grown and matured in interesting ways over the course of the show. I also think that people get frustrated with her for the wrong reasons: namely, they want more action out of her, when often her best and only shot at survival has been through keeping her mouth shut and playing along. I think that was certainly the case in King's Landing, and accordingly doing so makes her strong, not weak. Calling out her family as traitors and bowing to Joff et all was clearly abhorrent to her, and took great personal resolve.
However, I am pretty frustrated with how the writers have plotted out her journey. They have kept her repeatedly confined to situations where she is close to powerless (which include, of course, being Littlefinger's de facto captive; although Littlefinger said she did, I doubt she had a genuine choice about going to the Dreadfort--though I would have liked them to be a little clearer that she knew she was under duress, as opposed to just trusting the least trustworthy man in the realm). And they have put her at the mercy of sadists in a frankly grotesque way.
Which brings me to the main problem I have with her arc right now: Ramsay. I just hate his character. I hate the way Iwan Rheon chews the scenery. I hate the way that he's written to be nightmarishly and unrelentingly evil. I hate the way the show wallows in his cruelty. I hate the complete mental and physical violation of Theon. How many flayed bodies must we lovingly pan across? How many times must we see the desperate, gasping panic rising in Theon's watery eyes? And worst of all, I hate the static nature of it all; going nowhere, contributing nothing, other than an endless horrible pornography of the very worst things a person can do to another. Theon spent a season in that cellar. And now we add to that Sansa as his sex brutality object, locked in a tower for her nightly rapes.
Many other things going on in the show are stupid and/or boring, like everything in Dorne (that sand snake rude titties scene was the show at its archetypically trashiest), Sam losing his V-card because he's just such a white knight (that story's certainly never been told before), and Jorah and Tyrion's improbably wacky adventures (thank you for finally getting to the Queen, please move plot now). But even when these things strike me as boring and pointless, at least they aren't awful in the way it is when Ramsay and his girlfriend get together to hunt a girl in the forest down with dogs. So, I'm really really waiting for something to happen to change Ramsay's holding pattern of repetitive awful cruelty. If we keep checking in, regularly as clockwork, to just observe that he continues to be awful I'll be incredibly disappointed.
Anyway, it may sound like I'm a little frustrated with the show--and I am. BUT I MUST KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN KING'S LANDING.
More loras plz.
And I must see what happens when Olenna's push becomes Olenna's shove.
Gilly's been willing to sleep with him for some time, but this is the first time that he agreed to break his oath right? or am I misremembering
"you're running out of friends" - the fuck was that for?
To remind us that that point last season in the battle against the wildlings where he was a badass and you're kind of like "yeah, you know, he has a rough time being leader we've just not been given much from his perspective so we just see the crap and maybe he's not so bad" was all bobbins and he's totally just a dick.
I'm wondering if, while coming out as a dick move, it was more a warning? Alliser doesn't like Sam or Jon but he does take his oath seriously.
I suppose it could be. It felt like a threat to me, but it's possible it was advice. Thorne probably hasn't got a way to say things without sounding like he wishes your entire family-line was dead.
Alliser is a bitter hardass who's job it is to keep a tattered remnant of the Nights Watch together when it's made up almost exclusively of extremely undesirable people. It'd be difficult to be a nice guy on the wall when all but like, four, of the people there would see it as a sign of weakness to be taken advantage of.
I took Alliser's comment as advice. Not really friendly advice, but advice nevertheless. I think he wants Sam to take his little family and leave the Night's Watch (because to him they're useless dead weight who can only stir up trouble), and it looks like that would be the best option from their perspective too.
I think the high sparrow is vastly overestimating how much global power they have
they have the ability to trash the city and the already trashed riverlands maybe
I don't see how they'd gain any ground in the tyrell or lannister lands, places where mostly everyone is fed, safe, and untouched by war
if Tommen was Joffrey he'd just seal up the red keep, cut food to the city, station an army outside to keep anyone from fleeing and wait for either the sparrow's head to show up or for the city to die
I don't quite get why the Kings Guard or their army isn't just wiping the floor with the Faith Militant. Is this all part of Tywin being dead and there not being as much money and such to throw around?
I don't quite get why the Kings Guard or their army isn't just wiping the floor with the Faith Militant. Is this all part of Tywin being dead and there not being as much money and such to throw around?
Tywin would never have armed the Faith in the first place.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I don't quite get why the Kings Guard or their army isn't just wiping the floor with the Faith Militant. Is this all part of Tywin being dead and there not being as much money and such to throw around?
The only person in a position to do that is Tommen, and Cersei told him the Faith would kill the captive Tyrells if he tried.
Also their rabble will be cut to pieces by a proper force of tyrell OR lannister knights
Cutting down religious leaders seems like it would go poorly for the ruling government. I would think that the general population in this world would side with the religion.
I think the high sparrow is vastly overestimating how much global power they have
they have the ability to trash the city and the already trashed riverlands maybe
I don't see how they'd gain any ground in the tyrell or lannister lands, places where mostly everyone is fed, safe, and untouched by war
if Tommen was Joffrey he'd just seal up the red keep, cut food to the city, station an army outside to keep anyone from fleeing and wait for either the sparrow's head to show up or for the city to die
To maintain that siege, he'd have to rely on the city guard and other non-noble foot soldiers who have parents, siblings, cousins, and other relations that would be starving around them. That's a good way to inspire desertion and mutiny.
Also their rabble will be cut to pieces by a proper force of tyrell OR lannister knights
This would probably work better but Lannister knights would be commanded by Kevan who might have some objections to killing his last living son. Tyrell knights might have some reservations about attacking while the Tyrell heir is a hostage.
On paper force could work but could easily leave Tommen without the support of either family if something goes wrong which is a bad position to be in if he has to be mindful of Stannis marching on King's Landing.
Also their rabble will be cut to pieces by a proper force of tyrell OR lannister knights
Cutting down religious leaders seems like it would go poorly for the ruling government. I would think that the general population in this world would side with the religion.
The same population that tore the high septon to pieces and ate him?
Apparently wine is a sin in their religion, but until the new sparrow nobody in the entire series seemed to give a shit
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Also their rabble will be cut to pieces by a proper force of tyrell OR lannister knights
Cutting down religious leaders seems like it would go poorly for the ruling government. I would think that the general population in this world would side with the religion.
The same population that tore the high septon to pieces and ate him?
Apparently wine is a sin in their religion, but until the new sparrow nobody in the entire series seemed to give a shit
When did that happen?
And yeah, this dude seems to have won the hearts of the population. He's got quite a following.
I don't quite get why the Kings Guard or their army isn't just wiping the floor with the Faith Militant. Is this all part of Tywin being dead and there not being as much money and such to throw around?
The only person in a position to do that is Tommen, and Cersei told him the Faith would kill the captive Tyrells if he tried.
lol, i forgot about that
and now that she is a captive, her own advice is going to prevent her from being saved by tommen
Cersei is just the worst and its hilarious that every thing she did to screw over the Tyrells is screwing her over just as hard.
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To me he is, as a tragic character that I hope will pull through in the end. I understand why people wouldn't see him in that light. But I want Sansa to get better. The actress is talented, and does what she can. She needs more meat to work with in the role.
I agree about Sansa. Perpetual victim makes it hard, no matter how much Sophie Turner does with her material.
Just caught I up and I laughed too hard at this
It would be a gruesome turn, but thinking about it . . .
If Ramsay kills Walda, then the marriage alliance between the Boltons and the Freys is gone plus the Freys are now pissed at the Boltons. Roose might well offer up Ramsay as an act of contrition.
Ramsay not killing Walda but causing a miscarriage is the tough one to predict as Roose would still need Ramsay as an heir. I could see Roose locking up Ramsay to give him a taste of his own medicine as part of a punishment.
Any of these outcomes could benefit Sansa. Walda would be the casualty in all of this but Sansa might not shed many tears for a Frey.
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That didn't take long.
So can we just give up on any sort of redemption arc for him now and just have Sansa stab him in the neck with that cork screw she stole and be done with this whole Ramsey torture sideshow?
And I think everyone who is hating on the Bronn/sand snakes scene is missing the point: Bronn can really sing.
If Bronn doesn't burst out singing "Up On The Roof" at some point I'm going to be disappointing.
Gilly's been willing to sleep with him for some time, but this is the first time that he agreed to break his oath right? or am I misremembering
The best kind of of correct! Seems like Sam's thing, even.
He did go on about the oath stating it was "No wives, no children" a while back so he is aware of the technicalities.
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To remind us that that point last season in the battle against the wildlings where he was a badass and you're kind of like "yeah, you know, he has a rough time being leader we've just not been given much from his perspective so we just see the crap and maybe he's not so bad" was all bobbins and he's totally just a dick.
The Night's Watch just isn't worth a shit outside of 3 guys. He isn't one of them.
I suppose it could be. It felt like a threat to me, but it's possible it was advice. Thorne probably hasn't got a way to say things without sounding like he wishes your entire family-line was dead.
Then discover little finger betrayed her father and execute him
Hell of a way to go. I really hope he does.
they have the ability to trash the city and the already trashed riverlands maybe
I don't see how they'd gain any ground in the tyrell or lannister lands, places where mostly everyone is fed, safe, and untouched by war
if Tommen was Joffrey he'd just seal up the red keep, cut food to the city, station an army outside to keep anyone from fleeing and wait for either the sparrow's head to show up or for the city to die
Tywin would never have armed the Faith in the first place.
The only person in a position to do that is Tommen, and Cersei told him the Faith would kill the captive Tyrells if he tried.
I get the feeling if the faith did kill his wife he would paint the sept red
and I don't buy for a second the sparrow getting popular support either, kings landing largely loves their new queen
Cutting down religious leaders seems like it would go poorly for the ruling government. I would think that the general population in this world would side with the religion.
To maintain that siege, he'd have to rely on the city guard and other non-noble foot soldiers who have parents, siblings, cousins, and other relations that would be starving around them. That's a good way to inspire desertion and mutiny.
This would probably work better but Lannister knights would be commanded by Kevan who might have some objections to killing his last living son. Tyrell knights might have some reservations about attacking while the Tyrell heir is a hostage.
On paper force could work but could easily leave Tommen without the support of either family if something goes wrong which is a bad position to be in if he has to be mindful of Stannis marching on King's Landing.
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The same population that tore the high septon to pieces and ate him?
Apparently wine is a sin in their religion, but until the new sparrow nobody in the entire series seemed to give a shit
When did that happen?
And yeah, this dude seems to have won the hearts of the population. He's got quite a following.
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Exactly
which is why Olenna's threat actually caused the High Sparrow to get a little defensive.
It'll be interesting which side truly has the support of the populace
lol, i forgot about that
and now that she is a captive, her own advice is going to prevent her from being saved by tommen
Cersei is just the worst and its hilarious that every thing she did to screw over the Tyrells is screwing her over just as hard.
Whatever side feeds them.
Winter is coming.