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MOTW 8-27-14: Turns out our friends... just happen to be the worst enemies we know.

AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
Avengers #34: Cap is tired of all these smarty pants people telling him what to do.
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It's time to call in the big guns.
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I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.

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    JyrenBJyrenB St. AugustineRegistered User regular
    I've really loved these time-jump issues of Avengers. Just one weird and fun thing after another. And...
    It's very interesting how no one he's talked to has told him how to stop the incursions. Except for this recent issue, at least. But everyone Cap's run into, save for the Kangs, seems far less interested in the whole problem with the incursions and more focused on the Avengers themselves or other larger things. I still don't have an idea of how this wraps up just yet, but it's starting to feel like Cap's "Put a stop to Tony and friends" plan isn't as shortsighted as it might have initially looked.

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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    This week's Guardians is an incredible example of Brian Bendis' ability to turn four pages of content into a 22 page comic.

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    CadeCade Eppur si muove.Registered User regular
    I really like the idea of Hank getting his ass hunted.

    Especially if scott is there to smirk.

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    Lindsay LohanLindsay Lohan Registered User regular
    This week's Guardians is an incredible example of Brian Bendis' ability to turn four pages of content into a 22 page comic.

    Ugh. I've actually thought about dumping Guardians on a monthly basis and just going Rocket only because so little actually happens month to month. One of my biggest complaints getting back into comics over the past year or two is just how little happens in them now compared to when I was a kid.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    As cool as Avengers #34 was, it coming off the heals of New Avengers #23 and it rings hollow, as we have
    -The Illuminati being unable to kill a world themselves, aside from Namor. Cap has pretty much won the philosophical argument already.
    -The Illuminati unable to find an alternative solution, and giving up, and had Namor not formed the Cabal, the Earth would have been destroyed and Cap would have materialized in a dead universe, so he has already lost the intellectual argument.
    -The Illuminati has already disbanded.

    Basically, it really feels like a bunch of hullabaloo about nothing. Like Cap and Co are going to show up at Tony's house to kick his ass and Tony is going to come out and go "Nah man, we gave that shit up awhile ago. You'll want to go kick Namor's ass now." and then go right back inside. I know we're probably going to get "SUPERHERO MISUNDERSTANDING" instead so we get cool fight scenes, because Cap is being a tool right now. (Nah, don't wait for Tony to explain everything in full, just get your god damned mob to fight him. Don't ask about what is causing the incursions and how to stop them (which in turn would stop Tony) and instead just ask how to stop Tony.)

    Captain America has ideals, but jeeze is he being a dumbass about some of this stuff. He's supposed to be a pretty great tactician.

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    JyrenBJyrenB St. AugustineRegistered User regular
    As cool as Avengers #34 was, it coming off the heals of New Avengers #23 and it rings hollow, as we have
    -The Illuminati being unable to kill a world themselves, aside from Namor. Cap has pretty much won the philosophical argument already.
    -The Illuminati unable to find an alternative solution, and giving up, and had Namor not formed the Cabal, the Earth would have been destroyed and Cap would have materialized in a dead universe, so he has already lost the intellectual argument.
    -The Illuminati has already disbanded.

    Basically, it really feels like a bunch of hullabaloo about nothing. Like Cap and Co are going to show up at Tony's house to kick his ass and Tony is going to come out and go "Nah man, we gave that shit up awhile ago. You'll want to go kick Namor's ass now." and then go right back inside. I know we're probably going to get "SUPERHERO MISUNDERSTANDING" instead so we get cool fight scenes, because Cap is being a tool right now. (Nah, don't wait for Tony to explain everything in full, just get your god damned mob to fight him. Don't ask about what is causing the incursions and how to stop them (which in turn would stop Tony) and instead just ask how to stop Tony.)

    Captain America has ideals, but jeeze is he being a dumbass about some of this stuff. He's supposed to be a pretty great tactician.
    That's what makes it WORK, though. Cap doesn't know they backed down, and so you get the larger tragedy of the Illuminati now being under attack for what they couldn't do and no one believing that they didn't. This plays into that idea that they hid all of this from everyone so now they're going to pay for it, even for the things they didn't do. This is pretty classic style punishing characters for their arrogance, and it's been heavily set up from the start that something like this was coming. Cap can be a great tactician and still lead that, as this kind of action has less to do with that and more to do with solving what he sees as a fairly direct problem.

    As for the Cap stuff, I'm pretty sure that, as with most things Hickman, there's a LOT more going on here than the obvious read. Franklin gave him a ton of info in the previous issue that seems to lead a lot of this along and lay it out. But it also seemed to say that there's no point in trying to stop the incursions anyway. So Cap's going to go be Cap. Of course, there's some major conflict here on what should be done, but even Franklin didn't seem concerned there. Cap's listening to Future-Hawkeye even though Franklin told him to ignore it, because that's just what Cap does and that's seemingly an okay way for this to play out.

    Basically, this is Hickman and time travel. There is so much more at play here than the surface suggests. I don't think it's safe to judge Cap's actions as bad, especially since the one future person they've talked to that is likely the most trustworthy (Franklin), pretty much gave him permission to go do that in an indirect way.

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    OwenashiOwenashi Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    EDIT: Ooops, wrong thread. Sorry!

    Owenashi on
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    PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    JyrenB wrote: »
    As cool as Avengers #34 was, it coming off the heals of New Avengers #23 and it rings hollow, as we have
    -The Illuminati being unable to kill a world themselves, aside from Namor. Cap has pretty much won the philosophical argument already.
    -The Illuminati unable to find an alternative solution, and giving up, and had Namor not formed the Cabal, the Earth would have been destroyed and Cap would have materialized in a dead universe, so he has already lost the intellectual argument.
    -The Illuminati has already disbanded.

    Basically, it really feels like a bunch of hullabaloo about nothing. Like Cap and Co are going to show up at Tony's house to kick his ass and Tony is going to come out and go "Nah man, we gave that shit up awhile ago. You'll want to go kick Namor's ass now." and then go right back inside. I know we're probably going to get "SUPERHERO MISUNDERSTANDING" instead so we get cool fight scenes, because Cap is being a tool right now. (Nah, don't wait for Tony to explain everything in full, just get your god damned mob to fight him. Don't ask about what is causing the incursions and how to stop them (which in turn would stop Tony) and instead just ask how to stop Tony.)

    Captain America has ideals, but jeeze is he being a dumbass about some of this stuff. He's supposed to be a pretty great tactician.
    That's what makes it WORK, though. Cap doesn't know they backed down, and so you get the larger tragedy of the Illuminati now being under attack for what they couldn't do and no one believing that they didn't. This plays into that idea that they hid all of this from everyone so now they're going to pay for it, even for the things they didn't do. This is pretty classic style punishing characters for their arrogance, and it's been heavily set up from the start that something like this was coming. Cap can be a great tactician and still lead that, as this kind of action has less to do with that and more to do with solving what he sees as a fairly direct problem.

    As for the Cap stuff, I'm pretty sure that, as with most things Hickman, there's a LOT more going on here than the obvious read. Franklin gave him a ton of info in the previous issue that seems to lead a lot of this along and lay it out. But it also seemed to say that there's no point in trying to stop the incursions anyway. So Cap's going to go be Cap. Of course, there's some major conflict here on what should be done, but even Franklin didn't seem concerned there. Cap's listening to Future-Hawkeye even though Franklin told him to ignore it, because that's just what Cap does and that's seemingly an okay way for this to play out.

    Basically, this is Hickman and time travel. There is so much more at play here than the surface suggests. I don't think it's safe to judge Cap's actions as bad, especially since the one future person they've talked to that is likely the most trustworthy (Franklin), pretty much gave him permission to go do that in an indirect way.

    Yup.
    Hickman's tipped his hand that the incursions are not the main thrust of the story, since the very fact that he's revealing things about it through time travel shows that the universe does not end through them. That's even taking into account Marvel's time travel rules. There's something deeper going on, which will probably revolve around what started the incursions in the first place.

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    Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    I'd say we're retreading World War Hulk again, but I still can't help but feel that this all boils down to Hickman doing a decompressed version of Warren Ellis' Planetary.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I love Planetary and New Avengers/Avengers all but they don't really seem the same at all in terms of story

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    HeartlashHeartlash Registered User regular
    I'm sorry, but that Captain America line needs to be followed up with an obligatory:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YMPAH67f4o

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    manjimanji Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    more than meets the eye is back up to the very top of its game. current arc is a time travel mystery where the crew have to work out why everyone is dead on a future version of their ship which has just shown up.

    who's a good boy then?!
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    emotional rollercoaster ending
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    manji on
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    MetroidZoidMetroidZoid Registered User regular
    manji wrote: »
    more than meets the eye is back up to the very top of its game. current arc is a time travel mystery where the crew have to work out why everyone is dead on a future version of their ship which has just shown up.

    who's a good boy then?!
    dddf1462-da95-47f9-b406-1252202a2070_zpsc3bcd4b4.jpg

    emotional rollercoaster ending
    83471cf8-c770-4994-a687-4b05479bafab_zpsf2243005.jpg

    Not gonna cry ... I'm not gonna cry ...

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    Golden YakGolden Yak Burnished Bovine The sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered User regular
    Original Sin - Thor & Loki #4

    This series continues to be surprisingly enjoyable.
    For those who haven't been following it, the 'Secret Bomb' in Original Sin has revealed a secret about Thor that he didn't know was being kept from him - he has an older sister, who was allegedly slain by the inhabitants of the 'Tenth Realm', which Odin subsequently banished from the World Tree. Thor believes his sister is still alive in the Tenth Realm, and recruits Loki to help him find it.

    This Tenth Realm happens to be Heven, the home of Angela, Guardian of the Galaxy and greatest warrior-angel of Heven - yep, that's where they seem to be going with the whole Thor's sister thing.

    Anyway, specifically in this issue: Loki betrays Thor, gender-swaps himself back into Lady Loki, and joins the forces of Heven, agreeing to lead an invasion fleet to conquer Asgard. Mischief ensues:

    ost&l004_011.jpg
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    Lady Loki tricks the angels into breaching the barrier around Asgard, so she can get inside. Why?

    Throughout the series, interludes have shown us scenes taking place 'Somewhere Else' in the 'Prison of the Gods', where two cloaked figures play a board game - the Pale King forever besting the Dark King, ensuring he stays in the prison. Issue #4 reveals that the prison is in Asgard, and Loki finds it.

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    The Pale King is revealed to be Odin. We aren't shown the identity of the Dark King, but he calls Odin 'brother'...

    I didn't think much of Angela being brought into the Marvel U when it happened, and I've been pretty underwhelmed by what's been done with her in GotG (virtually nothing). But this series finally does something interesting with her, even if it's all been back-story stuff so far.

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    Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I love Planetary and New Avengers/Avengers all but they don't really seem the same at all in terms of story

    I've been trying not to harp on it lately because...well, I don't want to rain on everyone else's parade who is enjoying it. But it does feel to me like Hickman is trying to stretch out about one or two issues of Planetary (remember the Adirondacks? Doc Brass & co. versus the ersatz Justice League? Sherlock Holmes and the cabal?) into this multi-part Illuminati thing and...ugh. It's not something I like. I mean, we've had the whole "Illuminati bad!" crap before, hell we had the Cabal/Evil Illuminati crap before, and both times it was crap. I don't like seeing it regurgitated and chewed up again, like frickin' Infinity Crusade. The whole Captain America fish-out-of-temporal-water values dissonance thing, Namor as asshole incarnate, Reed Richards as useless, and Dr. Strange-turns-evil thing have already been done before...repeatedly. It's not new, and it's not particularly interesting this time around.

    Maybe it'll surprise me. Maybe there will be a point to the whole thing, besides dragging the characters through bizarre character twists like people railed against when it happened during Civil War. Maybe it'll even make sense. I dunno. All I know is right now, I'm looking forwards to ten years from now when we forget this ever happened.

    The Unpublishable - Original fiction blog, updates Fridays
    Sex & the Cthulhu Mythos
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    I love Planetary and New Avengers/Avengers all but they don't really seem the same at all in terms of story

    I've been trying not to harp on it lately because...well, I don't want to rain on everyone else's parade who is enjoying it. But it does feel to me like Hickman is trying to stretch out about one or two issues of Planetary (remember the Adirondacks? Doc Brass & co. versus the ersatz Justice League? Sherlock Holmes and the cabal?) into this multi-part Illuminati thing and...ugh. It's not something I like. I mean, we've had the whole "Illuminati bad!" crap before, hell we had the Cabal/Evil Illuminati crap before, and both times it was crap. I don't like seeing it regurgitated and chewed up again, like frickin' Infinity Crusade. The whole Captain America fish-out-of-temporal-water values dissonance thing, Namor as asshole incarnate, Reed Richards as useless, and Dr. Strange-turns-evil thing have already been done before...repeatedly. It's not new, and it's not particularly interesting this time around.

    Maybe it'll surprise me. Maybe there will be a point to the whole thing, besides dragging the characters through bizarre character twists like people railed against when it happened during Civil War. Maybe it'll even make sense. I dunno. All I know is right now, I'm looking forwards to ten years from now when we forget this ever happened.

    People railed against mischaracterization in civil war. I don't think there has been any of that in new avengers.

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    vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Yeah, everyone in New Avengers and Avengers is very in-character.

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    Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.
    [/edit]And again, I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble on this one. If you like it, more power to you. I just...maybe it's event fatigue, but I see it as a big recycle. Maybe it'll turn out awesome, I don't know. But as it is, I don't really want to read anymore of it.

    Bobby Derie on
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    nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.
    [/edit]And again, I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble on this one. If you like it, more power to you. I just...maybe it's event fatigue, but I see it as a big recycle. Maybe it'll turn out awesome, I don't know. But as it is, I don't really want to read anymore of it.
    I don't think you stating your opinion is bothering anybody. Certainly not me but I do disagree that building the bombs was out of character. It seemed very in character at least with the characters I was familiar with before this book.

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    AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.
    [/edit]And again, I'm not trying to burst anyone's bubble on this one. If you like it, more power to you. I just...maybe it's event fatigue, but I see it as a big recycle. Maybe it'll turn out awesome, I don't know. But as it is, I don't really want to read anymore of it.

    Reed, Tony, Namor, and Black Bolt without a doubt. T'Challa, Hank, and Strange are on the edge and frankly they were played right in the last issue.

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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.

    The alternative is that planet blowing up ANYWAY, along with the bombmakers planet AND BOTH UNIVERSES.

    Like, seriously, just based on the numbers, it's MONSTROUS for them to not consider this. It's 7 billion lives vs those same 7 billion lives + 7 billion more + trillions and trillons more + trillons and trillons more AGAIN.

    EDIT: I mean, Dr. Strange is a friggen' medical doctor. This is triage at this point: save who you can.

    Undead Scottsman on
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    Bobby DerieBobby Derie Registered User regular
    Ah, c'mon. If Jim Starlin was writing this thing, Reed Richards would be zapping Earth to the other side of the sun or the Negative Zone or something. If Grant Morrison was writing it, we'd have an Earth that was struggling with a population of 25 billion because the heroes had gotten together and moved all the people from one planet to another, or we'd have the quickest colonization of Mars you'd ever seen. Alan Moore would have taken the opportunity to show how Crisis on Infinite Earths could have been done right. I get that the inevitability of the Incursion is being played up and set out a certain way, but it's being done at the expense of the characters just to force a particular moral choice instead of exploring any of the more interesting and innovative solutions. It's soap opera dressed up as cosmic shenanigans.

    ...and part of this might just be that I'm tired of the event-driven gimmicky-ness that Marvel and DC have been pursuing. I liked the original Illuminati comic because it was novel, it was secret history and heroes actually being proactive instead of reactive for a change...but it pretty much peaked with World War Hulk, where the Illuminati receive their comeuppance for their arrogance and that should have been the end of it. Instead we get...this. And I'm tired of it. Hickman isn't a bad writer by any means, but he's not really exploring new ideas here.

    Maybe if this was a What If? storyline I'd accept it better - when you compress the basic idea down to an issue or two, the gaps in the plot and the off-characterization don't always show. But this is so decompressed, it's sort of painfully obvious that we're just playing through the old notes again.

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    PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Ah, c'mon. If Jim Starlin was writing this thing, Reed Richards would be zapping Earth to the other side of the sun or the Negative Zone or something. If Grant Morrison was writing it, we'd have an Earth that was struggling with a population of 25 billion because the heroes had gotten together and moved all the people from one planet to another, or we'd have the quickest colonization of Mars you'd ever seen. Alan Moore would have taken the opportunity to show how Crisis on Infinite Earths could have been done right. I get that the inevitability of the Incursion is being played up and set out a certain way, but it's being done at the expense of the characters just to force a particular moral choice instead of exploring any of the more interesting and innovative solutions. It's soap opera dressed up as cosmic shenanigans.

    ...and part of this might just be that I'm tired of the event-driven gimmicky-ness that Marvel and DC have been pursuing. I liked the original Illuminati comic because it was novel, it was secret history and heroes actually being proactive instead of reactive for a change...but it pretty much peaked with World War Hulk, where the Illuminati receive their comeuppance for their arrogance and that should have been the end of it. Instead we get...this. And I'm tired of it. Hickman isn't a bad writer by any means, but he's not really exploring new ideas here.

    Maybe if this was a What If? storyline I'd accept it better - when you compress the basic idea down to an issue or two, the gaps in the plot and the off-characterization don't always show. But this is so decompressed, it's sort of painfully obvious that we're just playing through the old notes again.

    This isn't an event. It's a long-running plot that crosses multiple Avengers books, which has been the status quo since at least the 1970s.

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    Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Well, in all fairness to everybody, the trouble with a longstanding plot line that a writer or company is fully committed to is that it can become entirely possible to generate a considerable run of material that is less than everyone's cup of tea. But them's the breaks.

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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    It's soap opera dressed up as cosmic shenanigans.

    Who can forget that memorable Days of Our Lives story arc where a character had to weigh the choice between killing complete strangers or letting their entire family die?

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    RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    It's soap opera dressed up as cosmic shenanigans.

    Who can forget that memorable Days of Our Lives story arc where a character had to weigh the choice between killing complete strangers or letting their entire family die?

    As long as complete strangers is broad enough to include "Identical Twin I've Never Met" and other silly things, I'm 88% sure you can find a storyline where they did do this. Daytime Soaps run new episodes daily and have to throw a ton of crap at the wall just to keep people watching.

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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited September 2014
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.

    The alternative is that planet blowing up ANYWAY, along with the bombmakers planet AND BOTH UNIVERSES.

    Like, seriously, just based on the numbers, it's MONSTROUS for them to not consider this. It's 7 billion lives vs those same 7 billion lives + 7 billion more + trillions and trillons more + trillons and trillons more AGAIN.

    EDIT: I mean, Dr. Strange is a friggen' medical doctor. This is triage at this point: save who you can.

    There is only one, and I mean one problem I have with this whole event.

    I mean, it's been fantastic, and everything has been done exceedingly in character. It's all top notch.

    But from an MCU perspective, the problem is so goddamn simple that the only reason why it isn't on the board is due to it specifically NOT being in play due to the writer's preference.

    I speak of, well, just LEAVING EARTH. There are hundreds, if not thousands of habitable planets in the MCU with a few Galactic Empires who would be happy to bring them aboard. Hell, not even thinking about a made up planet, remember the planet that they wanted to send the Hulk to? You know, the perfect peaceful utopia? That one! Go there! Or move another Earth's population there!

    For all the BLAH BLAH BLAH HIGH MINDED KINGS DUTY BOMBS talk, I find it hilarious that none of these incursions resulted in, "Oh, Earth's fucked? Whelp had a good run Strange Teleport everyone on Earth/Reed build a teleportation device/T'CHALLA I KNOW YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE SMARTASS.

    Like I understand the complications of moving an entire planets population. But you're the Illuminati. You literally exist to make these type of choices. If sacrificing the Earth means the Universe dosen't collapse, you suck it up and sacrifice the Earth with no loss of life.

    Like this is how every incursion should have went down.

    "Hey buddy, you guys got any mass teleportation device? No? We made one. Got any planets you can colonize? No, well we got one lined up for you. Do you have a better way to reliably deal with incursions? Yes? Cool, you can deal with this shit, we're gonna colonize another planet and blow up our Earth good luck duders"

    Transporter on
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    Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Really. Because we've got a group of superheroes that were planning ways to blow up planets, "just in case." Seems a bit out of character to me.

    The alternative is that planet blowing up ANYWAY, along with the bombmakers planet AND BOTH UNIVERSES.

    Like, seriously, just based on the numbers, it's MONSTROUS for them to not consider this. It's 7 billion lives vs those same 7 billion lives + 7 billion more + trillions and trillons more + trillons and trillons more AGAIN.

    EDIT: I mean, Dr. Strange is a friggen' medical doctor. This is triage at this point: save who you can.

    There is only one, and I mean one problem I have with this whole event.

    I mean, it's been fantastic, and everything has been done exceedingly in character. It's all top notch.

    But from an MCU perspective, the problem is so goddamn simple that the only reason why it isn't on the board is due to it specifically NOT being in play due to the writer's preference.

    I speak of, well, just LEAVING EARTH. There are hundreds, if not thousands of habitable planets in the MCU with a few Galactic Empires who would be happy to bring them aboard. Hell, not even thinking about a made up planet, remember the planet that they wanted to send the Hulk to? You know, the perfect peaceful utopia? That one! Go there! Or move another Earth's population there!

    For all the BLAH BLAH BLAH HIGH MINDED KINGS DUTY BOMBS talk, I find it hilarious that none of these incursions resulted in, "Oh, Earth's fucked? Whelp had a good run Strange Teleport everyone on Earth/Reed build a teleportation device/T'CHALLA I KNOW YOU ALREADY HAVE ONE SMARTASS.

    Like I understand the complications of moving an entire planets population. But you're the Illuminati. You literally exist to make these type of choices. If sacrificing the Earth means the Universe dosen't collapse, you suck it up and sacrifice the Earth with no loss of life.

    Like this is how every incursion should have went down.

    "Hey buddy, you guys got any mass teleportation device? No? We made one. Got any planets you can colonize? No, well we got one lined up for you. Do you have a better way to reliably deal with incursions? Yes? Cool, you can deal with this shit, we're gonna colonize another planet and blow up our Earth good luck duders"

    Black Swan actually mentioned alt-universe Hank McCoys often lead mass exodus's away from Earth. I forget if they mention why the Illuminati doesn't take that tract.

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    mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    Because if the Earth is destroyed by colliding with another Earth, the whole universe is destroyed.

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    UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    Because if the Earth is destroyed by colliding with another Earth, the whole universe is destroyed.

    that's why you evacuate, and then blow it up

    ...now I actually kind of want to read a story about something like this, humanity as intergalactic refugees

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    cardboard delusionscardboard delusions USAgent PSN: USAgent31Registered User regular
    Anyone pick up Inhuman 4? I can't seem to find a digital code anywhere

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