I'm not seeing it here. Maybe I'm missing something you can point me to but it seem pretty too the point?
Look up "Reserve Feats."
They aren't in the SRD, though. They came out in ... Complete Somthing-or-other?
Basically, take a feat which provided a small bonus (+1 damage on Fire spells would be something like the benefit), but also, for instance, allowed you to throw one 1d6+Int fire damage ray per round as a spell-like ability as long as you had a [Fire] spell memorized.
I dunno @tox, in 3e/Pathfinder a 1st level wizard has 3 encounter ending spells a day? I think that's enough for most. Especially, since no one has enough hit points to fight through more than 1 or 2 encounters a day at first level anyway.
I absolutely agree that in 1st, 2nd, and AD&D they would resort to throwing darts, but hey their to-hit roll was probably almost the same as the fighter's anyway, so they didn't suck at it. I know my wizard didn't anyway. Many a kobold died to my darts.
(Un?)Fortunately we didn't play deep enough into 3.5 to get to the Reserve Feats book. We'd broken the system over our knees repeatedly for years and had gotten frustrated/burned-out on it.
(Un?)Fortunately we didn't play deep enough into 3.5 to get to the Reserve Feats book. We'd broken the system over our knees repeatedly for years and had gotten frustrated/burned-out on it.
Jesus the broken awful things you guys did to me... then we did to Pete and Chris.
Yep, complete mage had the reserve feats, which was just a less streamlined version of the at-will powers they introduced in 4e and kept in 5e. Unsurprisingly, they were created to solve the problem of spellcasters running out of spells and not being useful until a rest.
Miniature's Handbook (2003)
Complete Mage (2006)
Player's Handbook 4E (2008)
Nope! And only two years before 4e came out. Curious timing.
I did not have Complete Mage because by this point I had already given up on the game as a broken mess.
So these things cost a Feat to get? Was there a level restriction? What spells were legal to be taken with this feat? Were there any other prerequisites to taking these feats?
Miniature's Handbook (2003)
Complete Mage (2006)
Player's Handbook 4E (2008)
Nope! And only two years before 4e came out. Curious timing.
I did not have Complete Mage because by this point I had already given up on the game as a broken mess.
So these things cost a Feat to get? Was there a level restriction? What spells were legal to be taken with this feat? Were there any other prerequisites to taking these feats?
Generally they worked off keyword systems. If you had a [Fire] spell memorized you could use Fiery Burst to do xd6, save for half, where x was the highest level [Fire] spell you had ready to cast. Each type of usage would take a feat to access, so one for the Fiery Burst one and another feat for the Acidy whatever one. Generally not level restricted but some had soft limits in that there weren't any good spells of the right levels to power them.
@Mikey CTS I'm going to assume that maybe the search I provided you leads to pirated copy of the book or something, and you're trying to be a good forum citizen with that advice. I edited it to not have a specific link while still maintaining the assistance.
Yeah, it's almost like they were aware of just how broken spell casters could be in 3.x and wanted to offer a way to incentivize not just winning the encounter on turn one.
I have a Burning Hands memorized. With this feat, I could then attack with 1d6 fire damage at my base attack bonus, as long as I don't cast that Burning Hands?
Yeah, it's almost like they were aware of just how broken spell casters could be in 3.x and wanted to offer a way to incentivize not just winning the encounter on turn one.
This is a bit of a stretch. If I have a Finger of Death and the option to do 3d6 (reserved Fireball) a round against an equivalent level encounter/monster, I think I'll be casting Finger of Death.
I have a Burning Hands memorized. With this feat, I could then attack with 1d6 fire damage at my base attack bonus, as long as I don't cast that Burning Hands?
Basically, yeah. And also you get a +1 to attacks(?) with fire spells.
honestly it's pretty neat, and there's a thematic approach to it that I rather like.
Here's the text from the fire version of the feat:
Fiery Burst
( Complete Mage, p. 43)
[Reserve]
You channel your magical talent into a blast of fire.
Prerequisite
Ability to cast 2nd-level spells,
Benefit
As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to create a 5-foot-radius burst of fire at a range of 30 feet. This burst deals 1d6 points of fire damage per level of the highest level fire spell you have available to cast. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting fire spells.
So yeah, it's basically what you said. Fireball would be 3d6. You just had to hold on to the memorized spell.
It was basically an early idea of what the at will spells and cantrips would be with a more specific design. They were thinking "Give them a way to give up a little bit of power for a lot more longevity." IMO just having at wills and cantrips as they are now is the much more elegant version of this, not requiring a specific feat for each damage type and allowing for much more choice while still maintaining what they were after, making it so casters didn't ever have 0 spells to cast between rests.
Yeah, it's almost like they were aware of just how broken spell casters could be in 3.x and wanted to offer a way to incentivize not just winning the encounter on turn one.
This is a bit of a stretch. If I have a Finger of Death and the option to do 3d6 (reserved Fireball) a round against an equivalent level encounter/monster, I think I'll be casting Finger of Death.
Well, yeah, but Finger of Death isn't thematically fitting with a high-level Pyromancer.
Now, meteor storm? That's a different story. Deal 9d6 every turn...until you pop that spell, then it drops down to 6d6 until you pop some other super pyro spell, then 3d6 until you finally drop fireball.
I realize that's not "how it's done" when you're building a batman caster to win encounters, but as for example. It creates an interesting dynamic within certain builds.
But you have to be able to cast 2nd level spells, which you get at 3rd level. By the you have... four to six 0-level, three or four 1st-level and one or two 2nd-level. I mean you had me for a minute then you had then that prerequisite. I can see the germination of an idea, implemented way too late to actually be effective.
I mean I thought your arguments were that this was a solution to low-level casters (presumably, levels 1 and 2) not having enough spell slots to make it through the day? Which is what at-wills are for. But it clearly doesn't do that. It opens up more options for higher-level casters.
Well, yeah. The reason it's "not done" that way is that at 17th level, spending your standard action for a chance to deal 9d6 damage to one person is hilariously terrible. Even just chucking a fireball will deal more damage.
Of course, that have more to do with anything past level 10 (and I'm being generous here) was only workable when everyone made a gentleman's agreement to not play rocket launcher tag.
The 3.5 version wasn't originally thought up to solve the problem of casters having no spells at level 1, obviously, or it wouldn't have required you to be level 3 to take it. The description from the book itself says "Reserve feats are designed to allow spellcasters to stretch their resources over a greater number of encounters. This allows the party to continue adventuring(rather than call it a day after your spell allotment is exhausted), which translates into players having more fun."
The 3.5 version was designed more so when you're 5th level you go "Normally i'd have this one fireball and be considerably weaker after i cast it, but with this feat I can cast this other thing until I think i'm in the last combat of the day and then use the fireball." The problem of it tailing off at higher level is counteracted by the additional benefit of it just giving you +1 to hit with fire spells. That's always relevant.
Sidenote: The sentence "You gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting fire spells" makes me shiver with dread at the memories of dealing with that kind of stuff now that I've enjoyed 5e.
When they were designing 4e, they seem to have thought "You know that problem we solved at 3rd level last edition, we could do that at level 1 by giving the classes spells that are unlimited in use and balanced around that in power."
And that's when they really need it anyway, because at 1st level in 5e a wizard has 2 spell slots for her level 1 spells. That's 2 rounds out of possibly 15+ rounds of combat per day that they can cast spells besides their cantrips. So without them, they'd be spending 90% of their combat rounds attacking with a weapon and not being wizardly at all, which is not what people who play a wizard want to be doing.
I'm not the right audience for that joke, because I prefer games of all editions to start above level 1. I wanted my current 5e game to start at 3rd level too when I'd have my oath, since it's thematically supposed to be part of my dude's background and what not, but my dumb friend who is DMing made us be level 1. =P
The 3.5 version wasn't originally thought up to solve the problem of casters having no spells at level 1, obviously, or it wouldn't have required you to be level 3 to take it. The description from the book itself says "Reserve feats are designed to allow spellcasters to stretch their resources over a greater number of encounters. This allows the party to continue adventuring(rather than call it a day after your spell allotment is exhausted), which translates into players having more fun."
The 3.5 version was designed more so when you're 5th level you go "Normally i'd have this one fireball and be considerably weaker after i cast it, but with this feat I can cast this other thing until I think i'm in the last combat of the day and then use the fireball." The problem of it tailing off at higher level is counteracted by the additional benefit of it just giving you +1 to hit with fire spells. That's always relevant.
Sidenote: The sentence "You gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting fire spells" makes me shiver with dread at the memories of dealing with that kind of stuff now that I've enjoyed 5e.
When they were designing 4e, they seem to have thought "You know that problem we solved at 3rd level last edition, we could do that at level 1 by giving the classes spells that are unlimited in use and balanced around that in power."
And that's when they really need it anyway, because at 1st level in 5e a wizard has 2 spell slots for her level 1 spells. That's 2 rounds out of possibly 15+ rounds of combat per day that they can cast spells besides their cantrips. So without them, they'd be spending 90% of their combat rounds attacking with a weapon and not being wizardly at all, which is not what people who play a wizard want to be doing.
Okay... so all this has been speculation, by basically everyone here. But this is like, you went up to that well and just threw your body into it. All I can say, is the 4E teamed said they looked at the 3.X Warlock when they were designing powers back in their development diaries. Whatever.
Also, how the hell does a 1st-level party survive fifteen rounds of combat with breaking? I call bullshit on your math. Assuming a fighter with 12 HP and a cleric, with monsters hitting 40% of the time (which is pretty damn generous), you'll be lucky if a party can make it through six rounds of combat in a single day. That's being generous, mind you.
At 1st level? Where did they get them? I know a few of them may get them as equipment, but only a few and they probably want to save them as proverbial "oh shit" buttons.
I don't understand half of this conversation. I don't understand Mikey CTS saying Advantage is swingy, us talking about the maths for a bit to show it isn't, and him just changing his opinion to 'sucks' without acknowledging that response.
I don't understand why cantrips are supposed to be impressive, since 4e had at will spells.
And I really don't understand why you'd want to start all your games at higher level ie 3rd, but be happy with the game, and earlier praise the lethality etc.
If a game makes you want to skip the early parts, those early parts are BAD.
In 4e, 13A, DW and countless other games you are a heroic hunka hunka burnin' love from level 1, because that's fun.
(Dis)Advantage is swingy not in a randomness way, but in the massive way it "swings" your chance of success or failure. I believe that's the way he meant it. I dispise the mechanic personally though, so I am probably not the person to ask.
I tell you, the one thing I certainly never expected to see complained about was the advantage system in 5e. Everyone I have talked to in person is in love with it, myself included. I'm not saying you aren't allowed to dislike it, it's just very surprising to me.
My only annoyance with the advantage system is how it is negated once you have both of any source.
It's not like it's complicated to say "more advantage = advantage" than "more advantage = nothing" and I bet it will be a common house rule.
What's the point of the system of by RAW it will get negated so easily at higher levels? It is supposed to be ubiquitous right? That kinda defeats itself, where you have all this advantage and disadvantage but actually just roll your damn d20.
At 1st level? Where did they get them? I know a few of them may get them as equipment, but only a few and they probably want to save them as proverbial "oh shit" buttons.
They're cheap and available on the equipment list.
Maybe they don't have them in their Baby's First Adventure, but as soon as you get back to town? I mean, you've read the descriptions from basically anyone running it (especially in a store setting) about how everyone is loaded down with them?
Posts
Look up "Reserve Feats."
They aren't in the SRD, though. They came out in ... Complete Somthing-or-other?
Basically, take a feat which provided a small bonus (+1 damage on Fire spells would be something like the benefit), but also, for instance, allowed you to throw one 1d6+Int fire damage ray per round as a spell-like ability as long as you had a [Fire] spell memorized.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Darts?
Powergamer.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
I believe this is called changing the goalposts.
Jesus the broken awful things you guys did to me... then we did to Pete and Chris.
... Are we bad people?
Complete Mage.
If you want to talk about Goal posts go look for where I first bring up the concept of at wills in 3.x and mention it was in late 3.x.
Edit: Here, I'll save you the effort.
Or are you saying those aren't really at-wills?
Because that would be No True Scotsman, not Moving the Goalposts.
Complete Mage (2006)
Player's Handbook 4E (2008)
Nope! And only two years before 4e came out. Curious timing.
I did not have Complete Mage because by this point I had already given up on the game as a broken mess.
So these things cost a Feat to get? Was there a level restriction? What spells were legal to be taken with this feat? Were there any other prerequisites to taking these feats?
Generally they worked off keyword systems. If you had a [Fire] spell memorized you could use Fiery Burst to do xd6, save for half, where x was the highest level [Fire] spell you had ready to cast. Each type of usage would take a feat to access, so one for the Fiery Burst one and another feat for the Acidy whatever one. Generally not level restricted but some had soft limits in that there weren't any good spells of the right levels to power them.
I am willing to trust DevoutlyApathetic. That... seems oddly restrictive.
I have a Burning Hands memorized. With this feat, I could then attack with 1d6 fire damage at my base attack bonus, as long as I don't cast that Burning Hands?
This is a bit of a stretch. If I have a Finger of Death and the option to do 3d6 (reserved Fireball) a round against an equivalent level encounter/monster, I think I'll be casting Finger of Death.
Basically, yeah. And also you get a +1 to attacks(?) with fire spells.
honestly it's pretty neat, and there's a thematic approach to it that I rather like.
So yeah, it's basically what you said. Fireball would be 3d6. You just had to hold on to the memorized spell.
It was basically an early idea of what the at will spells and cantrips would be with a more specific design. They were thinking "Give them a way to give up a little bit of power for a lot more longevity." IMO just having at wills and cantrips as they are now is the much more elegant version of this, not requiring a specific feat for each damage type and allowing for much more choice while still maintaining what they were after, making it so casters didn't ever have 0 spells to cast between rests.
Well, yeah, but Finger of Death isn't thematically fitting with a high-level Pyromancer.
Now, meteor storm? That's a different story. Deal 9d6 every turn...until you pop that spell, then it drops down to 6d6 until you pop some other super pyro spell, then 3d6 until you finally drop fireball.
I realize that's not "how it's done" when you're building a batman caster to win encounters, but as for example. It creates an interesting dynamic within certain builds.
But you have to be able to cast 2nd level spells, which you get at 3rd level. By the you have... four to six 0-level, three or four 1st-level and one or two 2nd-level. I mean you had me for a minute then you had then that prerequisite. I can see the germination of an idea, implemented way too late to actually be effective.
I mean I thought your arguments were that this was a solution to low-level casters (presumably, levels 1 and 2) not having enough spell slots to make it through the day? Which is what at-wills are for. But it clearly doesn't do that. It opens up more options for higher-level casters.
Of course, that have more to do with anything past level 10 (and I'm being generous here) was only workable when everyone made a gentleman's agreement to not play rocket launcher tag.
Twitch Stream
The 3.5 version was designed more so when you're 5th level you go "Normally i'd have this one fireball and be considerably weaker after i cast it, but with this feat I can cast this other thing until I think i'm in the last combat of the day and then use the fireball." The problem of it tailing off at higher level is counteracted by the additional benefit of it just giving you +1 to hit with fire spells. That's always relevant.
Sidenote: The sentence "You gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting fire spells" makes me shiver with dread at the memories of dealing with that kind of stuff now that I've enjoyed 5e.
When they were designing 4e, they seem to have thought "You know that problem we solved at 3rd level last edition, we could do that at level 1 by giving the classes spells that are unlimited in use and balanced around that in power."
And that's when they really need it anyway, because at 1st level in 5e a wizard has 2 spell slots for her level 1 spells. That's 2 rounds out of possibly 15+ rounds of combat per day that they can cast spells besides their cantrips. So without them, they'd be spending 90% of their combat rounds attacking with a weapon and not being wizardly at all, which is not what people who play a wizard want to be doing.
... plus everyone started 3.XE games at level 3, anyway ...
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Okay... so all this has been speculation, by basically everyone here. But this is like, you went up to that well and just threw your body into it. All I can say, is the 4E teamed said they looked at the 3.X Warlock when they were designing powers back in their development diaries. Whatever.
Also, how the hell does a 1st-level party survive fifteen rounds of combat with breaking? I call bullshit on your math. Assuming a fighter with 12 HP and a cleric, with monsters hitting 40% of the time (which is pretty damn generous), you'll be lucky if a party can make it through six rounds of combat in a single day. That's being generous, mind you.
Also, 40% hit rate for monsters at low levels smells ... high ... to me for a 3E game.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
In which case, just potions.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
I don't understand why cantrips are supposed to be impressive, since 4e had at will spells.
And I really don't understand why you'd want to start all your games at higher level ie 3rd, but be happy with the game, and earlier praise the lethality etc.
If a game makes you want to skip the early parts, those early parts are BAD.
In 4e, 13A, DW and countless other games you are a heroic hunka hunka burnin' love from level 1, because that's fun.
I don't understand this conversation at all.
Everything else you and I are eye to eye on.
You didn't read all the posts, then.
It's not like it's complicated to say "more advantage = advantage" than "more advantage = nothing" and I bet it will be a common house rule.
What's the point of the system of by RAW it will get negated so easily at higher levels? It is supposed to be ubiquitous right? That kinda defeats itself, where you have all this advantage and disadvantage but actually just roll your damn d20.
They're cheap and available on the equipment list.
Maybe they don't have them in their Baby's First Adventure, but as soon as you get back to town? I mean, you've read the descriptions from basically anyone running it (especially in a store setting) about how everyone is loaded down with them?
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
the dmg table of con tents was released. what do you guys think?