Let's punch people in the [Character Action Game] thread!

Radius

have you tried not being insufferably patronizing

Morninglord

i wasn't? i totally respect that it is like a critical hit system on first playthrough.
i fully empathise with and understand it.
i just hadn't thought of it before
and then i made a joke.
showing that i understood it

Morninglord

seriously anytime i mention the word skill you guys freak the fuck out and think im looking down on you

that is not happening

i have studied skill acquisition, in my degree. i have an academic understanding of skill acquisition. i have a completely egalitarian belief in the ability of any person gaining a skill if they want to. any person.
i hold no importance in any skill i have gained. its nothing but a function of time invested. in the case of computer games that's nothing special and is in fact a sign of obsession, since i have zero natural talent. in otherwords its a character flaw.

in this case when i said skill i meant it as a feature of the games design. in other words, any person at all can gain this skill with time invested. i was not talking about myself because im not all that consistent with it. i can't even do it anymore. i've forgotten completely. last time i played i sucked balls.

Bluedude152

You have a real bad condesending tone dude

Even if you are joking its just constant "Ah, look how much more I know about these games than you"

Radius

I feel like a degree that specialized would've covered basic pattern recognition

Javen

Morninglord wrote: »

Oh.
I guess that's kind of like a critical hit.
Only not since its all skill based and you can become completely consistent with it so that it isn't even a concern.
But whateva.

Oh hey in that case dante's distortion is also a critical hit system.

Critical hit systems for everyone!

But that's exactly what it is. Lots of other games use the same system of timed inputs producing critical or otherwise augmented attacks (FF8, SMRPG). Randomness isn't a pre-requisite for something being a critical hit. My issue with its application in DMC4, is that the number of frames where the timing is available is different for each unique weapon swing, and that it also impacts the speed of subsequent attacks. It's an inconsistent system, that still requires precision.

Javen

And yes I've seen many youtube videos of people who have played enough to utilize the system

It being possible, doesn't make it a good system.

Morninglord

im just freewheeling. stuff just pops into my head and i say it. there's no intent. is it the mere fact of saying stuff at all or is it the way im structuring it or what?
i would like to stop doing it. i don't want people to react this way its really distressing.

Morninglord

Javen wrote: »

Morninglord wrote: »

Oh.
I guess that's kind of like a critical hit.
Only not since its all skill based and you can become completely consistent with it so that it isn't even a concern.
But whateva.

Oh hey in that case dante's distortion is also a critical hit system.

Critical hit systems for everyone!

But that's exactly what it is. Lots of other games use the same system of timed inputs producing critical or otherwise augmented attacks (FF8, SMRPG). Randomness isn't a pre-requisite for something being a critical hit. My issue with its application in DMC4, is that the number of frames where the timing is available is different for each unique weapon swing, and that it also impacts the speed of subsequent attacks. It's an inconsistent system, that still requires precision.

i see what you mean. i hadn't really thought of it that way. i always just thought of critical as random chance.
the changing the speed is true, but you can get used to it since the change of speed is consistent, and it doesn't change from 3 stars down to no stars. so, for example, if you max act, you've got a buffer period even if you screw up one or two, so you should finish your whole combo. the buffer period will let you practice as well, max act and then you've got at least three swings to learn the faster speed.
the skills where he does more attacks don't have different timing for the last swing. like forward and attack, he will do three revolutions, but the timing for the last revolution, the point where you press it, is the same.
there are some that are odd like the launch.
it varies, but more like a decision tree.

Morninglord

Radius wrote: »

I feel like a degree that specialized would've covered basic pattern recognition

i have a learning disability and benefit greatly from feedback. im willing to learn and honestly look back and think about it. its difficult for me to see things like this for myself because what im thinking about is not what other people see, so i think its fine but they see a meaning that hadn't occurred to me.
just tell me if i said something stupid and ill apologise and try not to do it again.

Radius

In that case, what you said to Javen made it sound like he wasn't good at the game, and then further made light of it by comparing it to another system in the game that isn't actually a critical hit system.

If there is any humor to be found there, it is interpreted as you thinking Javen is so bad at the game that he can't recognize how system mechanics work on a fundamental level, which only comes off as haughty and mean-spirited.

Morninglord

I see. Thankyou.
I thought about it and understood what he meant by critical hit, so I thought about it with that assumption and because the motorcycle sword gives extra effects like stun and damage then logically it was equivalent to distortion. Distortions timing is also dependent on when you press the button (theres a slight frame delay between button press and the distortion effect happening) and changes for each move. (It's just before instead of after the hit) The timing also changes based on whether you are going into or out of devil trigger.
So it varies in a similar way.

@Javen I apologise for that post. I came off like a heel.

Javen

Morninglord wrote: »

Radius wrote: »

I feel like a degree that specialized would've covered basic pattern recognition

i have a learning disability and benefit greatly from feedback. im willing to learn and honestly look back and think about it. its difficult for me to see things like this for myself because what im thinking about is not what other people see, so i think its fine but they see a meaning that hadn't occurred to me.
just tell me if i said something stupid and ill apologise and try not to do it again.

I have a pretty thick skin, so you don't have to worry about offending me. But I do tend to actively avoid conversing with you in this thread, just because I know our outlooks over these games will never mesh very well at all. But that's not really on you, or something you should spend a lot of time worrying about. Just two different people, is all.

I understand that your playstyle tends to get you really deep into these games and their systems, which is actually really cool. I've always been envious of people who can pull off triple S ranks and earn top leaderboard things. But in your conversations about them, you can come off as kind of a braggart. You also tend to give off the vibe that you know more than other people (which, given how good you are at most of them, may be true!) but don't treat every single interaction as a teaching moment. The structure of your posts also tends to give off the feeling that the person you're talking to doesn't really know much about the subject matter.

If I had to sum it up: when it comes to CAGs, you have a tendency to mansplain a lot.

I understand that's not your intent, so don't feel like you owe me an apology. But as someone who is also a huge fan of the genre, I would like to converse about them with you on occasion, without necessarily feeling like I'm going to get an object lesson that I didn't ask for.

Morninglord

I get ya. I go into "lecture mode". I do kind of treat any opportunity to talk about a game as an opportunity to explain more about it. It's rarely actually aimed at the person as much as in general. I want other people to know as much as I do. There's no point hoarding all this knowledge and not sharing it as widely as possible.
I totally get how annoying that is. I should have thought about that before now.
I love talking about games with people who love the genre. It's sad to me to think that my way of posting about them is getting in the way. I'll try to throttle it back.

Morninglord

but I'm a creature of habit so if i start doing it again tell me to shut up

i have been trained to shut up on command whenever i start excessively explaining something to my girlfriend she doesn't really have much interest in.

i will be all yes sah shutting up now sah

Dragkonias

So...I have a question because math is hard.

If a game goes from 30fps to 60fps doesn't that mean that you have more time to react because you have more visible frames?

Wyborn

Do you mean variable framerate or like one version of a game locked at 30 and the other at 60?

You don't have more time, so to speak, since your reaction time is only just so quick. I think?

Morninglord can probably answer that better than I can

Dragkonias

Oh...I was just thinking about the DmC definitive edition.

Original was locked at 30 this one is at 60...and I'm noticing that my timing is off a bit.

Stilts

Dragkonias wrote: »

So...I have a question because math is hard.

If a game goes from 30fps to 60fps doesn't that mean that you have more time to react because you have more visible frames?

So I'm coming at this from a fighting game perspective, but one of the big reasons why fighting games (and, presumably, CAGs with a lot of combat depth) like to run at 60 fps is less because of reaction times and more because of animation times.

All attacks have windup (before the attack "hits"), active (when the attack has a hurtbox) and recovery (no more hurtbox but you can't do anything else yet) frames. Some attacks also have invincibility frames. The basic idea is that the more frames per second you have to work with, the more you can tweak those four types of frames to create a balanced experience.

For example, I'll pull a number out of my ass and say that Ryu's light punch has a 3 recovery frames in a 60 fps environment (this is almost certainly wrong and only used for illustrative purposes). If you were to change that to 30 frames per second, you'd either have to round up or down, since you can't have 1 and half frames. And that might not seem like a big deal, but a difference of a single frame can be really important in determining what your next move should be. Less so in CAGs, since there's not really a competitive component to them besides leaderboards, but frames can still be pretty important for them.

turtleant

BrocksMullet wrote: »

Anyone ever play El Shaddai: Ascension of The Subtite? Local shop has 2(!) copies.

@BrocksMullet I know this post is old but El Shaddai is pretty good.

If you only want a really deep CAG like DMC or MGS Rising it's not going to do it for you. The combat isn't nearly that deep, but it is fun. You have 3 different weapons (a balanced one, a fast and ranged one, and a slow and powerful one) that you switch between by stealing them from enemies. Each of them has a few different combos, and you have a super mode you can trigger to really lay down the hurt. Each weapon also gives you a different defensive and mobility move.

The game has platforming, both 2d and 3d, but it's not super hard or frustrating. Definitely nothing harder than what you would find in a DMC game, and it controls better than the platforming in those games do.

El Shaddai is a spectacle game first and foremost. Its big draw is exploring these strange, abstract locations and taking in the weird, off kilter story. As an example, your guide/save point guy is Lucifel, i.e. Lucifer before he got all pissy with god, who wears designer jeans and talks to god on a cell phone.

It's a weird fucking game.

If you can get it for $40 or less I'd totally give it a shot!

Morninglord

We can't see 1 frame.
But as we become better at something, we end up using those frames as part of our judgements, below our conscious awareness. Our learnt reactions incorporate earlier and earlier frames of movements. Like you can't react to a 15 frame move. Making it 14 frame changes nothing. But you can react to a 25 frame move, and losing just 1 frame makes it exponentially harder.
For games where timing is really important, adding a frame can be similarly disorienting, for basically the opposite reason. We react too quickly. Even though the actual by the stopwatch timing might not have changed, the visual changing will screw up your muscle memory.
So yes, it can mess up your timing.
You'll just have to relearn it. It shouldn't take long.

Dragkonias

Yeah. That's been my issue.

I've been evading way too fast.

Morninglord

Yep that's normal. At least its not like Dark Souls 2. Some enemy attacks are based on the frame rate.
So they became double speed.

Speed Racer

you would think they would just make every frame count for 2 when bumping it up, so that even though the game runs at 60 the characters effectively move at 30

Peewi

Speed Racer wrote: »

you would think they would just make every frame count for 2 when bumping it up, so that even though the game runs at 60 the characters effectively move at 30

I could see that causing problems if the framerate isn't 100% rock solid.

Morninglord

you would think that yes
alas it is not so in dark souls 2.

Speed Racer

Peewi wrote: »

Speed Racer wrote: »

you would think they would just make every frame count for 2 when bumping it up, so that even though the game runs at 60 the characters effectively move at 30

I could see that causing problems if the framerate isn't 100% rock solid.

yeah that's a fair point

Morninglord

yeah its a pc problem, since a lot of them are going to run it at 60 no matter what. it was likely designed that way cos the consoles frequently chug down, so reducing the frame rate slows down the attack. gives people a bit of breathing room.

Peewi

So Vergil isn't the only new character in DMC4SE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwEGjnl3aiU

Dragkonias

Oooohhhh...nice.

Transporter

Peewi wrote: »

So Vergil isn't the only new character in DMC4SE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwEGjnl3aiU

Hmm Trish and Lady playable and Vergil with a Vergil storyline hmm yes I see yess YESSS.

Radius

playable Vergil and Lady?

I mean, I kinda hate what they did to her design between 3 and 4, but she still has a cool weapon and I like her as a character.

Morninglord

omgomgomgomg

*hyperventilates*

Rainfall

Morninglord wrote: »

omgomgomgomg

*hyperventilates*

You and me both. Three new characters for DMC4 makes me so hype. That's basically a whole new game worth of system Mastery to play with.

Morninglord

i still play bloody palace to this day
i don't finish all of it, i just play a bunch of levels and then stop
i haven't really played it for a few years, but in the last couple of months for no real reason ive been picking it up and playing dante a bit after watching this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8hx5licmrM
and realising ive been doing the weakass version of it all along and that the most powerful version is done by starting it in human form.
i always used to distort the first hit and turn it off to distort the last hit
but the first hit isn't much damage, so distorting it doesn't matter much, the second hit in devil trigger doesn't add that much, and distortion to human form on the last hit does a lot less damage than distortion into devil trigger
the last hit is where all the damage is

that max damage version is like woah. i hit it a couple of times on berial and once on the toad, and it was over

i wonder what mechanic vergil is going to get with his devil trigger

im also really curious how lady would work
would she be basically a gunslinger? what about her basic combo attack? pistols? i could go for that
gunkata lady

Rainfall

Hahahahahaha what.

My god now I'm even more excited for the remaster. I busted the disc drive on my 360 after replaying 4 last summer so this will be... very good.

Morninglord

for those on pc there's a mod out now that will give you debug mode, which allows you to skip levels in blood palace, and set enemies to no damage or no death etc for punching bag dummies to learn things, etc etc
and yourself of course
also you can turn off the timer
you can do a lot of stuff with it
you can turn any bloody palace level into a training mode

Reynolds

Alright, I picked up Revengeance during a sale. It might be one of the most unfun and frustrating games I've ever played. I really dislike it. Why is it so bad?

I am obviously missing something here. I have no idea what the game wants from me. It tries to tell me I'm an unstoppable cyborg badass. But then surrounds you with guys with guns and rocket launchers, with no way to dodge ranged attacks and no ranged attacks of your own. The very first group of bad guys in the first real level, after the prologue thing, stunlocked me and gangbanged poor Raiden to death.

I had to fight a helicopter. With no standard ranged weapon, no double jump, and no other way to get up that high to attack. There are raised platforms scattered about, but as soon as you get close it just moves. Because it's a helicopter.

Why can grunts counter attack every attack I make? Why does the slomo blade mode thing do nothing? I wailed on a guy in this for like ten seconds straight, and he did not get slashed at all, just wobbled in place for a bit then was fine.

Why, when the game decides to let me use the block/parry thing instead of just doing an attack in a random direction LIKE THE OTHER NINETY PERCENT OF THE TIME does it then push the enemy back? As in, outside of sword range? So that the followup blade mode attack whiffs and you just stand there slashing at the air? Why is the parry button the same as attack? Why does it not have its own button? The light attack does not double as a parry...it has a completely different animation...why is it the same button? You'll be hitting this button 90% of the time, because it is both attack and defend, yet there is no way to make the game know which you want.

Why does it seem to have stealth elements when there is no way to be stealthy? There's no crouch button or way to walk slow or do stealth kills, as far as I've seen.

Speed Racer

ABC- Always Be Countering

bait the enemy into attacking, then push light attack and push the stick in the direction of the enemy attacking

for most basic enemies, this will open them up to being attacked

if you time it perfectly, you'll do a parry counter, which will both defend you, and severely stun the enemy. For bigger enemies this will usually put them into a state where you can hit a QTE and instant-kill them

When an enemy's open to attack, use your blade mode and slice through the red square you see on the enemy. Then you can press B/Circle and rip out the enemy's spine, eat it, and instantly regain all health and blade mode energy

helicopter fights, and fights against pretty much any aerial enemy, are kind of bullshit. Fortunately they're few and far between. You should have picked up some rocket launchers on the way to that fight, they'll be a big help in taking it down quickly. You can equip them with the D-Pad and shoot them with LB/R1

the parry and attack functions are assigned to the same button as a matter of flavor, to make the physical inputs of the game blend with the mechanics and the aesthetics. Raiden is an offensive character. It's not a block. You're not defending. You're attacking their attack. You're killing their attack, and then you're killing them.

As soon as you possibly can, buy the Offensive Defensive ability. It is your dodge move. It's a weak dodge. Very few i-frames, and more cooldown than you'd want. But it will save you in a pinch.

rocket launcher dudes are kind of assholes. Before you engage in combat, survey the area and track the rocket launcher dudes on the periphery. Take them out first. Gunfire will largely be trivial to you on lower difficulties, but to be safe, always Ninja Run when you're not actively attacking/parrying

There is a stealth kill. When in Caution Mode, walk up behind an enemy or position yourself on a level above them, and press the B button.

Morninglord

Reynolds wrote: »

Alright, I picked up Revengeance during a sale. It might be one of the most unfun and frustrating games I've ever played. I really dislike it. Why is it so bad?

I am obviously missing something here. I have no idea what the game wants from me. It tries to tell me I'm an unstoppable cyborg badass. But then surrounds you with guys with guns and rocket launchers, with no way to dodge ranged attacks and no ranged attacks of your own. The very first group of bad guys in the first real level, after the prologue thing, stunlocked me and gangbanged poor Raiden to death.

Are you holding RB or R1 to Ninja Run? Or R2, RT if you have it set up that way. In ninja run you block all ranged gunfire and ninja running sideways will avoid rockets. You can even slice them up in blade mode if you want to be daring. The slashes you do with light attack in ninja run can also cut rockets out of the air. You can actually use this to cut up helicopter missile fire while also simultaneously blocking their machine guns, rendering you invulnerable to everything but their diving charge attack.
You can also use the offensive defense move to go straight through them, it has a short period of invulnerability.

I had to fight a helicopter. With no standard ranged weapon, no double jump, and no other way to get up that high to attack. There are raised platforms scattered about, but as soon as you get close it just moves. Because it's a helicopter.

There's stingers missile launchers located around that area. Equip them through the dpad menu. After you do enough damage it will become stunned and lower to the ground. Later you get ranged weapons and moves that can take you straight to the helicopter, so you wont need to use those items unless you want to.

Why can grunts counter attack every attack I make? Why does the slomo blade mode thing do nothing? I wailed on a guy in this for like ten seconds straight, and he did not get slashed at all, just wobbled in place for a bit then was fine.

Had you run out of slo mo? You can only instant kill when the bar is full and blue. If it is yellow, you can't instantly cut anymore. It'll get refreshed automatically if you do a counter attack that results in a big japanese kanji symbol appearing on the screen. Or various other moves that result in that symbol. Later you can buy and find fuel cell upgrades that will extend the length of time you can stay in the blue bar, so you can turn it off and on and still instantly cut.
The main way to refill your bar is by cutting the red squares on enemies and pressing the prompt to grab their electrolytes. This will refill both your health and slo mo bar to max.

Why, when the game decides to let me use the block/parry thing instead of just doing an attack in a random direction LIKE THE OTHER NINETY PERCENT OF THE TIME does it then push the enemy back? As in, outside of sword range? So that the followup blade mode attack whiffs and you just stand there slashing at the air? Why is the parry button the same as attack? Why does it not have its own button? The light attack does not double as a parry...it has a completely different animation...why is it the same button? You'll be hitting this button 90% of the time, because it is both attack and defend, yet there is no way to make the game know which you want.

If you are being attacked your block will come out automatically, even in the middle of an attack. If you are doing a light attack you can block straight out of it. A thing you are probably doing is not pressing towards the center of mass of the enemy. Don't attack the limb coming at you, attack their middle. Another is that block is not a button, it is a combination. It is "towards the enemy + attack". Both together count as a block/parry. If you are holding towards the enemy constantly and hitting the button, you cannot block because you cannot do the "press towards the enemy" if you are already holding towards them. Instead of holding towards them, get into a habit of rhythmically tapping it towards them while pressing the attack button simultaneously. This will light attack when you don't need to block, and block when you are being attacked. Later when you get used to it you can learn the precise timing needed to parry on command, but don't worry about that right now.
Your standard light slash attack (square or x) will travel in and auto home. You aren't really supposed to normal block much, parry is the better use, and it works on most enemies. There are a few that can get out of it, but they have different methods that can be used to take them down quickly.
If you aren't holding in a direction he randomly attacks the closest enemy. Hitting enemies knocks them back, so he'll jump around a bit if enemies are crowding him.
The rhythmic tapping method and choosing your targets is your best bet. You can also do standard action game style combos with the other button and/or light attack in combination, you can find a listing of them in the start menu. You'll have to choose your blocks carefully in the middle of these because you can't do the rhythmic tapping method with the heavy attack button.
You also get special moves but don't worry about those too much for now because you might not have bought any yet.
A couple of the special moves don't let you block out of them, but those particular moves are pretty situational moves anyway so its not a big thing to worry about. If you buy a move, try it, and it wont let you block, it's no big loss if you avoid it. They come pretty late so don't worry about getting them early.
By the lightning kick move, I forget its exact name. Looks like a flying kick icon. It'll let you rocket kick flying enemies.

Why does it seem to have stealth elements when there is no way to be stealthy? There's no crouch button or way to walk slow or do stealth kills, as far as I've seen.

If you get behind enemies out of combat you can press a button prompt to do an instant kill that will refill your blade mode bar and let you slice them up, hit the red square to fully refill it. There are very few enemies you cannot do this with. Certain enemies will detect the ninja run, but not the walk. Generally speaking the enemies have fairly narrow vision cones, and the areas where you can stealth are set up so you can wait out of line of sight then sprint up behind them in ninja run and do the kill. You can also trigger it from above enemies. Other enemies do not see this kill unless it is directly in their field of view. It sounds noisy and unstealthy, but it isn't.

Try running through this video, if it is the one I think it is it's a pretty good guide. I can't watch it right now I have no sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7IlIUKP64o