There’s a been a little criticism of villains on the show foreshadowing really heavily what they’ll become right out of the gate. Does your Dent have any obvious Two Face qualities? Like is there any coin flipping involved?
Oh yeah. It’s a facet of the television world. It’s important to speak to a larger audience and to speak to have these kind of [touchstones] because people have their minds in so many different shows. Definitely from the first scene you’ll see me flipping a coin.
There’s a been a little criticism of villains on the show foreshadowing really heavily what they’ll become right out of the gate. Does your Dent have any obvious Two Face qualities? Like is there any coin flipping involved?
Oh yeah. It’s a facet of the television world. It’s important to speak to a larger audience and to speak to have these kind of [touchstones] because people have their minds in so many different shows. Definitely from the first scene you’ll see me flipping a coin.
Yeah, they showed it in the preview last week during Sleepy Hollow. Thanks for the subtlety Gotham.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
I'll be waiting for someone to call Harvey "two-faced" or something like this lol.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
This week in adventures in bad screenwriting:
-Why is Selina so bizarrely mercurial? Who wouldn't be happy to get to stay in a mansion? Is she lying to Bruce or herself about her mother? Why bother with the "Have you ever kissed a girl?" conversation when it would have been sweeter to just bring it up naturally in the food fight scene? How hard would it have been to shoot that scene to emphasize Alfred seeing Bruce happy for the first time since his parents died? And why the construction of the bookend scenes as "Gordon is told about a problem, does nothing, the problem solves itself" and "Gordon happens to check in" instead of Alfred deliberately choosing to call him? Is it because every character on the show has to be utterly passive?
-"Detectives, do you like video games? I love video games. They're so challenging. I found this evidence, here."
"What... what does this evidence have to do with video games, Ed?"
"I like video games."
"Did your mother ever have any children that lived, Ed?"
-"You, Russian thug that I hired to rob my own mob boss who would kill me if he knew. Let's have a conversation in the middle of the street so that I can give you the keys to a vehicle, a task which could have been done by my head minion, who is in fact standing right here."
"Uh--"
"So you remember why I hired you, right? To steal all the money."
"Yes, you said that when you hired me."
"This is a great job that you should take on for these reasons."
"We--we're like several days into the job. We already agreed to this."
"I just wanted to tell you both: good luck. We're all counting on you."
"I already knew all that."
"I just wanted to tell you both--"
"Jesus Christ, Fish."
-"Hey, the bombs worked! The vault is open! Looks like your role in this job is over, leaving you as nothing more than a witness and liability. So, you know, get in the van and we'll release you later unharmed."
-"What happened to the bomber, Bullock?"
"Oh, he's going to Arkham with the rest of the mentally ill at Blackgate."
"Gee, that sucks. How did you find out?"
"I read the script and there's a whole montage that explains it later."
"Then why did we need to have this conversation?"
"Hell if I know, I just work here."
-"You know what I'm going to say, Detectives. Go do it."
"Remind me again why your job exists, Essen?"
-"Dear Jim, I want to be honest and clear. I'm too scared to stay in Gotham, so I'm leaving my giant penthouse apartment and you may never hear from me again. Feel free to keep staying at my sweet pad indefinitely. PS: I'm totally not fucking Montoya. - Barbara"
"Oh, come on, I thought the Mayor put all the crazies in Arkham."
-"What if he had guessed wrong, Dent? You would have sent the kid to jail?"
"Usually they don't."
"So what you're saying is--"
"Yes. Yes, I would have."
-"Hey, Lovecraft, guess what? I'm going to bring charges against you. You'd better confess right now before I bring down those charges. Booga booga!"
"Okay, well, charge me so I can see the actual evidence against me and decide then if I'd like to take a deal.
"Shit. Teens always call heads, but shady industrialists call your bluffs. I got nothing. I'd better scream at him, because I'm mentally ill or something. That also explains why I always stand with half my face in the shadows, even when everybody else in the room is lit evenly on both sides of their face."
-"Hah! I, Penguin, have discovered that you are spying on Falcone!"
"What--what are you going to do?"
"I'm going to tell him, obviously."
"No, please don't!"
"Hah! Alright, I won't tell him... on one condition."
"What is it?"
"You have to keep doing what you've been doing and be just as secret about it as you always have been."
"...what?"
Goddamit! not only is Barbara an awful character, but the fucking subplot with:
Montoya/Gordon love triangle is ruining two characters that should have been good. It had made Montoya look like a stalkery bitch. Who now gets rewarded for being a stalkery bitch. It makes Gordon look stupid for loving her and it makes enemies of Montoya and Gordon.
I mean they had a great excuse to drop this subplot a few weeks ago with Montoya coming clean to Gordon about her previous feelings for Barbara. Now they are dragging it back up again. For what? Cheap drama and a ratings stunt lesbian kiss?
Montoya is an awesome character in the comics and animated series. To see her reduced to this hurts.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Making Renee the jealous lover is just a terrible decision.
Considering how much they're making these characters like their future versions, it's weird how different they've made Montoya. They're making her out to be a snobbish "special" police officer who looks down on all the other cops but she's always been portrayed as a down to earth cop who's really tough and is always in the middle of the action. All the way back in Batman: TAS when Montoya was created, she was close to the action and kicking ass.
Montoya is kind of stalkerish in the comics with her exes. When she was spiraling downward (after Gordon left and pre-Question) she'd often get wasted and find her girlfriend, and pick a fight with her. After she became The Question, and the Batwoman was introduced, the two of them would go back and forth, mostly because Kate was still mostly in the closet.
That said, the way the show is handling her is still a few feet below that, and it's actively impeding the story. I guess since Gordon isn't the one that will stray to break up the relationship, Barbara will be instead. I guess that means Gordon's going to be the one that bugs out to Chicago with their son.
At least the Selina-Bruce stuff wasn't bad.
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lwt1973King of ThievesSyndicationRegistered Userregular
Why, Show, why?!
You could've just had Barbara go off and leave for a good reason. Now she's back and taking up airtime with a bad plot about her getting back with her lesbian lover? Come on.
The Selina/Bruce interactions were actually quite good. I was surprised by that. I did think the background music was too overdone and was distracting during a lot of the scenes.
And yeah, the Harvey Dent plan to take down Lovecraft was laughable.
"He's sulking in his tent like Achilles! It's the Iliad?...from Homer?! READ A BOOK!!" -Handy
Is it a DC-required thing that these shows have to have a female 'lead' who soaks up 50-80% of the hatred?
By my reckoning we've had Lana, Laurel, Iris, and Barbara.
All friends/girlfriends/crushes of the main character, all kept too out of the loop to be useful in any way, their lives become a countdown to the next time they get held hostage or do something stupid to move the plot along. Need someone to do something that screws up the carefully laid plans of the protagonist? Job done.
(Okay, Iris hasn't gotten that far yet, but I can see it coming)
I'm thinking that maybe it's a part of the character design, and they should just drop the idea in future.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
Man, people keep hating on Iris.
There has been no reason to hate Iris yet. (It's CW so it'll happen, but so far her character has been fine.)
There has been no reason to hate Iris yet. (It's CW so it'll happen, but so far her character has been fine.)
It's not really hate on her, more resignation. We've seen the character type in these shows before, and we've come to expect horribleness.
Expectations that Barbara has helped to encourage.
My wife really loves this show for unknown reasons even to her. I was starting to get into it after the last two episodes and then this episode happened. Can a show be recast midway through a season? I feel that would help a lot. Dent was so amazingly awful in that one scene that I see him ruining a lot of episodes later on. When you completely blow the foreshadow scene of where your character is going it's time to just try and find another gig.
Barbara needs to be gone. Everything about her is awful top to bottom. Let her die sooner just to help the rest of us out.
And for those of us who don't read that many comics, who is Lovecraft?
Not much, technically. Spoilered anyway.
Lovecraft doesn't have anything to do with Batman per se. It's just a nod because Arkham Asylum is well known, who's name probably came from Arkham, a town in Lovecraft's stories. So the TV writers probably decided to have a bit of fun.
That said, Lovecraft (the Gotham character) owns some chemical companies, which might come into play later with Big Bad Harv (instead of Maroni being the culprit)
I really love this show, although the characters are very hit or miss. Gordon is good, the more I see of Harvey the more I like him, selina/Bruce are good, there is something missing in the Barbara/Montoya angle, Fish is great, Penguin is excellent, Nigma is terrible. It is nice to see a preview of so many batman villains but many of them are handled with a complete lack of subtlety.
Brainiac 8Don't call me Shirley...Registered Userregular
Finally watched this weeks episode.
All I can say is ugh, blech, and yuck.
Penguin's story was awesome as always. Bruce and Selina were pointless. And for the love of god, get Barbara out of the show! Also stop ruining Montoya! She is one of the most fun characters from the comic and even the animated series made her awesome. Why has she been written as this horrible, hateful, vindictive, jealous person in this show? God and Barbara is a horrible character and the actress is terrible.
Penguin, you keep being awesome. I'm only watching the show right now to see how your story ends. Ok?
Though I'm beginning to understand this show a bit better, they are trying to cross the grimness of the Nolan Batverse with the campiness of the Adam West 60's batverse. That's why so many characters have shit dialogue and there is no subtlety to anything.
MWO: Adamski
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Mego Thor"I say thee...NAY!"Registered Userregular
Harvey Bullock is the character TV needs. Barbara is the character TV deserves.
Harvey Bullock is the character TV needs. Barbara is the character TV deserves.
Barbara deserves better than being eye candy who would think Harmony was a genius.
Don't be dissing on Harmony. She almost survived 3 years of Sunnydale High and survived the following 5 years as a Vampire in Sunnydale and LA while being in close proximity to both Buffy and Angel.
She is proof that Blond and Stupid does not mean Barbara levels of Blond and Stupid.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Harmony was made useful once everyone started to plan for her to be incompetent / treacherous.
So that's what they need to do with Barbara. Just tell her not to do exactly what you want her to do.
Harmony was made useful once everyone started to plan for her to be incompetent / treacherous.
So that's what they need to do with Barbara. Just tell her not to do exactly what you want her to do.
Me: "Barbara, please don't go away forever and die!"
Barbara: "Oh yeah? How would you like it if I went away for-- hey, wait a minute..."
At first, I was indifferent, but that smug look she had on her face when she was caught and then asked for Gordon just made me want to pray for her death. Hey! Quit robbing people in broad daylight you stupid git! Then maybe you won't have to constantly play your only card with the police! Her street-wise, tough-talking punk attitude with a heart of gold is starting to wear thin. Though, I never really liked her in the the animated series, movies, or Arkham games either. I suppose that says something about me. My wife likes her though.
Looks like we're dealing with Big Bad Harvey, which is cool I guess. But I personally like the corrupted White-Knight Harvey.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Based on the teaser for the next episode, I will be moderately surprised if Bruce does not have a sudden and permanently traumatizing run-in with winged nocturnal mammals in the next episode. The setup for it is too perfect.
Based on the teaser for the next episode, I will be moderately surprised if Bruce does not have a sudden and permanently traumatizing run-in with winged nocturnal mammals in the next episode. The setup for it is too perfect.
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Yeah, they showed it in the preview last week during Sleepy Hollow. Thanks for the subtlety Gotham.
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At some point his coin will get a scratch on one side.
I hope not.
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hehehehehe
And that was to leave for good.
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-"Detectives, do you like video games? I love video games. They're so challenging. I found this evidence, here."
"What... what does this evidence have to do with video games, Ed?"
"I like video games."
"Did your mother ever have any children that lived, Ed?"
-"You, Russian thug that I hired to rob my own mob boss who would kill me if he knew. Let's have a conversation in the middle of the street so that I can give you the keys to a vehicle, a task which could have been done by my head minion, who is in fact standing right here."
"Uh--"
"So you remember why I hired you, right? To steal all the money."
"Yes, you said that when you hired me."
"This is a great job that you should take on for these reasons."
"We--we're like several days into the job. We already agreed to this."
"I just wanted to tell you both: good luck. We're all counting on you."
"I already knew all that."
"I just wanted to tell you both--"
"Jesus Christ, Fish."
-"Hey, the bombs worked! The vault is open! Looks like your role in this job is over, leaving you as nothing more than a witness and liability. So, you know, get in the van and we'll release you later unharmed."
-"What happened to the bomber, Bullock?"
"Oh, he's going to Arkham with the rest of the mentally ill at Blackgate."
"Gee, that sucks. How did you find out?"
"I read the script and there's a whole montage that explains it later."
"Then why did we need to have this conversation?"
"Hell if I know, I just work here."
-"You know what I'm going to say, Detectives. Go do it."
"Remind me again why your job exists, Essen?"
-"Dear Jim, I want to be honest and clear. I'm too scared to stay in Gotham, so I'm leaving my giant penthouse apartment and you may never hear from me again. Feel free to keep staying at my sweet pad indefinitely. PS: I'm totally not fucking Montoya. - Barbara"
"Oh, come on, I thought the Mayor put all the crazies in Arkham."
-"What if he had guessed wrong, Dent? You would have sent the kid to jail?"
"Usually they don't."
"So what you're saying is--"
"Yes. Yes, I would have."
-"Hey, Lovecraft, guess what? I'm going to bring charges against you. You'd better confess right now before I bring down those charges. Booga booga!"
"Okay, well, charge me so I can see the actual evidence against me and decide then if I'd like to take a deal.
"Shit. Teens always call heads, but shady industrialists call your bluffs. I got nothing. I'd better scream at him, because I'm mentally ill or something. That also explains why I always stand with half my face in the shadows, even when everybody else in the room is lit evenly on both sides of their face."
-"Hah! I, Penguin, have discovered that you are spying on Falcone!"
"What--what are you going to do?"
"I'm going to tell him, obviously."
"No, please don't!"
"Hah! Alright, I won't tell him... on one condition."
"What is it?"
"You have to keep doing what you've been doing and be just as secret about it as you always have been."
"...what?"
I mean they had a great excuse to drop this subplot a few weeks ago with Montoya coming clean to Gordon about her previous feelings for Barbara. Now they are dragging it back up again. For what? Cheap drama and a ratings stunt lesbian kiss?
Montoya is an awesome character in the comics and animated series. To see her reduced to this hurts.
Considering how much they're making these characters like their future versions, it's weird how different they've made Montoya. They're making her out to be a snobbish "special" police officer who looks down on all the other cops but she's always been portrayed as a down to earth cop who's really tough and is always in the middle of the action. All the way back in Batman: TAS when Montoya was created, she was close to the action and kicking ass.
That said, the way the show is handling her is still a few feet below that, and it's actively impeding the story. I guess since Gordon isn't the one that will stray to break up the relationship, Barbara will be instead. I guess that means Gordon's going to be the one that bugs out to Chicago with their son.
At least the Selina-Bruce stuff wasn't bad.
The Selina/Bruce interactions were actually quite good. I was surprised by that. I did think the background music was too overdone and was distracting during a lot of the scenes.
And yeah, the Harvey Dent plan to take down Lovecraft was laughable.
By my reckoning we've had Lana, Laurel, Iris, and Barbara.
All friends/girlfriends/crushes of the main character, all kept too out of the loop to be useful in any way, their lives become a countdown to the next time they get held hostage or do something stupid to move the plot along. Need someone to do something that screws up the carefully laid plans of the protagonist? Job done.
(Okay, Iris hasn't gotten that far yet, but I can see it coming)
I'm thinking that maybe it's a part of the character design, and they should just drop the idea in future.
There has been no reason to hate Iris yet. (It's CW so it'll happen, but so far her character has been fine.)
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And for those of us who don't read that many comics, who is Lovecraft?
It's not really hate on her, more resignation. We've seen the character type in these shows before, and we've come to expect horribleness.
Expectations that Barbara has helped to encourage.
Barbara needs to be gone. Everything about her is awful top to bottom. Let her die sooner just to help the rest of us out.
That said, Lovecraft (the Gotham character) owns some chemical companies, which might come into play later with Big Bad Harv (instead of Maroni being the culprit)
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All I can say is ugh, blech, and yuck.
Penguin's story was awesome as always. Bruce and Selina were pointless. And for the love of god, get Barbara out of the show! Also stop ruining Montoya! She is one of the most fun characters from the comic and even the animated series made her awesome. Why has she been written as this horrible, hateful, vindictive, jealous person in this show? God and Barbara is a horrible character and the actress is terrible.
Penguin, you keep being awesome. I'm only watching the show right now to see how your story ends. Ok?
Also Bullock. He's awesome too.
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Though I'm beginning to understand this show a bit better, they are trying to cross the grimness of the Nolan Batverse with the campiness of the Adam West 60's batverse. That's why so many characters have shit dialogue and there is no subtlety to anything.
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At some point, I'm expecting Steve Harvey to make an appearance.
Harvey Fierstein should make a cameo.
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I've always wanted to see a sperm character.
Maybe we'll get a "Look Who's Talking" scene.
Sperm: but everyone calls me "Robin."
Barbara deserves better than being eye candy who would think Harmony was a genius.
Don't be dissing on Harmony. She almost survived 3 years of Sunnydale High and survived the following 5 years as a Vampire in Sunnydale and LA while being in close proximity to both Buffy and Angel.
She is proof that Blond and Stupid does not mean Barbara levels of Blond and Stupid.
So that's what they need to do with Barbara. Just tell her not to do exactly what you want her to do.
Me: "Barbara, please don't go away forever and die!"
Barbara: "Oh yeah? How would you like it if I went away for-- hey, wait a minute..."
Selina... ug!
At first, I was indifferent, but that smug look she had on her face when she was caught and then asked for Gordon just made me want to pray for her death. Hey! Quit robbing people in broad daylight you stupid git! Then maybe you won't have to constantly play your only card with the police! Her street-wise, tough-talking punk attitude with a heart of gold is starting to wear thin. Though, I never really liked her in the the animated series, movies, or Arkham games either. I suppose that says something about me. My wife likes her though.
Looks like we're dealing with Big Bad Harvey, which is cool I guess. But I personally like the corrupted White-Knight Harvey.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.