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Political Philosophy

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Rchanen wrote: »
    If you want a larger scale issue try this: What level of nationalism is ideal for determining the size and composition of a nation-state and what role does ethnicity play in the nation state, especially in light of Wilson's principles at the end of World War I?
    That's not an "issue" per se, but it is interesting and sounds like an essay question on a college-level history class's final exam.

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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    As a marketer by schooling, I like the number nine. Also, single digits. Good for everyone.

    :trollface:

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    Money and power grant different kinds of freedom. Money lets you buy things, power lets you change things. The Kochs don't care that they can afford anything, because what they want is to spread their ideology (which incidentally makes them more money, but that may not be the main consideration).

    Money is probably more important that power, yes, but largely only because those with power listen to those with money.

    You can't have a one page tax code that is sensible. If you think you can, then try it
    Why target the Kochs exactly? Plenty of other rich people do far more insidious backroom dealing in the political realm.

    Wouldn't be difficult. Everyone pays X% of their income in taxes, no deductions. 9% would my preferred rate for everybody. 9% rate for corporations.
    I'll make the same suggestion I make to every libertarian, which is to read The Jungle.

    EDIT: Also, this.
    EDIT2: Also also civil rights.
    And those bad things could happen at the time of The Jungle because the Internet didn't exist and everybody didn't have a computer with a camera on it in their pocket. And the states are free to regulate how they wish. I just don't think the federal government should do most of what it does. Because it doesn't have to do most of what it does. If it only did what it MUST do, we'd be a lot better off.

    The Tragedy of the Commons, while interesting in theory, doesn't hash as much in practice like the people who favor the theory think it does.

    Civil rights? Libertarians are all for those. Just treat everybody the same. No special treatment. And, before you quote Barry Goldwater, his reasoning for voting against the CRA of 1964 was due to it taking away certain business rights away. Whether it was right to do that or not is really not the issue here.

    The point is that you can't fix civil rights abuses in a libertarian government. And people are going to be prejudiced because people are people. And majorities will try to legally enforce their dominance, because they always try to legally enforce their dominance.

    Also, meat contamination is not an outdated thing.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Why 9%? Let's start there.
    As a marketer by schooling, I like the number nine. Also, single digits. Good for everyone.

    This can't be serious, you can't base a tax rate for the entire nation because you like the sound of it.

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The tax code is complex because an absurdly simple code is absurdly simple to game. So laws are made to prevent that gaming. Which is further gamed. And so on.

    Collecting taxes from rich people is a never ending game of relativistic Antarean HyperChess. And each chess piece is also a game of relativistic Antarean HyperChess.
    How do you game "You must pay X% of your income in taxes" exactly?

    A complicated tax code just makes it easier for the rich to game it by paying lobbyists to get the easily-influenced politician to insert a clause in the tax code to benefit them fiscally.

    It really doesn't need to be that complex, considering every business submits what they pay their employees to the government as a way to validate tax returns. The Internet really made that easy.

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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I want to have the discussion this thread is pretending to want to make because it's interesting.

    But.
    But what? Because I disagree with you politically? Or because this forum lacks balance politically or something?
    _J_ wrote: »
    Could you explain this in greater detail?
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    All issues can ultimately be explained in terms of physics.

    That doesn't make it terribly sane to discuss racial issues in the context of the Higgs boson.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Why 9%? Let's start there.
    As a marketer by schooling, I like the number nine. Also, single digits. Good for everyone.

    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.

    Lh96QHG.png
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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Seriously. Why 9%? What is the economic reason for that? Why is that the best rate?

    Why a flat rate rather than the historically more useful progressive tax system that is used literally everywhere in the world?

    But more importantly, why 9%?

    Big Sim City fan?

    He's secretly Herman Cain.

    So late old man.

    But apparently Cain put more thought into this than he did.

    America has super low taxes compared to the rest of the developed world and yet we somehow remain NOT a tax haven.

    So.

    Hmm.

    Lh96QHG.png
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The tax code is complex because an absurdly simple code is absurdly simple to game. So laws are made to prevent that gaming. Which is further gamed. And so on.

    Collecting taxes from rich people is a never ending game of relativistic Antarean HyperChess. And each chess piece is also a game of relativistic Antarean HyperChess.
    How do you game "You must pay X% of your income in taxes" exactly?

    A complicated tax code just makes it easier for the rich to game it by paying lobbyists to get the easily-influenced politician to insert a clause in the tax code to benefit them fiscally.

    It really doesn't need to be that complex, considering every business submits what they pay their employees to the government as a way to validate tax returns. The Internet really made that easy.

    For starters, please define "pay", "income", "taxes", "your" and "x".

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    _J_ wrote: »
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    My question was about the "outside of abortion".

    I know that any issue can be assessed in fiscal terms. My question is about the exception you posited: "outside of abortion".

    Why is abortion the exception?
    Because it is very difficult to ascertain the value of an unborn human's life. There's no good way to do that. You won't know if you're about to give birth to the next Einstein or Bundy.
    Marathon wrote: »
    But why is a flat tax inherently better than a progressive one?
    Globalization. Companies and capital will flow to wherever doing business is easier.

    BigWillieStyles on
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    _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    My question was about the "outside of abortion".

    I know that any issue can be assessed in fiscal terms. My question is about the exception you posited: "outside of abortion".

    Why is abortion the exception?
    Because it is very difficult to ascertain the value of an unborn human's life. There's no good way to do that. You won't know if you're about to give birth to the next Einstein or Bundy.

    Why is it difficult to ascertain the value of an unborn human's life, but the value of everything else can be put in fiscal terms?

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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    How would you deal with the tremendous drop in revenue caused by transition to a flat tax over a progressive tax structure? "Cutting spending" is meaningless. Which spending and by how much? How are you planning to balance the books here?

    Secondly, you rail against 'regulation'. This seems a pretty meaningless statement also - I'm sure Liberals could find some regulations they disagree with, and many conservatives would be fine with many of the regulations on the books. it's like saying one is against "laws", which sounds ridiculous on the face of it. Please cite exactly what regulations you find problematic.

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Why tolerate the rich breaking the law, then? Why refrain from making examples? Why refrain from seizing their worldly possessions and throwing them in prison?
    What did the rich do that was illegal? I never said I'd tolerate rich people breaking the law.

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    SurikoSuriko AustraliaRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    But why is a flat tax inherently better than a progressive one?
    Globalization. Companies and capital will flow to wherever doing business is easier.

    How would you prevent this being a race to the bottom in terms of wages and working conditions?

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    The point is that you can't fix civil rights abuses in a libertarian government. And people are going to be prejudiced because people are people. And majorities will try to legally enforce their dominance, because they always try to legally enforce their dominance.

    Also, meat contamination is not an outdated thing.
    In what way does a government being libertarian prevent fixing civil rights abuses exactly?

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    DivideByZeroDivideByZero Social Justice Blackguard Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I want to have the discussion this thread is pretending to want to make because it's interesting.

    But.
    But what? Because I disagree with you politically? Or because this forum lacks balance politically or something?
    _J_ wrote: »
    Could you explain this in greater detail?
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    All issues can ultimately be explained in terms of physics.

    That doesn't make it terribly sane to discuss racial issues in the context of the Higgs boson.

    Spin-1 bosons move like this, but spin-0 bosons move like this

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKERS
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    Captain MarcusCaptain Marcus now arrives the hour of actionRegistered User regular
    How do you game "You must pay X% of your income in taxes" exactly?

    Rich people have more money, and it costs more to prevent poor people from killing them and taking their money. Thus the rich pay more in taxes.
    the rich to game it by paying lobbyists to get the easily-influenced politician to insert a clause in the tax code to benefit them fiscally

    I can see three parties that deserve prison right here, especially after the Make Lobbying Illegal Act of 2017.

    Seriously man all your arguments boil down to "what if they do X?"

    Well, don't let them do X. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    This can't be serious, you can't base a tax rate for the entire nation because you like the sound of it.
    It's single digits, so everybody with any income should be able to pay it, unlike, say, 50%. If everybody has to pay the same rate, everyone has an incentive to keep the rates low.

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    A one page tax code?

    For a country with 310 million citizens, 1.6 trillion in exports, 2.3 trillion in imports, a 15 or so trillion a year GDP?

    That's more than a little bit goddamn fucking insane

    A one page tax code might work for a small city's municipal taxes, but it would take piles of court decisions before anyone was sure what meant what

    override367 on
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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Why tolerate the rich breaking the law, then? Why refrain from making examples? Why refrain from seizing their worldly possessions and throwing them in prison?
    What did the rich do that was illegal? I never said I'd tolerate rich people breaking the law.

    I would imagine that sheltering their money from taxes like you implied would be considered fraud, which is illegal.

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    The point is that you can't fix civil rights abuses in a libertarian government. And people are going to be prejudiced because people are people. And majorities will try to legally enforce their dominance, because they always try to legally enforce their dominance.

    Also, meat contamination is not an outdated thing.
    In what way does a government being libertarian prevent fixing civil rights abuses exactly?

    There's no profit in it.

    And it, historically, hasn't.

    These aren't new ideas. They've failed every time they've been tried.

    Lh96QHG.png
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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.
    I find it funny that you think the federal government pays for firemen and policemen. I'm talking about the federal rate. Once again, states are allowed to do what they want. Because you can move to the state that's better.

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    My question was about the "outside of abortion".

    I know that any issue can be assessed in fiscal terms. My question is about the exception you posited: "outside of abortion".

    Why is abortion the exception?
    Because it is very difficult to ascertain the value of an unborn human's life. There's no good way to do that. You won't know if you're about to give birth to the next Einstein or Bundy.

    Why is it difficult to ascertain the value of an unborn human's life, but the value of everything else can be put in fiscal terms?

    In particular, what is the value of gay marriage? (Or marriage in general really). Or social equality? Gender issues? Etc

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.
    I find it funny that you think the federal government pays for firemen and policemen. I'm talking about the federal rate. Once again, states are allowed to do what they want. Because you can move to the state that's better.

    The federal government does pay for firemen and policemen. What do you think the forestry service does? Or the military? Or the fucking F-B-I

    Lh96QHG.png
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    shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I want to have the discussion this thread is pretending to want to make because it's interesting.

    But.
    But what? Because I disagree with you politically? Or because this forum lacks balance politically or something?
    _J_ wrote: »
    Could you explain this in greater detail?
    Just give me a few examples of issues you think can't be put in fiscal terms. Let me dazzle you. That's what I'm here for.

    All issues can ultimately be explained in terms of physics.

    That doesn't make it terribly sane to discuss racial issues in the context of the Higgs boson.

    Well sure, but that's cause that's a white boson with a white name and so it's not familiar with the racial issues that effect more ethnic-sounding subatomic particles.

    shryke on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    The point is that you can't fix civil rights abuses in a libertarian government. And people are going to be prejudiced because people are people. And majorities will try to legally enforce their dominance, because they always try to legally enforce their dominance.

    Also, meat contamination is not an outdated thing.
    In what way does a government being libertarian prevent fixing civil rights abuses exactly?

    give me an example of a more laissez faire country with equal or better social equality

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    MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.
    I find it funny that you think the federal government pays for firemen and policemen. I'm talking about the federal rate. Once again, states are allowed to do what they want. Because you can move to the state that's better.

    It is really just that easy to pack up and relocate, especially if you're poor

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Rich people have more money, and it costs more to prevent poor people from killing them and taking their money. Thus the rich pay more in taxes.

    I can see three parties that deserve prison right here, especially after the Make Lobbying Illegal Act of 2017.

    Seriously man all your arguments boil down to "what if they do X?"

    Well, don't let them do X. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
    You really have that little faith in poor people not to Robin Hood the rich, huh?

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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Rich people have more money, and it costs more to prevent poor people from killing them and taking their money. Thus the rich pay more in taxes.

    I can see three parties that deserve prison right here, especially after the Make Lobbying Illegal Act of 2017.

    Seriously man all your arguments boil down to "what if they do X?"

    Well, don't let them do X. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.
    You really have that little faith in poor people not to Robin Hood the rich, huh?

    during the great depression the government had to deploy the national guard

    because eat the rich was starting to sound like something that was viable

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    It is really just that easy to pack up and relocate, especially if you're poor
    I imagine it's a lot easier than moving to another country. Which is my point.

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.
    I find it funny that you think the federal government pays for firemen and policemen. I'm talking about the federal rate. Once again, states are allowed to do what they want. Because you can move to the state that's better.

    Firemen and policemen you say?

    https://www.stlbeacon.org/#!/content/15737/federal_funds_for_hiring_firefighters_an_anti_terrorism_or_employment_program

    http://www.nj.com/camden/index.ssf/2014/10/camden_county_metro_police_receive_32_million_federal_grant.html

    Turns out they do!

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    That's the single dumbest fucking thing I've ever read.

    Will we be able to maintain a strong national defense? Have you any idea what that costs? What about roads, bridges, and other infrastructure? Police and firemen? Hospitals? Education for the masses? Clean water? The research and development that keeps us on top?

    Have you any idea what the minimum operational costs of the United States are? Do you care?

    You want a tax rate of 9% because you like the number 9?

    And you wonder why I think you're not interested in a real discussion?

    Please.
    I find it funny that you think the federal government pays for firemen and policemen. I'm talking about the federal rate. Once again, states are allowed to do what they want. Because you can move to the state that's better.

    It is really just that easy to pack up and relocate, especially if you're poor

    Obviously, it's why my favorite map exists.

    strangemapsoverlay1-500x312.jpg

    Dots are cotton plantations just before the Civil War, blue/red is county by county presidential vote results, 2008.

    (Also it's awesome [sort of] that that's all caused by the Chicxulub crater from 65 million years ago, but I'm getting off topic)

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    during the great depression the government had to deploy the national guard

    because eat the rich was starting to sound like something that was viable
    Property rights entail protection of those rights by the government. I'm not against enforcing property rights.

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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    It is really just that easy to pack up and relocate, especially if you're poor
    I imagine it's a lot easier than moving to another country. Which is my point.

    I think you'll find the difference in 99.7% impossible and 99/9% impossible is fairly insignificant.

    Lh96QHG.png
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    davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    Oh wait, I figured it out!

    That one page is approximately 9 miles long. Pressed from the previously longest living redwood North California had to offer.

    Nine.

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    BigWillieStylesBigWillieStyles Expert flipper of tables Inside my mind...Registered User regular
    Dots are cotton plantations just before the Civil War, blue/red is county by county presidential vote results, 2008.

    (Also it's awesome [sort of] that that's all caused by the Chicxulub crater from 65 million years ago, but I'm getting off topic)
    It's downright creepy most of the heavily concentrated plantation areas are blue.

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    AiouaAioua Ora Occidens Ora OptimaRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    It is really just that easy to pack up and relocate, especially if you're poor
    I imagine it's a lot easier than moving to another country. Which is my point.

    For the poor, moving to another county is usually impossible.

    life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
    fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
    that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
    bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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    AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    during the great depression the government had to deploy the national guard

    because eat the rich was starting to sound like something that was viable
    Property rights entail protection of those rights by the government. I'm not against enforcing property rights.

    How will the government do that with no money thanks to your absurdly low income tax?

    Lh96QHG.png
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited October 2014
    Dots are cotton plantations just before the Civil War, blue/red is county by county presidential vote results, 2008.

    (Also it's awesome [sort of] that that's all caused by the Chicxulub crater from 65 million years ago, but I'm getting off topic)
    It's downright creepy most of the heavily concentrated plantation areas are blue.

    it's because minorities tend to vote for the party that doesn't keep punching them in the dick

    and it demonstrates how populations that are poor have trouble moving between generations

    override367 on
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    FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD interior crocodile alligator ⇔ ǝɹʇɐǝɥʇ ǝᴉʌoɯ ʇǝloɹʌǝɥɔ ɐ ǝʌᴉɹp ᴉRegistered User regular
    My belief is simple: I trust the power of spontaneous order in a mostly free market capitalistic system.

    I'm surprised that @_J_ didn't challenge your first principles. (_J_, what happened to your intellectual consistency!?)

    BigWillieStyles, why do you "trust the power of spontaneous order in a mostly free market capitalistic system"?

    1) What ethical value or values do you think are maximized in a mostly free market capitalistic [sic] system?
    2) What evidence do you have that a mostly free market capitalist system maximizes those values?
    3) Why do you only believe in a "mostly" free market capitalist system? What parts of an economic system would you prefer to not be free market and/or capitalist, and why?

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.

    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
This discussion has been closed.