As annoying as it was to watch during coverage, all these shuffle-cheats make me appreciate the effort Ari Lax put into riffle-shuffling. I can't remember what the recommended number of riffles is (8?) but he seemed pretty dedicated to proper randomization.
I've been trying to do Lax's shuffle technique, where he riffles while leaving the cards on the table rather than picking them up. It seems super fast, which is nice. So far it's been pretty difficult.
As of now I do mostly mash shuffles with a couple riffles thrown in. When I'm shuffling my opponent's deck I exclusively do a slower mash to avoid bending cards or sleeve corners, while looking away from it.
experienced poker dealer here
riffles and flat riffles are greatly enabled at casino tables by the specific cloth used on them. That said, the key to a good flat riffle is to do it gently, targeting the corners. think of it as trying to puff the deck up with air, like you're trying to make it look as big as possible for someone who wants to eat it. then the deck will be loose after the riffle and push together easy.
watching the video, I'm a little confused by something, and it may be the peculiarities of tournament magic - but is he shuffling his opponent's deck, after his opponent cuts it?
He is definitely retaining that card on purpose, btw, if he says otherwise he's essentially saying "I came outta my mama just coincidentally holding cards in my left hand in the exact, counter-intuitive way card cheats and magicians hold their cards"
square dealers will almost always either hold the left packet with an extra finger on the top or bottom, using the pads of their fingers - three fingers on the side, slack index across the "top" is a very distinctive grip used for card control and the camouflage of card control
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
Hah, the new text on Goblin Welder is still a nightmare.
Also, the green deck looks like fun.
Oof, yeah that's pretty rough. I'm surprised how awkward it is to switch things from battlefield to graveyard, even taking and extra temporary zone with cards like Living Death. I wonder if they'll eventually leverage the "exchange" terminology, e.g. "exchange target creature you control for target creature card in your graveyard" (probably needs more work), since it already has the "if one of the targets becomes illegal before resolution, the exchange fails" clause built into it. Might just not be worth the complication though.
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they updated the tournament policy at higher RELs to require a cut after the mandatory shuffling of your opponent's deck. I can't think of any big problems that this would cause, and it would probably deter a lot of this kind of cheating.
Theodore Flooseveltproud parent of eight beautiful girls and shalmelodorne (which is currently being ruled by a woman (awesome role model for my daughters)) #dornedadRegistered Userregular
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they updated the tournament policy at higher RELs to require a cut after the mandatory shuffling of your opponent's deck. I can't think of any big problems that this would cause, and it would probably deter a lot of this kind of cheating.
what they should require is an optional flat shuffle and/or cut
Also I can't believe high level magic doesn't require cut cards
It's part of what makes the Commander decks so useful as a testing tool. There's no real risk to the balance of Modern and Standard in printing them, but if they're awesome enough (Illusory Angel) they can be brought back in a later deck.
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
Hi, I'm a Level 2 Judge and I'm here to tell you: always shuffle a library when offered. Cuts are insufficient and considerably easier to exploit for manipulation.
Let's be clear here: DCI policy is that libraries must be sufficiently randomized, such that no player has knowledge of the position of any card in any library. As such, the game rules instruct that both players are to shuffle anytime a library is manipulated so as to maintain this randomization. There is no set guide or requirement for this; only that we hand out warnings if we believe that it has not been adequately randomized. The problem with most good sleight of hand is that you are performing motions and operations that, at a casual glance, appear to be sufficiently vigorous to meet this standard.
The thing with cheaters is that their job, their livelihood, is breaking the system. You can make the system harder to break, but they spend their lives finding the chinks in that armor. And we can't possibly make a rule for every case where we catch someone cheating - then we're basically playing whack-a-mole TSA style, instead of proactively looking for the problems. Moreover, our job isn't really to catch cheaters - it's to make sure everyone has a fair and enjoyable experience. While watching for cheating is part of that, there's a whole lot of other things that we have to focus on too, so it's not always easy for us to scrutinize for someone who has honed a technique that lets them do what Humphries or Bottecher did.
The best things you can do as a player to help prevent things like this:
1) Always shuffle libraries.
2) Watch for suspicious behavior. Report it to a judge. (And once you have done so, don't assume that they're ignoring your information just because they aren't responding to the situation in a way you'd expect. Judges are keenly aware that players often behave differently around us, so we may be taking a different approach to the problem.)
3) At any non-Professional REL event (i.e. Day 2 of a GP or Pro Tour level events), you are allowed to ask the players to stop their match while you speak to a judge. Don't tell the players what's wrong in detail, because that usually leads to them trying to fix it themselves, and if there is cheating involved, affords the cheater an opportunity to obfuscate his error. This is usually sufficient: "Hey guys, can you hold on for a second? I think the game is a little messed up right now but I want a judge to check it out first. 'JUDGE!'"
4) Always shuffle libraries. Cuts while shuffling are recommended and encouraged, but always get some variety of shuffling in there, even at FNM. It's not because you don't trust your opponent - it's because it protects BOTH of you from undue accusation and harm.
Not sure if you're looking at Boettcher or Humpries, but yeah, in tournament play you're the last one to shuffle/cut/rearrange your opponent's cards each time their deck is shuffled. Usually at FNM level events people just shuffle their own deck, present, and opponent cuts it, but the opponent is allowed to do a full shuffle of it, and at higher level REL events they're required to shuffle rather than just cutting.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
Hi, I'm a Level 2 Judge and I'm here to tell you: always shuffle a library when offered. Cuts are insufficient and considerably easier to exploit for manipulation.
Let's be clear here: DCI policy is that libraries must be sufficiently randomized, such that no player has knowledge of the position of any card in any library. As such, the game rules instruct that both players are to shuffle anytime a library is manipulated so as to maintain this randomization. There is no set guide or requirement for this; only that we hand out warnings if we believe that it has not been adequately randomized. The problem with most good sleight of hand is that you are performing motions and operations that, at a casual glance, appear to be sufficiently vigorous to meet this standard.
The thing with cheaters is that their job, their livelihood, is breaking the system. You can make the system harder to break, but they spend their lives finding the chinks in that armor. And we can't possibly make a rule for every case where we catch someone cheating - then we're basically playing whack-a-mole TSA style, instead of proactively looking for the problems. Moreover, our job isn't really to catch cheaters - it's to make sure everyone has a fair and enjoyable experience. While watching for cheating is part of that, there's a whole lot of other things that we have to focus on too, so it's not always easy for us to scrutinize for someone who has honed a technique that lets them do what Humphries or Bottecher did.
The best things you can do as a player to help prevent things like this:
1) Always shuffle libraries.
2) Watch for suspicious behavior. Report it to a judge. (And once you have done so, don't assume that they're ignoring your information just because they aren't responding to the situation in a way you'd expect. Judges are keenly aware that players often behave differently around us, so we may be taking a different approach to the problem.)
3) At any non-Professional REL event (i.e. Day 2 of a GP or Pro Tour level events), you are allowed to ask the players to stop their match while you speak to a judge. Don't tell the players what's wrong in detail, because that usually leads to them trying to fix it themselves, and if there is cheating involved, affords the cheater an opportunity to obfuscate his error. This is usually sufficient: "Hey guys, can you hold on for a second? I think the game is a little messed up right now but I want a judge to check it out first. 'JUDGE!'"
4) Always shuffle libraries. Cuts while shuffling are recommended and encouraged, but always get some variety of shuffling in there, even at FNM. It's not because you don't trust your opponent - it's because it protects BOTH of you from undue accusation and harm.
Self completed cuts are weak. All lifted shuffles are weak, particularly overhand shuffles, which magic players seem to love (easiest to do with sleeved cards?)...overhands are essentially a huge red flag
the issue becomes if there's a step where one person gets to shuffle last without an opposite player cut, the deck isn't as safe, because when player b shuffles, he can set player a's deck against player a.
player a should cap their shuffle with a flat shuffle
then you do a mutual flat cut onto a cut card
player b should move the top stop first, and only touch the top stock
player a should close the cut by only touching the bottom stock to place it on top of the deck
ideally both of them use one hand.
That's not an invulnerable process but it pushes the skill level required to cheat WAY up.
requiring a final opponent shuffle is great if player A is stacking his own deck, but leaves you intensely vulnerable, and loading or dumping a particular card is really useful in magic.
It's like EVERY game of magic is a hand of chicago stud.
Humphries or Bottecher aren't using "refined" slight of hand, either, at least not in terms of the things I've been shown videos of. They're actually both pretty bad at it. Like worse than me, and I am neither a cheat nor a magician, just someone who deals cards semi-frequently and semi-professionally and has a defensive interest in it. There are potentially people MUCH better.
Posts
Also comeuppance holy cow
please be red please be red please be red
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
experienced poker dealer here
riffles and flat riffles are greatly enabled at casino tables by the specific cloth used on them. That said, the key to a good flat riffle is to do it gently, targeting the corners. think of it as trying to puff the deck up with air, like you're trying to make it look as big as possible for someone who wants to eat it. then the deck will be loose after the riffle and push together easy.
watching the video, I'm a little confused by something, and it may be the peculiarities of tournament magic - but is he shuffling his opponent's deck, after his opponent cuts it?
He is definitely retaining that card on purpose, btw, if he says otherwise he's essentially saying "I came outta my mama just coincidentally holding cards in my left hand in the exact, counter-intuitive way card cheats and magicians hold their cards"
square dealers will almost always either hold the left packet with an extra finger on the top or bottom, using the pads of their fingers - three fingers on the side, slack index across the "top" is a very distinctive grip used for card control and the camouflage of card control
I host a podcast about movies.
If you're wonder what each list looks like
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Green.
Huh.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
guess i dont need to dig mine out
Also, the green deck looks like fun.
Steam
Oof, yeah that's pretty rough. I'm surprised how awkward it is to switch things from battlefield to graveyard, even taking and extra temporary zone with cards like Living Death. I wonder if they'll eventually leverage the "exchange" terminology, e.g. "exchange target creature you control for target creature card in your graveyard" (probably needs more work), since it already has the "if one of the targets becomes illegal before resolution, the exchange fails" clause built into it. Might just not be worth the complication though.
that's ... wrong.
the last thing you do to a deck should be a cut. no wonder this is a problem.
I host a podcast about movies.
If I get one I'd probably go with White because I've done such a 180 on the concept of Nahiri since it turns out she is just the Stoneforge Mystic.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they updated the tournament policy at higher RELs to require a cut after the mandatory shuffling of your opponent's deck. I can't think of any big problems that this would cause, and it would probably deter a lot of this kind of cheating.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
no to modern, yes to legacy, ??? to vintage
what they should require is an optional flat shuffle and/or cut
Also I can't believe high level magic doesn't require cut cards
I host a podcast about movies.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
It's part of what makes the Commander decks so useful as a testing tool. There's no real risk to the balance of Modern and Standard in printing them, but if they're awesome enough (Illusory Angel) they can be brought back in a later deck.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
Well
commander, mostly
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
just buy the deck
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Reef Worm alone is worth 35 dollars.
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
yet
Hi, I'm a Level 2 Judge and I'm here to tell you: always shuffle a library when offered. Cuts are insufficient and considerably easier to exploit for manipulation.
Let's be clear here: DCI policy is that libraries must be sufficiently randomized, such that no player has knowledge of the position of any card in any library. As such, the game rules instruct that both players are to shuffle anytime a library is manipulated so as to maintain this randomization. There is no set guide or requirement for this; only that we hand out warnings if we believe that it has not been adequately randomized. The problem with most good sleight of hand is that you are performing motions and operations that, at a casual glance, appear to be sufficiently vigorous to meet this standard.
The thing with cheaters is that their job, their livelihood, is breaking the system. You can make the system harder to break, but they spend their lives finding the chinks in that armor. And we can't possibly make a rule for every case where we catch someone cheating - then we're basically playing whack-a-mole TSA style, instead of proactively looking for the problems. Moreover, our job isn't really to catch cheaters - it's to make sure everyone has a fair and enjoyable experience. While watching for cheating is part of that, there's a whole lot of other things that we have to focus on too, so it's not always easy for us to scrutinize for someone who has honed a technique that lets them do what Humphries or Bottecher did.
The best things you can do as a player to help prevent things like this:
1) Always shuffle libraries.
2) Watch for suspicious behavior. Report it to a judge. (And once you have done so, don't assume that they're ignoring your information just because they aren't responding to the situation in a way you'd expect. Judges are keenly aware that players often behave differently around us, so we may be taking a different approach to the problem.)
3) At any non-Professional REL event (i.e. Day 2 of a GP or Pro Tour level events), you are allowed to ask the players to stop their match while you speak to a judge. Don't tell the players what's wrong in detail, because that usually leads to them trying to fix it themselves, and if there is cheating involved, affords the cheater an opportunity to obfuscate his error. This is usually sufficient: "Hey guys, can you hold on for a second? I think the game is a little messed up right now but I want a judge to check it out first. 'JUDGE!'"
4) Always shuffle libraries. Cuts while shuffling are recommended and encouraged, but always get some variety of shuffling in there, even at FNM. It's not because you don't trust your opponent - it's because it protects BOTH of you from undue accusation and harm.
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
Self completed cuts are weak. All lifted shuffles are weak, particularly overhand shuffles, which magic players seem to love (easiest to do with sleeved cards?)...overhands are essentially a huge red flag
the issue becomes if there's a step where one person gets to shuffle last without an opposite player cut, the deck isn't as safe, because when player b shuffles, he can set player a's deck against player a.
player a should cap their shuffle with a flat shuffle
then you do a mutual flat cut onto a cut card
player b should move the top stop first, and only touch the top stock
player a should close the cut by only touching the bottom stock to place it on top of the deck
ideally both of them use one hand.
That's not an invulnerable process but it pushes the skill level required to cheat WAY up.
requiring a final opponent shuffle is great if player A is stacking his own deck, but leaves you intensely vulnerable, and loading or dumping a particular card is really useful in magic.
It's like EVERY game of magic is a hand of chicago stud.
Humphries or Bottecher aren't using "refined" slight of hand, either, at least not in terms of the things I've been shown videos of. They're actually both pretty bad at it. Like worse than me, and I am neither a cheat nor a magician, just someone who deals cards semi-frequently and semi-professionally and has a defensive interest in it. There are potentially people MUCH better.
I host a podcast about movies.
That is the most annoying thing
so much lime
it takes 7 good riffles to break up a deck without a cut. ain't nobody got time for that.
I host a podcast about movies.
Steam | Twitter
So like, what
you wear gloves when you play?
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
Three step process
Dress up as a magic player
Commit totally by playing magic in costume
Win halloween
I host a podcast about movies.
Personally I would go with
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
it is pretty adorable.
if it was a basketball player it would be hugsy bouges
I host a podcast about movies.