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[Agents of SHIELD] Age of Inhumans

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Posts

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    Regarding the Avengers stuff, for AoU at least
    Whedon gave an interview where the stuff with Coulson came up and, like, despite being the guy who helped spearhead the show and did the pilot, he seems to think that the TV stuff and movie stuff are separate canons, so he thinks Coulson is still dead in the movies or something.

    It's weird. Whedon's being weird.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Regarding the Avengers stuff, for AoU at least
    Whedon gave an interview where the stuff with Coulson came up and, like, despite being the guy who helped spearhead the show and did the pilot, he seems to think that the TV stuff and movie stuff are separate canons, so he thinks Coulson is still dead in the movies or something.

    It's weird. Whedon's being weird.

    That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Regarding the Avengers stuff, for AoU at least
    Whedon gave an interview where the stuff with Coulson came up and, like, despite being the guy who helped spearhead the show and did the pilot, he seems to think that the TV stuff and movie stuff are separate canons, so he thinks Coulson is still dead in the movies or something.

    It's weird. Whedon's being weird.

    Got a link to that interview? That just doesn't seem right.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    skeldare wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    Regarding the Avengers stuff, for AoU at least
    Whedon gave an interview where the stuff with Coulson came up and, like, despite being the guy who helped spearhead the show and did the pilot, he seems to think that the TV stuff and movie stuff are separate canons, so he thinks Coulson is still dead in the movies or something.

    It's weird. Whedon's being weird.

    Got a link to that interview? That just doesn't seem right.

    Nope, Whedon really is that weird.

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  • SeidkonaSeidkona Had an upgrade Registered User regular
    He does know these are comics right? What's the old saying?

    The only person who ever stayed dead in a Marvel book was Uncle Ben.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
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  • skeldareskeldare Gresham, ORRegistered User regular
    Wow.

    Next thing you know he'll wish he'd kept Buffy dead.

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  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    He does know these are comics right? What's the old saying?

    The only person who ever stayed dead in a Marvel book was Uncle Ben.

    Uhh...about that...

  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    edited April 2015
    That quote is phrased oddly. Clearly Whedon doesn't think they're separate universes. And he's right that it definitely cheapens the death in Avengers. And it wasn't his choice to kill Phil, so it makes sense that he would want him to at least stay dead if he was forced to do it and try to make it have an impact.

    As for Buffy, her resurrection was actually more thematically important than pretty much any instance I can think of dealing with bringing back a "dead" character.

    But on that note, bringing back Phil might undercut the drama in Avengers, but it draws a few extra underlines under Fury's ruthlessness and paranoia. So it does kind of bring a different sort of dramatic impact. And the TAHITI episodes are some of the best stuff AoS has done.

    minor incident on
    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    I never watched much of Buffy, but I did like how when she was resurrected it was (Buffy spoiler)
    "You assholes, I was in Heaven and you pull me back into this hellhole.".
    I guess they kind of went with something like that with Coulson, but it didn't work quite as well comparatively.

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    That quote is phrased oddly. Clearly Whedon doesn't think they're separate universes. And he's right that it definitely cheapens the death in Avengers. And it wasn't his choice to kill Phil, so it makes sense that he would want him to at least stay dead if he was forced to do it and try to make it have an impact.

    As for Buffy, her resurrection was actually more thematically important than pretty much any instance I can think of dealing with bringing back a "dead" character.

    But on that note, bringing back Phil might undercut the drama in Avengers, but it draws a few extra underlines under Fury's ruthlessness and paranoia. So it does kind of being a different sort of dramatic impact. And the TAHITI episodes are some of the best stuff AoS has done.

    ...having serious deja vu with this post, have you written this on another thread/other site in response to this same thing?

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    I think Whedon has a point, kinda. Coulson's death in Avengers is made retroactively less meaningful by his later resurrection. And I doubt he thinks the shows are literally in different continuities so much as, for thematic purposes, he doesn't want to address Coulson being alive in the films. Which is fine.

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  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    That quote is phrased oddly. Clearly Whedon doesn't think they're separate universes. And he's right that it definitely cheapens the death in Avengers. And it wasn't his choice to kill Phil, so it makes sense that he would want him to at least stay dead if he was forced to do it and try to make it have an impact.

    As for Buffy, her resurrection was actually more thematically important than pretty much any instance I can think of dealing with bringing back a "dead" character.

    But on that note, bringing back Phil might undercut the drama in Avengers, but it draws a few extra underlines under Fury's ruthlessness and paranoia. So it does kind of being a different sort of dramatic impact. And the TAHITI episodes are some of the best stuff AoS has done.

    ...having serious deja vu with this post, have you written this on another thread/other site in response to this same thing?

    Not... That I'm aware of?

    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    As the series goes on it's going to be increasingly stupid if Coulson is always somewhere just before or just after Avengers are.

    At some point he's going to need to be in the same place as at least one of them.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    That quote is phrased oddly. Clearly Whedon doesn't think they're separate universes. And he's right that it definitely cheapens the death in Avengers. And it wasn't his choice to kill Phil, so it makes sense that he would want him to at least stay dead if he was forced to do it and try to make it have an impact.

    As for Buffy, her resurrection was actually more thematically important than pretty much any instance I can think of dealing with bringing back a "dead" character.

    But on that note, bringing back Phil might undercut the drama in Avengers, but it draws a few extra underlines under Fury's ruthlessness and paranoia. So it does kind of being a different sort of dramatic impact. And the TAHITI episodes are some of the best stuff AoS has done.

    ...having serious deja vu with this post, have you written this on another thread/other site in response to this same thing?

    Not... That I'm aware of?

    Hah, guess it's just coincidence. Read a post that used almost identical phrasing in describing how it undercuts Phil drama a bit but ups the ante for Fury's ruthlessness.

  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    As the series goes on it's going to be increasingly stupid if Coulson is always somewhere just before or just after Avengers are.

    At some point he's going to need to be in the same place as at least one of them.

    It's a fair point, and I think the writers are aware of that, which is why they've largely dealt with their own issues and fought their own battles (outside of that one "cleaning up after Thor" episode). I think that's really the best way to handle it, rather than having Coulson and Co. try to do a piddly job of pitching in with the big guns. Keeping it more of a character drama keeps it interesting and keeps it solidly in the Whedon family wheelhouse.

    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • ameybesameybes vvvv MERBERNRegistered User regular
    Oh well!

  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    Kamar wrote: »
    Kamar wrote: »
    That quote is phrased oddly. Clearly Whedon doesn't think they're separate universes. And he's right that it definitely cheapens the death in Avengers. And it wasn't his choice to kill Phil, so it makes sense that he would want him to at least stay dead if he was forced to do it and try to make it have an impact.

    As for Buffy, her resurrection was actually more thematically important than pretty much any instance I can think of dealing with bringing back a "dead" character.

    But on that note, bringing back Phil might undercut the drama in Avengers, but it draws a few extra underlines under Fury's ruthlessness and paranoia. So it does kind of being a different sort of dramatic impact. And the TAHITI episodes are some of the best stuff AoS has done.

    ...having serious deja vu with this post, have you written this on another thread/other site in response to this same thing?

    Not... That I'm aware of?

    Hah, guess it's just coincidence. Read a post that used almost identical phrasing in describing how it undercuts Phil drama a bit but ups the ante for Fury's ruthlessness.

    Haha, well either I subconsciously borrowed a thought, or someone actually agrees with me. I remember it being talked about a lot when the TAHITI episodes aired, and I'm pretty sure someone probably brought up the comparison at the time.

    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    As the series goes on it's going to be increasingly stupid if Coulson is always somewhere just before or just after Avengers are.

    At some point he's going to need to be in the same place as at least one of them.

    SHIELD isn't cleaning up after the Avengers anymore.

  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think Whedon has a point, kinda. Coulson's death in Avengers is made retroactively less meaningful by his later resurrection. And I doubt he thinks the shows are literally in different continuities so much as, for thematic purposes, he doesn't want to address Coulson being alive in the films. Which is fine.

    In one way sure. For the audience the loss of Coulson has less impact as this strong, visceral gutpunch because we know he's okay (for relative terms of okay) down the road, but I think if we look at it from a character development standpoint we'll find that meaning is still there. Coulson still *died* there, that death still went on to inspire the Avengers, carried them through that arc of their lives into forming the team. Coulson being lazarus'd by Fury with some Kree blood doesn't undo that; it still happened.

    And then that carries forward for character development. Coulson, we know, felt like his life was changed from his experience with death, he came out of it a different man than he was before. And then he's further developed in his discoveries regarding the truth of his resurrection and the fallout regarding the side-effects of the usage of the Kree Blood and having his trust betrayed by Fury in being brought back and having TAHITI used on him.

    So in one way, his death loses some meaning. But his resurection creates new meanings as well for how it impacts his and others arcs going forward (well, presuming it's utilized by the writers, which it has been so far).

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular

    One hundred pages means that we need a new thread.

    Whoever makes the new one should clearly specify the policy on AOU spoilers, for all of the new meanings that they'll give to Fitz's ongoing quest for a monkey.

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
  • ThisThis Registered User regular
    edited April 2015
    I'm kinda hoping it's some sort of fakeout that Whedon is doing. Deliberately saying that in an interview to get everyone to believe Coulson won't show up, and then BAM when he does we all lose it.

    This on
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think Whedon has a point, kinda. Coulson's death in Avengers is made retroactively less meaningful by his later resurrection. And I doubt he thinks the shows are literally in different continuities so much as, for thematic purposes, he doesn't want to address Coulson being alive in the films. Which is fine.

    In one way sure. For the audience the loss of Coulson has less impact as this strong, visceral gutpunch because we know he's okay (for relative terms of okay) down the road, but I think if we look at it from a character development standpoint we'll find that meaning is still there. Coulson still *died* there, that death still went on to inspire the Avengers, carried them through that arc of their lives into forming the team. Coulson being lazarus'd by Fury with some Kree blood doesn't undo that; it still happened.

    And then that carries forward for character development. Coulson, we know, felt like his life was changed from his experience with death, he came out of it a different man than he was before. And then he's further developed in his discoveries regarding the truth of his resurrection and the fallout regarding the side-effects of the usage of the Kree Blood and having his trust betrayed by Fury in being brought back and having TAHITI used on him.

    So in one way, his death loses some meaning. But his resurection creates new meanings as well for how it impacts his and others arcs going forward (well, presuming it's utilized by the writers, which it has been so far).

    I'd even argue that his subsequent resurrection and staring role in Agents of Shield gives his death more gavitas than before.

    Previously Coulson was just a guy who showed up in the movies as a fairly unflappable spy, he doesn't really even have any good character beats until the very movie he dies in. Now we know that he's not just some guy who works for Fury, he had a life, a girlfriend, friends, responsibilities, morals, a personality, and he gave up all that for a shot at the big times. To be with the Avengers and to try and save the world and thwart the bad guy.

    He wasn't just a one note SHIELD goon, he had a lot to lose and knowing what he was sacrificing for puts that scene in a much deeper light.

  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    Are you trying to tell me "I will taze you and watch Super Nanny while you drool on the carpet" isn't a great character beat?

    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • DedwrekkaDedwrekka Metal Hell adjacentRegistered User regular
    Are you trying to tell me "I will taze you and watch Super Nanny while you drool on the carpet" isn't a great character beat?

    Yes. It's a good joke, but Coulson isn't developed enough by that point for it to be much more than that. The thing that makes jokes good character beats is when you have enough of an idea of who the character is for the joke to mean something specifically about the character. A good character beat calls back to some aspects of the character, and the whole point of that scene is that we don't know enough about Coulson to know if he's joking.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    One hundred pages means that we need a new thread.

    Whoever makes the new one should clearly specify the policy on AOU spoilers, for all of the new meanings that they'll give to Fitz's ongoing quest for a monkey.

    no it means we have to start talking about anime Marvel

  • minor incidentminor incident expert in a dying field njRegistered User regular
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Are you trying to tell me "I will taze you and watch Super Nanny while you drool on the carpet" isn't a great character beat?

    Yes. It's a good joke, but Coulson isn't developed enough by that point for it to be much more than that. The thing that makes jokes good character beats is when you have enough of an idea of who the character is for the joke to mean something specifically about the character. A good character beat calls back to some aspects of the character, and the whole point of that scene is that we don't know enough about Coulson to know if he's joking.

    I actually agree and was joking.

    Phil, however, was almost certainly not joking about Super Nanny.

    Ah, it stinks, it sucks, it's anthropologically unjust
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    One hundred pages means that we need a new thread.

    Whoever makes the new one should clearly specify the policy on AOU spoilers, for all of the new meanings that they'll give to Fitz's ongoing quest for a monkey.

    no it means we have to start talking about anime Marvel

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KVnRR5QIus

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think Whedon has a point, kinda. Coulson's death in Avengers is made retroactively less meaningful by his later resurrection. And I doubt he thinks the shows are literally in different continuities so much as, for thematic purposes, he doesn't want to address Coulson being alive in the films. Which is fine.

    In one way sure. For the audience the loss of Coulson has less impact as this strong, visceral gutpunch because we know he's okay (for relative terms of okay) down the road, but I think if we look at it from a character development standpoint we'll find that meaning is still there. Coulson still *died* there, that death still went on to inspire the Avengers, carried them through that arc of their lives into forming the team. Coulson being lazarus'd by Fury with some Kree blood doesn't undo that; it still happened.

    And then that carries forward for character development. Coulson, we know, felt like his life was changed from his experience with death, he came out of it a different man than he was before. And then he's further developed in his discoveries regarding the truth of his resurrection and the fallout regarding the side-effects of the usage of the Kree Blood and having his trust betrayed by Fury in being brought back and having TAHITI used on him.

    So in one way, his death loses some meaning. But his resurection creates new meanings as well for how it impacts his and others arcs going forward (well, presuming it's utilized by the writers, which it has been so far).

    I'd even argue that his subsequent resurrection and staring role in Agents of Shield gives his death more gavitas than before.

    Previously Coulson was just a guy who showed up in the movies as a fairly unflappable spy, he doesn't really even have any good character beats until the very movie he dies in. Now we know that he's not just some guy who works for Fury, he had a life, a girlfriend, friends, responsibilities, morals, a personality, and he gave up all that for a shot at the big times. To be with the Avengers and to try and save the world and thwart the bad guy.

    He wasn't just a one note SHIELD goon, he had a lot to lose and knowing what he was sacrificing for puts that scene in a much deeper light.

    Honestly, I kind of see film Coulson and AoS Coulson as different characters. Film Coulson was the charming and earnest SHIELD guy who was just important enough that his death had meaning.

    But to save his world, Coulson had to become someone else. He had to become... something else.

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  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Dedwrekka wrote: »
    Lanz wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I think Whedon has a point, kinda. Coulson's death in Avengers is made retroactively less meaningful by his later resurrection. And I doubt he thinks the shows are literally in different continuities so much as, for thematic purposes, he doesn't want to address Coulson being alive in the films. Which is fine.

    In one way sure. For the audience the loss of Coulson has less impact as this strong, visceral gutpunch because we know he's okay (for relative terms of okay) down the road, but I think if we look at it from a character development standpoint we'll find that meaning is still there. Coulson still *died* there, that death still went on to inspire the Avengers, carried them through that arc of their lives into forming the team. Coulson being lazarus'd by Fury with some Kree blood doesn't undo that; it still happened.

    And then that carries forward for character development. Coulson, we know, felt like his life was changed from his experience with death, he came out of it a different man than he was before. And then he's further developed in his discoveries regarding the truth of his resurrection and the fallout regarding the side-effects of the usage of the Kree Blood and having his trust betrayed by Fury in being brought back and having TAHITI used on him.

    So in one way, his death loses some meaning. But his resurection creates new meanings as well for how it impacts his and others arcs going forward (well, presuming it's utilized by the writers, which it has been so far).

    I'd even argue that his subsequent resurrection and staring role in Agents of Shield gives his death more gavitas than before.

    Previously Coulson was just a guy who showed up in the movies as a fairly unflappable spy, he doesn't really even have any good character beats until the very movie he dies in. Now we know that he's not just some guy who works for Fury, he had a life, a girlfriend, friends, responsibilities, morals, a personality, and he gave up all that for a shot at the big times. To be with the Avengers and to try and save the world and thwart the bad guy.

    He wasn't just a one note SHIELD goon, he had a lot to lose and knowing what he was sacrificing for puts that scene in a much deeper light.

    Honestly, I kind of see film Coulson and AoS Coulson as different characters. Film Coulson was the charming and earnest SHIELD guy who was just important enough that his death had meaning.

    But to save his world, Coulson had to become someone else. He had to become... something else.

    The last episode brought back funny Coulson in AoS. "Take me to your leader" is a great line.

  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Sure, but that guy is now buried under Save The World Coulson. The Arrow metaphor is apt.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx It's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovels Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Sure, but that guy is now buried under Save The World Coulson. The Arrow metaphor is apt.

    I missed the Arrow metaphor and don't even watch the show.

    Coulson is always Save The World Coulson, so a bit of specificity would be nice.

  • jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Sure, but that guy is now buried under Save The World Coulson. The Arrow metaphor is apt.
    I missed the Arrow metaphor and don't even watch the show.

    Coulson is always Save The World Coulson, so a bit of specificity would be nice.
    https://youtu.be/qo6hU98dXOc

    TLDW is that Oliver Queen (millionaire playboy) becomes The Arrow (hooded vigilante) in order to save his city. His struggle is that he can't really be both - either his personal life suffers or the criminals get a chance to rebound.

    Coulson is going through something similar, but it's mostly implied/off screen. He died, and lost out on his previous relationships. Now that he's the director of SHIELD, even more of who he is becomes subsumed by his work.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    TLDW is that Oliver Queen (millionaire playboy) becomes The Arrow (hooded vigilante) in order to save his city. His struggle is that he can't really be both - either his personal life suffers or the criminals get a chance to rebound.

    Coulson is going through something similar, but it's mostly implied/off screen. He died, and lost out on his previous relationships. Now that he's the director of SHIELD, even more of who he is becomes subsumed by his work.

    Coulson changing from his resurrection was a plot point in season 1. Many characters, like Akela Amador, noticed how he wasn't acting like his old self. Since then he's made peace with that fact and moved forward.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    One hundred pages means that we need a new thread.

    Whoever makes the new one should clearly specify the policy on AOU spoilers, for all of the new meanings that they'll give to Fitz's ongoing quest for a monkey.

    no it means we have to start talking about anime Marvel

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KVnRR5QIus

    The image at 0:55 is hilarious.

  • SealSeal Registered User regular
    Hilarious until you think of the neck pain, you'd need a chiropractor after every flight.

  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    One hundred pages means that we need a new thread.

    Whoever makes the new one should clearly specify the policy on AOU spoilers, for all of the new meanings that they'll give to Fitz's ongoing quest for a monkey.

    no it means we have to start talking about anime Marvel

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KVnRR5QIus

    Title Colon Subtitle Colon Name Slash Name.

    Out of control.

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  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    Seal wrote: »
    Hilarious until you think of the neck pain, you'd need a chiropractor after every flight.

    No one ever needs a chiropractor

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Seal wrote: »
    Hilarious until you think of the neck pain, you'd need a chiropractor after every flight.

    No one ever needs a chiropractor

    ?

  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    Apothe0sis wrote: »
    Seal wrote: »
    Hilarious until you think of the neck pain, you'd need a chiropractor after every flight.

    No one ever needs a chiropractor

    ?
    chiropractic is pseudoscience and a crime against English morphology.



  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwZ_4nL9IYU

    My first thread to reach page 100! :)

This discussion has been closed.