As long as he's willing to accept whatever punishment the league will give him for his actions, then I'm perfectly fine with him so long as he doesn't do some kind of horribly illegal shit like skin babies to make an ultra-soft pillow cover.
Terrell Owens was a turd, but it isn't my place to tell him to conform to anything.
I know you guys are tired of this but I had to post it.
Bill Nye basically states Belichicks explanation makes "no sense". Was on good morning america this morning. Showed why etc. Stated the only way you could make the air pressure change was with the needle.
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
edited January 2015
Except for temperature change.
You can't say it makes no sense if you're making up situations. The NFL hasn't even told people the whole story (and a lot of stories are coming out making their official statements bullshit, but I digress) so I'm curious how people can figure out of something can or cannot happen without all the pieces of a formula. Figure out volume without mass or pressure.
Temperature change didnt affect the whole set of even one subset would be the response I would gather. IE it didnt affect the 12th ball. Edit: This has been discussed to death it is mainly to show other people throwing their hat in the ring. The sports science guys didnt even try to cover how the air was released just what it would do. Which is not really disproving anything. Just that the effects might not have the intended results some might expect. They also didnt test density changes from weather or misconceptions of such. IE are the balls "harder" or softer.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
If it was just weather why did none of the colts balls deflate?
It's an overblown "scandal" to be sure , but clearly someone tampered with the pats balls.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Also didn't belichick say he gave the balls to the ref and said inflate them to 12.5 psi? This raises the question, will the refs do that? Set them to a certain psi for you? Did the pats give the balls to the refs, say that, then the refs never checked/reset them?
Either way I don't care. (Monotone) on to Seattle.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Also tired of this subject. But if the Pats balls were only inflated to the minimum requirement to pass, then any amount of shrinkage would put them below standard. If Luck likes his balls "Rodgers" style and inflated as much as possible, then they would still be acceptable after exposure to the cold.
If it was just weather why did none of the colts balls deflate?
It's an overblown "scandal" to be sure , but clearly someone tampered with the pats balls.
If the Colts balls were inflated to 13.5 PSI and dropped 1 PSI, they'd be legal at 12.5 PSI. Also there is also the possibility that the Colts overinflated their balls.
We have an unverified report from an unknown source that 11 of 12 Patriots balls were 2 PSI short of the legal limit. The official NFL statement to this point makes no mention of that. Sources also said that D'Quell Jackson noticed that the ball was flat; he's since said that he didn't notice. Belichick has claimed in a press conference that "[w]hen the footballs are delivered to the officials’ locker room, the officials were asked to inflate them to 12.5 PSI, what exactly they did, I don’t know."
Belichick's statement indicates to me that he delivered them in a state where they were potentially already under-inflated; his statement makes the implicit claim that he asked the refs to ensure that the balls were in a legal state at the start of the game. The refs might not inflated them, either through miscommunication or omission or because they don't consider it their responsibility. That being the case, the only deliberate modification to their pressure might have been at the half, when they were inflated.
Shadowhope on
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If I learned anything in the past NFL leaks... it is that they are usually correct. There is reason we have not heard about 11/12 other than leaks because it damns any defense of weather to a degree. Something the NFL would want to keep under wraps if at all possible.
Also tired of this subject. But if the Pats balls were only inflated to the minimum requirement to pass, then any amount of shrinkage would put them below standard. If Luck likes his balls "Rodgers" style and inflated as much as possible, then they would still be acceptable after exposure to the cold.
Sigh. No
There are three testing situations. All balls inflated in a warm environment.
1)balls tested cold in warm environment
2)balls tested warm in warm environment
3) balls tested cold in cold environment.
If 1 the a ball inflated to 12.5 psi will test around 10.5. A ball inflated to 13.5 psi will test around 11.5 psi. So in this situation all properly inflated balls fail. The pats do not have a ball that meets guidelines without inflating it to over 14.5 psi. Similarly the colts. Moreover we can say this is unlikely since footballs will heat up pretty quickly. And of course that every ball didn't fail.
If 2 then there are no psi changes. Everything tests as it was inflated to. So if this were the case tampering is a must.
if 3 the reference point drops as well as the pressure inside the balls. A ball tested at 10.5 would have been inflated to 11.5 psi. A ball tested at 12.5 about 13.5. In this situation it's still not possible for the pats to not have tampered with their balls.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
You have zero evidence it can affect their fumble rate. You have zero evidence they have used deflated balls in any game other than the last one. You have zero evidence they even knowingly deflated the balls yet.
The fumble "evidence" is absurd. The two teams at the bottom of the curve are just as off scale as the patriots. They must be deliberately overinflating the balls, huh? No other explanation for that one.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
edited January 2015
It's even more ridiculous to assume they've done it for 9 years and no one has ever once noticed until now, but it makes such a substantial difference to the ball that it would make you instantly great at not fumbling and have a distinct effect on the game.
I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you care so much
y2jake215 on
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Dude is off the charts. I thought Brunell crying was ridiculous.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
It's even more ridiculous to assume they've done it for 9 years and no one has ever once noticed until now, but it makes such a substantial difference to the ball that it would make you instantly great at not fumbling and have a distinct effect on the game.
I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you care so much
I think my favorite was him describing roughly the same time period as "forever" when it comes to SB championships and "recent" in regard to Spygate.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
No no, it wasn't a one year suspension, it's a one year banishment.
Apparently the Browns operate in a feudal system.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
One would think being a star player for the Browns would be punishment enough...
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
You have zero evidence it can affect their fumble rate. You have zero evidence they have used deflated balls in any game other than the last one. You have zero evidence they even knowingly deflated the balls yet.
The fumble "evidence" is absurd. The two teams at the bottom of the curve are just as off scale as the patriots. They must be deliberately overinflating the balls, huh? No other explanation for that one.
1) Balls that are easier to grip are harder to fumble. We have evidence of an abnormally low rate of fumbles. That is evidence. I mean unless you want to negate all of science because induction doesn't work that is how we have to do things.
2) no the two teams at the bottom are not just as off the charts. They are actually within a what we would expect to be the variance for that type of distribution. At least according to the people who ran the numbers.
I care because every time someone says anything you two/three won't shut up about how it's wrong or how it doesn't matter or how everyone does it or whatever excuse you're going to come up with next. Stuff is presented without context or argument and you all respond like someone killed your dog if it's in any way shines a negative light on your Pats.
Aaron Rodger's career interception rates are off the charts, at 1.6%. That's 0.4% better than the next best in NFL history (Brady). This clearly provides evidence that Aaron Rodger's overinflated balls are having a marked effect on his interception rate.
Right?
Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
You have zero evidence it can affect their fumble rate. You have zero evidence they have used deflated balls in any game other than the last one. You have zero evidence they even knowingly deflated the balls yet.
The fumble "evidence" is absurd. The two teams at the bottom of the curve are just as off scale as the patriots. They must be deliberately overinflating the balls, huh? No other explanation for that one.
1) Balls that are easier to grip are harder to fumble. We have evidence of an abnormally low rate of fumbles. That is evidence. I mean unless you want to negate all of science because induction doesn't work that is how we have to do things.
2) no the two teams at the bottom are not just as off the charts. They are actually within a what we would expect to be the variance for that type of distribution. At least according to the people who ran the numbers.
I care because every time someone says anything you two/three won't shut up about how it's wrong or how it doesn't matter or how everyone does it or whatever excuse you're going to come up with next. Stuff is presented without context or argument and you all respond like someone killed your dog if it's in any way shines a negative light on your Pats.
They're assuming a normal distribution, +10 fumbles is just as off the charts as -10
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
edited January 2015
There are just tons of other things that affect fumbles (again, which are NOT random) that you can't just assume it's inflation. That's the problem with saying "it's an impossibly low number" - because fumbles are not a normal distribution, and the analysis is fundamentally based on that assumption
y2jake215 on
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
First off, I am sorry about the argument. It was just my intention to share the two latest individuals to state something. Second, it is indeed a possibility that the Pats have done this for 9 years and no one has known it. If this situation has shown us anything, like bounty gate and spy gate, is that this is one of those "everyone is doing it" type events. Not really "everyone is doing it" but that the ball preparation is one of those things in the NFL that had very relaxed oversight. And that is being generous.
I understand, Goumindong, that you hate the Pats enough that you're trying to prove malice by ignoring some facts, guessing on others, and throwing some logic 101 to make it sound legitimate.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Actually it is possible nobody tampered with the balls and the refs fucked up their job.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
You have zero evidence it can affect their fumble rate. You have zero evidence they have used deflated balls in any game other than the last one. You have zero evidence they even knowingly deflated the balls yet.
The fumble "evidence" is absurd. The two teams at the bottom of the curve are just as off scale as the patriots. They must be deliberately overinflating the balls, huh? No other explanation for that one.
1) Balls that are easier to grip are harder to fumble. We have evidence of an abnormally low rate of fumbles. That is evidence. I mean unless you want to negate all of science because induction doesn't work that is how we have to do things.
2) no the two teams at the bottom are not just as off the charts. They are actually within a what we would expect to be the variance for that type of distribution. At least according to the people who ran the numbers.
I care because every time someone says anything you two/three won't shut up about how it's wrong or how it doesn't matter or how everyone does it or whatever excuse you're going to come up with next. Stuff is presented without context or argument and you all respond like someone killed your dog if it's in any way shines a negative light on your Pats.
They're assuming a normal distribution, +10 fumbles is just as off the charts as -10
Yes but the bottom teams are -10 and the top teams are +10 and the pats are +30. The pats, have fumble rates in some of the worst weather in the league like they're some of the better ball handlers who also play in a dome.
Their fumble rate is +20 plays/fumble over the next closes team that plays outside.
Aaron Rodger's career interception rates are off the charts, at 1.6%. That's 0.4% better than the next best in NFL history (Brady). This clearly provides evidence that Aaron Rodger's overinflated balls are having a marked effect on his interception rate.
Right?
Only if that were so uncommon in the number of samples(ie number of QBs). Which it probably isn't.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
There are just tons of other things that affect fumbles (again, which are NOT random) that you can't just assume it's inflation. That's the problem with saying "it's an impossibly low number" - because fumbles are not a normal distribution, and the analysis is fundamentally based on that assumption
Yes, they're treating fumbles as events that just sort of happen. It's ignoring that differential between players who DO fumble and players who DON'T and treating the team as a single unit as opposed to a number of individuals, fundamentally misunderstanding the basic analysis required to make such a conclusion.
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Here in Canada, our balls are slightly bigger. Also, we have fewer downs, and stuff like this can happen:
Sharp-eyed viewers may see a familiar face at about 1:07, trying to shake the hand of an invisible man.
Steam - Talon Valdez :Blizz - Talonious#1860 : Xbox Live & LoL - Talonious Monk @TaloniousMonk Hail Satan
3DS Code: 5043-2172-1361
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Terrell Owens was a turd, but it isn't my place to tell him to conform to anything.
The Cowboys.
He's not getting a new deal. After next year? I'd say Raiders or he retires.
Bill Nye basically states Belichicks explanation makes "no sense". Was on good morning america this morning. Showed why etc. Stated the only way you could make the air pressure change was with the needle.
In contrast the sports scients guys did this which was pulled from ESPN webpage heh. Then reuploaded it later.
You can't say it makes no sense if you're making up situations. The NFL hasn't even told people the whole story (and a lot of stories are coming out making their official statements bullshit, but I digress) so I'm curious how people can figure out of something can or cannot happen without all the pieces of a formula. Figure out volume without mass or pressure.
It's an overblown "scandal" to be sure , but clearly someone tampered with the pats balls.
Either way I don't care. (Monotone) on to Seattle.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
If the Colts balls were inflated to 13.5 PSI and dropped 1 PSI, they'd be legal at 12.5 PSI. Also there is also the possibility that the Colts overinflated their balls.
We have an unverified report from an unknown source that 11 of 12 Patriots balls were 2 PSI short of the legal limit. The official NFL statement to this point makes no mention of that. Sources also said that D'Quell Jackson noticed that the ball was flat; he's since said that he didn't notice. Belichick has claimed in a press conference that "[w]hen the footballs are delivered to the officials’ locker room, the officials were asked to inflate them to 12.5 PSI, what exactly they did, I don’t know."
Belichick's statement indicates to me that he delivered them in a state where they were potentially already under-inflated; his statement makes the implicit claim that he asked the refs to ensure that the balls were in a legal state at the start of the game. The refs might not inflated them, either through miscommunication or omission or because they don't consider it their responsibility. That being the case, the only deliberate modification to their pressure might have been at the half, when they were inflated.
Sigh. No
There are three testing situations. All balls inflated in a warm environment.
1)balls tested cold in warm environment
2)balls tested warm in warm environment
3) balls tested cold in cold environment.
If 1 the a ball inflated to 12.5 psi will test around 10.5. A ball inflated to 13.5 psi will test around 11.5 psi. So in this situation all properly inflated balls fail. The pats do not have a ball that meets guidelines without inflating it to over 14.5 psi. Similarly the colts. Moreover we can say this is unlikely since footballs will heat up pretty quickly. And of course that every ball didn't fail.
If 2 then there are no psi changes. Everything tests as it was inflated to. So if this were the case tampering is a must.
if 3 the reference point drops as well as the pressure inside the balls. A ball tested at 10.5 would have been inflated to 11.5 psi. A ball tested at 12.5 about 13.5. In this situation it's still not possible for the pats to not have tampered with their balls.
I'm sorry, but you've jumped headlong into conspiracy theory territory, one which often breeds lunatics and craziness.
Somehow I might be even more tired of gangnam style than deflategate, which is pretty impressive by its own right
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Damn.
Even then, I don't think that can stand up unless the NFL has a blanket policy about their players not drinking.
I'd even go so far as to say unless it's court ordered as part of the punishment for his DUI I think it's kinda horseshit.
dude really? Discussing what we know and what effect it might have had is not conspiracy theory. And as each new piece of info comes out it becomes increasingly unlikely that the Pats are innocent. First it's that it totally didn't happen, then when we find out it did you claim it was totally the weather, then when it becomes clear it couldn't have been the weather, you sY it couldn't have had any effect. Then we have evidence that it can have an effect in that that their fumble rate is shockingly low and you say there can be no other explanation but that Belicheck is a God of coaching and getting his players to wrap the ball up and also that strict physical determinism means nothing can have an effect except what you say does. Then it's "well everyone does it"
You know what really drives me though? It's how fucking terrible Pats fans are about this and really I just can't wait to see what excuse you have next.
Only sort of correct. If that were the case then the pats would have had to knowingly submit deflated balls. Which is almost as bad as deflating them after the fact.
I mean unless you're suggesting that the refs and NFL and colts eauent manager conspired to have this be an issue 2 weeks before the Super Bowl in one of the worst seasons for scandals in recent history for a team with the most recent history of cheating.
You have zero evidence it can affect their fumble rate. You have zero evidence they have used deflated balls in any game other than the last one. You have zero evidence they even knowingly deflated the balls yet.
The fumble "evidence" is absurd. The two teams at the bottom of the curve are just as off scale as the patriots. They must be deliberately overinflating the balls, huh? No other explanation for that one.
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I guess I'm just having a hard time understanding why you care so much
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
I think my favorite was him describing roughly the same time period as "forever" when it comes to SB championships and "recent" in regard to Spygate.
Apparently the Browns operate in a feudal system.
1) Balls that are easier to grip are harder to fumble. We have evidence of an abnormally low rate of fumbles. That is evidence. I mean unless you want to negate all of science because induction doesn't work that is how we have to do things.
2) no the two teams at the bottom are not just as off the charts. They are actually within a what we would expect to be the variance for that type of distribution. At least according to the people who ran the numbers.
I care because every time someone says anything you two/three won't shut up about how it's wrong or how it doesn't matter or how everyone does it or whatever excuse you're going to come up with next. Stuff is presented without context or argument and you all respond like someone killed your dog if it's in any way shines a negative light on your Pats.
Right?
They're assuming a normal distribution, +10 fumbles is just as off the charts as -10
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Yes but the bottom teams are -10 and the top teams are +10 and the pats are +30. The pats, have fumble rates in some of the worst weather in the league like they're some of the better ball handlers who also play in a dome.
Their fumble rate is +20 plays/fumble over the next closes team that plays outside.
Only if that were so uncommon in the number of samples(ie number of QBs). Which it probably isn't.
Yes, they're treating fumbles as events that just sort of happen. It's ignoring that differential between players who DO fumble and players who DON'T and treating the team as a single unit as opposed to a number of individuals, fundamentally misunderstanding the basic analysis required to make such a conclusion.