So I was watching ENB's alt run last night(General late game spoilers)
And apparently Gehrman has a dialogue while he's sleeping along the lines of, "How much longer is going to be Laurence? I'm an old man now, I can't keep doing this forever."
It could be anything but I'm still holding out for Moon Presence being Laurence even though the beast skull in the Grand Cathedral probably was his.
I'm not sure. Related to Laurence, these things i'm not sure about:
"Heir to the ritual of blood, purveyor of ministration. Place your hand on the altar's sacred covering, and inscribe Master Laurence's adage upon your flesh."
This note is before the grand cathedral. So is touching the altar after Amelia "inscribing Master Laurence's adage upon your flesh?" If so, what is that adage? Is it fear the old blood? Because I thought that was more Willem's adage, that Laurence presumably ignored when he split from him.
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
This note from the Mensis college lecture building seems to indicate that Laurence and his associates at the college of Mensis beckoned the moon presence.
"Three third cords."
This note from the 2nd floor of the lecture building though, I wonder about. Is it possible that Laurence ate 3 cords and did the ending we did, becoming a new moon presence? And he's now working to keep the hunter's dream alive and against the nightmare ritual great ones? This seems a stretch, because Gehrman is still trapped in the dream so obviously Laurence didn't kill him and then kill the moon presence.
Maybe Laurence used the cords and defeated the moon presence before the whole hunter's dream/Gehrman thing started, and he's responsible for starting it in the first place.
I've gotten that sleeping Gehrman dialogue too, and I'm really interested to know what it really means. The how much longer thing and can't do this forever sounds like he's talking to the moon presence, but we also know that it's not like from Gehrman's point of view there's an end in sight. If we do what he wants us to, we just let him kill us and he's still stuck in the dream creating a new headstone and waiting for the next hunter to come along and do it again.
Also, I think I just had an epiphany regarding Rom, but still more questions:
This whole time I've been thinking that Rom was "on our side," and defeating him to drop the rituals/illusions was something he wanted. But now, I'm thinking what's actually the case is that Rom has trapped Willem at Byrgenwerth with him and is on the side of the great ones doing the Mensis Ritual. He's working to keep the Nightmare Ritual hidden so nobody can stop it. Hell, maybe Laurence is the one that set it up so you'd be able to access the path to Byrgenwerth if you could get to that altar. And doesn't it seem like Willem is now a nearly dead zombie, with the only thing he can still do is point you at the thing you need to destroy?
Check these lore notes:
"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us. A terrible shame. It makes my head shudder uncontrollably."
This note from the cathedral ward I think is Laurence or somebody referring to Willem as the lost master. They still respected Willem despite him seeking evolution through insight instead of blood. I think the "all manner of rituals" is the spider(Rom) keeping the nightmare ritual hidden.
"A watchman of Byrgenwerth guards the gate with a password, the sacred adage of the Grand Cathedral."
So the sacred adage of the Grand Cathedral is still "fear the old blood." Makes me think that Laurence was using the blood, but in a more measured way to try to heal people, not for experimentation the way the Choir and Mensis were.
"The spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."
Another mention of Rom hiding rituals. But this one to me seems to reveal more about Rom's intentions. She's hiding the rituals because she doesn't want to share true enlightenment. She wants to keep everybody from seeing the nightmare ritual take place, so that it can just happen and a new great one will be born.
Also, are the college of Mensis and the Choir related in some way? Both of them are secreted away, but at first glance it seems they're after 2 different things. The choir is interested in the cosmos and mensis is interested in the nightmare ritual. Mensis is interested in keeping everything hidden that could be used to stop the ritual. Presumably the "hunter" between you and the key to Willem/Rom is from Mensis, but she has access to one of the arcane tools. However, so does Micolash. They keep the Unseen Village hidden behind a Rom ritual. But the key to the upper cathedral ward where the orphanage is and where they keep Ebrietas is in the unseen village. Why?
Also, the tonsil stone which is what you need to be taken to the Mensis lecture hall prior to stopping Rom's ritual says
"A latticed, deformed rock, or perhaps a meteorite."
Certainly seems cosmic, but Patches the Spider gives it to you so that you'll be "a lamb for his god" Amygdala. Why do the lesser Amygdalas let you live if you have a piece of meteorite?
Laurence
They both say, in unison, "Fear the Old Blood". I think that scene is to re-enforce that even though he's splitting from them, he will absolutly keep his master's words in his heart and won't fuck with the blood too deeply.
My guess is that Willem and Laurence found the blood to have healing properties, and Willem thought to keep it within the school, while Laurence thought to share it with the citizens who were being affected with the Beast Plague, and establishes the healing church.
Overall setting super duper spoilers
I think at this point, I'm sure of a few of things.
1. Hunter's, and by extention, the beast plague, existed prior to the dream's creation. It's said that the Hunter's once had firm connections, and in fact, where largly created by the Church, but that was "forgotten".
2. Laurence established the Healing Church, and that he, along with his era of Hunters(Which included Gehrman of course) summoned the "Moon Presence", with heavy hints that he, is, indeed the Moon Presence. Why is up for discussion, but it's not unlikley that they discovered the source of the beastplauge, and took measures.
3. I am 99% sure that Odeon is the big bad motherfucker behind the scenes, and is in fact the One Reborn, and the previous inhabitant of the moon. He is without a doubt the one that drove the church insane after Laurence's departure at the very least.
And lastly, the Doll(also big spoilers)
The doll really ties most of my theroies about Laurence together.
The Doll's clothing descriptions describes it's designs as so elaborate it's bordering on madness. We get our three umbilical cords from the Abandoned Workshop(And it's old and shriviled), Fake Iosefka, and Adrianne, who are both pregnant with Great Ones. However, there are other, older Great Ones in Yharnam. 3, to be precise. Rom, Ammy, and Ebritas, daughter of the Cosmos. When a great one is born it sheds it's umbilical cord. And we find one, old one, in the Abandoned Workshop in the real world, on an altar. Which is significant, verily so. Because that means a great one was born there, and shed it's cord, and that it was venerated by the Workshop Hunter's of the time.
Lastly, and more importantly, there is only one Gravestone that is present in both the Hunter's Dream, and the Abandoned workshop.
Occasionally, the doll occasionally moves there, to pray. This is super, SUPER IMPORTANT.
The doll herself states that she was created by man, and that she loves man because to her, men are her creators, her GOD, so of course she loves us, as we love our god's. So why would she pray to a specific gravestone unless it was a man of great siginficance, perhaps even, the person who created her?
Now, normally, this would be enough evidence to say that the grave that she prays to was, more than likley, the man who created her. So If I'm saying that man is Laurence, who created her as his insight was raised as he was eating umbilical cords, well, he's dead. So he can't be the Moon Presence.
Only, they don't erect graves JUST because you died. We know that because we have our own grave at the end of the game if we let Gehrman kill us and seperate us from the dream. The grave might simply represent seperation. There's a good chance Elieen's, Djura's, and Gascoine and Henryck's graves are all there.
Lastly, the name, "Moon Presence". It's nature is largly a mystery, and, strangly, it seems like a beneficial entity, unlike the other Great Ones, who are often mysterious, or in Ammy and Odeon's cases, just assholes. However Moon Presence is a distinctly positive force in the world of Yharnam. Well, maybe Postitive isn't the right word. Anti-Great One, would be more precise.
However, what seperates it from the other great ones, is, it's name.
Rom The Vacuous Spider.
Mergo's Wet Nurse.
Ebritas, the Daughter of the Cosmos.
Ammy, the huge asshole spider guy(MAY have made that one up).
They all have their own, very distinct names. However, Moon Presence, is literally "Moon Presence". As in, "The thing that's in the moon".
There is no sense of self or pride, or even identity, in it's name. It simply is there. For a purpose? For a reason? It dosen't even take a name, like it has no interest in being a Great One, or being anything, for that matter, other than fufilling it's purpose.
Lastly, Gehrnam speaks of Laurence, TO Laurence, in the present tense. He could just be crazy and old from his time in the Dream, but the fact that he dosen't venerate anything, yet prays and speaks to the moon and it grants him power, is pretty heavily hinting that whoever the Moon Presence is, it knows Gehrman, and Gehrman knows it.
The only person who could fill all of this criteria is Laurence.
Last side theory
Laurence's actual Great One name is Kosm. THINK ABOUT IT
I wish the actual story in these games were better and more interesting.
I mean the actual story of my character, from the start of the game to the end of it.
It feels like the vast majority of the effort in writing is put into backstory and lore, while the actual stories of the main games are just kinda "hey wander from place to place and kill things because...reasons. Learn about the cooler backstory along the way I guess?"
I wish the actual story in these games were better and more interesting.
I mean the actual story of my character, from the start of the game to the end of it.
It feels like the vast majority of the effort in writing is put into backstory and lore, while the actual stories of the main games are just kinda "hey wander from place to place and kill things because...reasons. Learn about the cooler backstory along the way I guess?"
It's too detached for me.
I see what you're saying. And Miyazaki does go through significant lengths to enable that detachment.
In Dark Souls you're basically a wander exploring a long dead kingdom and the monsters(?) that inhabit it.
In Bloodborne
You're a foreigner caught up in a sequence of events that you cannot hope to possibly completly understand.
Both stories require the player to feel "lost" in order to tell the story. However, Bloodborne was a great opprotunity to stray from the Souls formula a bit, like more engaged and easier to do Co-op, and a tighter overall focus of your own individual character's story, and a more populated, less isolated, vibrant world. You aren't shambling through ruins, you're participating in the greatest calamity to befall this city since...well, since the last Hunt, and by definition of there being other Hunter's, you aren't necessarily alone.
The game starts this way, from a storytelling standpoint. but OH BOY does it not finish that way.
And it's not necessarily bad. I'm still happy with the story and experience I got. It's just that there was potential in this game to really seperate itself a little bit from the Dark Souls style narrative, or put a decent twist on it, but it falls back into old habits pretty hard.
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Indie Winterdie KräheRudi Hurzlmeier (German, b. 1952)Registered Userregular
Transporter, your theories could not be farther than my own
like, I appreciate reading your point of view
but from your conclusions I feel like I'm reading someone's description of playing bizarro-bloodborne
I think Bloodborne did a much, much better job establishing its setting and laying out its big picture story than any other Souls-alike I've played (i.e., Not Demon's Souls).
Previous games in the series basically hid all of their story behind item descriptions and opaque contextual assumptions about the world and things in it. This made it really compelling for people who are down to dig into those bits and stitch them together to get some sense of what's going on in the world at-large. But, for people who aren't willing to do that, or are unaware that it's expected of them, it resulted in a really disjointed, weird storyline that was a sideshow to the gameplay itself.
Bloodborne gives you more to work with off the bat, and while it definitely falls back into obfuscating things habitually near the end of the game, it still ended up satisfying me more than the previous games' stories.
Also; having that baseline narrative that sets you up in the world actually made me more interested in those little bits I ran into. It's like being able to look at the cover of the box as you assemble the puzzle, or something.
I feel like this is the one Souls game that has a story for my character, provided I'm not wrong about everything
You were looking for Paleblood, which to me seems to be the Moon Presence. At the beginning of the game, there is a note that says "seek the Paleblood to transcend the hunt." The true ending has you kill the Moon Presence and become a Great One. While you could save people and stop whatever machinations the other factions had in place, it was all stepping stones toward your own goal of becoming a god
I feel like this is the one Souls game that has a story for my character, provided I'm not wrong about everything
You were looking for Paleblood, which to me seems to be the Moon Presence. At the beginning of the game, there is a note that says "seek the Paleblood to transcend the hunt." The true ending has you kill the Moon Presence and become a Great One. While you could save people and stop whatever machinations the other factions had in place, it was all stepping stones toward your own goal of becoming a god
You're not wrong
That note at the beginning of the game is vague precisly for that reason. You can interpret it however you like and that would be your character's motivation. And there's three endings to back up whatever you choose. It's pretty cool, honestly.
I would've liked a few more signs of life from the city of Yharnam. Like apparently this was a place that was functioning as a real city not that long ago but it is about as viable as a crumbling medieval burg full of monsters and unstuck in time.
I would've liked a few more signs of life from the city of Yharnam. Like apparently this was a place that was functioning as a real city not that long ago but it is about as viable as a crumbling medieval burg full of monsters and unstuck in time.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, and the first "Late Afternoon" period would have been perfect for people scrambling to their homes and shutting their doors, and things like that, maybe running into a few people lingering taking it all in.
But I'm pretty sure the PS4 would literally explode if it had to fill Yharnam with a cities worth of people struggling to get to their homes.
I don't feel like they gave me much to go on at all in the start.
The opening just feels like random nonsense with some guy I'll never see again rambling about stuff and injecting a needle in me and then a wolf comes out of blood but then is on fire then these little monsters crawl over me and then I am wandering around killing monsters.
I would've liked a few more signs of life from the city of Yharnam. Like apparently this was a place that was functioning as a real city not that long ago but it is about as viable as a crumbling medieval burg full of monsters and unstuck in time.
I wholeheartedly agree with this, and the first "Late Afternoon" period would have been perfect for people scrambling to their homes and shutting their doors, and things like that, maybe running into a few people lingering taking it all in.
But I'm pretty sure the PS4 would literally explode if it had to fill Yharnam with a cities worth of people struggling to get to their homes.
I somehow feel like we've been seeing them the entire time.
I feel like they meant for the Survivor Hunt to be much more significant, something that would result in a secondary hub a la Majula, but doing so probably would have meant having more NPCs hanging around town, outside. Instead... there are two?
Also I am still having issues with the third layer of the Lower Pthumeru chalice dungeon, there is apparently supposed to be an elevator in the boss room to a fourth layer? But this is the situation in the room where I killed Rom:
A quick google search to try to help you found me this thread:
Seems you're bugged and will have to recreate the dungeon and do it again if you wanna try. The elevator apparently is behind a physical wall and not a fog one, and so the script to open it after the boss dies is more susceptible to bugging out.
I don't feel like they gave me much to go on at all in the start.
The opening just feels like random nonsense with some guy I'll never see again rambling about stuff and injecting a needle in me and then a wolf comes out of blood but then is on fire then these little monsters crawl over me and then I am wandering around killing monsters.
A lot of it is still contextual, just more obvious.
Seeing the city in chaos, talking to the people who've sealed themselves inside for the duration of the Hunt.
Seeing werewolves, then the crazed townspeople, then enemies at some stage between the two (specifically in the sewers, and on the way to Father G).
Discussion of clearly distinct but also interrelated factions (Hunters, the Church, everyone else, and later, Byrgenwerth, etc) gives you a sense of the various "sides" involved in what's going on in Yarnham.
I don't feel like they gave me much to go on at all in the start.
The opening just feels like random nonsense with some guy I'll never see again rambling about stuff and injecting a needle in me and then a wolf comes out of blood but then is on fire then these little monsters crawl over me and then I am wandering around killing monsters.
Yeah, it really assumes that you know the backstory leading up to Bloodborne, I don't know why they didn't flesh it out.
You're a foreigner from X city with (Character creation background) that's contracted the beast plague. You get a cryptic letter saying "Seek the paleblood in order to transcend the hunt" which is what leads you to Yharnam, since it's the home of Blood treatment.
So really the story is you, looking for the paleblood in order to cure yourself/others. No one, of course, knows whatever the fuck you're talking about until you meet the old wheelchair man in Iosefka's clinic who offers you some Yharnam blood to at least start you off and allievate your symptoms while you search the city.
Also I am still having issues with the third layer of the Lower Pthumeru chalice dungeon, there is apparently supposed to be an elevator in the boss room to a fourth layer? But this is the situation in the room where I killed Rom:
A quick google search to try to help you found me this thread:
Seems you're bugged and will have to recreate the dungeon and do it again if you wanna try. The elevator apparently is behind a physical wall and not a fog one, and so the script to open it after the boss dies is more susceptible to bugging out.
Bastards! Is there anything worthwhile down in those other Pthumerus or should I just carry on with Loran and Isz?!
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited April 2015
I have no prior experience with Souls games so as an outsider I find Bloodborne's story to be super vague (at least so far) and borderline non-existent. I also don't understand anyone that describes the environment as "vibrant" in any way. I can think of many antonyms to that word that would better describe Yarnham. Dank being one that comes to mind
I don't feel like they gave me much to go on at all in the start.
The opening just feels like random nonsense with some guy I'll never see again rambling about stuff and injecting a needle in me and then a wolf comes out of blood but then is on fire then these little monsters crawl over me and then I am wandering around killing monsters.
Yeah, it really assumes that you know the backstory leading up to Bloodborne, I don't know why they didn't flesh it out.
You're a foreigner from X city with (Character creation background) that's contracted the beast plague. You get a cryptic letter saying "Seek the paleblood in order to transcend the hunt" which is what leads you to Yharnam, since it's the home of Blood treatment.
So really the story is you, looking for the paleblood in order to cure yourself/others. No one, of course, knows whatever the fuck you're talking about until you meet the old wheelchair man in Iosefka's clinic who offers you some Yharnam blood to at least start you off and allievate your symptoms while you search the city.
Yeah okay and this is my problem with how these games tell their stories.
I didn't know the following things about this until I read your post just now:
That I had some sort of disease before even getting there.
That my reason for coming was finding a cure. I assumed I was just a monster hunter.
That this pale blood is supposed to be a cure. "Transcend the hunt" doesn't really translate to "find a cure" in my mind.
That the letter in the building was mine at all in the first place.
Also I am still having issues with the third layer of the Lower Pthumeru chalice dungeon, there is apparently supposed to be an elevator in the boss room to a fourth layer? But this is the situation in the room where I killed Rom:
A quick google search to try to help you found me this thread:
Seems you're bugged and will have to recreate the dungeon and do it again if you wanna try. The elevator apparently is behind a physical wall and not a fog one, and so the script to open it after the boss dies is more susceptible to bugging out.
Bastards! Is there anything worthwhile down in those other Pthumerus or should I just carry on with Loran and Isz?!
The 'final boss' of the chalice dungeons is down two more levels in Pthumeru - if you want the trophy, you'll need to keep going.
I have no prior experience with Souls games so as an outsider I find Bloodborne's story to be super vague (at least so far) and borderline non-existent. I also don't understand anyone that describes the environment as "vibrant" in any way. I can think of many antonyms to that word that would better describe Yarnham. Dank being one that congress to mind
The stories are much like the game mechanics in that it take a whole community piecing together little details to form a cohesive narrative. Its weird but can actually make for some really compelling stuff, there's a surprising amount there but you have to dig deep. I kind of love it just in how unique it is
Just as an aside, though I know it was linked in probably both these Bloodborne threads, that recent interview with Miyazaki where he talks about changing careers at age 29 and how he took over the failing Demon's Souls development and what not has an excerpt in it that pretty much tells you exactly what you need to know about why the Souls games tell their stories the way they do:
When Hidetaka Miyazaki was a child, he was a keen reader, though not a talented one. Often he’d reach passages of text he couldn’t understand, and so would allow his imagination to fill in the blanks, using the accompanying illustrations. In this way, he felt he was co-writing the fiction alongside its original author. The thrill of this process never left him – and it is very much there in his arcane and fascinating video games, the latest of which, Bloodborne, has just been released to wild acclaim.
Miyazaki was a bad reader but loved it. He couldn't understand books he read so he would let his imagination fill in the blanks using illustrations to feel like he was co-writing the fiction. Sound familiar?
Also I am still having issues with the third layer of the Lower Pthumeru chalice dungeon, there is apparently supposed to be an elevator in the boss room to a fourth layer? But this is the situation in the room where I killed Rom:
A quick google search to try to help you found me this thread:
Seems you're bugged and will have to recreate the dungeon and do it again if you wanna try. The elevator apparently is behind a physical wall and not a fog one, and so the script to open it after the boss dies is more susceptible to bugging out.
Bastards! Is there anything worthwhile down in those other Pthumerus or should I just carry on with Loran and Isz?!
The 'final boss' of the chalice dungeons is down two more levels in Pthumeru - if you want the trophy, you'll need to keep going.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww well that shit ain't about to happen
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
So I was watching ENB's alt run last night(General late game spoilers)
And apparently Gehrman has a dialogue while he's sleeping along the lines of, "How much longer is going to be Laurence? I'm an old man now, I can't keep doing this forever."
It could be anything but I'm still holding out for Moon Presence being Laurence even though the beast skull in the Grand Cathedral probably was his.
I'm not sure. Related to Laurence, these things i'm not sure about:
"Heir to the ritual of blood, purveyor of ministration. Place your hand on the altar's sacred covering, and inscribe Master Laurence's adage upon your flesh."
This note is before the grand cathedral. So is touching the altar after Amelia "inscribing Master Laurence's adage upon your flesh?" If so, what is that adage? Is it fear the old blood? Because I thought that was more Willem's adage, that Laurence presumably ignored when he split from him.
"The nameless moon presence beckoned by Laurence and his associates. Paleblood."
This note from the Mensis college lecture building seems to indicate that Laurence and his associates at the college of Mensis beckoned the moon presence.
"Three third cords."
This note from the 2nd floor of the lecture building though, I wonder about. Is it possible that Laurence ate 3 cords and did the ending we did, becoming a new moon presence? And he's now working to keep the hunter's dream alive and against the nightmare ritual great ones? This seems a stretch, because Gehrman is still trapped in the dream so obviously Laurence didn't kill him and then kill the moon presence.
Maybe Laurence used the cords and defeated the moon presence before the whole hunter's dream/Gehrman thing started, and he's responsible for starting it in the first place.
I've gotten that sleeping Gehrman dialogue too, and I'm really interested to know what it really means. The how much longer thing and can't do this forever sounds like he's talking to the moon presence, but we also know that it's not like from Gehrman's point of view there's an end in sight. If we do what he wants us to, we just let him kill us and he's still stuck in the dream creating a new headstone and waiting for the next hunter to come along and do it again.
Also, I think I just had an epiphany regarding Rom, but still more questions:
This whole time I've been thinking that Rom was "on our side," and defeating him to drop the rituals/illusions was something he wanted. But now, I'm thinking what's actually the case is that Rom has trapped Willem at Byrgenwerth with him and is on the side of the great ones doing the Mensis Ritual. He's working to keep the Nightmare Ritual hidden so nobody can stop it. Hell, maybe Laurence is the one that set it up so you'd be able to access the path to Byrgenwerth if you could get to that altar. And doesn't it seem like Willem is now a nearly dead zombie, with the only thing he can still do is point you at the thing you need to destroy?
Check these lore notes:
"The Byrgenwerth spider hides all manner of rituals, and keeps our lost master from us. A terrible shame. It makes my head shudder uncontrollably."
This note from the cathedral ward I think is Laurence or somebody referring to Willem as the lost master. They still respected Willem despite him seeking evolution through insight instead of blood. I think the "all manner of rituals" is the spider(Rom) keeping the nightmare ritual hidden.
"A watchman of Byrgenwerth guards the gate with a password, the sacred adage of the Grand Cathedral."
So the sacred adage of the Grand Cathedral is still "fear the old blood." Makes me think that Laurence was using the blood, but in a more measured way to try to heal people, not for experimentation the way the Choir and Mensis were.
"The spider hides all manner of rituals, certain to reveal nothing, for true enlightenment need not be shared."
Another mention of Rom hiding rituals. But this one to me seems to reveal more about Rom's intentions. She's hiding the rituals because she doesn't want to share true enlightenment. She wants to keep everybody from seeing the nightmare ritual take place, so that it can just happen and a new great one will be born.
Also, are the college of Mensis and the Choir related in some way? Both of them are secreted away, but at first glance it seems they're after 2 different things. The choir is interested in the cosmos and mensis is interested in the nightmare ritual. Mensis is interested in keeping everything hidden that could be used to stop the ritual. Presumably the "hunter" between you and the key to Willem/Rom is from Mensis, but she has access to one of the arcane tools. However, so does Micolash. They keep the Unseen Village hidden behind a Rom ritual. But the key to the upper cathedral ward where the orphanage is and where they keep Ebrietas is in the unseen village. Why?
Also, the tonsil stone which is what you need to be taken to the Mensis lecture hall prior to stopping Rom's ritual says
"A latticed, deformed rock, or perhaps a meteorite."
Certainly seems cosmic, but Patches the Spider gives it to you so that you'll be "a lamb for his god" Amygdala. Why do the lesser Amygdalas let you live if you have a piece of meteorite?
Laurence
They both say, in unison, "Fear the Old Blood". I think that scene is to re-enforce that even though he's splitting from them, he will absolutly keep his master's words in his heart and won't fuck with the blood too deeply.
My guess is that Willem and Laurence found the blood to have healing properties, and Willem thought to keep it within the school, while Laurence thought to share it with the citizens who were being affected with the Beast Plague, and establishes the healing church.
Overall setting super duper spoilers
I think at this point, I'm sure of a few of things.
1. Hunter's, and by extention, the beast plague, existed prior to the dream's creation. It's said that the Hunter's once had firm connections, and in fact, where largly created by the Church, but that was "forgotten".
2. Laurence established the Healing Church, and that he, along with his era of Hunters(Which included Gehrman of course) summoned the "Moon Presence", with heavy hints that he, is, indeed the Moon Presence. Why is up for discussion, but it's not unlikley that they discovered the source of the beastplauge, and took measures.
3. I am 99% sure that Odeon is the big bad motherfucker behind the scenes, and is in fact the One Reborn, and the previous inhabitant of the moon. He is without a doubt the one that drove the church insane after Laurence's departure at the very least.
And lastly, the Doll(also big spoilers)
The doll really ties most of my theroies about Laurence together.
The Doll's clothing descriptions describes it's designs as so elaborate it's bordering on madness. We get our three umbilical cords from the Abandoned Workshop(And it's old and shriviled), Fake Iosefka, and Adrianne, who are both pregnant with Great Ones. However, there are other, older Great Ones in Yharnam. 3, to be precise. Rom, Ammy, and Ebritas, daughter of the Cosmos. When a great one is born it sheds it's umbilical cord. And we find one, old one, in the Abandoned Workshop in the real world, on an altar. Which is significant, verily so. Because that means a great one was born there, and shed it's cord, and that it was venerated by the Workshop Hunter's of the time.
Lastly, and more importantly, there is only one Gravestone that is present in both the Hunter's Dream, and the Abandoned workshop.
Occasionally, the doll occasionally moves there, to pray. This is super, SUPER IMPORTANT.
The doll herself states that she was created by man, and that she loves man because to her, men are her creators, her GOD, so of course she loves us, as we love our god's. So why would she pray to a specific gravestone unless it was a man of great siginficance, perhaps even, the person who created her?
Now, normally, this would be enough evidence to say that the grave that she prays to was, more than likley, the man who created her. So If I'm saying that man is Laurence, who created her as his insight was raised as he was eating umbilical cords, well, he's dead. So he can't be the Moon Presence.
Only, they don't erect graves JUST because you died. We know that because we have our own grave at the end of the game if we let Gehrman kill us and seperate us from the dream. The grave might simply represent seperation. There's a good chance Elieen's, Djura's, and Gascoine and Henryck's graves are all there.
Lastly, the name, "Moon Presence". It's nature is largly a mystery, and, strangly, it seems like a beneficial entity, unlike the other Great Ones, who are often mysterious, or in Ammy and Odeon's cases, just assholes. However Moon Presence is a distinctly positive force in the world of Yharnam. Well, maybe Postitive isn't the right word. Anti-Great One, would be more precise.
However, what seperates it from the other great ones, is, it's name.
Rom The Vacuous Spider.
Mergo's Wet Nurse.
Ebritas, the Daughter of the Cosmos.
Ammy, the huge asshole spider guy(MAY have made that one up).
They all have their own, very distinct names. However, Moon Presence, is literally "Moon Presence". As in, "The thing that's in the moon".
There is no sense of self or pride, or even identity, in it's name. It simply is there. For a purpose? For a reason? It dosen't even take a name, like it has no interest in being a Great One, or being anything, for that matter, other than fufilling it's purpose.
Lastly, Gehrnam speaks of Laurence, TO Laurence, in the present tense. He could just be crazy and old from his time in the Dream, but the fact that he dosen't venerate anything, yet prays and speaks to the moon and it grants him power, is pretty heavily hinting that whoever the Moon Presence is, it knows Gehrman, and Gehrman knows it.
The only person who could fill all of this criteria is Laurence.
Last side theory
Laurence's actual Great One name is Kosm. THINK ABOUT IT
I'm right there with you on a lot of stuff, Oedon is the worst great one presence and the source of the bad blood, etc.
About that last point though, even if L = moon presence, I dunno about his name being Kos/Kosm, if only because Micolash also talks about how he wants Kosm to grant him eyes the way it did for Rom. And I think even if L = moon presence, he became it after Rom was created.
Speaking of that, I don't know the significance, but I believe Rom was a human made great one, rather than one that was discovered. I think Willem, Laurence, Rom, and Gehrman were all at Byrgenwerth to begin with.
I saw a theory earlier that floated that Rom chose to become a great one through evolution, Willem became what he did, half evolved and trapped by Rom, Gehrman became the first hunter to try to stop the beasts before they got out of control, and Laurence became Micolash.
I don't buy that, because why would his name need to be changed among other questions. I think Micolash was just one of many dudes studying at Byrgenwerth with Mensis Cages on their heads, and he's just one who happened to stay alive and go full mad man with a close connection to the great ones rather than die like all the other ones scattered about the nightmare of Mensis.
I find the piece of dialogue from Alfred about a scholar betraying Willem and taking vileblood to Cainhurst extremely interesting too, because my first thought was what if that was Laurence? That's 2 mentions of betrayal of Willem. But as far as we know Laurence is not at Cainhurst, we don't know when Cainhurst became a ghost town, there's an immortal vampire queen there trying to be the one who births a great one, etc. Its' all very confusing.
Side note, but your "all great ones have title names except Amygdala and moon presence" theory isn't exactly right either. The mother brain, who gets no name at all or a title is also a great one.
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I have no prior experience with Souls games so as an outsider I find Bloodborne's story to be super vague (at least so far) and borderline non-existent. I also don't understand anyone that describes the environment as "vibrant" in any way. I can think of many antonyms to that word that would better describe Yarnham. Dank being one that congress to mind
The stories are much like the game mechanics in that it take a whole community piecing together little details to form a cohesive narrative. Its weird but can actually make for some really compelling stuff, there's a surprising amount there but you have to dig deep. I kind of love it just in how unique it is
Yeah I can kind of see how that can come together eventually but where I am right now in the game (at I believe the end of the Forbidden Forest right before the boss) all the clues are still very vague, a bit of a chore to find when not easy to overlook, and the story gets overshadowed by how crushingly difficult the game can be.
"Ah-hah, you must be the new hunter. Welcome to the Hunter's Dream. This will be your home, for now. I am... Gehrman, friend to you hunters. You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it..."
"This was once a safe haven for hunters. A workshop where hunters used blood to enhance their weapons and flesh. We don't have as many tools as we once did, but... You're welcome to use whatever you find. (Whispers) ...Even the doll, should it please you..."
It's weird how he hesitates before saying his name. Like he was thinking about which name to use. I dunno, just odd. It's also odd that he suggests you can molest the doll, though I'll chalk that up to them just wanting to let you know that it's something you can use soon.
After killing Father Gascoigne:
"The moon is close. It will be a long hunt tonight. If the beasts loom large, and threaten to crush your spirits, seek the Holy Chalice. As every hunter before you has. A Holy Chalice will reveal the tomb of the gods, ...where hunters partake in communion..."
"Most of the Holy Chalices lie deep within the tomb of the gods. And the few that found their way to the surface... Were lost again in the hands of men. But if the old hunter tales remain true... ...one of the Holy Chalices is worshipped in the valley hamlet. Yet the town is in disarray... It was burned and abandoned, for fear of the scourge, home now only to beasts. The perfect place for a hunter, wouldn't you say?"
Why is he on about chalices so much? Going to Old Yharnam and getting the chalice from the blood starved beast is not even necessary to progress the story. Is he saying you have to get a chalice because every hunter has? Because if so, it's weird because 0 of the chalices are required to get. They come from BSB, Amygdala, and Ebrietas. It sounds like he's saying you have to go into the tombs(chalice dungeons) for hunter communion, but that's just not true.
Outside his house if one has 15 Insight or above and Amelia is met:
"Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, or little use now, I'm afraid..."
This is the dialogue we've been discussing. We've no idea what it means.
Outside his house after defeating Rom, The Vacuous Spider:
"Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... "
Now this one is really interesting. It lets us know that he considers Willem a master still, and he wants to be released of being forced by the moon presence into being a hunter helper. Also, where the F is Gehrman all the time when he's not in the hunter's dream? We know he's stuck there in the dream helping hunters, but where is he when you talk to him and he disappears or you just attack him and he disappears until the next time he pops up for story time?
Maybe Gehrman's real body is dead as fuck and that's his grave in the abandoned workshop, but his mind is being kept in the hunter's dream by the moon presence? Maybe he's the one who created the doll. Maybe Gherman had a daughter who the doll belonged to, the daughter birthed a great one(umbilical cord left in abandoned workshop) that became the moon presence, and that's why the moon presence dreams the hunter's dream as modelled after the abandoned workshop, and the doll is given life to keep Gehrman from being so lonely?
I'm just making shit up and pulling from theories I've seen floated, but it's fun.
More than any other souls game I thought my character had a story.
Full game spoilers.
It was a dream logic story. You wake up somewhere for vague reasons, and you're told 'you're a hunter now'. And like a dream, you're like 'I guess I am a hunter now'.
And at first it's fairly cogent. You're a hunter and you're killing beasts. You try and help people out but nothing seems to go right. the crow hunter dies. There's an old man who seems kind of nice but he pretty quickly stops giving you any advice. There's a place you can send people that seems kind of safe but even when they get there it seems like they're just getting more and more insane. There's a nice doctor but for some reason they become evil.
But there's still an element of reality. You're a beast hunter, and you're doing things you maybe don't want to do, but there's still sanity in places. the Executioner guy seems legit. There's a sane guy on top of a tower who tries to kill you but he at least has explained his reasons for doing so. You can travel to a place called the hunters dream but maybe that's just a figure of speech?
Then you find the abandoned workshop. This makes it clear that the Doll and the workshop are explicitly Not Real, and if workshop is Definitely Not Real then maybe other things are Not Real too?
So you're sort of descending into some type of madness, the dream is becoming more of a nightmare. Then you kill Amelia. You don't want to kill her, but like a nightmare an apparently nice person turns into a monster and you have to kill her. Now things are starting to get bad. People who were talking to you before are now screaming and gibbering. You go into the forgotten woods, and it's totally a nightmare world. An absurd amount of snakes. No comfort, nothing nice.
Then you face Rom. The moment before you fight him seems like a moment of understanding, but there's no way to progress. You kill him. Now you're the only one left. There's no sane people left now. The nightmare is complete, even the people in the chapel are completely bonkers now. Every door is silent, every door is madness. There are horrible creatures here.
At this point you get the feeling that the nightmare isn't really your own, that there are some horrible forces invading your nightmare. The amygdala are now visible, and you even go fight one. The 'force invading your nightmare' becomes literal with The One Reborn.
Now you're going into other nightmares. The lecture hall, the nightmare frontier, the nightmare of mensis, Yarnham itself. What's real? they're all horrible places seemingly created for some horrible unknown purpose. The constrcut starts to break down in the Nightmare of Mensis. Things are getting merged together, pigs with a thousand eyes, dogs with vulture heads. Endless corridors. It doesn't make sense. But you press on and you kill a baby I think? It was horrible but you did it.
Then you return to the dream and it's dawn. You're starting to wake up, you hope. Gerhman offers you a way out. He seems like he's telling the truth but maybe he's the evil presence responsible for all the madness? You don't know, but you want out of this horrible place. He kills you and you wake up in an abandoned city.
Anyway that's how I experienced the story on my first play through with minimal foruming. Certainly more directly engaged than previous souls games.
I have no prior experience with Souls games so as an outsider I find Bloodborne's story to be super vague (at least so far) and borderline non-existent. I also don't understand anyone that describes the environment as "vibrant" in any way. I can think of many antonyms to that word that would better describe Yarnham. Dank being one that congress to mind
The stories are much like the game mechanics in that it take a whole community piecing together little details to form a cohesive narrative. Its weird but can actually make for some really compelling stuff, there's a surprising amount there but you have to dig deep. I kind of love it just in how unique it is
Yeah I can kind of see how that can come together eventually but where I am right now in the game (at I believe the end of the Forbidden Forest right before the boss) all the clues are still very vague, a bit of a chore to find when not easy to overlook, and the story gets overshadowed by how crushingly difficult the game can be.
The area after the Forest, Byrgenwerth is where shit starts popping off, plot wise.
"Ah-hah, you must be the new hunter. Welcome to the Hunter's Dream. This will be your home, for now. I am... Gehrman, friend to you hunters. You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it..."
"This was once a safe haven for hunters. A workshop where hunters used blood to enhance their weapons and flesh. We don't have as many tools as we once did, but... You're welcome to use whatever you find. (Whispers) ...Even the doll, should it please you..."
It's weird how he hesitates before saying his name. Like he was thinking about which name to use. I dunno, just odd. It's also odd that he suggests you can molest the doll, though I'll chalk that up to them just wanting to let you know that it's something you can use soon.
After killing Father Gascoigne:
"The moon is close. It will be a long hunt tonight. If the beasts loom large, and threaten to crush your spirits, seek the Holy Chalice. As every hunter before you has. A Holy Chalice will reveal the tomb of the gods, ...where hunters partake in communion..."
"Most of the Holy Chalices lie deep within the tomb of the gods. And the few that found their way to the surface... Were lost again in the hands of men. But if the old hunter tales remain true... ...one of the Holy Chalices is worshipped in the valley hamlet. Yet the town is in disarray... It was burned and abandoned, for fear of the scourge, home now only to beasts. The perfect place for a hunter, wouldn't you say?"
Why is he on about chalices so much? Going to Old Yharnam and getting the chalice from the blood starved beast is not even necessary to progress the story. Is he saying you have to get a chalice because every hunter has? Because if so, it's weird because 0 of the chalices are required to get. They come from BSB, Amygdala, and Ebrietas. It sounds like he's saying you have to go into the tombs(chalice dungeons) for hunter communion, but that's just not true.
Outside his house if one has 15 Insight or above and Amelia is met:
"Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, or little use now, I'm afraid..."
This is the dialogue we've been discussing. We've no idea what it means.
Outside his house after defeating Rom, The Vacuous Spider:
"Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... "
Now this one is really interesting. It lets us know that he considers Willem a master still, and he wants to be released of being forced by the moon presence into being a hunter helper. Also, where the F is Gehrman all the time when he's not in the hunter's dream? We know he's stuck there in the dream helping hunters, but where is he when you talk to him and he disappears or you just attack him and he disappears until the next time he pops up for story time?
Maybe Gehrman's real body is dead as fuck and that's his grave in the abandoned workshop, but his mind is being kept in the hunter's dream by the moon presence? Maybe he's the one who created the doll. Maybe Gherman had a daughter who the doll belonged to, the daughter birthed a great one(umbilical cord left in abandoned workshop) that became the moon presence, and that's why the moon presence dreams the hunter's dream as modelled after the abandoned workshop, and the doll is given life to keep Gehrman from being so lonely?
I'm just making shit up and pulling from theories I've seen floated, but it's fun.
It's all good stuff really!(Super spoilers)
The Doll is so fuckin mysterious even with everything we know.
Like, for one thing, the Doll isn't real. At least, the doll in the dream isn't.
Her real body is still inside the Abandoned Workshop completly shut down and labled (An abandoned doll). She has the ability to manipulate blood echoes which is straight up some high level great one tomfoolery.
So clearly the Doll is tied with the holder of the Dream, the Moon Presence, otherwise, why would it even be there?
And then you get the endings and HOLY SHIT she recognizes you when you're a little baby great one WHY IS SHE STILL MOVING WHY DOES THE DREAM EVEN STILL EXIST AAAHHHH.
"Ah-hah, you must be the new hunter. Welcome to the Hunter's Dream. This will be your home, for now. I am... Gehrman, friend to you hunters. You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it..."
"This was once a safe haven for hunters. A workshop where hunters used blood to enhance their weapons and flesh. We don't have as many tools as we once did, but... You're welcome to use whatever you find. (Whispers) ...Even the doll, should it please you..."
It's weird how he hesitates before saying his name. Like he was thinking about which name to use. I dunno, just odd. It's also odd that he suggests you can molest the doll, though I'll chalk that up to them just wanting to let you know that it's something you can use soon.
After killing Father Gascoigne:
"The moon is close. It will be a long hunt tonight. If the beasts loom large, and threaten to crush your spirits, seek the Holy Chalice. As every hunter before you has. A Holy Chalice will reveal the tomb of the gods, ...where hunters partake in communion..."
"Most of the Holy Chalices lie deep within the tomb of the gods. And the few that found their way to the surface... Were lost again in the hands of men. But if the old hunter tales remain true... ...one of the Holy Chalices is worshipped in the valley hamlet. Yet the town is in disarray... It was burned and abandoned, for fear of the scourge, home now only to beasts. The perfect place for a hunter, wouldn't you say?"
Why is he on about chalices so much? Going to Old Yharnam and getting the chalice from the blood starved beast is not even necessary to progress the story. Is he saying you have to get a chalice because every hunter has? Because if so, it's weird because 0 of the chalices are required to get. They come from BSB, Amygdala, and Ebrietas. It sounds like he's saying you have to go into the tombs(chalice dungeons) for hunter communion, but that's just not true.
Outside his house if one has 15 Insight or above and Amelia is met:
"Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, or little use now, I'm afraid..."
This is the dialogue we've been discussing. We've no idea what it means.
Outside his house after defeating Rom, The Vacuous Spider:
"Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... "
Now this one is really interesting. It lets us know that he considers Willem a master still, and he wants to be released of being forced by the moon presence into being a hunter helper. Also, where the F is Gehrman all the time when he's not in the hunter's dream? We know he's stuck there in the dream helping hunters, but where is he when you talk to him and he disappears or you just attack him and he disappears until the next time he pops up for story time?
Maybe Gehrman's real body is dead as fuck and that's his grave in the abandoned workshop, but his mind is being kept in the hunter's dream by the moon presence? Maybe he's the one who created the doll. Maybe Gherman had a daughter who the doll belonged to, the daughter birthed a great one(umbilical cord left in abandoned workshop) that became the moon presence, and that's why the moon presence dreams the hunter's dream as modelled after the abandoned workshop, and the doll is given life to keep Gehrman from being so lonely?
I'm just making shit up and pulling from theories I've seen floated, but it's fun.
It's all good stuff really!(Super spoilers)
The Doll is so fuckin mysterious even with everything we know.
Like, for one thing, the Doll isn't real. At least, the doll in the dream isn't.
Her real body is still inside the Abandoned Workshop completly shut down and labled (An abandoned doll). She has the ability to manipulate blood echoes which is straight up some high level great one tomfoolery.
So clearly the Doll is tied with the holder of the Dream, the Moon Presence, otherwise, why would it even be there?
And then you get the endings and HOLY SHIT she recognizes you when you're a little baby great one WHY IS SHE STILL MOVING WHY DOES THE DREAM EVEN STILL EXIST AAAHHHH.
I have no prior experience with Souls games so as an outsider I find Bloodborne's story to be super vague (at least so far) and borderline non-existent. I also don't understand anyone that describes the environment as "vibrant" in any way. I can think of many antonyms to that word that would better describe Yarnham. Dank being one that comes to mind
This is totally unrelated to Bloodborne, but reading your post, while also having the context of the word dank being co-opted by internet memes and pot made me laugh uncontrollably, especially with your avatar of Brian Regan. Like, i'm just imagining somebody describing Yharnam to their buddy and just being like "Yeah man, this world is mad dank."
Watching enb's video where he attacks the crow Hunter
That dialogue has some crazy implications
What specifically?
This is the dialogue
(Laughter) "Few hunters can resist the intoxication of the hunt. Look at you, just the same as all the rest..."
"The hunters must die... The nightmare must end..."
"Only I can stop this madness!" (continued laughter)
When Eileen has been significantly injured, "The beasts cannot be stopped. What good are hunters now?"
(Yelling) "Your blood is mine! A hunter's blood for me! Your punishment is death! Death to hunters!"
"Enough of this terrible dream!" (laughter)
When Eileen is slain, "...Ahh... you monsters..."
"All hunters must die!" (laughter as her body fades)
I don't understand wtf is going on having read that though. I thought she was just hunting hunters to try to give them sky burials. But this the nightmare must end, enough of this terrible dream stuff is really interesting. And why does she now seem to want to kill all hunters?
Only I can stop this madness? Does she think if all hunters die then the cycle will end perhaps? When she's talking about the nightmare ending or enough of this terrible dream, is she just gone crazy and talking about the world itself being a nightmare, or are we getting back into "the whole game is a dream" territory, which I still don't buy.
Alright so is the messenger vendor I need to buy the next hintertomb chalic from really in a random location of a random layer of the lower hintertomb dungeon? Because I have zero goddamn interest in rubbing my face on every corner of this dank basement until I find a glowing birdbath
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Laurence
My guess is that Willem and Laurence found the blood to have healing properties, and Willem thought to keep it within the school, while Laurence thought to share it with the citizens who were being affected with the Beast Plague, and establishes the healing church.
Overall setting super duper spoilers
1. Hunter's, and by extention, the beast plague, existed prior to the dream's creation. It's said that the Hunter's once had firm connections, and in fact, where largly created by the Church, but that was "forgotten".
2. Laurence established the Healing Church, and that he, along with his era of Hunters(Which included Gehrman of course) summoned the "Moon Presence", with heavy hints that he, is, indeed the Moon Presence. Why is up for discussion, but it's not unlikley that they discovered the source of the beastplauge, and took measures.
3. I am 99% sure that Odeon is the big bad motherfucker behind the scenes, and is in fact the One Reborn, and the previous inhabitant of the moon. He is without a doubt the one that drove the church insane after Laurence's departure at the very least.
And lastly, the Doll(also big spoilers)
The Doll's clothing descriptions describes it's designs as so elaborate it's bordering on madness. We get our three umbilical cords from the Abandoned Workshop(And it's old and shriviled), Fake Iosefka, and Adrianne, who are both pregnant with Great Ones. However, there are other, older Great Ones in Yharnam. 3, to be precise. Rom, Ammy, and Ebritas, daughter of the Cosmos. When a great one is born it sheds it's umbilical cord. And we find one, old one, in the Abandoned Workshop in the real world, on an altar. Which is significant, verily so. Because that means a great one was born there, and shed it's cord, and that it was venerated by the Workshop Hunter's of the time.
Lastly, and more importantly, there is only one Gravestone that is present in both the Hunter's Dream, and the Abandoned workshop.
Occasionally, the doll occasionally moves there, to pray. This is super, SUPER IMPORTANT.
The doll herself states that she was created by man, and that she loves man because to her, men are her creators, her GOD, so of course she loves us, as we love our god's. So why would she pray to a specific gravestone unless it was a man of great siginficance, perhaps even, the person who created her?
Now, normally, this would be enough evidence to say that the grave that she prays to was, more than likley, the man who created her. So If I'm saying that man is Laurence, who created her as his insight was raised as he was eating umbilical cords, well, he's dead. So he can't be the Moon Presence.
Only, they don't erect graves JUST because you died. We know that because we have our own grave at the end of the game if we let Gehrman kill us and seperate us from the dream. The grave might simply represent seperation. There's a good chance Elieen's, Djura's, and Gascoine and Henryck's graves are all there.
Lastly, the name, "Moon Presence". It's nature is largly a mystery, and, strangly, it seems like a beneficial entity, unlike the other Great Ones, who are often mysterious, or in Ammy and Odeon's cases, just assholes. However Moon Presence is a distinctly positive force in the world of Yharnam. Well, maybe Postitive isn't the right word. Anti-Great One, would be more precise.
However, what seperates it from the other great ones, is, it's name.
Rom The Vacuous Spider.
Mergo's Wet Nurse.
Ebritas, the Daughter of the Cosmos.
Ammy, the huge asshole spider guy(MAY have made that one up).
They all have their own, very distinct names. However, Moon Presence, is literally "Moon Presence". As in, "The thing that's in the moon".
There is no sense of self or pride, or even identity, in it's name. It simply is there. For a purpose? For a reason? It dosen't even take a name, like it has no interest in being a Great One, or being anything, for that matter, other than fufilling it's purpose.
Lastly, Gehrnam speaks of Laurence, TO Laurence, in the present tense. He could just be crazy and old from his time in the Dream, but the fact that he dosen't venerate anything, yet prays and speaks to the moon and it grants him power, is pretty heavily hinting that whoever the Moon Presence is, it knows Gehrman, and Gehrman knows it.
The only person who could fill all of this criteria is Laurence.
Last side theory
I mean the actual story of my character, from the start of the game to the end of it.
It feels like the vast majority of the effort in writing is put into backstory and lore, while the actual stories of the main games are just kinda "hey wander from place to place and kill things because...reasons. Learn about the cooler backstory along the way I guess?"
It's too detached for me.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I see what you're saying. And Miyazaki does go through significant lengths to enable that detachment.
In Dark Souls you're basically a wander exploring a long dead kingdom and the monsters(?) that inhabit it.
In Bloodborne
Both stories require the player to feel "lost" in order to tell the story. However, Bloodborne was a great opprotunity to stray from the Souls formula a bit, like more engaged and easier to do Co-op, and a tighter overall focus of your own individual character's story, and a more populated, less isolated, vibrant world. You aren't shambling through ruins, you're participating in the greatest calamity to befall this city since...well, since the last Hunt, and by definition of there being other Hunter's, you aren't necessarily alone.
The game starts this way, from a storytelling standpoint. but OH BOY does it not finish that way.
And it's not necessarily bad. I'm still happy with the story and experience I got. It's just that there was potential in this game to really seperate itself a little bit from the Dark Souls style narrative, or put a decent twist on it, but it falls back into old habits pretty hard.
like, I appreciate reading your point of view
but from your conclusions I feel like I'm reading someone's description of playing bizarro-bloodborne
Previous games in the series basically hid all of their story behind item descriptions and opaque contextual assumptions about the world and things in it. This made it really compelling for people who are down to dig into those bits and stitch them together to get some sense of what's going on in the world at-large. But, for people who aren't willing to do that, or are unaware that it's expected of them, it resulted in a really disjointed, weird storyline that was a sideshow to the gameplay itself.
Bloodborne gives you more to work with off the bat, and while it definitely falls back into obfuscating things habitually near the end of the game, it still ended up satisfying me more than the previous games' stories.
Also; having that baseline narrative that sets you up in the world actually made me more interested in those little bits I ran into. It's like being able to look at the cover of the box as you assemble the puzzle, or something.
You're not wrong
I wholeheartedly agree with this, and the first "Late Afternoon" period would have been perfect for people scrambling to their homes and shutting their doors, and things like that, maybe running into a few people lingering taking it all in.
But I'm pretty sure the PS4 would literally explode if it had to fill Yharnam with a cities worth of people struggling to get to their homes.
The opening just feels like random nonsense with some guy I'll never see again rambling about stuff and injecting a needle in me and then a wolf comes out of blood but then is on fire then these little monsters crawl over me and then I am wandering around killing monsters.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
I somehow feel like we've been seeing them the entire time.
A quick google search to try to help you found me this thread:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/805577-bloodborne/71520569
Seems you're bugged and will have to recreate the dungeon and do it again if you wanna try. The elevator apparently is behind a physical wall and not a fog one, and so the script to open it after the boss dies is more susceptible to bugging out.
A lot of it is still contextual, just more obvious.
Seeing the city in chaos, talking to the people who've sealed themselves inside for the duration of the Hunt.
Seeing werewolves, then the crazed townspeople, then enemies at some stage between the two (specifically in the sewers, and on the way to Father G).
Discussion of clearly distinct but also interrelated factions (Hunters, the Church, everyone else, and later, Byrgenwerth, etc) gives you a sense of the various "sides" involved in what's going on in Yarnham.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
Yeah, it really assumes that you know the backstory leading up to Bloodborne, I don't know why they didn't flesh it out.
So really the story is you, looking for the paleblood in order to cure yourself/others. No one, of course, knows whatever the fuck you're talking about until you meet the old wheelchair man in Iosefka's clinic who offers you some Yharnam blood to at least start you off and allievate your symptoms while you search the city.
Bastards! Is there anything worthwhile down in those other Pthumerus or should I just carry on with Loran and Isz?!
Yeah okay and this is my problem with how these games tell their stories.
I didn't know the following things about this until I read your post just now:
That my reason for coming was finding a cure. I assumed I was just a monster hunter.
That this pale blood is supposed to be a cure. "Transcend the hunt" doesn't really translate to "find a cure" in my mind.
That the letter in the building was mine at all in the first place.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
The 'final boss' of the chalice dungeons is down two more levels in Pthumeru - if you want the trophy, you'll need to keep going.
The stories are much like the game mechanics in that it take a whole community piecing together little details to form a cohesive narrative. Its weird but can actually make for some really compelling stuff, there's a surprising amount there but you have to dig deep. I kind of love it just in how unique it is
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
Miyazaki was a bad reader but loved it. He couldn't understand books he read so he would let his imagination fill in the blanks using illustrations to feel like he was co-writing the fiction. Sound familiar?
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwww well that shit ain't about to happen
Mobile keyboard
About that last point though, even if L = moon presence, I dunno about his name being Kos/Kosm, if only because Micolash also talks about how he wants Kosm to grant him eyes the way it did for Rom. And I think even if L = moon presence, he became it after Rom was created.
Speaking of that, I don't know the significance, but I believe Rom was a human made great one, rather than one that was discovered. I think Willem, Laurence, Rom, and Gehrman were all at Byrgenwerth to begin with.
I saw a theory earlier that floated that Rom chose to become a great one through evolution, Willem became what he did, half evolved and trapped by Rom, Gehrman became the first hunter to try to stop the beasts before they got out of control, and Laurence became Micolash.
I don't buy that, because why would his name need to be changed among other questions. I think Micolash was just one of many dudes studying at Byrgenwerth with Mensis Cages on their heads, and he's just one who happened to stay alive and go full mad man with a close connection to the great ones rather than die like all the other ones scattered about the nightmare of Mensis.
I find the piece of dialogue from Alfred about a scholar betraying Willem and taking vileblood to Cainhurst extremely interesting too, because my first thought was what if that was Laurence? That's 2 mentions of betrayal of Willem. But as far as we know Laurence is not at Cainhurst, we don't know when Cainhurst became a ghost town, there's an immortal vampire queen there trying to be the one who births a great one, etc. Its' all very confusing.
Side note, but your "all great ones have title names except Amygdala and moon presence" theory isn't exactly right either. The mother brain, who gets no name at all or a title is also a great one.
Yeah I can kind of see how that can come together eventually but where I am right now in the game (at I believe the end of the Forbidden Forest right before the boss) all the clues are still very vague, a bit of a chore to find when not easy to overlook, and the story gets overshadowed by how crushingly difficult the game can be.
Upon first speaking with him
"Ah-hah, you must be the new hunter. Welcome to the Hunter's Dream. This will be your home, for now. I am... Gehrman, friend to you hunters. You're sure to be in a fine haze about now, but don't think too hard about all of this. Just go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good. You know, it's just what hunters do! You'll get used to it..."
"This was once a safe haven for hunters. A workshop where hunters used blood to enhance their weapons and flesh. We don't have as many tools as we once did, but... You're welcome to use whatever you find. (Whispers) ...Even the doll, should it please you..."
It's weird how he hesitates before saying his name. Like he was thinking about which name to use. I dunno, just odd. It's also odd that he suggests you can molest the doll, though I'll chalk that up to them just wanting to let you know that it's something you can use soon.
After killing Father Gascoigne:
"The moon is close. It will be a long hunt tonight. If the beasts loom large, and threaten to crush your spirits, seek the Holy Chalice. As every hunter before you has. A Holy Chalice will reveal the tomb of the gods, ...where hunters partake in communion..."
"Most of the Holy Chalices lie deep within the tomb of the gods. And the few that found their way to the surface... Were lost again in the hands of men. But if the old hunter tales remain true... ...one of the Holy Chalices is worshipped in the valley hamlet. Yet the town is in disarray... It was burned and abandoned, for fear of the scourge, home now only to beasts. The perfect place for a hunter, wouldn't you say?"
Why is he on about chalices so much? Going to Old Yharnam and getting the chalice from the blood starved beast is not even necessary to progress the story. Is he saying you have to get a chalice because every hunter has? Because if so, it's weird because 0 of the chalices are required to get. They come from BSB, Amygdala, and Ebrietas. It sounds like he's saying you have to go into the tombs(chalice dungeons) for hunter communion, but that's just not true.
Outside his house if one has 15 Insight or above and Amelia is met:
"Oh, Laurence... what's taking you so long... I've grown too old for this, or little use now, I'm afraid..."
This is the dialogue we've been discussing. We've no idea what it means.
Outside his house after defeating Rom, The Vacuous Spider:
"Oh, Laurence... Master Willem... Somebody help me... Unshackle me please, anybody... I've had enough of this dream... The night blocks all sight... Oh, somebody, please... "
Now this one is really interesting. It lets us know that he considers Willem a master still, and he wants to be released of being forced by the moon presence into being a hunter helper. Also, where the F is Gehrman all the time when he's not in the hunter's dream? We know he's stuck there in the dream helping hunters, but where is he when you talk to him and he disappears or you just attack him and he disappears until the next time he pops up for story time?
Maybe Gehrman's real body is dead as fuck and that's his grave in the abandoned workshop, but his mind is being kept in the hunter's dream by the moon presence? Maybe he's the one who created the doll. Maybe Gherman had a daughter who the doll belonged to, the daughter birthed a great one(umbilical cord left in abandoned workshop) that became the moon presence, and that's why the moon presence dreams the hunter's dream as modelled after the abandoned workshop, and the doll is given life to keep Gehrman from being so lonely?
I'm just making shit up and pulling from theories I've seen floated, but it's fun.
Full game spoilers.
And at first it's fairly cogent. You're a hunter and you're killing beasts. You try and help people out but nothing seems to go right. the crow hunter dies. There's an old man who seems kind of nice but he pretty quickly stops giving you any advice. There's a place you can send people that seems kind of safe but even when they get there it seems like they're just getting more and more insane. There's a nice doctor but for some reason they become evil.
But there's still an element of reality. You're a beast hunter, and you're doing things you maybe don't want to do, but there's still sanity in places. the Executioner guy seems legit. There's a sane guy on top of a tower who tries to kill you but he at least has explained his reasons for doing so. You can travel to a place called the hunters dream but maybe that's just a figure of speech?
Then you find the abandoned workshop. This makes it clear that the Doll and the workshop are explicitly Not Real, and if workshop is Definitely Not Real then maybe other things are Not Real too?
So you're sort of descending into some type of madness, the dream is becoming more of a nightmare. Then you kill Amelia. You don't want to kill her, but like a nightmare an apparently nice person turns into a monster and you have to kill her. Now things are starting to get bad. People who were talking to you before are now screaming and gibbering. You go into the forgotten woods, and it's totally a nightmare world. An absurd amount of snakes. No comfort, nothing nice.
Then you face Rom. The moment before you fight him seems like a moment of understanding, but there's no way to progress. You kill him. Now you're the only one left. There's no sane people left now. The nightmare is complete, even the people in the chapel are completely bonkers now. Every door is silent, every door is madness. There are horrible creatures here.
At this point you get the feeling that the nightmare isn't really your own, that there are some horrible forces invading your nightmare. The amygdala are now visible, and you even go fight one. The 'force invading your nightmare' becomes literal with The One Reborn.
Now you're going into other nightmares. The lecture hall, the nightmare frontier, the nightmare of mensis, Yarnham itself. What's real? they're all horrible places seemingly created for some horrible unknown purpose. The constrcut starts to break down in the Nightmare of Mensis. Things are getting merged together, pigs with a thousand eyes, dogs with vulture heads. Endless corridors. It doesn't make sense. But you press on and you kill a baby I think? It was horrible but you did it.
Then you return to the dream and it's dawn. You're starting to wake up, you hope. Gerhman offers you a way out. He seems like he's telling the truth but maybe he's the evil presence responsible for all the madness? You don't know, but you want out of this horrible place. He kills you and you wake up in an abandoned city.
Anyway that's how I experienced the story on my first play through with minimal foruming. Certainly more directly engaged than previous souls games.
https://medium.com/@alascii
The area after the Forest, Byrgenwerth is where shit starts popping off, plot wise.
That dialogue has some crazy implications
It's all good stuff really!(Super spoilers)
Like, for one thing, the Doll isn't real. At least, the doll in the dream isn't.
Her real body is still inside the Abandoned Workshop completly shut down and labled (An abandoned doll). She has the ability to manipulate blood echoes which is straight up some high level great one tomfoolery.
So clearly the Doll is tied with the holder of the Dream, the Moon Presence, otherwise, why would it even be there?
And then you get the endings and HOLY SHIT she recognizes you when you're a little baby great one WHY IS SHE STILL MOVING WHY DOES THE DREAM EVEN STILL EXIST AAAHHHH.
What specifically?
THINK ABOUT IT!
(don't think about it)
PSN: Robo_Wizard1
This is totally unrelated to Bloodborne, but reading your post, while also having the context of the word dank being co-opted by internet memes and pot made me laugh uncontrollably, especially with your avatar of Brian Regan. Like, i'm just imagining somebody describing Yharnam to their buddy and just being like "Yeah man, this world is mad dank."
This is the dialogue
"The hunters must die... The nightmare must end..."
"Only I can stop this madness!" (continued laughter)
When Eileen has been significantly injured, "The beasts cannot be stopped. What good are hunters now?"
(Yelling) "Your blood is mine! A hunter's blood for me! Your punishment is death! Death to hunters!"
"Enough of this terrible dream!" (laughter)
When Eileen is slain, "...Ahh... you monsters..."
"All hunters must die!" (laughter as her body fades)
I don't understand wtf is going on having read that though. I thought she was just hunting hunters to try to give them sky burials. But this the nightmare must end, enough of this terrible dream stuff is really interesting. And why does she now seem to want to kill all hunters?
Only I can stop this madness? Does she think if all hunters die then the cycle will end perhaps? When she's talking about the nightmare ending or enough of this terrible dream, is she just gone crazy and talking about the world itself being a nightmare, or are we getting back into "the whole game is a dream" territory, which I still don't buy.