Cities: Skylines is somewhat exponential; you get more money by spending more money. Leaving it running means you get less money over that same period of time.
In FF, it's faster to level up by continuing on with the story than grinding a low level area.
In WoW, you're either running dungeons for loot or EXP; both of those are optimized by running as fast as you can without putting yourself at excessive risk.
In Pillars, everything in the design seems to indicate that random encounters should be relatively threatening and use your resources, and that (since max supplies held is arbitrarily limited) careful use of these supplies to keep yourself strong is how things are "supposed" to go. This makes sense, because from a D&D perspective, resting is supposed to happen every few encounters, and (since the DM can do whatever) you can get punished for spending gross amounts of time resting instead of fighting. But the "punishment" for resting excessively isn't like in D&D, where leaving a keep you murdered people at for a week means the guard posted is replaced and doubled, or the treasure gets moved. It's just that you can't rest any more unless you go through loading screens. If encounters were nontrivial, a lot more people would be making the same complaint they make about Caed Nua; I can either try to play without using a lot of spells to get through more encounters, or slog through loading screens when I do need to rest. The way camping supplies are managed would, with actually difficult encounters, exacerbate that loading screen issue to every part of the game, especially given how penalizing being tired is and how easily your characters tire out in long encounters.
EDIT: To look at it another way, let's imagine a player wants to very carefully play an Iron Man Expert Mode PotD game. Any mistake is fatal and can't be fixed, so we're basically in roguelike mode; at that point, dying is a lot worse than in a regular game. I have no doubt (especially from reading about how people played those sorts of runs) that they're constantly resting to make sure they are at full capacity for any fight that's even close to difficult. It's just tremendously boring to do so, and the only reason players don't do that in general is because on non PotD (and in most PotD encounters) the difficulty is trivial, and it's not very punishing to lose. I'd find it either more interesting if supplies in such a run were limited so they became part of the strategy, or less frustrating if I didn't need to spend three minutes restocking my supplies when I needed to rest.
Speaking as a guy who's currently doing a triple crown solo run, meaning I have to play very cautiously, the camping supplies thing is not as bad as all that. I only use them when I need to refresh my figurines, most dungeons and wilderness areas have camping supplies you can loot somewhere or a place you can rest, and most quests have few enough unskippable pulls that you don't actually need to run back to town that often. I'm playing on a chanter, it might be worse with a wizard or something but I doubt it's that much worse.
On non-trial of iron runs, or ones with a party/at lower difficulty, camping supplies come into play even less.
When are you supposed to be able to take on the first set of bounties? I have a full party at level 6 and haven't had success on any of them. Granted, I still haven't left Act 1 because I like to do everything as it's available if possible.
Where do you get these bounties people keep talking about? In past Dyrford and have not seen any.
0
Options
Sir CarcassI have been shown the end of my worldRound Rock, TXRegistered Userregular
One thing I'm curious about is does the monologue before the final fight change if you're soloing?
When are you supposed to be able to take on the first set of bounties? I have a full party at level 6 and haven't had success on any of them. Granted, I still haven't left Act 1 because I like to do everything as it's available if possible.
Where do you get these bounties people keep talking about? In past Dyrford and have not seen any.
You have to build the Warden's Lodge in your keep, and then go talk to the guy in it.
And anybody have an answer for my question?
I think it's an elegant solution in that if you want to BE lame and rest after every encounter you're going to FEEL lame as you trudge through loading screens.
When are you supposed to be able to take on the first set of bounties? I have a full party at level 6 and haven't had success on any of them. Granted, I still haven't left Act 1 because I like to do everything as it's available if possible.
Where do you get these bounties people keep talking about? In past Dyrford and have not seen any.
You have to build the Warden's Lodge in your keep, and then go talk to the guy in it.
And anybody have an answer for my question?
I only took one bounty and I didn't manage it until I was level 12
the idea that infinite camping is a problem because you can trudge back to town after every fight is dumb. seriously, tremendously dumb. the game designers didn't plan for these people because no one is going to fucking do that.
the idea that infinite camping is a problem because you can trudge back to town after every fight is dumb. seriously, tremendously dumb. the game designers didn't plan for these people because no one is going to fucking do that.
I did the Endless Paths at the beginning of the game, so actually....
I would have wasted talent points on one that increased my camp limit.
Cities: Skylines is somewhat exponential; you get more money by spending more money. Leaving it running means you get less money over that same period of time.
In FF, it's faster to level up by continuing on with the story than grinding a low level area.
In WoW, you're either running dungeons for loot or EXP; both of those are optimized by running as fast as you can without putting yourself at excessive risk.
And in Pillars, it's faster to level up and progress by pushing forward quickly, completing quests, than by taking the time to go rest after every fight. Based on your examples it's identical to FF or WoW in that respect.
The goal is to beat the game. If optimal play means beating the game as quickly as possible, then yeah, nobody is going to rest after every single fight and trudge all the way back to town.
Optimal play in the older IE games was still about getting through the game in a reasonable amount of time, but you could rest after every fight without taking up much time, so people did. In this one you can't, so people who want to get through the game in a reasonable amount of time won't.
You seem to be complaining about how players will "optimally" rest after every fight in PotD. That's a hard mode. People are doing it for the achievement. It's like playing through Zelda 1 with no sword, there's a lot of tedious bullshit involved with doing that. You have to use bombs a lot in the beginning which means going and buying them from a shop or picking and choosing the enemies you kill very carefully. Optimal swordless Link play IS tedious. So is any game if you're trying to achieve something extra difficult.
The loading screens in PoE are long, and every inn as behind at least 2 of them. I did weigh 'how to pace my campfires so I can finish Endless Paths with 3 return trips' though. (I did 1-5 at level 8, 5-10 at 10, and 11-15 at 12)
It's ultimately a consequence of 'we want powerful abilities that you don't use every fight.' Once you make that decision, then you need some kind of limiter. I think the campfire/rest/fatigue and health/endurance systems are pretty elegant solutions.
I am not super happy at where the endgame balance lies though, the 4 per encounter l1/l2 wizard spells are better than many endgame class abilities which should be obviously dumb.
I only rest when it makes sense. If my characters are completely ravaged after a few fights, I rest. I've almost never rested only to get access to a spell again because it's not necessary ( I am playing on normal usually ). It just doesn't seem like a problem to me, but I haven't tried potd.
I think in most games of this ilk, it's best to allow people to rest as they wish, but add DM style consequences for doing so. Rest in place on a map which is active? You might get ambushed. Return to an inn? Some guards will respawn. And then have the wandering monsters give minimal xp and treasure.
You ever notice how if you load a game from a state where you were sneaking near an enemy a lot of times the awareness indicator will be filled and then quickly go back to hidden status?
In my first game, I had a save in the main square inside Raedric's Keep, and I rested. When I woke up, somehow it had aggrod the whole set of about 10 guards on the other side of the wall and closed door from me. About 15 seconds later they all came charging down the hall and wrecked me.
I had no problem with the resting limits. I role played, given this is a role playing game. Like SilentRoughWater, I only rested when it made sense; when one of my guys HP was so low the next fight was risky, or when I exhausted all my rest abilities in one or more tough battles, and scouting the next fight I knew I'd need some heavy firepower.
Other than Endless Paths, there was never a point in the game where I needed more than 2 rests (played on Hard) to get through an area. And of course, Endless Paths is clearly NOT meant to be done in one shot. I think I did it in 4 visits, 1-5 at the end of Act I, 6-11 or so around 3/4 of the way through Act II, and the rest right before I hit the point of no return in Act III.
I like the system a lot. It makes me THINK about using Fire Bug or some other gnarly, devastating ability. "Do I really need the nuclear option for this battle?" And if I was playing on Normal and had FOUR rests, I can't even conceive of using them all up in even the most difficult excursion, particularly because all such areas have at least one set of camping supplies stuffed in a barrel or something along the way, just in case I jump the gun and rest too early.
If you don't like the system because you like to blast every battle with your best shit, then play on Easy and/or use console commands. I like the system as it is, and it creates a cool role playing opportunity.
The Chanter can make a good tank. Their chants aren't affected by dexterity and many of them aren't affected by might either. So they really only need intellect and you can dump dexterity, and might if you don't use damaging chants, and put the points into perception, resolve, and constitution to make them into tanks.
Recommended stats don't make a lot of sense when a) most classes can fill multiple roles and they have no idea which role you're going to aim for, and b) the devs tried to make every stat valuable for every character so it's not like modern D&D where All Bards Have High Charisma or whatever.
It's so much fun to play as an irredeemable evil character. I highly recommend everyone to do it, and not care about reputation hits and such.
You can get up to some real despicable antics in this game. I kind of hate myself for some of my choices in my Bleak Walker playthrough, which pretty much means the evil branch of the game is a huge success.
Unless there's something more evil coming up later in the game, I'm pretty sure you have to be a bit evil to begin with to do the thing you guys are talking about.
does anyone actually have any issue tossing durance into the pool?
also tangentially related I'm a little disappointed they made priests squishy like mages and druids, unlike clerics who were quite durable.
Yeah I couldn't do that, and I think a lot of others couldn't either.
If you're too good, maybe too "benevolent" or not enough "cruel" or "aggressive," they don't let you sacrifice anyone. The pool says "it's a shame there's nothing in your soul we can use..."
does anyone actually have any issue tossing durance into the pool?
also tangentially related I'm a little disappointed they made priests squishy like mages and druids, unlike clerics who were quite durable.
I threw Sagani in. It was hard to read the description of what happened to her, especially because the Grieving Mother knows what you did.
There's no real reason to have your priest be squishy. It just depends on how you want them to play. I mean, are you really firing off spells just as fast as possible? No? Then you don't need to be running around naked. Put some armor on. Are you really depending on your priest to deal out melee damage? No, not really? Put a shield on him.
I really don't see attack speed as an issue with the per rest (vancian) spell casters in general. I don't want to blow through their spells mega fast, and healing is a slow enough thing that a second or two here or there isn't a big deal. Potions, scrolls and such being available lessens the need even more.
I did build a mage around the idea of throwing Minor Blights, and that one I keep in the fast attack range. But for general purposes? Put some goddamn armor on, I say.
priests have low base endurance and deflection. they simply can't take hits like other classes can, no matter how you build them. that's a big departure from clerics being the second most durable class in hit points and armor class.
Even if you are going to be the tankiest tank, Con seems like a questionable investment
The difference in Endurance seems pretty minor, and defenses and damage resistance play a much greater role than just having like 20 more endurance
The HP is more important than the endurance for your main tank. You want your tank to have a ton of HP unless you want to rest constantly to refill it. Which you can, I guess, but its annoying.
Constitution double dips for HP: Max HP = ((base Endurance) * Con bonus) * multiplier * Con bonus.
Edit: Actually I might be wrong about the double dip. I need to confirm it.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
fighters can definitely run out of health. the constant endurance recovery means they take more health damage than other classes. paladins to a lesser extent with liberal use of lay on hands, and doubly so if you have a chanter on top of that.
priests have low base endurance and deflection. they simply can't take hits like other classes can, no matter how you build them. that's a big departure from clerics being the second most durable class in hit points and armor class.
Eh, the starting difference in those attributes doesn't matter as much as you might think, especially when buffs are brought into the equation. Later when gear and enchanted items becomes a thing, you can easily make a very sturdy priest.
Late act 2 spoilers
Neat! If you send the little girl to her death at the tower, the Grieving Mother leaves your party. Very nice. I was hoping for someone to finally get sick of my paladin's shit.
All different. You can cast them as many times as you can...cast.
So if you have Slicken, Fan of Flames, and Chill Fog in your level 1 slots you can cast Slicken 4 times, or Fan of Flames 3 times and Chill Fog once or whatever combination you want.
Do you want all different spells in Grimoire's to switch between during combat or if you have 4 copies of X spell you can cast it 4 times?
You can also put another grimoire in your quickslot with entirely different spells, and use those instead of your current grimoire spell list. You don't get anymore spells per day this way, just a wider variety.
priests have low base endurance and deflection. they simply can't take hits like other classes can, no matter how you build them. that's a big departure from clerics being the second most durable class in hit points and armor class.
Eh, the starting difference in those attributes doesn't matter as much as you might think, especially when buffs are brought into the equation. Later when gear and enchanted items becomes a thing, you can easily make a very sturdy priest.
Late act 2 spoilers
Neat! If you send the little girl to her death at the tower, the Grieving Mother leaves your party. Very nice. I was hoping for someone to finally get sick of my paladin's shit.
You can keep her if she isn't in your party. I'm honestly surprised that none of my other companions objected to any of the horrible shit I did.
Posts
Cities: Skylines is somewhat exponential; you get more money by spending more money. Leaving it running means you get less money over that same period of time.
In FF, it's faster to level up by continuing on with the story than grinding a low level area.
In WoW, you're either running dungeons for loot or EXP; both of those are optimized by running as fast as you can without putting yourself at excessive risk.
In Pillars, everything in the design seems to indicate that random encounters should be relatively threatening and use your resources, and that (since max supplies held is arbitrarily limited) careful use of these supplies to keep yourself strong is how things are "supposed" to go. This makes sense, because from a D&D perspective, resting is supposed to happen every few encounters, and (since the DM can do whatever) you can get punished for spending gross amounts of time resting instead of fighting. But the "punishment" for resting excessively isn't like in D&D, where leaving a keep you murdered people at for a week means the guard posted is replaced and doubled, or the treasure gets moved. It's just that you can't rest any more unless you go through loading screens. If encounters were nontrivial, a lot more people would be making the same complaint they make about Caed Nua; I can either try to play without using a lot of spells to get through more encounters, or slog through loading screens when I do need to rest. The way camping supplies are managed would, with actually difficult encounters, exacerbate that loading screen issue to every part of the game, especially given how penalizing being tired is and how easily your characters tire out in long encounters.
EDIT: To look at it another way, let's imagine a player wants to very carefully play an Iron Man Expert Mode PotD game. Any mistake is fatal and can't be fixed, so we're basically in roguelike mode; at that point, dying is a lot worse than in a regular game. I have no doubt (especially from reading about how people played those sorts of runs) that they're constantly resting to make sure they are at full capacity for any fight that's even close to difficult. It's just tremendously boring to do so, and the only reason players don't do that in general is because on non PotD (and in most PotD encounters) the difficulty is trivial, and it's not very punishing to lose. I'd find it either more interesting if supplies in such a run were limited so they became part of the strategy, or less frustrating if I didn't need to spend three minutes restocking my supplies when I needed to rest.
On non-trial of iron runs, or ones with a party/at lower difficulty, camping supplies come into play even less.
Where do you get these bounties people keep talking about? In past Dyrford and have not seen any.
And anybody have an answer for my question?
I only took one bounty and I didn't manage it until I was level 12
On POTD those same bounties were ball crushingly hard and I've abandoned them for now.
I did the Endless Paths at the beginning of the game, so actually....
I would have wasted talent points on one that increased my camp limit.
And in Pillars, it's faster to level up and progress by pushing forward quickly, completing quests, than by taking the time to go rest after every fight. Based on your examples it's identical to FF or WoW in that respect.
The goal is to beat the game. If optimal play means beating the game as quickly as possible, then yeah, nobody is going to rest after every single fight and trudge all the way back to town.
Optimal play in the older IE games was still about getting through the game in a reasonable amount of time, but you could rest after every fight without taking up much time, so people did. In this one you can't, so people who want to get through the game in a reasonable amount of time won't.
You seem to be complaining about how players will "optimally" rest after every fight in PotD. That's a hard mode. People are doing it for the achievement. It's like playing through Zelda 1 with no sword, there's a lot of tedious bullshit involved with doing that. You have to use bombs a lot in the beginning which means going and buying them from a shop or picking and choosing the enemies you kill very carefully. Optimal swordless Link play IS tedious. So is any game if you're trying to achieve something extra difficult.
It's ultimately a consequence of 'we want powerful abilities that you don't use every fight.' Once you make that decision, then you need some kind of limiter. I think the campfire/rest/fatigue and health/endurance systems are pretty elegant solutions.
I am not super happy at where the endgame balance lies though, the 4 per encounter l1/l2 wizard spells are better than many endgame class abilities which should be obviously dumb.
Wii U NNID: TJandSam Steam: BrokenBrik
In my first game, I had a save in the main square inside Raedric's Keep, and I rested. When I woke up, somehow it had aggrod the whole set of about 10 guards on the other side of the wall and closed door from me. About 15 seconds later they all came charging down the hall and wrecked me.
It was weird.
Other than Endless Paths, there was never a point in the game where I needed more than 2 rests (played on Hard) to get through an area. And of course, Endless Paths is clearly NOT meant to be done in one shot. I think I did it in 4 visits, 1-5 at the end of Act I, 6-11 or so around 3/4 of the way through Act II, and the rest right before I hit the point of no return in Act III.
I like the system a lot. It makes me THINK about using Fire Bug or some other gnarly, devastating ability. "Do I really need the nuclear option for this battle?" And if I was playing on Normal and had FOUR rests, I can't even conceive of using them all up in even the most difficult excursion, particularly because all such areas have at least one set of camping supplies stuffed in a barrel or something along the way, just in case I jump the gun and rest too early.
If you don't like the system because you like to blast every battle with your best shit, then play on Easy and/or use console commands. I like the system as it is, and it creates a cool role playing opportunity.
Wii U NNID: TJandSam Steam: BrokenBrik
You can get up to some real despicable antics in this game. I kind of hate myself for some of my choices in my Bleak Walker playthrough, which pretty much means the evil branch of the game is a huge success.
also tangentially related I'm a little disappointed they made priests squishy like mages and druids, unlike clerics who were quite durable.
The difference in Endurance seems pretty minor, and defenses and damage resistance play a much greater role than just having like 20 more endurance
Yeah I couldn't do that, and I think a lot of others couldn't either.
There's no real reason to have your priest be squishy. It just depends on how you want them to play. I mean, are you really firing off spells just as fast as possible? No? Then you don't need to be running around naked. Put some armor on. Are you really depending on your priest to deal out melee damage? No, not really? Put a shield on him.
I really don't see attack speed as an issue with the per rest (vancian) spell casters in general. I don't want to blow through their spells mega fast, and healing is a slow enough thing that a second or two here or there isn't a big deal. Potions, scrolls and such being available lessens the need even more.
I did build a mage around the idea of throwing Minor Blights, and that one I keep in the fast attack range. But for general purposes? Put some goddamn armor on, I say.
The HP is more important than the endurance for your main tank. You want your tank to have a ton of HP unless you want to rest constantly to refill it. Which you can, I guess, but its annoying.
Constitution double dips for HP: Max HP = ((base Endurance) * Con bonus) * multiplier * Con bonus.
Edit: Actually I might be wrong about the double dip. I need to confirm it.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Eh, the starting difference in those attributes doesn't matter as much as you might think, especially when buffs are brought into the equation. Later when gear and enchanted items becomes a thing, you can easily make a very sturdy priest.
Late act 2 spoilers
So if you have Slicken, Fan of Flames, and Chill Fog in your level 1 slots you can cast Slicken 4 times, or Fan of Flames 3 times and Chill Fog once or whatever combination you want.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970
You can also put another grimoire in your quickslot with entirely different spells, and use those instead of your current grimoire spell list. You don't get anymore spells per day this way, just a wider variety.