Hulk is best when the Hulk/Banner thing is ambiguous and uncertain.
--
I went to the movie this past night, and I was quite satisfied. Ultron was a bit... different... but it made sense in the context of the film.
--
"Death" in the films is going to mostly be designed so that "Oh hey I just had this AMAZING idea for a movie using that guy who appeared to die in movie 17."
They don't HAVE to use them again, but just in case, the opportunity is there.
--
Ultron's army's biggest weak point is that they are at least occasionally remote controlled. They could have just thrown faraday cage nets and used disruptive signals and such all over the place to wreck his control, albeit at the likely cost of losing their own radio options.
Well, making them stronger would have meant making less of them. Clearly Ultron wanted to go for Zerg Rush tactics.
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
Also, part of Ultron's psychosis is that he needs to be- or at least believe that he is- the opposite of the Avengers. The Avengers are an elite team of the greatest fighters on Earth, so Ultron creates an army.
Yeah Banner definitely 'leaves' when the Hulk takes over. When he drops from the helicarrier in the first movie, his first question is 'did I hurt anybody?'
Well as I said last page, we know that Hulk seems aware of Banner stuff but Banner has no memory of Hulk stuff. Given that Banner loathes pretty much all the Hulk time stuff (violence, aggression, lack of control) it is not implausible that he doesn't remember it because he's repressing it. Given that the whole basis of the character is what happens if those primal emotions that we control and repress were given free reign (and super strength) I don't think this is exactly crazy.
Hulk has always been that side of himself that Banner has trouble accepting.
Well as I said last page, we know that Hulk seems aware of Banner stuff but Banner has no memory of Hulk stuff. Given that Banner loathes pretty much all the Hulk time stuff (violence, aggression, lack of control) it is not implausible that he doesn't remember it because he's repressing it. Given that the whole basis of the character is what happens if those primal emotions that we control and repress were given free reign (and super strength) I don't think this is exactly crazy.
Hulk has always been that side of himself that Banner has trouble accepting.
I really get the feeling it's an arc they intend to close out in the 3rd Avengers movie(s), with Banner finally coming to accept that side of himself.
Well, making them stronger would have meant making less of them. Clearly Ultron wanted to go for Zerg Rush tactics.
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
He didn't have to make an army of Terminators but he could have made them tough enough to withstand being stabbed by a normal human. Or at the very least, make the armor protecting their CPU a bit stronger.
Well, making them stronger would have meant making less of them. Clearly Ultron wanted to go for Zerg Rush tactics.
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
He didn't have to make an army of Terminators but he could have made them tough enough to withstand being stabbed by a normal human. Or at the very least, make the armor protecting their CPU a bit stronger.
Well, making them stronger would have meant making less of them. Clearly Ultron wanted to go for Zerg Rush tactics.
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
He didn't have to make an army of Terminators but he could have made them tough enough to withstand being stabbed by a normal human. Or at the very least, make the armor protecting their CPU a bit stronger.
Ultron didn't design the drones. Hydra did. They're already built at the start of the movie, Ultron just takes em over and uses em. He spends all his time building the doomsday drill, and then one better body for himself.
Maybe he shoulda built an army of those superior bodies, but as has been pointed out - even though he can inhabit any of those drone bodies, he doesn't seem to consider them 'him'. He's not legion, he's a mind in a body, that has control over an army of lesser bodies. If he'd built an army of identical awesome bots, it would dilute him, make him less. Which isn't a rational choice, since he's sacrificing a massive advantage by keeping his powerful unique body to himself, but he's an actual crazy person! People expect him to make cold logical choices cause he's a robot, but he's more human and flawed than that.
It would have been cool if Pepper had been at the party
and one of the Iron Legion robots grabs her, and she just melts its head off. And everyone is like, "what the hell was that?" Then Tony gives a smirk towards Thor.
Fuck it, that's now in my headcanon.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
It was hidden! And he'd take it back when Loki delivered the goods. Loki also probably didn't know the Tesseract was an Infinity Stone, like Ronan didn't know the Orb was one either. Downside of keeping the big bad guy in the shadows is that we don't get to see the contracts he draws up for these guys, but we could safely assume "go get this ingot of literally infinite power for me" is omitted or at least in very fine print.
We may never truly know what Thanos's schemes were, but I think loki's staff harboring the malevolent Ai was meant as a trap for Asgard. Idea being if loki failed getting tessaract, Asgard is likely to obtain both tessaract and staff (mind and space gems) and the Ai trap would allow an agent of Thanos to grab both from inside.
Thanos again underestimated humanity's ability to foil his plans.
It doesn't even need to be that complicated (though it's Thanos so of course it is): You use your powerful weapons to secure other powerful weapons, even if there's a risk to losing both. Or better yet you let someone else do it.
It doesn't even need to be that complicated (though it's Thanos so of course it is): You use your powerful weapons to secure other powerful weapons, even if there's a risk to losing both. Or better yet you let someone else do it.
Yeah, this is how I read it.
Which is the in story reason for the very end of Avengers 2 with Thanos. Now that the mind stone is for sure not gonna work it's way back to him, he's all "fine, I'll go fucking get it then, christ"
+3
Options
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
It doesn't even need to be that complicated (though it's Thanos so of course it is): You use your powerful weapons to secure other powerful weapons, even if there's a risk to losing both. Or better yet you let someone else do it.
Yeah, this is how I read it.
Which is the in story reason for the very end of Avengers 2 with Thanos. Now that the mind stone is for sure not gonna work it's way back to him, he's all "fine, I'll go fucking get it then, christ"
That was my take also - it was a gamble to acquire a second stone.
It also speaks volumes as to Thanos' own power that he could give an infinity stone to someone with every confidence that he could take it back.
0
Options
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Well, making them stronger would have meant making less of them. Clearly Ultron wanted to go for Zerg Rush tactics.
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
He didn't have to make an army of Terminators but he could have made them tough enough to withstand being stabbed by a normal human. Or at the very least, make the armor protecting their CPU a bit stronger.
Ultron didn't design the drones. Hydra did. They're already built at the start of the movie, Ultron just takes em over and uses em. He spends all his time building the doomsday drill, and then one better body for himself.
Maybe he shoulda built an army of those superior bodies, but as has been pointed out - even though he can inhabit any of those drone bodies, he doesn't seem to consider them 'him'. He's not legion, he's a mind in a body, that has control over an army of lesser bodies. If he'd built an army of identical awesome bots, it would dilute him, make him less. Which isn't a rational choice, since he's sacrificing a massive advantage by keeping his powerful unique body to himself, but he's an actual crazy person! People expect him to make cold logical choices cause he's a robot, but he's more human and flawed than that.
That makes sense within the context of the movie, but it's still kind of a weird writing choice. Ultron's personality quirks lead him to ignore a lot of the unique aspects an AI villain typically has, and given that the more traditional, logical version of this character isn't exactly common in movies, it feels like a missed opportunity (or a deliberate attempt to conform Ultron's challenge to the same kind of "dude in charge + mook army" villain set up in most of the other Marvel films).
Utilizing existing stones to gain new ones isn't that foreign a concept for Thanos. He once bet five of the stones in a game of skill to get the sixth one.
Utilizing existing stones to gain new ones isn't that foreign a concept for Thanos. He once bet five of the stones in a game of skill to get the sixth one.
Well Thanos has done lots of things we don't talk about anymore.
0
Options
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I definitely don't think we're meant to understand that hulk/banner are multiple personalities in the films. Banner remembers what he does as the hulk and exhibits a level of control over himself (he can work together with thor, smile and acknowledge friends, etc.) Banner just doesn't like 'being' the hulk; this is the thrust of the 'I'm always angry' line. Being really angry isn't that much fun for us mortals, and we can just hit the heavy bag or whatever to let off steam.
I have never really liked the idea of hulk/banner being separate/antagonistic personas; to me that loses a lot of what's interesting about the character
That's fair, but the multiple personality angle to Hulk/Banner has been a feature of almost every major Hulk story since the character began.
Lee has stated that his original concept of the Hulk was influenced by both Frankenstein and Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
You can dislike it for sure, that's open to you, but it is how the character is intended to be understood, and always has been.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Honestly, a hulk movie that explores the realtionship between hulk and banner would be fascinating to see.
Assuming of course, you could find a director who could do it justice.
+4
Options
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited May 2015
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
I thought Incredible Hulk had a decent amount of action in it, certainly a million times more than the Ang Lee Hulk, but yeah, I would love to see another Marvel Studios go around at him.
I didn't like Ultron because he was ultimately boring and did nothing with the AI gone wrong idea
Such as?
The problem with Ultron was they never committed to one idea of another. If he's a global internet AI then you need to play him up as a global persistent threat more. Terminator 3 did this subtly with Skynet and it was one of the things about that movie which worked, story-wise. Ultron as a global AI threat should've had absurdly dangerous minion armies - something which made it seem like dangerous because mooks were hitting at boss-tier levels.
Conversely, if Ultron was very singular - very much not acting like an AI - then they should've focused on that angle more. Maybe dropped the internet thing entirely ("you think your primitive networks can contain my magnificence!") and focused more on the idea that it's defeatable because it won't compromise - it *could* distribute itself, but keeps backing into a single super-body (and then your end scramble is taking down the superbody and having enraged Ultron fragments distribute to the drones).
The thing is they kept talking about Ultron like it was one thing, then showing it as another - both externally and internally. Ultron wasn't complicated, nor sufficiently menacing, nor misunderstood - the movie just didn't seem to know what it wanted it to be.
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
Planet Hulk, done well, would be the best of both worlds with that.
I still want a future imperfect movie done well.
I didn't like Ultron because he was ultimately boring and did nothing with the AI gone wrong idea
Such as?
The problem with Ultron was they never committed to one idea of another. If he's a global internet AI then you need to play him up as a global persistent threat more. Terminator 3 did this subtly with Skynet and it was one of the things about that movie which worked, story-wise. Ultron as a global AI threat should've had absurdly dangerous minion armies - something which made it seem like dangerous because mooks were hitting at boss-tier levels.
Conversely, if Ultron was very singular - very much not acting like an AI - then they should've focused on that angle more. Maybe dropped the internet thing entirely ("you think your primitive networks can contain my magnificence!") and focused more on the idea that it's defeatable because it won't compromise - it *could* distribute itself, but keeps backing into a single super-body (and then your end scramble is taking down the superbody and having enraged Ultron fragments distribute to the drones).
The thing is they kept talking about Ultron like it was one thing, then showing it as another - both externally and internally. Ultron wasn't complicated, nor sufficiently menacing, nor misunderstood - the movie just didn't seem to know what it wanted it to be.
in the end they just fell back on the old "big boss and army of mooks that die in one punch"
IE except the same thing as Avengers 1 did
0
Options
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
I thought Incredible Hulk had a decent amount of action in it, certainly a million times more than the Ang Lee Hulk, but yeah, I would love to see another Marvel Studios go around at him.
Really? I've always thought the opposite.
Ang Lee Hulk had:
Hulk wrecking up a lab
Hulk fighting a bunch of gamma mutant monsters (everyone hates on the gamma dogs, I have no idea why, they were awesome)
Hulk wrecking up a military base
Hulk fighting the military for fuggin' ever, tanks and choppers and jets, from a desert to San Fran
Hulk vs. giant evil monster (Absorbing Man)
Incredible had:
Hulk wrecking up a factory
Hulk fighting the military in a field
Hulk vs giant evil monster (Abomination)
I will admit that the fight with Abomination was longer than the one with Absorbing Man. But I also felt the stakes were higher in the Absorbing Man fight, and they did a better job of getting across that Hulk is fueled by his anger and no one can hope to control it.
0
Options
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I didn't like Ultron because he was ultimately boring and did nothing with the AI gone wrong idea
Such as?
The problem with Ultron was they never committed to one idea of another. If he's a global internet AI then you need to play him up as a global persistent threat more. Terminator 3 did this subtly with Skynet and it was one of the things about that movie which worked, story-wise. Ultron as a global AI threat should've had absurdly dangerous minion armies - something which made it seem like dangerous because mooks were hitting at boss-tier levels.
Conversely, if Ultron was very singular - very much not acting like an AI - then they should've focused on that angle more. Maybe dropped the internet thing entirely ("you think your primitive networks can contain my magnificence!") and focused more on the idea that it's defeatable because it won't compromise - it *could* distribute itself, but keeps backing into a single super-body (and then your end scramble is taking down the superbody and having enraged Ultron fragments distribute to the drones).
The thing is they kept talking about Ultron like it was one thing, then showing it as another - both externally and internally. Ultron wasn't complicated, nor sufficiently menacing, nor misunderstood - the movie just didn't seem to know what it wanted it to be.
In contrast, I thought despair bot was extremely interesting because he wasn't consistent, wasnt fully in control, didn't know what he really wanted, and acted like a real intelligence with contradictory motivations. Because that's what real intelligence is: it isn't consistent. Rocks are consistent. Consistency isn't an automatic virtue in a character. Intelligence can and does change, all the time. So too do good characters.
He was the most impressive artificial intelligence I've ever seen, because he didn't have any of the stupid generic AI stereotypes going on.
I disagree completely with your assessment of his character. He was an extremely complicated character. He was lonely, boastful, prideful, yearning, desperate for recognition, but rejecting those who could recognise him, philosophically and ethically self aware but lacking in basic empathic understanding, disdainful of humanity and his own creators, but ultimately wanting to prove himself better than them despite his contempt, indicating he still looked to them as a model or goal he had to surpass. His goal for most of the film was to understand humans, because he could not, and this frustrated him, because he was obviously superior yet he could not get them. The frustration due to this lack of understanding eventually drove him to write them off, even though, in the end, he still cared about some of them, as his reaction to scarlet witch at the end showed.
He was the very definition of internal character conflict. He was menacing because of all this. Because he was such a strange, unpredictable entity, massively powerful, capable of anything, ultimately broken, that he came off like the best twisted villains.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
+4
Options
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I'm inclined to agree. A true AI would be a personality - a person, capable of all manner of complex and conflicting impulses and emotions.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
I'm inclined to agree. A true AI would be a personality - a person, capable of all manner of complex and conflicting impulses and emotions.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
Nah, in the comics he's not a stereotypical robot villain. He hides under a facade of being a robot but it's obvious there's underlying psychosis and a yearning for a family. AoU went a bit further with that approach with his craziness, and slightly altered him to mirror Stark.
0
Options
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I'm inclined to agree. A true AI would be a personality - a person, capable of all manner of complex and conflicting impulses and emotions.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
Nah, in the comics he's not a stereotypical robot villain. He hides under a facade of being a robot but it's obvious there's underlying psychosis and a yearning for a family. AoU went a bit further with that approach with his craziness, and slightly altered him to mirror Stark.
More modern stories are like that, yeah - New Avengers, Annihilation: Conquest, etc. A:C wasn't that great overall, but it did have an interesting element that I think they might have borrowed for the film:
Ultron infuses his mind into the physical body of Adam Warlock, an artificial humanoid lifeform initally brought to life by an Infinity Gem. Ultron explains that he hates only the imperfection of evolved lifeforms but sees the potential in designed lifeforms, and views Warlock as the perfect artifical organism.
Lots of parallels leaping up between film Vision and comics Warlock.
But I was thinking of some much older Ultron stories, when his goal is replacing humanity with robotic drones because ''All flesh must die!''
+1
Options
Zavianuniversal peace sounds better than forever warRegistered Userregular
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
I thought Incredible Hulk had a decent amount of action in it, certainly a million times more than the Ang Lee Hulk, but yeah, I would love to see another Marvel Studios go around at him.
Really? I've always thought the opposite.
Ang Lee Hulk had:
Hulk wrecking up a lab
Hulk fighting a bunch of gamma mutant monsters (everyone hates on the gamma dogs, I have no idea why, they were awesome)
Hulk wrecking up a military base
Hulk fighting the military for fuggin' ever, tanks and choppers and jets, from a desert to San Fran
Hulk vs. giant evil monster (Absorbing Man)
Incredible had:
Hulk wrecking up a factory
Hulk fighting the military in a field
Hulk vs giant evil monster (Abomination)
I will admit that the fight with Abomination was longer than the one with Absorbing Man. But I also felt the stakes were higher in the Absorbing Man fight, and they did a better job of getting across that Hulk is fueled by his anger and no one can hope to control it.
well I thought the absorbing man fight was a huge let down, he was basically fighting a cloud, and the military fights were kind of boring to me besides when he smashed up the tanks. Ang Lee's Hulk felt more like 85% drama to 15% action, and the drama part was IMO really lame. I just remember Hulk jumping around a lot and looking sad. The CGI also was pretty inferior IMO. Incredible Hulk seemed to be a lot more faster paced, and I really liked the Steve Rogers-esque Emil Blonsky fight even though it didn't last long, it was a nice preview of what Cap is capable of.
I'm inclined to agree. A true AI would be a personality - a person, capable of all manner of complex and conflicting impulses and emotions.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
Nah, in the comics he's not a stereotypical robot villain. He hides under a facade of being a robot but it's obvious there's underlying psychosis and a yearning for a family. AoU went a bit further with that approach with his craziness, and slightly altered him to mirror Stark.
More modern stories are like that, yeah - New Avengers, Annihilation: Conquest, etc. A:C wasn't that great overall, but it did have an interesting element that I think they might have borrowed for the film:
Ultron infuses his mind into the physical body of Adam Warlock, an artificial humanoid lifeform initally brought to life by an Infinity Gem. Ultron explains that he hates only the imperfection of evolved lifeforms but sees the potential in designed lifeforms, and views Warlock as the perfect artifical organism.
Lots of parallels leaping up between film Vision and comics Warlock.
But I was thinking of some much older Ultron stories, when his goal is replacing humanity with robotic drones because ''All flesh must die!''
Point of Order: Adam Warlock wasn't brought to life with an Infinity Gem. He was given the Soul Gem well after he was created.
0
Options
Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I want a hulk movie that is full of the hulk smashing things.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie. They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
I thought Incredible Hulk had a decent amount of action in it, certainly a million times more than the Ang Lee Hulk, but yeah, I would love to see another Marvel Studios go around at him.
Really? I've always thought the opposite.
Ang Lee Hulk had:
Hulk wrecking up a lab
Hulk fighting a bunch of gamma mutant monsters (everyone hates on the gamma dogs, I have no idea why, they were awesome)
Hulk wrecking up a military base
Hulk fighting the military for fuggin' ever, tanks and choppers and jets, from a desert to San Fran
Hulk vs. giant evil monster (Absorbing Man)
Incredible had:
Hulk wrecking up a factory
Hulk fighting the military in a field
Hulk vs giant evil monster (Abomination)
I will admit that the fight with Abomination was longer than the one with Absorbing Man. But I also felt the stakes were higher in the Absorbing Man fight, and they did a better job of getting across that Hulk is fueled by his anger and no one can hope to control it.
well I thought the absorbing man fight was a huge let down, he was basically fighting a cloud, and the military fights were kind of boring to me besides when he smashed up the tanks. Ang Lee's Hulk felt more like 85% drama to 15% action, and the drama part was IMO really lame. I just remember Hulk jumping around a lot and looking sad. The CGI also was pretty inferior IMO. Incredible Hulk seemed to be a lot more faster paced, and I really liked the Steve Rogers-esque Emil Blonsky fight even though it didn't last long, it was a nice preview of what Cap is capable of.
I'm definitely with you on the Blonsky thing - I was absolutely thinking 'they've gotta have Cap do stuff like that.'
I'm inclined to agree. A true AI would be a personality - a person, capable of all manner of complex and conflicting impulses and emotions.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
Nah, in the comics he's not a stereotypical robot villain. He hides under a facade of being a robot but it's obvious there's underlying psychosis and a yearning for a family. AoU went a bit further with that approach with his craziness, and slightly altered him to mirror Stark.
More modern stories are like that, yeah - New Avengers, Annihilation: Conquest, etc. A:C wasn't that great overall, but it did have an interesting element that I think they might have borrowed for the film:
Ultron infuses his mind into the physical body of Adam Warlock, an artificial humanoid lifeform initally brought to life by an Infinity Gem. Ultron explains that he hates only the imperfection of evolved lifeforms but sees the potential in designed lifeforms, and views Warlock as the perfect artifical organism.
Lots of parallels leaping up between film Vision and comics Warlock.
But I was thinking of some much older Ultron stories, when his goal is replacing humanity with robotic drones because ''All flesh must die!''
Point of Order: Adam Warlock wasn't brought to life with an Infinity Gem. He was given the Soul Gem well after he was created.
Posts
--
I went to the movie this past night, and I was quite satisfied. Ultron was a bit... different... but it made sense in the context of the film.
--
"Death" in the films is going to mostly be designed so that "Oh hey I just had this AMAZING idea for a movie using that guy who appeared to die in movie 17."
They don't HAVE to use them again, but just in case, the opportunity is there.
--
Since making them strong enough to go up against the teams heavy hitters would be nearly impossible in any kind of numbers, better to spam as many as you can. Sure, Hawkeye can take them out with arrows, but make enough drones and he'll run out first.
Hulk has always been that side of himself that Banner has trouble accepting.
I really get the feeling it's an arc they intend to close out in the 3rd Avengers movie(s), with Banner finally coming to accept that side of himself.
He didn't have to make an army of Terminators but he could have made them tough enough to withstand being stabbed by a normal human. Or at the very least, make the armor protecting their CPU a bit stronger.
Stun arrow. Zap.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Ultron didn't design the drones. Hydra did. They're already built at the start of the movie, Ultron just takes em over and uses em. He spends all his time building the doomsday drill, and then one better body for himself.
Maybe he shoulda built an army of those superior bodies, but as has been pointed out - even though he can inhabit any of those drone bodies, he doesn't seem to consider them 'him'. He's not legion, he's a mind in a body, that has control over an army of lesser bodies. If he'd built an army of identical awesome bots, it would dilute him, make him less. Which isn't a rational choice, since he's sacrificing a massive advantage by keeping his powerful unique body to himself, but he's an actual crazy person! People expect him to make cold logical choices cause he's a robot, but he's more human and flawed than that.
Fuck it, that's now in my headcanon.
It was part of a mind game.
Thanos again underestimated humanity's ability to foil his plans.
Yeah, this is how I read it.
Which is the in story reason for the very end of Avengers 2 with Thanos. Now that the mind stone is for sure not gonna work it's way back to him, he's all "fine, I'll go fucking get it then, christ"
That was my take also - it was a gamble to acquire a second stone.
It also speaks volumes as to Thanos' own power that he could give an infinity stone to someone with every confidence that he could take it back.
That makes sense within the context of the movie, but it's still kind of a weird writing choice. Ultron's personality quirks lead him to ignore a lot of the unique aspects an AI villain typically has, and given that the more traditional, logical version of this character isn't exactly common in movies, it feels like a missed opportunity (or a deliberate attempt to conform Ultron's challenge to the same kind of "dude in charge + mook army" villain set up in most of the other Marvel films).
Such as?
Utilizing existing stones to gain new ones isn't that foreign a concept for Thanos. He once bet five of the stones in a game of skill to get the sixth one.
Well Thanos has done lots of things we don't talk about anymore.
That's fair, but the multiple personality angle to Hulk/Banner has been a feature of almost every major Hulk story since the character began.
Lee has stated that his original concept of the Hulk was influenced by both Frankenstein and Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
You can dislike it for sure, that's open to you, but it is how the character is intended to be understood, and always has been.
Assuming of course, you could find a director who could do it justice.
Like I would pay full money for a movie that is just a new mad max movie style hulk chaseandsmashathon.
It'd be the worst "movie movie" ever and I'd go to see it five times.
Seriously, there is just never enough actually fucking hulk doing hulk out shit in any hulk centric movie.
They have the most iconic action character in comic books and don't fucking use him.
It's really annoying.
Gimme hulk ultimate destruction, the movie.
I will pay you all the moneys.
You're good people Morninglord.
I thought Incredible Hulk had a decent amount of action in it, certainly a million times more than the Ang Lee Hulk, but yeah, I would love to see another Marvel Studios go around at him.
The problem with Ultron was they never committed to one idea of another. If he's a global internet AI then you need to play him up as a global persistent threat more. Terminator 3 did this subtly with Skynet and it was one of the things about that movie which worked, story-wise. Ultron as a global AI threat should've had absurdly dangerous minion armies - something which made it seem like dangerous because mooks were hitting at boss-tier levels.
Conversely, if Ultron was very singular - very much not acting like an AI - then they should've focused on that angle more. Maybe dropped the internet thing entirely ("you think your primitive networks can contain my magnificence!") and focused more on the idea that it's defeatable because it won't compromise - it *could* distribute itself, but keeps backing into a single super-body (and then your end scramble is taking down the superbody and having enraged Ultron fragments distribute to the drones).
The thing is they kept talking about Ultron like it was one thing, then showing it as another - both externally and internally. Ultron wasn't complicated, nor sufficiently menacing, nor misunderstood - the movie just didn't seem to know what it wanted it to be.
Planet Hulk, done well, would be the best of both worlds with that.
I still want a future imperfect movie done well.
in the end they just fell back on the old "big boss and army of mooks that die in one punch"
IE except the same thing as Avengers 1 did
Really? I've always thought the opposite.
Ang Lee Hulk had:
Hulk wrecking up a lab
Hulk fighting a bunch of gamma mutant monsters (everyone hates on the gamma dogs, I have no idea why, they were awesome)
Hulk wrecking up a military base
Hulk fighting the military for fuggin' ever, tanks and choppers and jets, from a desert to San Fran
Hulk vs. giant evil monster (Absorbing Man)
Incredible had:
Hulk wrecking up a factory
Hulk fighting the military in a field
Hulk vs giant evil monster (Abomination)
I will admit that the fight with Abomination was longer than the one with Absorbing Man. But I also felt the stakes were higher in the Absorbing Man fight, and they did a better job of getting across that Hulk is fueled by his anger and no one can hope to control it.
In contrast, I thought despair bot was extremely interesting because he wasn't consistent, wasnt fully in control, didn't know what he really wanted, and acted like a real intelligence with contradictory motivations. Because that's what real intelligence is: it isn't consistent. Rocks are consistent. Consistency isn't an automatic virtue in a character. Intelligence can and does change, all the time. So too do good characters.
He was the most impressive artificial intelligence I've ever seen, because he didn't have any of the stupid generic AI stereotypes going on.
I disagree completely with your assessment of his character. He was an extremely complicated character. He was lonely, boastful, prideful, yearning, desperate for recognition, but rejecting those who could recognise him, philosophically and ethically self aware but lacking in basic empathic understanding, disdainful of humanity and his own creators, but ultimately wanting to prove himself better than them despite his contempt, indicating he still looked to them as a model or goal he had to surpass. His goal for most of the film was to understand humans, because he could not, and this frustrated him, because he was obviously superior yet he could not get them. The frustration due to this lack of understanding eventually drove him to write them off, even though, in the end, he still cared about some of them, as his reaction to scarlet witch at the end showed.
He was the very definition of internal character conflict. He was menacing because of all this. Because he was such a strange, unpredictable entity, massively powerful, capable of anything, ultimately broken, that he came off like the best twisted villains.
I felt this was demonstrated right away with Ultron's discomfort at not having a body, finding it strange and wrong. Maybe he could have remained safely on the internet, but he felt compelled to have a physical presence.
I know Ultron always makes a back-up of himself in the comics, but originally Ultron is a very stereotypical robot villain and is treated as just a computer program. I'm not sure an actual AI could simply be duplicated just by copy/pasting, anymore than a human can copy themselves, or that one could split itself and its focus between thousands of bodies at once, again any more than a human could.
Nah, in the comics he's not a stereotypical robot villain. He hides under a facade of being a robot but it's obvious there's underlying psychosis and a yearning for a family. AoU went a bit further with that approach with his craziness, and slightly altered him to mirror Stark.
More modern stories are like that, yeah - New Avengers, Annihilation: Conquest, etc. A:C wasn't that great overall, but it did have an interesting element that I think they might have borrowed for the film:
Lots of parallels leaping up between film Vision and comics Warlock.
But I was thinking of some much older Ultron stories, when his goal is replacing humanity with robotic drones because ''All flesh must die!''
well I thought the absorbing man fight was a huge let down, he was basically fighting a cloud, and the military fights were kind of boring to me besides when he smashed up the tanks. Ang Lee's Hulk felt more like 85% drama to 15% action, and the drama part was IMO really lame. I just remember Hulk jumping around a lot and looking sad. The CGI also was pretty inferior IMO. Incredible Hulk seemed to be a lot more faster paced, and I really liked the Steve Rogers-esque Emil Blonsky fight even though it didn't last long, it was a nice preview of what Cap is capable of.
I'm definitely with you on the Blonsky thing - I was absolutely thinking 'they've gotta have Cap do stuff like that.'
Wasn't he? My mistake then.