As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

[Agents of SHIELD] Old thread abandoned due to Hydra infiltration.

19394959698

Posts

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    jdarksun wrote: »
    So is it ever OK to kill female characters? Is it always "problematic"? And if so, how is that not problematic in and of itself?
    It's not OK when the death of the female character exists solely to motivate a male.

    But I don't think that was the case here.
    Ros is a perfectly capable character in her own right; she was unwittingly on the wrong side, was confronted about it, and made the heroic call. We've already been shown that Malick knows that Ros is getting friendly with SHIELD, and he's teased Ward killing her (or Coulson) for weeks.

    Simmons is stronger than Fitz. She straight up tells him to let HYDRA kill her, and she means it. Simmons didn't crack; Fitz did. And even so, his plan is to go in and bring back Will (and not the monster).

    Dunno. Regardless, I'm disappointed in how that plot was resolved.
    Yeah it is obvious that if either of the two is going to crack, it's Fitz. And Simmons tried to kill Ward, whereas Fitz didn't go through with it. Ward has his hooks really deep into Fitz, I mean he started crying and begging the moment he realized what was going to happen, whereas Simmons has frozen Ward out. He knows all this! It's obvious which one to torture to make the other talk. Gender is irrelevant in this equation.

    Regina Fong on
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Every time Powers Boothe speaks, I have the urge to buy some high class whiskey.

  • kaceypkaceyp we stayed bright as lightning we sang loud as thunderRegistered User regular
    Holy shit at
    that opening scene. Was not expecting that.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Hey guys, you need to spoiler this shit. Spelling out the entirety of a plot point and then just putting the actual character name in spoiler tags is not sufficient, because anybody who is minimally intelligent can read between the lines.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Incidentally, I love that Fury Road exists in the MCU.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Betting on Coulson bringing back the thing and being the Big Bad for the second half season.

    Ending with him having to either be put down or leading him to retire, this resolving the "what, he's alive?" problem for the movies.

  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Betting on Coulson bringing back the thing and being the Big Bad for the second half season.

    Ending with him having to either be put down or leading him to retire, this resolving the "what, he's alive?" problem for the movies.
    Funny, I am thinking it will be Ward.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    It'd be interesting if Coulson pulls an Angelus.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Regarding the beginning of this episode:
    Ward killed Ros to hurt Coulson, but Malick sent Ward to kill Ros because she was now a liability to Hydra instead of a dupe. This is not a case of fridging. Ros was suddenly a very real and very specific threat to Hydra operations that was allied to SHIELD.

  • LaCabraLaCabra MelbourneRegistered User regular
    i think fridging is more to do with the writers killing a woman to motivate a man, not the characters in the story

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    I think that
    Female heroes have a tendency to die to motivate the people around them or because a villain is furthering their plans. Female hero deaths are typically plot development, and have the woman being unable to avoid her death.

    Male heroes have a tendency to die heroically saving the day, or at least trying to. Male hero deaths are typically plot resolution, and typically have the man sacrificing himself in an effort to save others.

    Not all female hero deaths are fridging or problematic. But a certain kind of female hero death is, even when it's not fridging, especially when it's used frequently.

    Shadowhope on
    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    It's a few similar but distinct concepts.
    - Creating shallow, one-note female supporting cast members to be killed off - often in really needlessly gruesome ways - for a hit of quick, lazy drama. The original Fridge, the one the device is named after, was Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's fridge, where he found the crushed and mangled body of his girlfriend in the second issue of his comic. What was she like as a character? Well, she was blonde, and she had big tits.

    - Depowering female hero characters or killing them off in a more permanent way than male heroes. This used to happen a LOT, often for reasons that had dick and balls to do with storytelling and everything to do with power struggles between creators ("I hate Bob, the creator of this popular character, but I'll never get permission to kill the character off, so I'll kill off the character's girlfriend in the big crossover and ruin Bob's carefully-planned story!"). The rest of the time it was out-and-out sexism ("a girl Green Lantern? Not on my watch!"). The book Marvel: The Untold Story is fucking full of fascinating anecdotes like these.

    - The exploitative use of sexual violence on female heroes for shock value ("Who Rapes Jubilee?, part 12"), and the fact that it basically never happens to male heroes. Also, while it's not rape per se, comics in the 70s and 80s had weird problems with stories where, like, cosmic godlike entities would randomly make female characters pregnant against their will ("You, Mary Jane, are the lucky mortal that STAR-PIMP has chosen to bear his immortal seed!").

    The key element here, the big take-away, is that none of this has anything to do with the internal logic of the work. Even in a terrible, fuck-awful story, it is perfectly logical that a rapist rapes. The question is why someone thought to put a rapist there and whether that was a good call. And the answer to that is necessarily subjective and relies a lot on the level of trust you feel the work has earned.

    Do I feel that SHIELD did any of that tonight? Fuck no. Do I think it's worth being aware of? Fuck yes.

    rRwz9.gif
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Well put, Jacob.

  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not exactly a feminist scholar, so. . .
    I'll be happy as long as she doesn't die in a domestic setting, while taken unawares or unable to fight in back in any kind of effective way, and as long as her death has implications beyond "Phil is really angry at Ward now."

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    You're sure you haven't seen this episode?

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning LoserdomRegistered User regular
    One thing that irritated me.
    When they were listing off who Ward murdered, they neglected to mention Victoria Hand, when that was the kill that was the big reveal. I guess it could be argued that they never found out if it was Garrett or Ward who did it, but at the least he was an accomplice.

  • Apothe0sisApothe0sis Have you ever questioned the nature of your reality? Registered User regular
    Phil Coulson isn't just a name, it is a question.

  • Brainiac 8Brainiac 8 Don't call me Shirley... Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    It's a few similar but distinct concepts.
    - Creating shallow, one-note female supporting cast members to be killed off - often in really needlessly gruesome ways - for a hit of quick, lazy drama. The original Fridge, the one the device is named after, was Green Lantern Kyle Rayner's fridge, where he found the crushed and mangled body of his girlfriend in the second issue of his comic. What was she like as a character? Well, she was blonde, and she had big tits.

    - Depowering female hero characters or killing them off in a more permanent way than male heroes. This used to happen a LOT, often for reasons that had dick and balls to do with storytelling and everything to do with power struggles between creators ("I hate Bob, the creator of this popular character, but I'll never get permission to kill the character off, so I'll kill off the character's girlfriend in the big crossover and ruin Bob's carefully-planned story!"). The rest of the time it was out-and-out sexism ("a girl Green Lantern? Not on my watch!"). The book Marvel: The Untold Story is fucking full of fascinating anecdotes like these.

    - The exploitative use of sexual violence on female heroes for shock value ("Who Rapes Jubilee?, part 12"), and the fact that it basically never happens to male heroes. Also, while it's not rape per se, comics in the 70s and 80s had weird problems with stories where, like, cosmic godlike entities would randomly make female characters pregnant against their will ("You, Mary Jane, are the lucky mortal that STAR-PIMP has chosen to bear his immortal seed!").

    The key element here, the big take-away, is that none of this has anything to do with the internal logic of the work. Even in a terrible, fuck-awful story, it is perfectly logical that a rapist rapes. The question is why someone thought to put a rapist there and whether that was a good call. And the answer to that is necessarily subjective and relies a lot on the level of trust you feel the work has earned.

    Do I feel that SHIELD did any of that tonight? Fuck no. Do I think it's worth being aware of? Fuck yes.
    Identity Crisis: the story that turned joke villain Dr. Light into rapey raperson because they thought rape would make the story better? What a stupid story that was. :?

    3DS Friend Code - 1032-1293-2997
    Nintendo Network ID - Brainiac_8
    PSN - Brainiac_8
    Steam - http://steamcommunity.com/id/BRAINIAC8/
    Add me!
  • CururuCururu Registered User regular
    I was pleased to see that
    Mack was using a shotgun when he rescued Coulson. Sadly, it was too dark to see if it was also an axe.

  • jefe414jefe414 "My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter" Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Thanks for explaining WTF everyone was talking about regarding 'Fridge' . All I had going through my head was Crystal Skull.
    latest episode
    Wasn't really all that thrilled with the way Coulson outsmarted Ward to find the base. let's look up this other surviving brother that we've barely mentioned? it's OBVIOUS from interviewing the original members that's the key! Way too convenient. Ward was spot on reading people, as usual. Seeing Gemma as changed and super tough, going after Fitz 'You're still scared of me'. Perfect. I am surprised Ward went along with Boothe's request to go through the portal though. There must be some angle I'm not seeing.

    jefe414 on
    Xbox Live: Jefe414
  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Well, of course there has to be some convenience because it's an hour long show. And
    I didn't think that the connection was specious because it's painfully obvious that just about everything Ward does is filtered through his twisted idea of family. That's been consistent since the twist in season 1. It's not that Ward sees himself as a hero, but as a protective/vindictive big brother who does what's necessary to serve those he loves while removing those that are a threat to who he views as family.

    That's why he doesn't lie to or directly harm those that were part of the original Bus team outside of Coulson and May, whom he feels not only betrayed him, but have clouded the minds of the others (most notably Daisy). He's evil enough to let others hurt them, but to his way of thinking, he always gives them an out. It's not his fault that they don't follow his wisdom and kindness until it's too late.

    So, going after the younger brother makes perfect sense because it strikes at who Ward is as a person. The well is where Grant Ward, psychopath, was born. And exploiting it makes all the sense in the world. Really, the interview scene didn't provide new information about Ward (outside of the new detail Fitz provided), but rather it served as a way to spell out Ward's motivation for those that haven't really been paying attention since the middle of season 1. I spent the entire time nodding to what was being said because it was merely a recap of what we already knew.

  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    god damn it what an episode. some really great emotional moments, from that opening to FitzSimmons, just so much good stuff in there.
    the Coulson/Ros scenes have always been great, the two have such great chemistry and the opening was one of if not the best of the bunch. they play off each other so well that it hurts all the more that Ros is dead. also, gotta love that Tinder reference, and Phil being clueless on it.

    once again Fitz brings in the big guns acting-wise. "I'm not strong enough to live in a world that doesn't have you in it", man that was a great line and the delivery was just utterly amazing.

    i really want to see how far they go with this Agents of Stargate thing. how long before Fitz comes up with a crazy theory about the pyramids? "Looks guys I know it sounds crazy but i'm pretty sure they were actually built to store grain... for aliens."

    loving what they've done with Mack too. he's been kinda in the background but still ever present. his reluctance to be a part of SHIELD and his need to keep Coulson in check all seem to have been building to him taking charge. start the countdown till he loses an eye. :P

  • ForarForar #432 Toronto, Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    One hell of an episode, got me good with the Fury Road reference, that opening, simultaneously can't wait for the next one, but don't want to wait for the inevitable cliffhanger to resolve either.

    Speculation for the next one;
    I foresee Fitz and Coulson weeding through the Red Shirts on the team, coming down to the two of them, Ward, Will, and The Entity. How that plays out could go any number of ways.

    First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    THIS FUCKING SHOW
    1) Ros opening the ketchup for Phil. <3 Small things like that, and their banter, really made them as a couple. They had amazing chemistry for being in just a handful of scenes together. Really sad to see her go. =(

    2) The refrigerator analysis is really shallow. She was obviously her own character and served a ton of purpose in the narrative beyond "motivate Coulson". Characters dying to motivate other characters is a thing - it happens in real life - and in and of itself doesn't denote "friging". Merely identifying a pattern or similarity does not constitute meaningful analysis (someone forward this to TV Tropes).

    3) I doubt Coulson will be the one bringing the evil thing back. It will likely either be Ward (after a turn back to good) or, my pick, Fitz (because he would be the most heartbreaking choice).

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.

    I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.

    I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.

    I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
  • 411Randle411Randle Librarian Oook.Registered User regular
    AV Club seems to want this to be a different show than it is. Complaining that it left the Coulson-Price romance to go back to secret agencies trying to open portals to other worlds is ignoring what the show is actually about. And comparing it to "similar scenes that have also happened in other shows involving Joss Whedon" is stupid. It's like complaining about every Aaron Sorkin show having people walking and talking.

    1) Silence 2) Books must be returned by the last date shown 3) Do not interfere with the nature of causality
  • Wraith260Wraith260 Happiest Goomba! Registered User regular
    there was a lingering moment this week where Ward went beyond 'love-to-hate villain' status and straight into 'he needs to die NOW!' status. however, by the end of the episode i was right back at wanting to see what hijinks he'll get up to next. such an awesome villain and played so well too.


  • jefe414jefe414 "My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter" Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.

    I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.

    I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.

    Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?

    Xbox Live: Jefe414
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    jefe414 wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.

    I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.

    I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.

    Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?

    It's Purple Man.

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Kilgrave?

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • Regina FongRegina Fong Allons-y, Alonso Registered User regular
    I'm not really a Mac fan. Seems like his job is to be disagreeable and support whoever is currently making terrible decisions.

    Ward is fucking great though and disliking him is basically coming out and saying that you have bad opinions about this show.

  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    Fitz
    His promise to Simmons to come back along with Will just redlined my "Will is the Entity" meter.

    Black lives matter.
    Law and Order ≠ Justice
    ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
    Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
    xu257gunns6e.png
  • jefe414jefe414 "My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter" Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered User regular
    Kilgrave?

    That makes more sense.

    Xbox Live: Jefe414
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    I thought Mac was great this episode (but I also consistently love Mac).
    He basically straight up told the Inhuman guys that "you have superpowers, it's the right thing to do and you should do it".

    Also:
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Fitz
    His promise to Simmons to come back along with Will just redlined my "Will is the Entity" meter.

    1000000% agree with this.
    "This planet doesn't have weather, it has moods".

  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    I thought Mac was great this episode (but I also consistently love Mac).
    He basically straight up told the Inhuman guys that "you have superpowers, it's the right thing to do and you should do it".

    Also:
    GONG-00 wrote: »
    Fitz
    His promise to Simmons to come back along with Will just redlined my "Will is the Entity" meter.

    1000000% agree with this.
    "This planet doesn't have weather, it has moods".

    Mood's a thing for cattle and loveplay!

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Wraith260 wrote: »
    there was a lingering moment this week where Ward went beyond 'love-to-hate villain' status and straight into 'he needs to die NOW!' status. however, by the end of the episode i was right back at wanting to see what hijinks he'll get up to next. such an awesome villain and played so well too.


    God yes. I love thinking back to the beginning.

    "Bland ward. Such a Mary Sue!"

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    jefe414 wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    AV Club did not like this episode, also dislikes Ward, also dislikes Mac.

    I guess I can see Mac, but how can you dislike Ward? He is the perfect love-to-hate villain. Pulpy, charismatic, and slimy as fuck. Probably the best MCU villain who isn't Fisk or Snuffcarcass.

    I'd really love to see a Netflix'd Ward, though.

    Is.. .is that a weird pet name for Loki or something?
    murdercorpse
    you mean

    autono-wally, erotibot300 on
    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • kaceypkaceyp we stayed bright as lightning we sang loud as thunderRegistered User regular
    It really hit me while watching this episode that I honestly find this to be one of the most consistently satisfying shows on TV right now.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    I'm not really a Mac fan. Seems like his job is to be disagreeable and support whoever is currently making terrible decisions.

    Ward is fucking great though and disliking him is basically coming out and saying that you have bad opinions about this show.

    Mac is the conservative voice of the show. Incredulous hesitance is his thing. He likes the status quo and is the most resistant to change. Which is slowly changing, as we saw at the end of the episode. He's the necessary grounded foil to all the gung-ho crazy in the show.

    And Ward is the best, period. I haven't seen all the Whedon shows, but he's one of my favorite characters from the Whedon brain trust. He's evil and crazy, but also understandable. The way he thinks is consistent and even a bit predictable. And he's just fun to watch because he's legitimately dangerous in this world.

    Like others have said, a Netflix Ward would be absolutely awesome/frightening.

  • KashaarKashaar Low OrbitRegistered User regular
    How the hell has nobody remarked on
    that badass skydive
    yet? Phil, my man.

    Indie Dev Blog | Twitter | Steam
    Unreal Engine 4 Developers Community.

    I'm working on a cute little video game! Here's a link for you.
This discussion has been closed.