Alan Sugar resigns. More importantly, somebody is actually talking about the House of Lords. Can we talk some more about the House of Lords and what an absolute mess it is as a concept?
My first guess as to why no-one talks about the House of Lords is because 95% of the populous has no idea what it does.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
Alan Sugar resigns. More importantly, somebody is actually talking about the House of Lords. Can we talk some more about the House of Lords and what an absolute mess it is as a concept?
My first guess as to why no-one talks about the House of Lords is because 95% of the populous has no idea what it does.
The idea of an upper house that doesn't change as often as the lower house, acting as a "big picture" restraining influence on the lower house's transient impulses isn't inherenty bad.
But we should probably take a look at how they're selected.
As a tangent, I'd totally be in favour of an elected Upper House that is still called House of Lords and you get to be called a Lord for your term.
He has another year to run as London Mayor, so I think he requested nothing that would put too much on his plate. After that he'll be shunted into something weighty, as befits his status as a titan of modern politics or something. Given the irony overload many of the Tory cabinet positions seem to operate under I imagine it'll be Minister for Monogamy or something.
Alan Sugar resigns. More importantly, somebody is actually talking about the House of Lords. Can we talk some more about the House of Lords and what an absolute mess it is as a concept?
My first guess as to why no-one talks about the House of Lords is because 95% of the populous has no idea what it does.
The idea of an upper house that doesn't change as often as the lower house, acting as a "big picture" restraining influence on the lower house's transient impulses isn't inherenty bad.
But we should probably take a look at how they're selected.
As a tangent, I'd totally be in favour of an elected Upper House that is still called House of Lords and you get to be called a Lord for your term.
Agreed on both points. I just can't abide by a democratic system wherein members are not elected but chosen. It's so incredibly anachronistic almost to the point of embarrassment. It'll be a good long while before any discussion is had on the subject though. I can't think of anything less the Conservatives would want to discuss in a majority Government than HoL reforms.
Hmm, the rumours that he's being set up to succeed Cameron might be a thing.
Before the election, before a majority Conservative Government seemed likely, Boris was almost a dead-cert to become the next leader. Perhaps as soon as within a year but that all went out the window last week. You don't become an MP whilst still serving a term as London Mayor unless you have eyes for the big prize. Coupled with Cameron's 'no third term' arrangement, things seem to be heading in no other direction that Boris as Leader, albeit with a slightly longer time frame than previously thought.
It's likely now to be more of a baton passing, rather than Boris snatching it as well.
I don't think Cameron's top choice is Boris even but if Conservatives hadn't have secured enough seats, even to form a coalition, and we were headed for Miliband as PM, there would have been a hell of a backlash, not just against Cameron but all the top level Tories in Government. Boris could then waltz in from City Hall with the record of winning two elections as London Mayor and that weird popular buzz that seems to follow him everywhere. May and Osborne wouldn't have stood much of a chance, I reckon.
But that's all changed now. It's up to the bosses within the Conservative party to decide what they want to do now.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Alan Sugar resigns. More importantly, somebody is actually talking about the House of Lords. Can we talk some more about the House of Lords and what an absolute mess it is as a concept?
My first guess as to why no-one talks about the House of Lords is because 95% of the populous has no idea what it does.
The idea of an upper house that doesn't change as often as the lower house, acting as a "big picture" restraining influence on the lower house's transient impulses isn't inherenty bad.
But we should probably take a look at how they're selected.
As a tangent, I'd totally be in favour of an elected Upper House that is still called House of Lords and you get to be called a Lord for your term.
I will caution that an elected Senate doesn't necessarily act any more in the public interest than the Lords does.
the Lords is weak at obstruction because it has no democratic legitimacy; if it were elected, it would be rightly pointed out that there is no obvious reason for the Commons to dominate the executive
functional constituencies or appointment of a large share of positions by the shadow cabinet might make more sense for applying restraining influences without gaining legitimacy
House of Lords elected by PR share in the general election. Actual HoL members elected by the parties themselves once the number of seats have been allotted to the parties. There, job done. The general public don't have another election to moan about voting in and smaller parties get their fair share.
there would definitely be a problem with divided legitimacy then
Yup. You can't really reform the HoL without reforming the awful FptP system for the HoC as well. But since there's no appetite for reform of either in the two main parties it won't happen.
Most people don't actually like party nominees for proportional voting, because they don't feel like they have a say in who actually makes it into office, particularly when a crony keeps getting elected. This is common in other countries, and you get crappy results like in Turkey where the elected representative of a city might live 200 miles away, so they don't actually care much about what happens to that city.
Better is STV, kind of like a localized proportial system, where you still vote for actual candidates. For example, in a 0.5 million person population center, the top 5 candidates (out of probably 10-20 total candidates) by vote count are elected into office. This assumes that anyone can run, and they all run at the same time, no primaries.
wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
edited May 2015
As I said in the last thread, the problem with STV is that it encourages competition between candidates from the same parties, which leads to very locally orientated politics all about shaking hands at funerals and feck all about policy. Why do you think the historically two largest parties in Ireland are virtually indistinguishable in ideological/policy terms? (And never really stood for anything anyway, other than their respective set of vested interests).
I'm glad in a way. I've kind of found myself missing Farage's obnoxious twattishness and bloke-isms. I don't like the guy or what he stands for but in a weird way it'll be nice to have him back. He is, at least, one big political figure left in the UK who isn't a fucking Tory, even if he used to be and is still close to it.
But yeah, he's UKIP's only real card. I bet they all collectively shat themselves. "Who now? Carswell? Come back, Nige, all is forgiven!"
I'm glad in a way. I've kind of found myself missing Farage's obnoxious twattishness and bloke-isms. I don't like the guy or what he stands for but in a weird way it'll be nice to have him back. He is, at least, one big political figure left in the UK who isn't a fucking Tory, even if he used to be and is still close to it.
But yeah, he's UKIP's only real card. I bet they all collectively shat themselves. "Who now? Carswell? Come back, Nige, all is forgiven!"
I think you're suffering from some weird political form of Stockholm Syndrome personally.
As I said in the last thread, the problem with STV is that it encourages competition between candidates from the same parties, which leads to very locally orientated politics all about shaking hands at funerals and feck all about policy. Why do you think the historically two largest parties in Ireland are virtually indistinguishable in ideological/policy terms? (And never really stood for anything anyway, other than their respective set of vested interests).
Had a chat with my Wicklow-bound brother the other day, and his observation is that the original Fianna Fail/Fine Gael split is basically the Pro-Treaty/Anti-Treaty sides in the civil war.
Probably totally irrelevant to the present political scene, but it's an interesting factoid.
I'm glad in a way. I've kind of found myself missing Farage's obnoxious twattishness and bloke-isms. I don't like the guy or what he stands for but in a weird way it'll be nice to have him back. He is, at least, one big political figure left in the UK who isn't a fucking Tory, even if he used to be and is still close to it.
But yeah, he's UKIP's only real card. I bet they all collectively shat themselves. "Who now? Carswell? Come back, Nige, all is forgiven!"
I think you're suffering from some weird political form of Stockholm Syndrome personally.
Possibly. I just think my brain's still misfiring from the election result.
Alan Sugar's picked a weird time to quit the Labour Party, citing "Anti-Enterprise policies". If he objected to where Milliband stood on that, why hang around? And now why not wait and see if a more business-friendly leader is selected?
In a way it's almost a disappointment Farage has stayed.
They took a fair chunk of the vote on a protest platform, with bugger all substantial policy.
Now would be the time to be thrashing out actual policy commitments and trying to solidify their protest voters into a solid base, and there are ample ways they could do that. Farage does not seem the type to do the necessary cat-herding.
Not that I have much in the way of patience for the politics of the typical ukip voter, but it would be interesting to see the emergence of another credible party, especially one that is right wing with an interest in pushing for electoral reform.
In a way it's almost a disappointment Farage has stayed.
They took a fair chunk of the vote on a protest platform, with bugger all substantial policy.
Now would be the time to be thrashing out actual policy commitments and trying to solidify their protest voters into a solid base, and there are ample ways they could do that. Farage does not seem the type to do the necessary cat-herding.
Not that I have much in the way of patience for the politics of the typical ukip voter, but it would be interesting to see the emergence of another credible party, especially one that is right wing with an interest in pushing for electoral reform.
What I want from UKIP is for them to be less insane and electorally popular enough to split the Tory vote.
Alan Sugar's picked a weird time to quit the Labour Party, citing "Anti-Enterprise policies". If he objected to where Milliband stood on that, why hang around? And now why not wait and see if a more business-friendly leader is selected?
My only guess is that he was promised something post election to keep him sweet. With that no longer an option, he's outta there.
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EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
From a distance![/Jasper Carrot]
My first guess as to why no-one talks about the House of Lords is because 95% of the populous has no idea what it does.
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The idea of an upper house that doesn't change as often as the lower house, acting as a "big picture" restraining influence on the lower house's transient impulses isn't inherenty bad.
But we should probably take a look at how they're selected.
As a tangent, I'd totally be in favour of an elected Upper House that is still called House of Lords and you get to be called a Lord for your term.
Hmm, the rumours that he's being set up to succeed Cameron might be a thing.
He has another year to run as London Mayor, so I think he requested nothing that would put too much on his plate. After that he'll be shunted into something weighty, as befits his status as a titan of modern politics or something. Given the irony overload many of the Tory cabinet positions seem to operate under I imagine it'll be Minister for Monogamy or something.
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Oh, the name of his rap album leaked?
Agreed on both points. I just can't abide by a democratic system wherein members are not elected but chosen. It's so incredibly anachronistic almost to the point of embarrassment. It'll be a good long while before any discussion is had on the subject though. I can't think of anything less the Conservatives would want to discuss in a majority Government than HoL reforms.
Before the election, before a majority Conservative Government seemed likely, Boris was almost a dead-cert to become the next leader. Perhaps as soon as within a year but that all went out the window last week. You don't become an MP whilst still serving a term as London Mayor unless you have eyes for the big prize. Coupled with Cameron's 'no third term' arrangement, things seem to be heading in no other direction that Boris as Leader, albeit with a slightly longer time frame than previously thought.
It's likely now to be more of a baton passing, rather than Boris snatching it as well.
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How much of that is an act, though? He could well be the Pennywise of politics.
But that's all changed now. It's up to the bosses within the Conservative party to decide what they want to do now.
I will caution that an elected Senate doesn't necessarily act any more in the public interest than the Lords does.
A panacea it is not.
functional constituencies or appointment of a large share of positions by the shadow cabinet might make more sense for applying restraining influences without gaining legitimacy
'tis the fault for hanging on to an indefensible hereditary lords
like everyone's vote being worth a random amount depending on where they happen to live
so FPTP then?
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Yup. You can't really reform the HoL without reforming the awful FptP system for the HoC as well. But since there's no appetite for reform of either in the two main parties it won't happen.
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Better is STV, kind of like a localized proportial system, where you still vote for actual candidates. For example, in a 0.5 million person population center, the top 5 candidates (out of probably 10-20 total candidates) by vote count are elected into office. This assumes that anyone can run, and they all run at the same time, no primaries.
CGP Grey does a good video about STV.
What a tit.
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But yeah, he's UKIP's only real card. I bet they all collectively shat themselves. "Who now? Carswell? Come back, Nige, all is forgiven!"
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I think you're suffering from some weird political form of Stockholm Syndrome personally.
Had a chat with my Wicklow-bound brother the other day, and his observation is that the original Fianna Fail/Fine Gael split is basically the Pro-Treaty/Anti-Treaty sides in the civil war.
Probably totally irrelevant to the present political scene, but it's an interesting factoid.
Possibly. I just think my brain's still misfiring from the election result.
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They took a fair chunk of the vote on a protest platform, with bugger all substantial policy.
Now would be the time to be thrashing out actual policy commitments and trying to solidify their protest voters into a solid base, and there are ample ways they could do that. Farage does not seem the type to do the necessary cat-herding.
Not that I have much in the way of patience for the politics of the typical ukip voter, but it would be interesting to see the emergence of another credible party, especially one that is right wing with an interest in pushing for electoral reform.
What I want from UKIP is for them to be less insane and electorally popular enough to split the Tory vote.
My only guess is that he was promised something post election to keep him sweet. With that no longer an option, he's outta there.