So far I've heard of Jaina and Arthas, but I'm sure there are more. They apparantly get 550% of your spellpower as attack power. I read that Arthas was melee swinging things for 220k.
I'll just quote Komma from Altered Time since he's on top of this already.
- 2T18 triggers only from AM casts, not ticks.
- Pets inherit 500% of spellpower as attack power and spell power.
- 4T18 applies a buff from pets. Each pet generates a separate buff and have no duration. They are removed when the corresponding pet despawns.
- 4T18 Buff name is "Temporal Power" :
- Temporal Power stacks multiplicatively, ie. 2 pets up --> 2 buff --> (1.1*1.1 - 1.0) = 21% increased damage.
Also he mentions Tyrande and Sylvanas as other summons so I'd assume the list is pretty much any Warcraft NPC of note and probably a few joke ones like Johnny Awesome or some such.
Viskod on
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Yo you guys, seriously. Dhal is being a little angry but you all are kind of attacking him like this is the official forums where you ignore reason and just be goosey about it.
Balance is not perfect. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what? Dhal is right. As stupid as some of the decisions Blizz makes sometimes damage balance is actually remarkably close for how DIFFICULT that is to accomplish.
1) 20% difference isn't "remarkably close". It's not entirely unreasonable difference, but it isn't close.
2) Dhalphir's argument, as he himself put it, is "balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be", yet he has provided no evidence to support this absolute and prescient declaration.
a 20% spread between the absolute top and the absolute bottom is remarkably close. Pretending it isn't is disingenuous.
And if you look at Warcraftlogs, the spread becomes much lower when you use real fight data.
Well that's just from having one buff active from having one summoned npc. If you get another proc and have 2 npcs then it's a 21% buff instead of a 10% buff and so on for every npc summon proc you get.
I think the summons stay around for like 40 to 50 seconds.
I'll just quote Komma from Altered Time since he's on top of this already.
- 2T18 triggers only from AM casts, not ticks.
- Pets inherit 500% of spellpower as attack power and spell power.
- 4T18 applies a buff from pets. Each pet generates a separate buff and have no duration. They are removed when the corresponding pet despawns.
- 4T18 Buff name is "Temporal Power" :
- Temporal Power stacks multiplicatively, ie. 2 pets up --> 2 buff --> (1.1*1.1 - 1.0) = 21% increased damage.
Also he mentions Tyrande and Sylvanas as other summons so I'd assume the list is pretty much any Warcraft NPC of note and probably a few joke ones like Johnny Awesome or some such.
That's the coolest set bonus ever even if the actual numbers are crap.
But there are a series of decisions with the spec that certainly makes you wonder what they think they want from it. I'm baffled that they dismissed all concerns about the spec's dps prior to the expansion hit. I don't understand how you can acknowledge an entire tier of talents (the level 45 ones) as being awful and yet do nothing about it. How can you contemplate a 4 set bonus that asks a spec that typically has poor mobility, to move around? The scaling issues which seem to pop up every expansion now.
I'm trying to figure out why you're so hung up on the Level 45 talents. The Liquid Magma talent, by itself, has shown me the utility of Totemic Projection; especially on fights like Operator or Beastmaster, where I can move it to hit the largest number of targets. The Level 30 talents are more garbage. I haven't touched any of them since we were working on Ko'ragh and I was trying to help with raid mobility.
I think he was talking about Elemental? I don't know anything about shaman though
For talents, it's spec-agnostic. Especially the ones he is griping about; which are largely utilitarian (totems with a low cooldown get their cooldown reset; totems get more health; totems can be moved on a short cooldown). The Level 30 talents are a small AOE snare, an AOE slow/snare removal, or Frost Shock roots the target.
Well that's just from having one buff active from having one summoned npc. If you get another proc and have 2 npcs then it's a 21% buff instead of a 10% buff and so on for every npc summon proc you get.
I think the summons stay around for like 40 to 50 seconds.
2T18 - Arcane Missiles has a 5% chance to create a Time Anomaly, summoning a random hero through time to assist you in battle for 10 sec.
Oh I didn't even notice the updated duration when I quoted that. Well, crap. That's unfortunate.
Look, all I know is that there is going to be a Gul'Dan kill where Thrall will literally get the killing blow on a raid boss because he was summoned by a mage.
It would be totally worth the loss of dps for me if when you had two or more mages in a raid group with these set bonuses any summoned Sylvanas npcs went out of their way to attack any summoned Arthas Menethil npcs.
The thing I do not agree with though is that we do not know better than the devs. You can be the sole owner of more spreadsheets than any human being could ever handle (blizz having access to more info) but you still cannot compete with millions of people with more time to break it down than you could ever imagine (the players). I might not be a developer, but I think it should be obvious to be good at what you do you need to be capable of admitting what I just said is the case. The players, especially THIS playerbase, can be right and more often than not ARE going to find things the balance team did not intend that completely skew numbers. This is primarilly why balance is never done and it is always going to be a roller coaster ride. The best you can do is make the ups and downs small as shit.
I think this here is something that's really important.
There are people in the theorycrafting community that have been playing both wow and their class for longer than the people who are handling class balance have worked for blizzard. The theorycrafting community produces more man hours of class analysis than blizzard could ever hope to produce simply because it'd be impossible for them to hire that many people. I don't think there's any secret information or spreadsheets that blizzard has access too that they don't; the tools we have for raid analysis are pretty fantastic, I don't think blizzard has access to any info they don't already have. And yet blizzard still has the tendency to write them off every time they have a major concern, and it's pretty stupid because when the community comes to the consensus that 'x class is under-performing badly' or 'these nerfs are not the right way to nerf this class' they're right. This is just another instance of how the developer attitude at blizzard needs to change.
But there are a series of decisions with the spec that certainly makes you wonder what they think they want from it. I'm baffled that they dismissed all concerns about the spec's dps prior to the expansion hit. I don't understand how you can acknowledge an entire tier of talents (the level 45 ones) as being awful and yet do nothing about it. How can you contemplate a 4 set bonus that asks a spec that typically has poor mobility, to move around? The scaling issues which seem to pop up every expansion now.
I'm trying to figure out why you're so hung up on the Level 45 talents. The Liquid Magma talent, by itself, has shown me the utility of Totemic Projection; especially on fights like Operator or Beastmaster, where I can move it to hit the largest number of targets. The Level 30 talents are more garbage. I haven't touched any of them since we were working on Ko'ragh and I was trying to help with raid mobility.
---
Managed to kill H-Blackhand within about 6 attempts last night. It was a really good feeling! We then went back into Highmaul to work on some achievements and get a few people their AotC for Imperator. I was able to finish the night by getting the last shards I needed for Val'anyr; so I should be able to get the mace tonight(!). All in all, a great night.
The problem with the 45 talents is that they are really fucking bad. They're so bad that Watcher has openly said
A number of the points above regarding talents are very valid, and there's definitely room for more differentiation through that avenue. And the Call/Persistence/Projection row is terrible.
Totemic Projection is useful only if you are playing a specific spec and take a specific talent, and it's worthless otherwise? That's pretty bad. The real issue isn't that the talent row is bad, it's that their response to changing it was something like 'you should only expect to see talent changes as part of a major patch' and we've had TWO major patches and zero changes.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Yo you guys, seriously. Dhal is being a little angry but you all are kind of attacking him like this is the official forums where you ignore reason and just be goosey about it.
Balance is not perfect. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what? Dhal is right. As stupid as some of the decisions Blizz makes sometimes damage balance is actually remarkably close for how DIFFICULT that is to accomplish.
1) 20% difference isn't "remarkably close". It's not entirely unreasonable difference, but it isn't close.
2) Dhalphir's argument, as he himself put it, is "balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be", yet he has provided no evidence to support this absolute and prescient declaration.
He has provided more evidence than your arguement which is sounding more bitter and resentful than factual.
20% is a maximum extreme. Please look at any other game and find me a maximum extreme among a large number of playstyles (classes/specs, whatever other games do to have different things needing to be balanced) that has a smaller disparity than that. Yeah and not games with like 4 dps classes with no specs.
You are sitting here dismissing his arguement while ignoring reality. I would be shocked if more than 2 people here fall into the group of people who actually are directly affected by this imbalance. Sure we might think we are, but often its your play that creates low DPS and you have enough room to improve just by playing better. And even then, disparities fluctuate based on levels of play. Some classes come close to their max at bad levels of play, others come nowhere near it. So that disparity might not even be SEEN because of the play of the user. Which is what makes the arguement so silly because you shouldn't be concerned with DPS tiers when your placement in your raid is more influenced by your performance than your balance.
As for the "ever can or will be" well, if all you can do is keep picking at that half sentence to prove your point, you have no right questioning things like evidence. Thats just nit picking words not talking about the actual subject of balance. I think you know what he meant. Youjust won't admit it.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
It seems like the chances of getting two 5% procs on arcane missiles casts (not hits) in less than 10 seconds is extremely low.
Yea, they're going to either need it to proc off individual arcane missile hits instead of cast, or increase the proc chance, because 5% is extremely low particularly when your 4P relies entirely on your 2P proccing.
Edit: Watching Rikh from Nihilium sit on a training dummy for 5+ minutes now having received 0 procs from the new set.
Yo you guys, seriously. Dhal is being a little angry but you all are kind of attacking him like this is the official forums where you ignore reason and just be goosey about it.
Balance is not perfect. Yes it can be annoying. But guess what? Dhal is right. As stupid as some of the decisions Blizz makes sometimes damage balance is actually remarkably close for how DIFFICULT that is to accomplish.
1) 20% difference isn't "remarkably close". It's not entirely unreasonable difference, but it isn't close.
2) Dhalphir's argument, as he himself put it, is "balance is as near to perfect as it ever can or will be", yet he has provided no evidence to support this absolute and prescient declaration.
He has provided more evidence than your arguement which is sounding more bitter and resentful than factual.
20% is a maximum extreme. Please look at any other game and find me a maximum extreme among a large number of playstyles (classes/specs, whatever other games do to have different things needing to be balanced) that has a smaller disparity than that. Yeah and not games with like 4 dps classes with no specs.
You are sitting here dismissing his arguement while ignoring reality. I would be shocked if more than 2 people here fall into the group of people who actually are directly affected by this imbalance. Sure we might think we are, but often its your play that creates low DPS and you have enough room to improve just by playing better. And even then, disparities fluctuate based on levels of play. Some classes come close to their max at bad levels of play, others come nowhere near it. So that disparity might not even be SEEN because of the play of the user. Which is what makes the arguement so silly because you shouldn't be concerned with DPS tiers when your placement in your raid is more influenced by your performance than your balance.
As for the "ever can or will be" well, if all you can do is keep picking at that half sentence to prove your point, you have no right questioning things like evidence. Thats just nit picking words not talking about the actual subject of balance. I think you know what he meant. Youjust won't admit it.
If you averaged out a 20% dps difference from top to bottom across all 24 dps specs you'd have less than a 1% difference between any two adjacent specs. It's a very tight bucket, much tighter than it was back at the game's onset especially considering they've gone from balancing 4 dps specs to 24.
I would question this being only applicable to PvP because up until very recently, just about every major patch has had a clear "best spec" that was miles ahead of others in the same roles. And yes, I'm talking PvE.
Edit - Also, there's actually 11 classes, but everyone hates Hunters, so I can see how you might make that mistake.
The largest gap I can find within a class is about ~5k DPS between an Arcane Mage and a Frost Mage on single target DPS, working out to about an 11% difference. Certainly more than enough to recommend any raiding mage go Fire, but hardly to the decree of difference there once was, where you may as well not even bother coming to a raid if you didn't want to play the FOTM Mage spec.
And if you look at the other classes, the gaps are much smaller. Hunters, for example, find that all three of their specs are within +/- 1k DPS of one another at ilevel 685. Warlocks see much the same situation. Feral and Balance druids are almost identical DPS.
I bolded the part that I think you may have missed in my comment there. And no worries about forgetting monks exist, it happens, I'm used to it after playing one for a year and a half now.
Uhh, warlocks doing 2 million dps ST while the next best was doing 1 million by cheesing the fuck out of AoE, which was the end of MoP. Similar issues were seen in just about every major patch and expac until WoD came around. To say that Blizzard knows how to balance the game based on past experiences mean you didn't experience the same past that I did. Anything Pre-Wrath for example was a shitfest of "be a mage, NO BE A ROGUE, k be a warlock or a mage, fuck paladins are broken as hell now be that". And anything pre-WoD was "dont be this spec, its currently dogshit".
I do agree that the DPS specs are much closer now than they have ever been, and hopefully it either stays that way or gets even closer.
So, really, whatever the devs stopped doing at the start of WoD, they need to continue to not do, as far as spec balance is concerned, because their previous track record for this is pretty fucking shoddy.
I think Blizzard is still pretty bad at tuning how dps specs scale with gear. They always seem to balance at specific gear levels and then try to adjust in the major patches.
The current problem with ret paladins is exactly because of bad scaling. They were very good early on in Highmaul but seem to just drop further and further behind.
Shadow priests used to have a long history with horrible scaling but in WoD its the opposite. The CoP single target spec scales as poorly as ret paladins but Auspicious Spirits is scaling insanely well to the point where people talk about shadow becoming FotM in Hellfire Citadel.
Fire mages are another big outlier these days but I don't know enough about them to say if its also a scaling issue.
All I've been told and read is that Fire mages are in the same state they've always been: crit heavy, so really awesome late in a patch/expansion, but crap early due to undergearing.
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
All I've been told and read is that Fire mages are in the same state they've always been: crit heavy, so really awesome late in a patch/expansion, but crap early due to undergearing.
and Blizzard always does the same thing - buffs them early to accelerate the scaling, then nerfs them late to fix it. repeat each xpac.
Buffs the wrong thing too. Pyroblast does not need to do even more of my damage thank you, I'd like Fireball to do more than tickle someone.
A big part of why Fire is so silly in terms of damage now is the broken 2p though. You can literally double whatever your Combustion was going to be if there's a second target to hit. That includes Prismatic Crystal. It takes luck (which is why I don't bother, I fucking hate relying on insane luck to get any damage done) but you can go
Cast Crystal
Build up your Ignite on it (+30% to what it would otherwise have been)
Double Inferno Blast the Crystal
Combustion on the boss immediately after (doubles what Combustion would have been on the Crystal)
Inferno Blast the boss so Combustion hits the crystal as well
So Combustion does 30% more damage than normal, doubled by the 2p trick, then an extra few seconds of bonus 130% damage from the end of the Crystal. There's a reason they're removing this 2p come 6.2.
You've never been able to spread to the Prismatic Crystal with Inferno Blast. But yes, you can spread Ignites from it for higher Combustion DoTs.
It does take an insane amount of luck, and also you need really really high Haste when using the double Inferno Blast for the lowest GCD possible. So that means either Bloodlust or maybe while Darmacs Unstable Talisman is currently active. Ideally both.
Val'anyr GET! Now I can streamline my Ulduar 25 runs to: FL > XT > Kologarn > (Auriaya) > Keepers > General > Yogg.
Anyone know if I can unlock the hallway to General/Yogg if I avoid Auriaya? Obviously, I would still down her if she pathed by while I was running between Keepers.
This just freed up more time for my baby Pally, which was parked again for about 10 days. I need to give him some more focus.
I think you can, but she dies in seconds and unlocks the teleport so you can skip all of the Mimiron trash so it's better just to kill her
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
If you only need to kill Yogg 25, I believe you can still do the whole raid up to Yogg-Saron in 10-man mode to speed things up, then exit and switch to 25-man. That's what I was doing for a few months before getting bored of farming for that mount.
TurksonNear the mountains of ColoradoRegistered Userregular
Why isn't Karabor the main alliance city? It's large and gorgeous.
oh h*ck
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Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure it originally was going to be, with Bladespire Citadel being the Horde equivalent. I'm not sure why they chose otherwise.
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FairchildRabbit used short words that were easy to understand, like "Hello Pooh, how about Lunch ?"Registered Userregular
As I recall, they changed their minds about Karabor and Bladespire fairly late in Beta because they had trouble with the flight paths going over Garrisons and causing a mountain of lag.
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Also he mentions Tyrande and Sylvanas as other summons so I'd assume the list is pretty much any Warcraft NPC of note and probably a few joke ones like Johnny Awesome or some such.
a 20% spread between the absolute top and the absolute bottom is remarkably close. Pretending it isn't is disingenuous.
And if you look at Warcraftlogs, the spread becomes much lower when you use real fight data.
Hoping they buff the proc rate on the anomalies then, they sound quite cool.
I think the summons stay around for like 40 to 50 seconds.
That's the coolest set bonus ever even if the actual numbers are crap.
For talents, it's spec-agnostic. Especially the ones he is griping about; which are largely utilitarian (totems with a low cooldown get their cooldown reset; totems get more health; totems can be moved on a short cooldown). The Level 30 talents are a small AOE snare, an AOE slow/snare removal, or Frost Shock roots the target.
Look, all I know is that there is going to be a Gul'Dan kill where Thrall will literally get the killing blow on a raid boss because he was summoned by a mage.
I think this here is something that's really important.
There are people in the theorycrafting community that have been playing both wow and their class for longer than the people who are handling class balance have worked for blizzard. The theorycrafting community produces more man hours of class analysis than blizzard could ever hope to produce simply because it'd be impossible for them to hire that many people. I don't think there's any secret information or spreadsheets that blizzard has access too that they don't; the tools we have for raid analysis are pretty fantastic, I don't think blizzard has access to any info they don't already have. And yet blizzard still has the tendency to write them off every time they have a major concern, and it's pretty stupid because when the community comes to the consensus that 'x class is under-performing badly' or 'these nerfs are not the right way to nerf this class' they're right. This is just another instance of how the developer attitude at blizzard needs to change.
The problem with the 45 talents is that they are really fucking bad. They're so bad that Watcher has openly said Totemic Projection is useful only if you are playing a specific spec and take a specific talent, and it's worthless otherwise? That's pretty bad. The real issue isn't that the talent row is bad, it's that their response to changing it was something like 'you should only expect to see talent changes as part of a major patch' and we've had TWO major patches and zero changes.
He has provided more evidence than your arguement which is sounding more bitter and resentful than factual.
20% is a maximum extreme. Please look at any other game and find me a maximum extreme among a large number of playstyles (classes/specs, whatever other games do to have different things needing to be balanced) that has a smaller disparity than that. Yeah and not games with like 4 dps classes with no specs.
You are sitting here dismissing his arguement while ignoring reality. I would be shocked if more than 2 people here fall into the group of people who actually are directly affected by this imbalance. Sure we might think we are, but often its your play that creates low DPS and you have enough room to improve just by playing better. And even then, disparities fluctuate based on levels of play. Some classes come close to their max at bad levels of play, others come nowhere near it. So that disparity might not even be SEEN because of the play of the user. Which is what makes the arguement so silly because you shouldn't be concerned with DPS tiers when your placement in your raid is more influenced by your performance than your balance.
As for the "ever can or will be" well, if all you can do is keep picking at that half sentence to prove your point, you have no right questioning things like evidence. Thats just nit picking words not talking about the actual subject of balance. I think you know what he meant. Youjust won't admit it.
Yea, they're going to either need it to proc off individual arcane missile hits instead of cast, or increase the proc chance, because 5% is extremely low particularly when your 4P relies entirely on your 2P proccing.
Edit: Watching Rikh from Nihilium sit on a training dummy for 5+ minutes now having received 0 procs from the new set.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
So going from losing dps to a proc so insignificant it might as well not even exist is still an improvement.
DPS gain of 0.7%, coolness gain of 1000%.
Which is great, cause Tyrande, Sylvanas, Jaina are each doing 40k total.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
So what your saying is, is Arthas is bugged and will be toned back to match the others shortly.
Working as intended, probably.
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I bolded the part that I think you may have missed in my comment there. And no worries about forgetting monks exist, it happens, I'm used to it after playing one for a year and a half now.
Uhh, warlocks doing 2 million dps ST while the next best was doing 1 million by cheesing the fuck out of AoE, which was the end of MoP. Similar issues were seen in just about every major patch and expac until WoD came around. To say that Blizzard knows how to balance the game based on past experiences mean you didn't experience the same past that I did. Anything Pre-Wrath for example was a shitfest of "be a mage, NO BE A ROGUE, k be a warlock or a mage, fuck paladins are broken as hell now be that". And anything pre-WoD was "dont be this spec, its currently dogshit".
I do agree that the DPS specs are much closer now than they have ever been, and hopefully it either stays that way or gets even closer.
So, really, whatever the devs stopped doing at the start of WoD, they need to continue to not do, as far as spec balance is concerned, because their previous track record for this is pretty fucking shoddy.
R*SC: BladeCruiser
Check out my GTAV-PC custom race tracks inspired by real life racing circuits!
I think the answer to that argument is simple:
See what the devs are saying about it on June 20th.
If I lose even a single lovable, fluffy feather, I'm going to be a very cross owl.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
The current problem with ret paladins is exactly because of bad scaling. They were very good early on in Highmaul but seem to just drop further and further behind.
Shadow priests used to have a long history with horrible scaling but in WoD its the opposite. The CoP single target spec scales as poorly as ret paladins but Auspicious Spirits is scaling insanely well to the point where people talk about shadow becoming FotM in Hellfire Citadel.
Fire mages are another big outlier these days but I don't know enough about them to say if its also a scaling issue.
and Blizzard always does the same thing - buffs them early to accelerate the scaling, then nerfs them late to fix it. repeat each xpac.
A big part of why Fire is so silly in terms of damage now is the broken 2p though. You can literally double whatever your Combustion was going to be if there's a second target to hit. That includes Prismatic Crystal. It takes luck (which is why I don't bother, I fucking hate relying on insane luck to get any damage done) but you can go
Cast Crystal
Build up your Ignite on it (+30% to what it would otherwise have been)
Double Inferno Blast the Crystal
Combustion on the boss immediately after (doubles what Combustion would have been on the Crystal)
Inferno Blast the boss so Combustion hits the crystal as well
So Combustion does 30% more damage than normal, doubled by the 2p trick, then an extra few seconds of bonus 130% damage from the end of the Crystal. There's a reason they're removing this 2p come 6.2.
Fire is silly.
It does take an insane amount of luck, and also you need really really high Haste when using the double Inferno Blast for the lowest GCD possible. So that means either Bloodlust or maybe while Darmacs Unstable Talisman is currently active. Ideally both.
Anyone know if I can unlock the hallway to General/Yogg if I avoid Auriaya? Obviously, I would still down her if she pathed by while I was running between Keepers.
This just freed up more time for my baby Pally, which was parked again for about 10 days. I need to give him some more focus.
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