That's my standard Zeratul build these days. Regen Master can be swapped for, well, anything you want really. They're all good talents. Block if vs autoattack heroes. Everything else is fine. Really really like Regen Master though.
The last two talent tiers are probably the odd ones out. Most people run Double Bombs/Rewind. Gives you more FT procs, does a lot of damage. I'm personally a fan of Rending Cleave/Nexus Blades though. Rending Cleave gives some nice aoe damage, and I honestly prefer Nexus Blades over Rewind. I like having a stable damage boost all the time, vs a huge spiky burst every 60 seconds. Also because Double Bombs/Rewind is a lot to manage, so this is easier, while still retaining high overall damage. Up to you on that one, both are fine.
Stoneskin, as odd a pick as that is, can be quite clutch depending on the matchup. I was vs a Falstad/Illidan/Butcher/Zagara/Tyrande, so yeaaaaah I kinda needed Stoneskin. It's good! Don't count it out. But only take it if you REALLY need it.
Yesssss. That's really good news. Tyrande's Overflowing Light buff was a good first step, would be nice to see that expanded on.
Back during early alpha, the only supports were Tassadar, Tyrande, Uther, and Malfurion so there was an even split between healing focused support and non-healing focused support. Tass and Tyrande haven't really been adapted to the fact that every support added since then is a healing centric support.
"When shield expires, it heals for 50% of its remaining value"
That's actually a really elegant solution... even at a higher % kept as converted health... like super simple. Makes it easy for blizzard to tune numbers wise and gives him actual healing potential, the ability to top off allies away from combat and motivation to shield well during combat.
"When shield expires, it heals for 50% of its remaining value"
That's actually a really elegant solution... even at a higher % kept as converted health... like super simple. Makes it easy for blizzard to tune numbers wise and gives him actual healing potential, the ability to top off allies away from combat and motivation to shield well during combat.
Dude, tweet that at Browder.
Um, that wouldn't enable Tass to heal at all. It would be a fairly minor ability for out of combat, but wouldn't in any way help him do the support role in combat, where it often wouldn't do anything.
0
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
"When shield expires, it heals for 50% of its remaining value"
That would be insanely overpowered, as the shield is mitigation and utterly prevents damage from being dealt (which is one thing) whereas healing regains health that has already been dealt. It has been proven in medium after medium that mitigation and recovery are entirely seperate beasts, and if you make mitigation cause major recovery then you are going to have some problems.
For one, you would have the issue of "How does this differentiate between shields cast by Tass and other shields?" because I can tell you that Johanna with indestructible would be nigh unkillable if a Tass shield would cause her own shield to heal her as well, especially with amplified healing.
Basically every other form of direct mitigation like a shield is on things that are decidedly not direct support characters. Really, Tass needs a direct healing basic ability with a talent that would grant a shield in order for him to be in line with other healers.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Ok seriously though... if they altered Tass' shield to heal for X% after the shield expires it'd be really easy to bring it in line so that his overall mitigation in combat is a little higher than other healers, but his overall healing is lower.
NUMBERS!
The following heroes heal for X amount at level 20 untalented (base)
Rehgar - 1300 across three heroes, 9s cooldown
Malfurion - 1029 over 10s, 7s cooldown
Uther - 935 instantly, 12s cooldown
Tass SHIELDS - 1000 for 8s, 8s cooldown.
Now if they even left the numbers as is and he healed for 100% of the remaining shield, he'd have a heal and cooldown inline with the current meta healers... (ASSUMING! That they can code it so that it only affects Tass's shield and doesn't stack with other shields, and that it can't heal structures, only shield them.... because yes, that'd be janky)
And for the conversation of other games having tried mitigation vs healing, I can only think MMO's and they have a lot of other factors involved and aren't the same at all (I can't speak for dota or lol mit/heal maths).
To make the shield feel different from a heal though they would probably have to tweak the numbers to that the shield portion is higher than other supports' heals and the healed % is lower, so that it feels like there's some variation and it's not just a heal.... OR strip the healing on minions to a different % than heroes (that said, aba's shield heals minions and heroes for the same amount I think).
If all the numbers are flatlined to be the same, I don't see the difference between uther hitting a focused target with 1000hp heal before they get pounded on vs tass shielding the target for 1000hp in the same circumstance.
I think the above conversion of even 90% shield to heals would be fantastic and (let's be honest) the rest of his kit still isn't spectacular... bottom 3 worst AA + Shield/heal + a decent aoe + a solo escape + both ults are good (if situational in walls case).
I really don't understand the Tassadar shield idea - possibly I'm misunderstanding it. No offence but it seems like it would do absolutely nothing to help him play a full support role.
Supports need to be able to heal the person taking damage - as Tempostorm's Dreadnaught put it, support allows you to fix mistakes. If Tassadar's shield only heals at the end, for the amount remaining on the shield, then a huge amount of the time it's going to do nothing because you cats the shield on the person taking damage and the shield then gets destroyed because they are taking damage. His shield healing would only be useful if you use it on someone as they disengage - which would be nice, and would give you a bit of healing after a team fight to keep the team going, but it wouldn't in any way make him take the full support role.
I think the idea is the heal at the end would be based off the full value of the Shield, not the remaining value.
Or in other words, that'd be a 1000 shield/500 heal on an 8 second cooldown, at level 20. Maybe 50% is actually too high. Could just go with a flat value that scales with level. Either way, you get the idea. Could also do the opposite and have the shield heal on application, rather than expiration.
Another idea I had is similar to Abathur's Regenerative Microbes talent. Shield an ally, they get a heal over time.
They could also massively buff the Leeching Plasma talent.
Also been playing a bit of Falstad lately in QM. He's really fun! And a nice change from the meta Heroes.
yeeeeeee
I've been playing the AA build and the Mage-stad build. Both are pretty good and have merits, I think. Ability build is probably better vs a more range-y kinda comp, or vs a comp where you want to maintain distance.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Ok seriously though... if they altered Tass' shield to heal for X% after the shield expires it'd be really easy to bring it in line so that his overall mitigation in combat is a little higher than other healers, but his overall healing is lower.
NUMBERS!
The following heroes heal for X amount at level 20 untalented (base)
Rehgar - 1300 across three heroes, 9s cooldown
Malfurion - 1029 over 10s, 7s cooldown
Uther - 935 instantly, 12s cooldown
Tass SHIELDS - 1000 for 8s, 8s cooldown.
Now if they even left the numbers as is and he healed for 100% of the remaining shield, he'd have a heal and cooldown inline with the current meta healers... (ASSUMING! That they can code it so that it only affects Tass's shield and doesn't stack with other shields, and that it can't heal structures, only shield them.... because yes, that'd be janky)
And for the conversation of other games having tried mitigation vs healing, I can only think MMO's and they have a lot of other factors involved and aren't the same at all (I can't speak for dota or lol mit/heal maths).
To make the shield feel different from a heal though they would probably have to tweak the numbers to that the shield portion is higher than other supports' heals and the healed % is lower, so that it feels like there's some variation and it's not just a heal.... OR strip the healing on minions to a different % than heroes (that said, aba's shield heals minions and heroes for the same amount I think).
If all the numbers are flatlined to be the same, I don't see the difference between uther hitting a focused target with 1000hp heal before they get pounded on vs tass shielding the target for 1000hp in the same circumstance.
I think the above conversion of even 90% shield to heals would be fantastic and (let's be honest) the rest of his kit still isn't spectacular... bottom 3 worst AA + Shield/heal + a decent aoe + a solo escape + both ults are good (if situational in walls case).
Ok, let me break it down like this.
You approach it from a "OH SHIT HIT BUTTONS!" perspective, you are getting one result.
You approach it from a "I KNOW WE ARE ABOUT TO FIGHT BECAUSE I AM SO FUCKING PRO YOU GUYS" then Tass can put a shield on someone who is going to be targeted either to discourage people from attacking or to per-emptively 'heal' his target, then he can shoot another shield off during the fight. If you give a good leeway of say, 4 seconds, then Tass would have his heal being effective at 0 seconds, 4 seconds, and 12 seconds (assuming a 14 second engagement)
Each other character would have to wait for damage to occur first, then heal. So let's say they are on the top of their game and heal at the 1 second engagement mark for maximum efficiency. It works out to, in a similar time frame as tass:
Rehgar: 2 heals (all instant, spread out)
Malfurion: 2 heals (over time of 10 seconds)
Uther: 2 heals (all instant)
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I am really familiar with it because it was a perspective that took wow like, 6 fucking years to realize.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I mained resto druid, wasn't relevant to me :-) just hots all day err day.
But you would think that with math they could sort that out to add healing to his kit and balance it properly.... hahaha I almost kept a straight face typing that... poor blizzard
@Maledictus just trying to think of how to add healing to his kit so he's a viable solo support
If you go from the Pre-fight angle, Tass is doing what literally every other healer can do: heal up targets before a fight. Shields healing upon expiration is not OP. If anything, they fail to really solve the Tassadar issue.
That's my point - the ability as described doesn't do anything to fix Tassadars problem at all. If they want him to become a full support he needs a second ability that provides defense / cc (aka root, blinding winds, pixie dust, root) or a straight up second heal. Secondly he needs an ult that has the same healing impact as Divine Shield / Ancestral / tranquility / jugs.
This is really an issue that blizzard have created themselves - the escalating arms race between poke and healing has pushed support to be more and more of a hard healer. The way the game is balanced right now, to be a full support you need to be able to heal a *lot* - there isn't room for a solo semi-support role currently.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
He puts them over their max health prior to a fight, then he can continue to use his abilities during the fight.
And I am not saying that Tass doesn't need fixing, he does. But you can't treat mitigation the same as restoration.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
E is the intangible ability, which would be insane if you could cast it on anyone.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
+1
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
"yeah, let's just give this butcher 3 seconds of invulnerability and invisibility that lets him walk into your back line and maybe even heals him for a good amount"
I dunno. personally I would just make his shield more powerful somehow, probably via much lower cooldown and lower mana cost.
Also maybe healing spells in general shouldn't be as strong? Either make them a bit weaker and compensate with buffs in character stats and other abilities or make healing spells more expensive so that you can't keep people up forever without drinking like you can right now.
While the shield is active, the recipient heals a scaling amount of HP per second; this gives Tassadar a proper heal, which is all he really needs to be viable. I'd love to also see Resonation dropped to a dramatically lower level, where it isn't competing with much, much better talents like Dimensional Warp and Second Strike. Or, hell, just make Resonation a baseline effect on his E.
I've previously written about how Blizzard could easily make Tyrande into a viable solo healer: reduce the cooldown on Light of Elune (by 2-3 seconds) and allow Starfall to heal allies in the area of effect for an amount equal to the damage it also deals to enemies.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It would probably be easier to make Tass a specialist than to keep his shield and make it in-line with the other healers.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
He puts them over their max health prior to a fight, then he can continue to use his abilities during the fight.
And I am not saying that Tass doesn't need fixing, he does. But you can't treat mitigation the same as restoration.
You vastly overestimate how long his shields last. He can preshield precisely ONE hero prior to a fight: the cooldown is equal to the duration. In the actual teamfight, precious few shields are going to even last the whole duration. If they don't then Tass gets some value out of them rather than the mana going to waste.
Posts
Bruh I gotchu covered: http://www.heroesfire.com/hots/talent-calculator/zeratul#rrOv
That's my standard Zeratul build these days. Regen Master can be swapped for, well, anything you want really. They're all good talents. Block if vs autoattack heroes. Everything else is fine. Really really like Regen Master though.
The last two talent tiers are probably the odd ones out. Most people run Double Bombs/Rewind. Gives you more FT procs, does a lot of damage. I'm personally a fan of Rending Cleave/Nexus Blades though. Rending Cleave gives some nice aoe damage, and I honestly prefer Nexus Blades over Rewind. I like having a stable damage boost all the time, vs a huge spiky burst every 60 seconds. Also because Double Bombs/Rewind is a lot to manage, so this is easier, while still retaining high overall damage. Up to you on that one, both are fine.
Stoneskin, as odd a pick as that is, can be quite clutch depending on the matchup. I was vs a Falstad/Illidan/Butcher/Zagara/Tyrande, so yeaaaaah I kinda needed Stoneskin. It's good! Don't count it out. But only take it if you REALLY need it.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Five level gap
NOOOOOOO!
I need Grunty.
XBL: InvaderJims
Bnet: Pudgestomp#11153
Maybe next week, but they're going to Gamescom so that seems iffy.
Yesssss. That's really good news. Tyrande's Overflowing Light buff was a good first step, would be nice to see that expanded on.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Back during early alpha, the only supports were Tassadar, Tyrande, Uther, and Malfurion so there was an even split between healing focused support and non-healing focused support. Tass and Tyrande haven't really been adapted to the fact that every support added since then is a healing centric support.
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Maybe a talent to make shields permanent and refresh at X% capacity every few seconds.
That's actually a really elegant solution... even at a higher % kept as converted health... like super simple. Makes it easy for blizzard to tune numbers wise and gives him actual healing potential, the ability to top off allies away from combat and motivation to shield well during combat.
Dude, tweet that at Browder.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Shield + Reinforce Structure = ?
Minion Bulwark would likely need to be tweaked.
Um, that wouldn't enable Tass to heal at all. It would be a fairly minor ability for out of combat, but wouldn't in any way help him do the support role in combat, where it often wouldn't do anything.
That would be insanely overpowered, as the shield is mitigation and utterly prevents damage from being dealt (which is one thing) whereas healing regains health that has already been dealt. It has been proven in medium after medium that mitigation and recovery are entirely seperate beasts, and if you make mitigation cause major recovery then you are going to have some problems.
For one, you would have the issue of "How does this differentiate between shields cast by Tass and other shields?" because I can tell you that Johanna with indestructible would be nigh unkillable if a Tass shield would cause her own shield to heal her as well, especially with amplified healing.
Basically every other form of direct mitigation like a shield is on things that are decidedly not direct support characters. Really, Tass needs a direct healing basic ability with a talent that would grant a shield in order for him to be in line with other healers.
you can easily win with her vs a team with a pure healer because she helps buff damage so well.
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NUMBERS!
The following heroes heal for X amount at level 20 untalented (base)
Rehgar - 1300 across three heroes, 9s cooldown
Malfurion - 1029 over 10s, 7s cooldown
Uther - 935 instantly, 12s cooldown
Tass SHIELDS - 1000 for 8s, 8s cooldown.
Now if they even left the numbers as is and he healed for 100% of the remaining shield, he'd have a heal and cooldown inline with the current meta healers... (ASSUMING! That they can code it so that it only affects Tass's shield and doesn't stack with other shields, and that it can't heal structures, only shield them.... because yes, that'd be janky)
And for the conversation of other games having tried mitigation vs healing, I can only think MMO's and they have a lot of other factors involved and aren't the same at all (I can't speak for dota or lol mit/heal maths).
To make the shield feel different from a heal though they would probably have to tweak the numbers to that the shield portion is higher than other supports' heals and the healed % is lower, so that it feels like there's some variation and it's not just a heal.... OR strip the healing on minions to a different % than heroes (that said, aba's shield heals minions and heroes for the same amount I think).
If all the numbers are flatlined to be the same, I don't see the difference between uther hitting a focused target with 1000hp heal before they get pounded on vs tass shielding the target for 1000hp in the same circumstance.
I think the above conversion of even 90% shield to heals would be fantastic and (let's be honest) the rest of his kit still isn't spectacular... bottom 3 worst AA + Shield/heal + a decent aoe + a solo escape + both ults are good (if situational in walls case).
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
I'll solo queue and give those a try before I jump in a match with PA's and ruin their games lol
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Supports need to be able to heal the person taking damage - as Tempostorm's Dreadnaught put it, support allows you to fix mistakes. If Tassadar's shield only heals at the end, for the amount remaining on the shield, then a huge amount of the time it's going to do nothing because you cats the shield on the person taking damage and the shield then gets destroyed because they are taking damage. His shield healing would only be useful if you use it on someone as they disengage - which would be nice, and would give you a bit of healing after a team fight to keep the team going, but it wouldn't in any way make him take the full support role.
again, possibly I'm misunderstanding the concept?
Or in other words, that'd be a 1000 shield/500 heal on an 8 second cooldown, at level 20. Maybe 50% is actually too high. Could just go with a flat value that scales with level. Either way, you get the idea. Could also do the opposite and have the shield heal on application, rather than expiration.
Another idea I had is similar to Abathur's Regenerative Microbes talent. Shield an ally, they get a heal over time.
They could also massively buff the Leeching Plasma talent.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
yeeeeeee
I've been playing the AA build and the Mage-stad build. Both are pretty good and have merits, I think. Ability build is probably better vs a more range-y kinda comp, or vs a comp where you want to maintain distance.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
Ok, let me break it down like this.
You approach it from a "OH SHIT HIT BUTTONS!" perspective, you are getting one result.
You approach it from a "I KNOW WE ARE ABOUT TO FIGHT BECAUSE I AM SO FUCKING PRO YOU GUYS" then Tass can put a shield on someone who is going to be targeted either to discourage people from attacking or to per-emptively 'heal' his target, then he can shoot another shield off during the fight. If you give a good leeway of say, 4 seconds, then Tass would have his heal being effective at 0 seconds, 4 seconds, and 12 seconds (assuming a 14 second engagement)
Each other character would have to wait for damage to occur first, then heal. So let's say they are on the top of their game and heal at the 1 second engagement mark for maximum efficiency. It works out to, in a similar time frame as tass:
Rehgar: 2 heals (all instant, spread out)
Malfurion: 2 heals (over time of 10 seconds)
Uther: 2 heals (all instant)
I do understand your math though... mitigation affects overall throughput in a perspective that I hadn't thought of.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
But you would think that with math they could sort that out to add healing to his kit and balance it properly.... hahaha I almost kept a straight face typing that... poor blizzard
@Maledictus just trying to think of how to add healing to his kit so he's a viable solo support
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Not enough lasers
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
This is really an issue that blizzard have created themselves - the escalating arms race between poke and healing has pushed support to be more and more of a hard healer. The way the game is balanced right now, to be a full support you need to be able to heal a *lot* - there isn't room for a solo semi-support role currently.
And I am not saying that Tass doesn't need fixing, he does. But you can't treat mitigation the same as restoration.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
Also maybe healing spells in general shouldn't be as strong? Either make them a bit weaker and compensate with buffs in character stats and other abilities or make healing spells more expensive so that you can't keep people up forever without drinking like you can right now.
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I've previously written about how Blizzard could easily make Tyrande into a viable solo healer: reduce the cooldown on Light of Elune (by 2-3 seconds) and allow Starfall to heal allies in the area of effect for an amount equal to the damage it also deals to enemies.