It's... Hmm. So it was really cool to look at physical things that are considered 'female' and realize 'wait, I can just...wear that. No one can stop me.' That was a really good feeling.
This is in a whole different league. It's something that's actually INSIDE of me, that I'm just feeling so much more 'correct', in a word. It's almost similar to when I was on anti-depressants but I'm not also having those feelings like my happiness is manufactured, which was a whole nother issue I had when I was on them.
Ahh, sorry, it's really hard to describe! But I want to!
It's been really interesting to see the changes happening even after two weeks and change of hormones. There's some physical stuff like softer skin and a sore chest but there's a lot of mental changes too. I've been a lot happier and seem to have just more emotion in general.
The biggest noticeable change (as well as the biggest difference between this and puberty) is that my sex drive had gone to 0.
The first big `ah! something's happening!' for me was the sudden appearance of luminous veins that had not been apparent when my skin was thicker. Not a great one, admittedly, except that it was a flaw my mum had which was a weird kind of affirmation. Of course I bruise like a peach now, keep finding mystery bruises that I don't remember why my leg is blotching purple today.
Some people might take that unironically, given how popular "dead black kid" seems to be as a costume (not very popular, but still too popular). I'd guess that the only thing not making "dead trans person" a halloween costume is that "dead trans person" isn't a news item.
I think there is a contention that drag in general is not 'doing something wrong'; I don't know any but hear of trans people coming through drag as a stepping stone.
I will bet that there will be future trans identifying people who choose a Caitlyn costume to let out the trans a little, and maybe work something out.
If that person wears a Megyn Kelly costume instead, I'm not sure how it changed anything about any offensiveness.
The two big problems I have with drag is I've seen multiple drag queens try to claim that several trans women (especially at Stonewall) were drag queens and were actually just cis gay men.
The other problem which I think is a bit broader then the LGBTQA community is that every gay pride parade I've seen theking of the parade is usually a gay cis man and the queen is a drag queen who outside of their persona consider themselves cis. I think it just says a lot that a cis man "dressed up" as a woman is considered to be more deserving of the Queen role then lesbian, bi, asexual or trans women.
the thing with drag exclusively in the context of a halloween costume is that it's usually just haha man in a dress isn't this ridiculous and stupid?
But what makes that different to other drag?
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Blake TDo you have enemies then?Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.Registered Userregular
edited August 2015
Because there is a good chance there will be some dumb people who will say something along the lines of, "Oh look I'm just like <her deadname>, a <not her gender> in a dress"
The two big problems I have with drag is I've seen multiple drag queens try to claim that several trans women (especially at Stonewall) were drag queens and were actually just cis gay men.
The other problem which I think is a bit broader then the LGBTQA community is that every gay pride parade I've seen theking of the parade is usually a gay cis man and the queen is a drag queen who outside of their persona consider themselves cis. I think it just says a lot that a cis man "dressed up" as a woman is considered to be more deserving of the Queen role then lesbian, bi, asexual or trans women.
I feel weirdly strong about this.
I would argue this is an issue with drag culture rather than just cis men wearing dresses and makeup.
Because there is a good chance there will be some dumb people who will say something along the lines of, "Oh look I'm just like <her deadname>, a <not her gender> in a dress"
It is not exactly much different to boofheads paying out on unfeminine/dominant women saying theu are basically men or otherwise ridiculing them.
the thing with drag exclusively in the context of a halloween costume is that it's usually just haha man in a dress isn't this ridiculous and stupid?
Yeah, it feels like a tongue-in-cheek "isn't this WACKY?" sort of thing.
Unlike the Jenner costume, however, I wouldn't get on someone's case for it, because it would absolutely not surprise me if quite a few people did that as a way to experiment.
I wish I could place bets on things I can't measure, because future trans-identifying people are so going to pick a Jenner costume this year. As an experiment.
tbh I find it hard to see how a guy wearing a Caitlyn Jenner costume would be significantly different to any other kind of drag.
Drag is about individual empowerment which is why a lot of drag queens mimic " music Divas" or adopt Commanding take charge personalities. Its not mocking people for life choices. A guy wearing a Jenner outfit is making a specific statement about an individual .
Also it's weird to me that your tone implies dressing in women's clothes if that's your preference is somehow wrong unless you're trans. I am not talking about halloween costumes but in general the tone of your post is drag is either a way to find out your trans or mocking Trans people and that's not true.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
There was a really...shocking episode of Transparent about the crossover between drag culture and trans culture. And by crossover I mean people are fucking mean.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I wish I could place bets on things I can't measure, because future trans-identifying people are so going to pick a Jenner costume this year. As an experiment.
I was going to say something along this line...I am sure there a very large number of future trans and/or closet trans folk who jump at the opportunity to express themselves on the one night of the year where it is "OK". I will never say a word about going in drag for Halloween because you don't know if the person is getting their one chance a year to be who the really wish they were...consciously or unconsciously.
Heck, I am in the closet and going drag has crossed my mind from time to time. I would never pick a specific person though for fear someone would think I was playing it for laughs.
tbh I find it hard to see how a guy wearing a Caitlyn Jenner costume would be significantly different to any other kind of drag.
Drag is about individual empowerment which is why a lot of drag queens mimic " music Divas" or adopt Commanding take charge personalities. Its not mocking people for life choices. A guy wearing a Jenner outfit is making a specific statement about an individual .
So you don't think someone can wear a Caitlyn Jenner costume out of any kind of admiration? Is our fear of transphobia so over developed?
Also it's weird to me that your tone implies dressing in women's clothes if that's your preference is somehow wrong unless you're trans. I am not talking about halloween costumes but in general the tone of your post is drag is either a way to find out your trans or mocking Trans people and that's not true.
Yeah that is absolutely not borne out by what I said. If I have a tone, its that:
* trans women = women and someone dressing up as Caitlyn Jenner for Halloween is just the standard shit that happens for high-profile women at Halloween, not automatically transphobia. If we have a problem with this one case because its an assault on an individual's dignity, we have a problem with all Halloween drag, right? Or is it that some of you just don't believe Caitlyn Jenner has positive qualities that would cause someone to want to embody her, so it must be transphobia?
* drag is not innately bad, transphobia that often comes with drag is a separate thing to drag
* automatically assuming that wearing a Caitlyn Jenner costume means you are a transphobic bigot and evil is absolutely going to result in friendly fire on trans people/genderqueer people who are finding themselves.
Some people might take that unironically, given how popular "dead black kid" seems to be as a costume (not very popular, but still too popular). I'd guess that the only thing not making "dead trans person" a halloween costume is that "dead trans person" isn't a news item.
It might be selective memory on my part but I can't really think of any celebrity costumes that aren't actually costumes of a character famously played by that celebrity
So there's a pretty functional difference between costuming to represent a fictional character that is a cultural icon of a specific person, and costuming to imitate an actual person's identity, which might have something to do with the backlash?
I think there is a problem inherent in a Caitlin Jenner costume being worn by a cis male. That problem is that it is part of the "man in the dress is funny" genre of costume. That is not an association that it is healthy to encourage with trans women. I'm sure there might be some great healthy reason why someone would want to wear that costume. It doesn't really matter what your intent is though. It matters what message you communicate. To a person with transphobic leanings (most people who haven't thought about it or had exposure to trans people) that message is "ha ha, a man in a dress. Caitlin Jenner is a man in a dress". To trans people or people more educated on trans issues, the message is "I am a fucking shithead who is making things worse for everyone.
TLDR, don't wear a Caitlin Jenner costume. You will look like a jerk, no matter what.
It might be selective memory on my part but I can't really think of any celebrity costumes that aren't actually costumes of a character famously played by that celebrity
Yeah that is pretty selective, because you haven't accounted for political figures, musicians or Kardashians/reality TV stars, which is...a lot of costumes.
When Conan O'Brien went into a halloween store and found a mask of himself labeled "Ex late night talk show host" he flipped his shit at the poor girl working there (but in a funny way).
Wearing a Caitlin Jenner costume is in no real way in good taste. The entire point of it seems to be shock value and offensiveness, at least.
I think there is a problem inherent in a Caitlin Jenner costume being worn by a cis male. That problem is that it is part of the "man in the dress is funny" genre of costume. That is not an association that it is healthy to encourage with trans women.
And I agree mostly with what you're saying, but `man in the dress is funny' is still in 95% of the same area of bad association for trans women when its a cis guy dressing as any female celebrity - `man in a dress is an object of ridicule/its funny because gender is binary and fixed and this is wrong'.
So you need to separate
- drag where it comes from a place of admiration/gender role defiance
- drag where it comes from a desire to ridicule the idea of gender flexibility
- drag where it exists to ridicule the authority/strength of women (and sometimes men), using misgendering as a tool
Halloween drag (of Jenner or any woman) seems to be predominantly the latter two; I am not convinced that having such a tiny exclusion for trans celebrities actually makes the practice significantly better - its really narrow, and to my mind the core reasons for wanting a fix if anything only work to exclude trans women from the group women, rather than in any way fix the general shitty attitudes on display.
We talk about `white feminism' and how exclusionary that is. I think this is the rarely spotted `trans feminism', where we want to protect only ourselves from ridicule while ignoring every other person (woman) of high profile hat gets mocked on Halloween by silly geese using the patriarchal tool of ridiculing non-conformity to assigned gender roles.
TL;DR - IMHO the question shouldn't be `are Caitlyn Jenner costumes OK?' but `Are we OK with the offensive nature of most Halloween drag?'
ameybes on
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HawkstoneDon't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things. Somewhere outside of BarstowRegistered Userregular
I think there is a problem inherent in a Caitlin Jenner costume being worn by a cis male. That problem is that it is part of the "man in the dress is funny" genre of costume. That is not an association that it is healthy to encourage with trans women.
And I agree mostly with what you're saying, but `man in the dress is funny' is still in 95% of the same area of bad association for trans women when its a cis guy dressing as any female celebrity - `man in a dress is an object of ridicule/its funny because gender is binary and fixed and this is wrong'.
So you need to separate
- drag where it comes from a place of admiration/gender role defiance
- drag where it comes from a desire to ridicule the idea of gender flexibility
- drag where it exists to ridicule the authority/strength of women (and sometimes men), using misgendering as a tool
Halloween drag (of Jenner or any woman) seems to be predominantly the latter two; I am not convinced that having such a tiny exclusion for trans celebrities actually makes the practice significantly better - its really narrow, and to my mind the core reasons for wanting a fix if anything only work to exclude trans women from the group women, rather than in any way fix the general shitty attitudes on display.
We talk about `white feminism' and how exclusionary that is. I think this is the rarely spotted `trans feminism', where we want to protect only ourselves from ridicule while ignoring every other person (woman) of high profile hat gets mocked on Halloween by silly geese using the patriarchal tool of ridiculing non-conformity to assigned gender roles.
TL;DR - IMHO the question shouldn't be `are Caitlyn Jenner costumes OK?' but `Are we OK with the offensive nature of most Halloween drag?'
I still say it come down to intent. Halloween drag as introduction to or secret expression of being Trans good.
Halloween drag to make fun of or be derogatory to anyone bad.
Perhaps it could be make distinct in its execution? Like, literally just bloke in a frock vs actually really getting into it. Though even in the first case there would be exceptions. I once saw a bloke at PAX Prime in a full on floor length Princess Peach gown with sneakers and a baseball cap and that was super rad.
Her short bio in the article:
"A trailblazing trans woman in the hyper-masculine world of jungle/drum 'n' bass, Jordana survived a hate crime at an Ohio dance event, going on to thrive as a producer, DJ and advocate for transgender people. She is currently scoring the Free Cece documentary from Laverne Cox and working on a new album and return to touring later this year."
Posts
This is in a whole different league. It's something that's actually INSIDE of me, that I'm just feeling so much more 'correct', in a word. It's almost similar to when I was on anti-depressants but I'm not also having those feelings like my happiness is manufactured, which was a whole nother issue I had when I was on them.
Ahh, sorry, it's really hard to describe! But I want to!
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
The biggest noticeable change (as well as the biggest difference between this and puberty) is that my sex drive had gone to 0.
Tumblr | Twitter PSN: misterdapper Av by Satellite_09
dressing specifically as jenner leaves none
I will bet that there will be future trans identifying people who choose a Caitlyn costume to let out the trans a little, and maybe work something out.
If that person wears a Megyn Kelly costume instead, I'm not sure how it changed anything about any offensiveness.
But the idea of cis men dressing up in societally accepted women's clothes as being wrong for (nearly) any reason?
No. No it absolutely is not. Clothes is clothes. Smash gender roles. Wear what makes you feel good.
Just don't do it with the malicious intent to make fun of someone.
The other problem which I think is a bit broader then the LGBTQA community is that every gay pride parade I've seen theking of the parade is usually a gay cis man and the queen is a drag queen who outside of their persona consider themselves cis. I think it just says a lot that a cis man "dressed up" as a woman is considered to be more deserving of the Queen role then lesbian, bi, asexual or trans women.
I feel weirdly strong about this.
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Satans..... hints.....
I would argue this is an issue with drag culture rather than just cis men wearing dresses and makeup.
Transphobia is independent of drag
Unlike the Jenner costume, however, I wouldn't get on someone's case for it, because it would absolutely not surprise me if quite a few people did that as a way to experiment.
My body knew.
Tumblr | Twitter PSN: misterdapper Av by Satellite_09
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
That was not the case for me. The normal range for AMAB is between like 250-1100, I was at 1070ish
Drag is about individual empowerment which is why a lot of drag queens mimic " music Divas" or adopt Commanding take charge personalities. Its not mocking people for life choices. A guy wearing a Jenner outfit is making a specific statement about an individual .
Also it's weird to me that your tone implies dressing in women's clothes if that's your preference is somehow wrong unless you're trans. I am not talking about halloween costumes but in general the tone of your post is drag is either a way to find out your trans or mocking Trans people and that's not true.
I don't know what mine was and the doctor apparently didn't order T on the last panel I had, which is disappointing.
I was going to say something along this line...I am sure there a very large number of future trans and/or closet trans folk who jump at the opportunity to express themselves on the one night of the year where it is "OK". I will never say a word about going in drag for Halloween because you don't know if the person is getting their one chance a year to be who the really wish they were...consciously or unconsciously.
Heck, I am in the closet and going drag has crossed my mind from time to time. I would never pick a specific person though for fear someone would think I was playing it for laughs.
Interesting convo with the first trans director of transparent
Yeah that is absolutely not borne out by what I said. If I have a tone, its that:
* trans women = women and someone dressing up as Caitlyn Jenner for Halloween is just the standard shit that happens for high-profile women at Halloween, not automatically transphobia. If we have a problem with this one case because its an assault on an individual's dignity, we have a problem with all Halloween drag, right? Or is it that some of you just don't believe Caitlyn Jenner has positive qualities that would cause someone to want to embody her, so it must be transphobia?
* drag is not innately bad, transphobia that often comes with drag is a separate thing to drag
* automatically assuming that wearing a Caitlyn Jenner costume means you are a transphobic bigot and evil is absolutely going to result in friendly fire on trans people/genderqueer people who are finding themselves.
This is a remarkably jarring and astute point
So there's a pretty functional difference between costuming to represent a fictional character that is a cultural icon of a specific person, and costuming to imitate an actual person's identity, which might have something to do with the backlash?
A list of things, should you be of the gifting persuasion
TLDR, don't wear a Caitlin Jenner costume. You will look like a jerk, no matter what.
Wearing a Caitlin Jenner costume is in no real way in good taste. The entire point of it seems to be shock value and offensiveness, at least.
So you need to separate
- drag where it comes from a place of admiration/gender role defiance
- drag where it comes from a desire to ridicule the idea of gender flexibility
- drag where it exists to ridicule the authority/strength of women (and sometimes men), using misgendering as a tool
Halloween drag (of Jenner or any woman) seems to be predominantly the latter two; I am not convinced that having such a tiny exclusion for trans celebrities actually makes the practice significantly better - its really narrow, and to my mind the core reasons for wanting a fix if anything only work to exclude trans women from the group women, rather than in any way fix the general shitty attitudes on display.
We talk about `white feminism' and how exclusionary that is. I think this is the rarely spotted `trans feminism', where we want to protect only ourselves from ridicule while ignoring every other person (woman) of high profile hat gets mocked on Halloween by silly geese using the patriarchal tool of ridiculing non-conformity to assigned gender roles.
TL;DR - IMHO the question shouldn't be `are Caitlyn Jenner costumes OK?' but `Are we OK with the offensive nature of most Halloween drag?'
I still say it come down to intent. Halloween drag as introduction to or secret expression of being Trans good.
Halloween drag to make fun of or be derogatory to anyone bad.
http://www.mixmag.net/feature/20-women-who-shaped-the-history-of-dance-music/61
Currently blasting:
https://open.spotify.com/album/0d4Auey47bCTEIVMCF1VOz
By Jordana LeSesne AKA 1.8.7.
Her short bio in the article:
"A trailblazing trans woman in the hyper-masculine world of jungle/drum 'n' bass, Jordana survived a hate crime at an Ohio dance event, going on to thrive as a producer, DJ and advocate for transgender people. She is currently scoring the Free Cece documentary from Laverne Cox and working on a new album and return to touring later this year."
And her story from 2000 if you want to read it, trigger warning here for assault, racism, transphobia:
http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2011/08/justice-wasnt-served-in-this-trans-hate.html