Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
zepherinRussian warship, go fuck yourselfRegistered Userregular
I'm a big fan of broken window. I think that it could use some tweeks, and I think that policing in general is racist, but certain minority groups tend towards being poor, and the police don't give a fuck about any poor ever. This is a poverty and race problem, but I think people who commit property crimes should be punished for that crap, trespassing should be a crime that is heavily prosecuted, because it is a crime that can go real wrong real fast. #Florida
Community representation is largely bullshit. 12.2% of the police are African american. The percentage of population that are African American are 13.2%. There should be more women, but they are using bullshit numbers to try to force them to hire more black people when they are represented in police.
We do need independent investigations, but who is qualified? The best qualified, are detectives, and everyone else the police immediately get the right to remain silent, and they exercise their right. More people should.
Training and body cameras, yes let's do it. Both of them, why aren't we using body cameras everywhere, and demanding a great deal of training.
End For-Profit Policing. Yes, civil asset forfeiture is the most corrupt shit. If you can't convict a person by a jury of their peers, you shouldn't be able to seize shit.
Police union contracts are negotiated by the police union and the city, there is no practical way to get that done. If they strike, do you blanket fire everyone? you don't have the juice for that.
I'm not sure how I feel about the use of force and SWAT. I will keep an open mind.
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TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
If there's not a legal distinction between wandering onto someone else's property because you didn't know any better and weren't planning to cause harm and doing so willfully with ill intent, there absolutely should be.
If you want people to stay off your land, post signs. And, please, not the ones with a picture of a smoking handgun that say "we don't dial 911."
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
I think all the items are pretty solid. Sure there's nits to pick here and there, but overall I say push the whole damn thing as a package.
One key thing is that a lot of the items are state and local level changes, hopefully BLM is working on those levels, since a lot of what makes the news from them is the national level actions. President Whoever isn't going to do bupkis on police labor contracts.
Do this or we cut funding is a pretty big stick used against schools, why not police departments?
Maybe increase federal subsides in exchange for not stealing from people?
That'd be nice, but actually cutting funding for police is basically a non-starter politically speaking. Plus, I'm not sure how much straight cash for general usage (as opposed to grants they apply for to use for specific items) the feds give to local and state police.
End Broken Windows Policing - Not sure what the federal government can do here. The practical side of Broken Windows is basically the prioritization of enforcing certain laws. If community X decides that loitering is the worst thing ever, I'm not sure how one could stop that from happening.
Community Oversight - Federal funding could be contingent of having some sort of community review board, but the sticking point there is actually having a review board that actually does something. There's plenty of examples of boards that are rubber stamps for whatever the police do.
Limit Use Of Force - Maybe use the BLM use of force guidelines as a trigger for DoJ investigations, but that's still a pretty local issue.
Independent Investigations & Prosecutions - Same issue as community review boards.
Community Representation - Ditto.
Body Cams/Film The Police - Fed funds to buy the things and have the federal government back lawsuits against the 'no filming police' laws that are cropping up.
Training - Federal funds that can only be used for certain approved training courses, still is a horse water drink problem though.
End For-Profit Policing - Not sure here, broke-ass towns with zero tax base are still going to be looking for cash money. I'd love to RICO say the Ferguson government, but what they're doing is legal, what with them passing the laws that allow them to do it.
Demilitarization - Relatively easy, considering that the source of the heavy weapons is the federal government. Dialing back the drug war (and using more realistic expectations for anti-terrorism actions) would help too.
Fair Police Union Contracts - Getting the federal government involved in local labor negotiations is not something that sounds like a good thing.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
This is not true at all. Many Nordic nations have freedom to roam provisions which explicitly allow people to enter on some privately owned land for various purposes, and within the United States, limitations on private ownership go back centuries. For example, Great Ponds access jurisprudence goes back to 1890 in New Hampshire, and in Maine, it is a criminal offense, punishable by jail, to prevent people from entering your unimproved private land to gain access to a great pond (larger ponds and lakes, basically). That applies to a couple thousand different bodies of water, so it is quite broad in its conception.
Narrowly tailored trespassing laws are great, but they should be narrowly tailored and enforced in a reasonable fashion.
Also, for the OP topic a bit, explicit protection of whistleblowing cops should be a plank. Good cops will often be outright arrested by bad cops if they expose misdeeds.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
This is not true at all. Many Nordic nations have freedom to roam provisions which explicitly allow people to enter on some privately owned land for various purposes, and within the United States, limitations on private ownership go back centuries. For example, Great Ponds access jurisprudence goes back to 1890 in New Hampshire, and in Maine, it is a criminal offense, punishable by jail, to prevent people from entering your unimproved private land to gain access to a great pond (larger ponds and lakes, basically). That applies to a couple thousand different bodies of water, so it is quite broad in its conception.
Narrowly tailored trespassing laws are great, but they should be narrowly tailored and enforced in a reasonable fashion.
Also, for the OP topic a bit, explicit protection of whistleblowing cops should be a plank. Good cops will often be outright arrested by bad cops if they expose misdeeds.
ok
well, I'll go ahead and state the obvious for posterity. This is not a nordic country and no one here is talking about removing access to a large body of water.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
This is not true at all. Many Nordic nations have freedom to roam provisions which explicitly allow people to enter on some privately owned land for various purposes, and within the United States, limitations on private ownership go back centuries. For example, Great Ponds access jurisprudence goes back to 1890 in New Hampshire, and in Maine, it is a criminal offense, punishable by jail, to prevent people from entering your unimproved private land to gain access to a great pond (larger ponds and lakes, basically). That applies to a couple thousand different bodies of water, so it is quite broad in its conception.
Narrowly tailored trespassing laws are great, but they should be narrowly tailored and enforced in a reasonable fashion.
Also, for the OP topic a bit, explicit protection of whistleblowing cops should be a plank. Good cops will often be outright arrested by bad cops if they expose misdeeds.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
Reasons to go onto others property without an explicit invitation:
Kids playing in the neighborhood running onto front lawns.
Chasing pets.
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
Recovering lost toys/sporting equipment
Tracking shot wildlife
Talking to the neighbors (gotta access the property to knock on the door).
Tresspassing should be illegal, but defining trespassing as broadly as "ever being on property you do not own" is silly. Your situation, e.g fenced property with signage, is already trespassing. The laws don't need to be changed so police can arrest people for taking a walk.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
This is not true at all. Many Nordic nations have freedom to roam provisions which explicitly allow people to enter on some privately owned land for various purposes, and within the United States, limitations on private ownership go back centuries. For example, Great Ponds access jurisprudence goes back to 1890 in New Hampshire, and in Maine, it is a criminal offense, punishable by jail, to prevent people from entering your unimproved private land to gain access to a great pond (larger ponds and lakes, basically). That applies to a couple thousand different bodies of water, so it is quite broad in its conception.
Narrowly tailored trespassing laws are great, but they should be narrowly tailored and enforced in a reasonable fashion.
Also, for the OP topic a bit, explicit protection of whistleblowing cops should be a plank. Good cops will often be outright arrested by bad cops if they expose misdeeds.
ok
well, I'll go ahead and state the obvious for posterity. This is not a nordic country and no one here is talking about removing access to a large body of water.
You very much are talking about the bolded. When all the land around the body of water is privately owned the only way to the body of water is to trespass over the owned property to get to the body of water. What you are advocating, making the very act of standing on someone's property without prior authorization a zero tolerance/no questions asked "Get the fuck on the ground" arrest, is removing there access.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
What the fuck are you on about? What you are describing is theft and breaking and entering. By trespass I'm talking about walking through someone's forested property, not fucking walking into someone's backyard with the purpose of stealing their kids toys.
I think the area you live in is clouding your judgement and perceptions a lot more than you think they are
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
Reasons to go onto others property without an explicit invitation:
Kids playing in the neighborhood running onto front lawns.
Chasing pets.
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
Recovering lost toys/sporting equipment
Tracking shot wildlife
Talking to the neighbors (gotta access the property to knock on the door).
Trespassing should be illegal, but defining trespassing as broadly as "ever being on property you do not own" is silly. Your situation, e.g fenced property with signage, is already trespassing. The laws don't need to be changed so police can arrest people for taking a walk.
I wouldn't consider most of these as trespassing as there is an actual (if not always urgent) need.
I was under the impression that we were talking about trespassing as in people entering and remaining on property for no real reason.
that said, I think these four:
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
are crap reasons.
having lived in the suburbs for most of my life, when you go for a walk, you use the street and sidestep onto the easement when a car comes.
I'm actually not for everyone having access to unimproved ponds. Is everyone paying that person's property taxes? No? Then they should be told to piss off.
Access to unimproved woods? For what reason?
There are thousands of acres of public land set aside for people to wander around on if they want to. Fishing and play areas too.
I live in a complete shit area and I can drive to 2 public fishing areas (no license required) and well over a dozen parks, WMAs, docks, and etc. in under a half hour. No trespassing required!
I know I probably sound like a curmudgenly jerk, I just think that you should respect other people's property. I know not everyone has the means to buy a house on 50 acres and a pond (I don't either), but just because you can't, doesn't mean you should get automatic claim to someone who does. There are public areas for all of that!
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Trespassing calls are often made by people who don't own the property against black people. "There's a man, I think he's black, and he's walking into the house across the street!" Usually turns out that the black man is the person who actually lives there or something dumb like that.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Trespassing calls are often made by people who don't own the property against black people. "There's a man, I think he's black, and he's walking into the house across the street!" Usually turns out that the black man is the person who actually lives there or something dumb like that.
Thanks for bringing this back on-topic. I'm not sure what the solution here is, other than addressing broad societal racism and making it so that initiating contact with police isn't such an inherently dangerous thing.
I'm not risking me or my dogs getting run over by the yahoos who speed up and down my street. When I'm out for a walk and a car is coming I move off the street. I'll aim for a driveway if I can, but if not then lawn it is.
I'm in favor of all those reforms and I think police reform should be a huge priority, but so long as police are doing their job against the backdrop of a reasonable fear of This Person May Have A Gun, I think that police and people more generally will always be quicker to violence (lethal and otherwise) than police in areas where that is not a reasonable fear
I too, want to grind my gun control axe in a thread where most of the problems aren't related (e.g. quotas), and can reasonable be boiled down to racism or having bad goals in general (anything not community policing oriented, basically)...
it's specifically related to limiting the use of force and to a lesser degree demilitarization, and I think the pile of dead bodies that Ametica's police has relative to Japan, Germany, England, etc is possibly the biggest problem, and I think it's intimately related to the presence of guns in the different countries
guns are everywhere in America and until you get rid of the related reasonable fear of rapid escalation, training only goes so far relative to those relatively gun-free countries
It's really not a gun control issue, though. Police will be perfectly amicable to white guys that they *know* are armed, but will blast a black guy for the wrong movement. Hell, look at how courteous they were when they apprehended Dylan Roof, known armed killer.
I'm in favor of all those reforms and I think police reform should be a huge priority, but so long as police are doing their job against the backdrop of a reasonable fear of This Person May Have A Gun, I think that police and people more generally will always be quicker to violence (lethal and otherwise) than police in areas where that is not a reasonable fear
I too, want to grind my gun control axe in a thread where most of the problems aren't related (e.g. quotas), and can reasonable be boiled down to racism or having bad goals in general (anything not community policing oriented, basically)...
it's specifically related to limiting the use of force and to a lesser degree demilitarization, and I think the pile of dead bodies that Ametica's police has relative to Japan, Germany, England, etc is possibly the biggest problem, and I think it's intimately related to the presence of guns in the different countries
guns are everywhere in America and until you get rid of the related reasonable fear of rapid escalation, training only goes so far relative to those relatively gun-free countries
It's really not a gun control issue, though. Police will be perfectly amicable to white guys that they *know* are armed, but will blast a black guy for the wrong movement. Hell, look at how courteous they were when they apprehended Dylan Roof, known armed killer.
Or those jerkhole ranchers that were literally posting pictures of themselves with guns pointed at officers.
I think Community Representation should go beyond racial/gender diversity. Cops should live where they work. One of the big problems with the NYPD is that a lot of those cops actually live on Long Island and don't give a shit about NYC at all, because it's not their home. They have no ties to the community whatsoever. Cops should have to live in the neighborhood they police.
Walking in the street is a good way to get hassled by law enforcement.
Walking on the very edge of someones property is a good way to get hassled by law enforcement.
The system works!
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
I think Community Representation should go beyond racial/gender diversity. Cops should live where they work. One of the big problems with the NYPD is that a lot of those cops actually live on Long Island and don't give a shit about NYC at all, because it's not their home. They have no ties to the community whatsoever. Cops should have to live in the neighborhood they police.
That's an issue with smaller communities like Ferguson, though.
I agree it's the best way to establish a connection with the community, although that lends itself to different forms of corruption and could turn the needle back from too much policing to too little, if they know everyone in town and will mostly target out-of-towners and ignore most transgressions on the inside.
Maybe I should note now that fake racist calls on trespassing are not what I'm talking about when I say trespassing should be called in.
Except of course they are not fake calls, the callers are just racist enough to think that "this is a white neighborhood. Therefore no black people could ever live here/visit. Therefore the black person I see walking down the street is not a resident/guest of the area. Therefore calling the cops is a good idea."
All the calls are made in good faith, its just that the callers are racists and their idea of good faith is racist.
Then cops come and arrest black people for doing exactly what white people do without problem all the time.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
+2
Options
TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
I'm not risking me or my dogs getting run over by the yahoos who speed up and down my street. When I'm out for a walk and a car is coming I move off the street. I'll aim for a driveway if I can, but if not then lawn it is.
I'm reminded of a video from last year (?) in which cops violently arrested 2 black guys for 'walking in the street' in a neighborhood with no sidewalks.
I'm not risking me or my dogs getting run over by the yahoos who speed up and down my street. When I'm out for a walk and a car is coming I move off the street. I'll aim for a driveway if I can, but if not then lawn it is.
I'm reminded of a video from last year (?) in which cops violently arrested 2 black guys for 'walking in the street' in a neighborhood with no sidewalks.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
Reasons to go onto others property without an explicit invitation:
Kids playing in the neighborhood running onto front lawns.
Chasing pets.
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
Recovering lost toys/sporting equipment
Tracking shot wildlife
Talking to the neighbors (gotta access the property to knock on the door).
Trespassing should be illegal, but defining trespassing as broadly as "ever being on property you do not own" is silly. Your situation, e.g fenced property with signage, is already trespassing. The laws don't need to be changed so police can arrest people for taking a walk.
I wouldn't consider most of these as trespassing as there is an actual (if not always urgent) need.
I was under the impression that we were talking about trespassing as in people entering and remaining on property for no real reason.
that said, I think these four:
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
are crap reasons.
having lived in the suburbs for most of my life, when you go for a walk, you use the street and sidestep onto the easement when a car comes.
I'm actually not for everyone having access to unimproved ponds. Is everyone paying that person's property taxes? No? Then they should be told to piss off.
Access to unimproved woods? For what reason?
There are thousands of acres of public land set aside for people to wander around on if they want to. Fishing and play areas too.
I live in a complete shit area and I can drive to 2 public fishing areas (no license required) and well over a dozen parks, WMAs, docks, and etc. in under a half hour. No trespassing required!
I know I probably sound like a curmudgenly jerk, I just think that you should respect other people's property. I know not everyone has the means to buy a house on 50 acres and a pond (I don't either), but just because you can't, doesn't mean you should get automatic claim to someone who does. There are public areas for all of that!
Being from a Nordic country, I obviously have my own baggage on this topic. Your post just kind of reads to me like some authoritarian nightmare scenario.
The way everyman's rights (roaming rights) work here, is that without requiring permission, you're allowed to roam the land freely, and camp temporarily (for a duration of no longer than a night or two) out of sight of habitation. You are not allowed to damage the land, be it cutting down trees, damaging slow-growing lichen, making fires etc. without the permission of the landowner. You are also required to respect the peace of the home, i.e. not camp within view of existing habitation, or to trespass in the owner's living space. Living space being here obviously looked after grounds like yards, gardens etc.
You are allowed to fish freely with a traditional fishing rod, and gather the nature's bounty in the form of mushrooms and berries.
These are incredibly tiny concessions for the landowner to give to the general public for the right to own the land and its resources. You own the land only as long as the people allow you to. As much as U.S. tries to profess the virtues of liberty and freedom, the land ownership and trespassing limitations read to someone from a place where free movement is minimally restricted as something akin to an open air prison. It's very much contradictory to freedom, in the sense that I understand the concept.
I feel like we're back in the 70's having an old debate.
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign, blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind...
Ultimately, I think strictly enforced private land rights most benefit the wealthy and most harm the under privileged. I would use that as the platform for any further examinations of share should and shouldn't be property rights.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
I work in a state owned hotel/office building combo, it is by definition public property, and I call police about once a week to issue a trespass warning or arrest if the warning was previously given. It is not always a given or easy to see you aren't supposed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be, but going by what you profess they should be locked immediately because they made a mistake and took a right instead of left.
See, I like to give people the benefit of doubt instead of immediately giving them a criminal record as mistakes do happen.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Walking through the woods, you cross into someone's unfenced property line.
Or you are in a town without sidewalk / curb regulations and you do not know the owner's property extends to the street.
Like, there are some grey areas.
Going through the fridge in a stranger's kitchen is pretty black and white, but there are lots of situations where the best course of action is to inform the person they are trespassing and give them the option to leave, no harm no foul.
SW-4158-3990-6116
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
Okay so if there are no signs or anything how do you know if you're on public or private property?
There's a huge difference between "knowing if a piece of property is yours" and "knowing if a piece of property belongs to someone else."
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
I work in a state owned hotel/office building combo, it is by definition public property, and I call police about once a week to issue a trespass warning or arrest if the warning was previously given. It is not always a given or easy to see you aren't supposed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be, but going by what you profess they should be locked immediately because they made a mistake and took a right instead of left.
See, I like to give people the benefit of doubt instead of immediately giving them a criminal record as mistakes do happen.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
Okay so if there are no signs or anything how do you know if you're on public or private property?
There's a huge difference between "knowing if a piece of property is yours" and "knowing if a piece of property belongs to someone else."
I guess I've never encountered a situation where I was so lost and/or confused I didn't know what was what
I'm only 35 though, so I guess I've got time left!
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
Okay so if there are no signs or anything how do you know if you're on public or private property?
There's a huge difference between "knowing if a piece of property is yours" and "knowing if a piece of property belongs to someone else."
I guess I've never encountered a situation where I was so lost and/or confused I didn't know what was what
I'm only 35 though, so I guess I've got time left!
It doesn't take getting really lost and confused. It takes someone just not marking an area as private or not caring if people are on it. And then for cops to decide to only every really care when black people are on it.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
I work in a state owned hotel/office building combo, it is by definition public property, and I call police about once a week to issue a trespass warning or arrest if the warning was previously given. It is not always a given or easy to see you aren't supposed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be, but going by what you profess they should be locked immediately because they made a mistake and took a right instead of left.
See, I like to give people the benefit of doubt instead of immediately giving them a criminal record as mistakes do happen.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
Okay so if there are no signs or anything how do you know if you're on public or private property?
There's a huge difference between "knowing if a piece of property is yours" and "knowing if a piece of property belongs to someone else."
I guess I've never encountered a situation where I was so lost and/or confused I didn't know what was what
I'm only 35 though, so I guess I've got time left!
Well come on down and we'll show you around a poverty-stricken suburb.
Hell there are a lot of public parks where you're trespassing depending on time of day. All it takes is cutting across one after a late night at work and boom you're a criminal for... reasons.
Am I the only person here who thinks that trespassing should be an arrestable offense?
If it's not your property gtfo
It is an arrestable offense, but the person has to first be told they're trespassing or be in a place that a reasonable person would know they're not supposed to be
A reasonable person knows if a piece of property is theirs or not.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
I work in a state owned hotel/office building combo, it is by definition public property, and I call police about once a week to issue a trespass warning or arrest if the warning was previously given. It is not always a given or easy to see you aren't supposed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be, but going by what you profess they should be locked immediately because they made a mistake and took a right instead of left.
See, I like to give people the benefit of doubt instead of immediately giving them a criminal record as mistakes do happen.
Hold on now, that's not been what I'm saying
This started with you saying trespassing should be an arrestable offense. I corrected you saying it is after a warning or if a reasonable person knows they are where they shouldn't be (ie due to signage or fencing). You called that bullshit which says to me you think warnings/signs/fencing is unnecessary and your examples lead me to believe you think trespassing should be treated the same as someone actively stealing/B&Eing hence my "get the fuck on the floor" arrest post, edit: and arrest means a criminal record. We provided many reasons why your bullshit is actually bullshit, and now we are here.
Posts
There is not a presumption that private property is not open to the public.
We're not, like, Norway, where it's entirely legal to camp on others' land while traveling as long as you don't approach the house. But if you don't want anyone cutting through your yard, the onus is on you to put up fencing and/or signage.
That's horseshit in my opinion and it should be horseshit in everyone's opinion.
Is something yours?
If yes, proceed.
If no, it's not yours and you don't get to do what you want with it!
This is kindergarten stuff.
Community representation is largely bullshit. 12.2% of the police are African american. The percentage of population that are African American are 13.2%. There should be more women, but they are using bullshit numbers to try to force them to hire more black people when they are represented in police.
We do need independent investigations, but who is qualified? The best qualified, are detectives, and everyone else the police immediately get the right to remain silent, and they exercise their right. More people should.
Training and body cameras, yes let's do it. Both of them, why aren't we using body cameras everywhere, and demanding a great deal of training.
End For-Profit Policing. Yes, civil asset forfeiture is the most corrupt shit. If you can't convict a person by a jury of their peers, you shouldn't be able to seize shit.
Police union contracts are negotiated by the police union and the city, there is no practical way to get that done. If they strike, do you blanket fire everyone? you don't have the juice for that.
I'm not sure how I feel about the use of force and SWAT. I will keep an open mind.
I'm suddenly really curious what sort of neighborhood you live in and what your compound looks like.
If you want people to stay off your land, post signs. And, please, not the ones with a picture of a smoking handgun that say "we don't dial 911."
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
My home and yard remain completely unchanged from when I moved in.
the co-op requires a standard chainlink fence in good repair. People tresspass ALL THE TIME. Occasionally they pick my flowers, steal my kids outdoor toys, or break my garden ornaments.
Even if they didn't, I still wouldn't want them on my property because it's my property. I don't waltz on other peoples property to do anything because (again), it isn't mine!
I don't open up peoples cars and sit in them. Or wander in their houses look around and leave, etc.!
I don't expect other people to either.
Why should trespassing get a (heh) pass? What should be legal about it?
Are you saying that you don't immediately recognize what property is yours and what property isn't?
edit: also, my neighborhood is comprised mainly of dealers, takers, alcoholics, crack heads, and the guy across the street that got arrested for making videos with a dog.
edit2: even if my neighborhood wasn't so crappy, I'd still be against trespassing, because there is still no reason to.
That'd be nice, but actually cutting funding for police is basically a non-starter politically speaking. Plus, I'm not sure how much straight cash for general usage (as opposed to grants they apply for to use for specific items) the feds give to local and state police.
End Broken Windows Policing - Not sure what the federal government can do here. The practical side of Broken Windows is basically the prioritization of enforcing certain laws. If community X decides that loitering is the worst thing ever, I'm not sure how one could stop that from happening.
Community Oversight - Federal funding could be contingent of having some sort of community review board, but the sticking point there is actually having a review board that actually does something. There's plenty of examples of boards that are rubber stamps for whatever the police do.
Limit Use Of Force - Maybe use the BLM use of force guidelines as a trigger for DoJ investigations, but that's still a pretty local issue.
Independent Investigations & Prosecutions - Same issue as community review boards.
Community Representation - Ditto.
Body Cams/Film The Police - Fed funds to buy the things and have the federal government back lawsuits against the 'no filming police' laws that are cropping up.
Training - Federal funds that can only be used for certain approved training courses, still is a horse water drink problem though.
End For-Profit Policing - Not sure here, broke-ass towns with zero tax base are still going to be looking for cash money. I'd love to RICO say the Ferguson government, but what they're doing is legal, what with them passing the laws that allow them to do it.
Demilitarization - Relatively easy, considering that the source of the heavy weapons is the federal government. Dialing back the drug war (and using more realistic expectations for anti-terrorism actions) would help too.
Fair Police Union Contracts - Getting the federal government involved in local labor negotiations is not something that sounds like a good thing.
This is not true at all. Many Nordic nations have freedom to roam provisions which explicitly allow people to enter on some privately owned land for various purposes, and within the United States, limitations on private ownership go back centuries. For example, Great Ponds access jurisprudence goes back to 1890 in New Hampshire, and in Maine, it is a criminal offense, punishable by jail, to prevent people from entering your unimproved private land to gain access to a great pond (larger ponds and lakes, basically). That applies to a couple thousand different bodies of water, so it is quite broad in its conception.
Narrowly tailored trespassing laws are great, but they should be narrowly tailored and enforced in a reasonable fashion.
Also, for the OP topic a bit, explicit protection of whistleblowing cops should be a plank. Good cops will often be outright arrested by bad cops if they expose misdeeds.
ok
well, I'll go ahead and state the obvious for posterity. This is not a nordic country and no one here is talking about removing access to a large body of water.
Very true.
Reasons to go onto others property without an explicit invitation:
Kids playing in the neighborhood running onto front lawns.
Chasing pets.
Cutting across large backyards in unimproved areas.
Going for a walk in suburbs without sidewalks.
Access to unimproved ponds or such for fishing and play (again, large rural yard issue).
Access to unimproved woods without an obvious owner.
Recovering lost toys/sporting equipment
Tracking shot wildlife
Talking to the neighbors (gotta access the property to knock on the door).
Tresspassing should be illegal, but defining trespassing as broadly as "ever being on property you do not own" is silly. Your situation, e.g fenced property with signage, is already trespassing. The laws don't need to be changed so police can arrest people for taking a walk.
You very much are talking about the bolded. When all the land around the body of water is privately owned the only way to the body of water is to trespass over the owned property to get to the body of water. What you are advocating, making the very act of standing on someone's property without prior authorization a zero tolerance/no questions asked "Get the fuck on the ground" arrest, is removing there access.
What the fuck are you on about? What you are describing is theft and breaking and entering. By trespass I'm talking about walking through someone's forested property, not fucking walking into someone's backyard with the purpose of stealing their kids toys.
I think the area you live in is clouding your judgement and perceptions a lot more than you think they are
I wouldn't consider most of these as trespassing as there is an actual (if not always urgent) need.
I was under the impression that we were talking about trespassing as in people entering and remaining on property for no real reason.
that said, I think these four:
are crap reasons.
having lived in the suburbs for most of my life, when you go for a walk, you use the street and sidestep onto the easement when a car comes.
I'm actually not for everyone having access to unimproved ponds. Is everyone paying that person's property taxes? No? Then they should be told to piss off.
Access to unimproved woods? For what reason?
There are thousands of acres of public land set aside for people to wander around on if they want to. Fishing and play areas too.
I live in a complete shit area and I can drive to 2 public fishing areas (no license required) and well over a dozen parks, WMAs, docks, and etc. in under a half hour. No trespassing required!
I know I probably sound like a curmudgenly jerk, I just think that you should respect other people's property. I know not everyone has the means to buy a house on 50 acres and a pond (I don't either), but just because you can't, doesn't mean you should get automatic claim to someone who does. There are public areas for all of that!
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Thanks for bringing this back on-topic. I'm not sure what the solution here is, other than addressing broad societal racism and making it so that initiating contact with police isn't such an inherently dangerous thing.
It's really not a gun control issue, though. Police will be perfectly amicable to white guys that they *know* are armed, but will blast a black guy for the wrong movement. Hell, look at how courteous they were when they apprehended Dylan Roof, known armed killer.
Or those jerkhole ranchers that were literally posting pictures of themselves with guns pointed at officers.
Walking on the very edge of someones property is a good way to get hassled by law enforcement.
The system works!
That's an issue with smaller communities like Ferguson, though.
I agree it's the best way to establish a connection with the community, although that lends itself to different forms of corruption and could turn the needle back from too much policing to too little, if they know everyone in town and will mostly target out-of-towners and ignore most transgressions on the inside.
Except of course they are not fake calls, the callers are just racist enough to think that "this is a white neighborhood. Therefore no black people could ever live here/visit. Therefore the black person I see walking down the street is not a resident/guest of the area. Therefore calling the cops is a good idea."
All the calls are made in good faith, its just that the callers are racists and their idea of good faith is racist.
Then cops come and arrest black people for doing exactly what white people do without problem all the time.
Except there's a thing known as public property? Wtf?
I'm reminded of a video from last year (?) in which cops violently arrested 2 black guys for 'walking in the street' in a neighborhood with no sidewalks.
That is literally how Michael Brown died.
Being from a Nordic country, I obviously have my own baggage on this topic. Your post just kind of reads to me like some authoritarian nightmare scenario.
The way everyman's rights (roaming rights) work here, is that without requiring permission, you're allowed to roam the land freely, and camp temporarily (for a duration of no longer than a night or two) out of sight of habitation. You are not allowed to damage the land, be it cutting down trees, damaging slow-growing lichen, making fires etc. without the permission of the landowner. You are also required to respect the peace of the home, i.e. not camp within view of existing habitation, or to trespass in the owner's living space. Living space being here obviously looked after grounds like yards, gardens etc.
You are allowed to fish freely with a traditional fishing rod, and gather the nature's bounty in the form of mushrooms and berries.
These are incredibly tiny concessions for the landowner to give to the general public for the right to own the land and its resources. You own the land only as long as the people allow you to. As much as U.S. tries to profess the virtues of liberty and freedom, the land ownership and trespassing limitations read to someone from a place where free movement is minimally restricted as something akin to an open air prison. It's very much contradictory to freedom, in the sense that I understand the concept.
Sign, sign, everywhere a sign, blocking out the scenery, breaking my mind...
Ultimately, I think strictly enforced private land rights most benefit the wealthy and most harm the under privileged. I would use that as the platform for any further examinations of share should and shouldn't be property rights.
Yeah ....
You can't really trespass on public property unless you're in an area designated for staff or after hours in which case I'd advise you to not do those things
I work in a state owned hotel/office building combo, it is by definition public property, and I call police about once a week to issue a trespass warning or arrest if the warning was previously given. It is not always a given or easy to see you aren't supposed to be somewhere you're not supposed to be, but going by what you profess they should be locked immediately because they made a mistake and took a right instead of left.
See, I like to give people the benefit of doubt instead of immediately giving them a criminal record as mistakes do happen.
Walking through the woods, you cross into someone's unfenced property line.
Or you are in a town without sidewalk / curb regulations and you do not know the owner's property extends to the street.
Like, there are some grey areas.
Going through the fridge in a stranger's kitchen is pretty black and white, but there are lots of situations where the best course of action is to inform the person they are trespassing and give them the option to leave, no harm no foul.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Okay so if there are no signs or anything how do you know if you're on public or private property?
There's a huge difference between "knowing if a piece of property is yours" and "knowing if a piece of property belongs to someone else."
Hold on now, that's not been what I'm saying
I guess I've never encountered a situation where I was so lost and/or confused I didn't know what was what
I'm only 35 though, so I guess I've got time left!
It doesn't take getting really lost and confused. It takes someone just not marking an area as private or not caring if people are on it. And then for cops to decide to only every really care when black people are on it.
Well come on down and we'll show you around a poverty-stricken suburb.
This started with you saying trespassing should be an arrestable offense. I corrected you saying it is after a warning or if a reasonable person knows they are where they shouldn't be (ie due to signage or fencing). You called that bullshit which says to me you think warnings/signs/fencing is unnecessary and your examples lead me to believe you think trespassing should be treated the same as someone actively stealing/B&Eing hence my "get the fuck on the floor" arrest post, edit: and arrest means a criminal record. We provided many reasons why your bullshit is actually bullshit, and now we are here.
So, what are you saying?