I don't think hiring all female directors is a bad thing, but I wish they'd have kept their mouth shut until they had an actual list of hires to announce. Saying "it is our intent to hire all ladies" comes off as pandering, even if the end result is a net positive.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
Deliberately excluding people based on their gender is not progressive.
It's an imperfect solution to a problem with no perfect solution. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Basically, right now men dominate the industry because since they started making movies women have been told while growing up that it's for men. Comic books are for boys, not girls. Action movies are for men. Super Heroes are for males.
So the pool of women who told society to fuck off and went their own way is going to be a lot smaller than the pool of men who have been told their whole lives that doing this work is their birthright.
To fix that, an entire generation of men and women have to grow up without those artificial limits being enforced on them and that can't be done just by going full egalitarian while most people are still convinced those limits exist. You'll end up reinforcing them just because the pool of qualified people is going to be stacked in a single direction.
So you do what Marvel is doing. You seek out women directors specifically because they're women. And as long as they're qualified, that's good, because that is what is necessary to show young girls, and young boys as well, that there is no gender limit to being able to make compelling comic books and comic book adaptations. They'll grow up without thinking those limits exist.
I will admit that it would have been nice for them to wait on the announcement until they actually had the list all lined up. "We've hired women to direct JJ Season 2, and here they are!" as opposed to what they've said.
I can see why that part annoys some people.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
Other shows are out there making statements that they're only hiring male directors?
They don't have to, because it's the baseline position due to decades of sexism being built into the system and industry. It's not a statement at all except "here we are perpetuating (intentionally or not) implicit sexism in the industry".
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
Other shows are out there making statements that they're only hiring male directors?
You must have missed it. DC comics let a successful female editor go and stopped hiring women for one of their departments so they could hang onto a male editor who is a serial sex pest. There was a massive outcry at the time, which died down after a couple of weeks while DC stuck to their guns. The situation there remains unchanged.
Also, there are no women on Supergirl's creative team.
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
TAO is a super problem, because, if they go by the source material, he's Tibetan. If you cast some other asian in the role, that is a different kind of erasure; if you cast him as Tibetan, you are leaving $100 million on the table from the Chinese market. That's not really a hill that I expect movie producers to die on.
I'm not very happy with the solution I've seen so far, but Marvel has built up enough good will with me from JJ, LC, and BP's intro in Civil War that I'm willing to let them make their case. For all I know TAO has no set form and only took on the Tilda Swinton appearance because he/she read on the wifi that white men pay more attention to british female voices.
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
TAO is a super problem, because, if they go by the source material, he's Tibetan. If you cast some other asian in the role, that is a different kind of erasure; if you cast him as Tibetan, you are leaving $100 million on the table from the Chinese market. That's not really a hill that I expect movie producers to die on.
I'm not very happy with the solution I've seen so far, but Marvel has built up enough good will with me from JJ, LC, and BP's intro in Civil War that I'm willing to let them make their case. For all I know TAO has no set form and only took on the Tilda Swinton appearance because he/she read on the wifi that white men pay more attention to british female voices.
I suspect if you even imply that he's Tibetan you offend the Chinese market.
Which is super fucking lame, but we only continue to get these movies so long as they make all the money everywhere.
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
I think further to my point above: When a show like Jessica Jones has all female directors, it's probably something Marvel should be crowing about. When it ends up being awesome (Assumed, considering how good Season 1 was), it'll reinforce the idea that gender has fuckall to do with ability. If they don't say anything, most people won't note anything about it at all.
And while I don't have stats to back it up, I'm willing to bet that if you poll a bunch of people who watch TV shows about whether or not the episodes are directed by men or women, the vast majority wouldn't know, but will likely assume it's men.
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
TAO is a super problem, because, if they go by the source material, he's Tibetan. If you cast some other asian in the role, that is a different kind of erasure; if you cast him as Tibetan, you are leaving $100 million on the table from the Chinese market. That's not really a hill that I expect movie producers to die on.
I'm not very happy with the solution I've seen so far, but Marvel has built up enough good will with me from JJ, LC, and BP's intro in Civil War that I'm willing to let them make their case. For all I know TAO has no set form and only took on the Tilda Swinton appearance because he/she read on the wifi that white men pay more attention to british female voices.
I'm a big fan of reaction videos. I enjoy watching people react to exciting stuff on TV and film. Some of the reactions to trailers for The Force Awakens were outstanding.
One of the reaction videos I watched not too long ago was a group of Asian guys reacting to the trailer for Rogue One. Watching them blurt out "OMIGAWD! ASIANS!" while watching that trailer, watching how thrilled they were to see Asian characters featured prominently, was one hell of a wake up call.
They're not going to quibble about where the actor or actress is from. They're not going to insist that if you're not willing to cast a Tibeten then you're indulging in another form of erasure. They just. Want. To. See. Themselves. On. Screen.
Nobody even thinks of casting an Asian as Captain America, or Iron Man, or DareDevil, or Superman, or Batman. There are a very, very small amount of roles where they can show up in these movies. Don't squeeze them out of those roles too. It's shitty. That's all we're saying.
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
TAO is a super problem, because, if they go by the source material, he's Tibetan. If you cast some other asian in the role, that is a different kind of erasure; if you cast him as Tibetan, you are leaving $100 million on the table from the Chinese market. That's not really a hill that I expect movie producers to die on.
I'm not very happy with the solution I've seen so far, but Marvel has built up enough good will with me from JJ, LC, and BP's intro in Civil War that I'm willing to let them make their case. For all I know TAO has no set form and only took on the Tilda Swinton appearance because he/she read on the wifi that white men pay more attention to british female voices.
I'm a big fan of reaction videos. I enjoy watching people react to exciting stuff on TV and film. Some of the reactions to trailers for The Force Awakens were outstanding.
One of the reaction videos I watched not too long ago was a group of Asian guys reacting to the trailer for Rogue One. Watching them blurt out "OMIGAWD! ASIANS!" while watching that trailer, watching how thrilled they were to see Asian characters featured prominently, was one hell of a wake up call.
They're not going to quibble about where the actor or actress is from. They're not going to insist that if you're not willing to cast a Tibeten then you're indulging in another form of erasure. They just. Want. To. See. Themselves. On. Screen.
Nobody even thinks of casting an Asian as Captain America, or Iron Man, or DareDevil, or Superman, or Batman. There are a very, very small amount of roles where they can show up in these movies. Don't squeeze them out of those roles too. It's shitty. That's all we're saying.
Asians have every right to be pissed about lack of representation, but there is context with Doctor Strange that makes it stickier: TAO being Tibetan means that he is of a persecuted minority that China is systematically erasing. Making the TAO say, Chinese instead of Tibetan, is participating in one of the worst human rights abuses in the modern world. Casting a white person still sucks, but at least it isn't making a very unfortunate political statement.
I'm currently going with the fact that Benedict "I'm fuckin' Kublai Khan, sucka" Wong seems to be satisfied with the production to base my acceptance on.
They're not going to quibble about where the actor or actress is from. They're not going to insist that if you're not willing to cast a Tibetan then you're indulging in another form of erasure. They just. Want. To. See. Themselves. On. Screen.
Yeah. Yeah, they do.
in this open letter, there's an explicit call for the new Mulan to be Asian-American, instead of "appeal[ing] to a Chinese market". Claiming that Mulan's story (explicitly Chinese) is "essentially an Asian American tale" [sic]
People quibble. It's kinda what we do.
(to be clear: I'm not in a position to endorse or condemn the letter; I don't feel that the letter writer is some authority that can represent multiple cultures; Disney has already clarified the issue.)
Let's say you have two farmers who both have farms of equal size and equal quality. Logically, you would expect consumers to buy from both farmers equally. But for some reason, Farmer A is in much higher demand, and Farmer B only fetches 70 cents on the dollar. Also, it's a lot harder to find fresh produce from Farmer A, since it gets snatched up very quickly.
Then one day you realize, "Hey, maybe I should give farmer B a shot, since I can get fresher produce at a cheaper price. Not because Farmer B is a better farmer, but simply due to market forces."
Now, like I said earlier, both Farmers produce equal quality. So intuitively, it would make sense for the progressive customer to buy from Farmer A and Farmer B equally. But economically, it doesn't make sense, simply because the market forces were already tilted so far in one direction.
Asians have every right to be pissed about lack of representation, but there is context with Doctor Strange that makes it stickier: TAO being Tibetan means that he is of a persecuted minority that China is systematically erasing. Making the TAO say, Chinese instead of Tibetan, is participating in one of the worst human rights abuses in the modern world. Casting a white person still sucks, but at least it isn't making a very unfortunate political statement.
I'm currently going with the fact that Benedict "I'm fuckin' Kublai Khan, sucka" Wong seems to be satisfied with the production to base my acceptance on.
Not exactly, Marvel think they're totally in the clear politically with casting a white woman in this role. Whitewashing has no excuses. What's worse from the interviews I've seen/read (from the director?) they only wanted Tilda for the role. They didmd'r explore any other options, and they didn't want to rewrite the role either. As if that matters if they cast an Asian woman*, 1) they could keep the role as is with the new actress and 2) rewrite it for the new actress. Both are common in Hollywood.
Unfortunately this erases a huge role for an Asian actor, which they can't afford right now.
* who isn't Chinese: South Korean, Japanese, Fillipino, from Nepal descent etc.
I'm dealing with Facebook folks mad about the Doctor Strange Ancient One whitewashing, essentially calling me a shitty Marvel apologist because I'm planning to see the movie despite one questionable casting choice (and ignoring the amazing Wong and Mordo castings). Opinions are so stratified and binary these days that, if you're not specifically working to make sure a problematic thing fails, you are 100% responsible for every bad thing about it. No nuance, no incremental progress. It drives me nuts, because I can't explain my position without drawing a bunch of "lol cishet white boy mansplaining over here" that I can't argue with, because I actually agree with them on the base facts, if not the specifics.
The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
The thing is they were so close to getting this 100% right, except they keep on thinking whitewashing is there get out of jail free card when it comes to casting racially controversial characters. That they got it right with Wong and Mordo is why this is so weird. If they can do Wong right, why can't they do it for TAO?
The complaints about TAO aren't all binary, certainly not on this forum. Incremental progress is good sure, but there is no reason they had to settle for that wth TAO.
Ike did a lot of bad things, but Marvel's casting controversial decisions aren't all at his feet.
D & D has gone over this before, and the reasons about China were verging on conspiracy theories and what little examples we did have were absolutely nothing like TAO in this movie. We also never got sufficient detailed non -terrible reason from Marvel why an Asian (non-Chinese) or minority actress wasn't cast.
The Chinese market being a big part of movies these days is not a conspiracy. Its a well established fact.
China hating on Tibetans is likewise an established fact.
Disney being a corporation dedicated to making money first and progressive anything second is also a well established fact. If one most people don't really want to face head on. Meaning they will be progressive as long as it doesn't get in the way of making money.
Based on the established facts and the theory "TAO was turned into a white woman to avoid offending the Chinese government and lose out on that sweet Chinese Yuan" is fairly credible.
The alternative theory is "we whitewashed TAO because we are just that racists that we will court controversy with progressives even though there is no money to be made from it".
One theory has history and money behind it and the other has active malice and lack of planning.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
The Chinese market being a big part of movies these days is not a conspiracy. Its a well established fact.
China hating on Tibetans is likewise an established fact.
I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing having a Tibetan character in a Marvel movie is, or why there is no other options than a white woman who was the first actress they thought of.
I've asked for examples in the past and there was nothing remotely like TAO, either.
Then there's the fact that if they really were this pissed off about having a character remotely linked to Tibet Tilda wasn't going to sway them anyway. If they can do Tilda they'll be accepting a minority/Asian actress too.
Disney being a corporation dedicated to making money first and progressive anything second is also a well established fact. If one most people don't really want to face head on. Meaning they will be progressive as long as it doesn't get in the way of making money.
Based on the established facts and the theory "TAO was turned into a white woman to avoid offending the Chinese government and lose out on that sweet Chinese Yuan" is fairly credible.
The alternative theory is "we whitewashed TAO because we are just that racists that we will court controversy with progressives even though there is no money to be made from it".
In theory this makes sense in practice I'm not seeing this with Hollywood movies. Nor does this explain why they'd not be ok with the role going to an Asian actor. This being true also makes it odd why they wouldn't put a Chinese actress in the role if money is their biggest priority. Tilda is a famous actress, but she's no Matt Damon.
It's arguable Fox made a better play for China's dollars then IM3 with Blink
and the last act literally being in China
in DOFP, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about China's influence with that movie.
One theory has history and money behind it and the other has active malice and lack of planning.
I disagree. Marvel didn't only have two options here to please China*, or are there other variables that could take China out of contention like they don't like seeing ghosts. That's why Ghostbusters wasn't shown there.
* I'm not seeing any arguments that China refuses to have movies where characters are of other ethnicities besides white. Just Tibetan.
The Chinese market being a big part of movies these days is not a conspiracy. Its a well established fact.
China hating on Tibetans is likewise an established fact.
I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing having a Tibetan character in a Marvel movie is, or why there is no other options than a white woman who was the first actress they thought of.
I've asked for examples in the past and there was nothing remotely like TAO, either.
Then there's the fact that if they really were this pissed off about having a character remotely linked to Tibet Tilda wasn't going to sway them anyway. If they can do Tilda they'll be accepting a minority/Asian actress too.
Disney being a corporation dedicated to making money first and progressive anything second is also a well established fact. If one most people don't really want to face head on. Meaning they will be progressive as long as it doesn't get in the way of making money.
Based on the established facts and the theory "TAO was turned into a white woman to avoid offending the Chinese government and lose out on that sweet Chinese Yuan" is fairly credible.
The alternative theory is "we whitewashed TAO because we are just that racists that we will court controversy with progressives even though there is no money to be made from it".
In theory this makes sense in practice I'm not seeing this with Hollywood movies. Nor does this explain why they'd not be ok with the role going to an Asian actor. This being true also makes it odd why they wouldn't put a Chinese actress in the role if money is their biggest priority. Tilda is a famous actress, but she's no Matt Damon.
It's arguable Fox made a better play for China's dollars then IM3 with Blink
and the last act literally being in China
in DOFP, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about China's influence with that movie.
One theory has history and money behind it and the other has active malice and lack of planning.
I disagree. Marvel didn't only have two options here to please China*, or are there other variables that could take China out of contention like they don't like seeing ghosts. That's why Ghostbusters wasn't shown there.
* I'm not seeing any arguments that China refuses to have movies where characters are of other ethnicities besides white. Just Tibetan.
Well, "money first, progressive second" doesn't discount that they might not want to actually contribute more to Tibetan erasure by casting a Chinese person. At least this way they can say, "LOL we're just dumb Americans, of course the wise and powerful character is white."
My personal theory is that the Ancient One is a magic person that can be of any race or gender it wants. Or it uses the bodies of volunteers for its immortality (we already know from the commercials that TAO can bap spirits out of bodies).
I just realized that Iron Fist and Doctor Strange basically have the same backstory. Jesus, how many white savior stories does Marvel have?
Several, Most of them where made in the 60s by white guys for a white audience.
Iron Fist is their version of Bruce Lee created specially to cater to an audience of young white boys that wanted to see themselves as Heroic Martial Artists back in the 70s.
As for why they didn't cast an Asian Woman for TAO; Probably didn't want to give even a hint of TAO original origin. I mean if you are erasing the Tibet part, might as well go all the way, people are not going to be less mad at you. They probably could have gone for a black woman, but they had Chiwetel Ejiofor cast so probably didn't want to go too ethnic. White Audiences are still a thing.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
Well, "money first, progressive second" doesn't discount that they might not want to actually contribute more to Tibetan erasure by casting a Chinese person. At least this way they can say, "LOL we're just dumb Americans, of course the wise and powerful character is white."
As I outlined above, that was not their only option for TAO's non-white casting. Marvel hasn't given any reason why they did;t to this to my knowledge, as far as I know they hand't even glanced at as an option - all they wanted was Tilda Swinton as they first and last choice.
Doubling down on white saviors was a bad choice IMO. Not to mention if that's true money first clearly isn't their 100% reason for casting.
My personal theory is that the Ancient One is a magic person that can be of any race or gender it wants. Or it uses the bodies of volunteers for its immortality (we already know from the commercials that TAO can bap spirits out of bodies).
I've seen the movie, there's nothing there to hint at that. And assuming it was, it's bizarre that the only TAO form there would be a white woman given the history of Hollywood whitewashing. With that they could have had multiple people and genders portray the character.
As for why they didn't cast an Asian Woman for TAO; Probably didn't want to give even a hint of TAO original origin. I mean if you are erasing the Tibet part, might as well go all the way, people are not going to be less mad at you. They probably could have gone for a black woman, but they had Chiwetel Ejiofor cast so probably didn't want to go too ethnic. White Audiences are still a thing.
This is something else entirely which would be overkill and the movie was totally ok portraying not!Tibet without any worries about China.
White audiences are fine with minorities portraying mentor characters in their movies for white leads.
I've seen the movie, there's nothing there to hint at that. And assuming it was, it's bizarre that the only TAO form there would be a white woman given the history of Hollywood whitewashing. With that they could have had multiple people and genders portray the character.
That is unfortunate. After Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Black Panther, I was hoping for more from Marvel, to at least acknowledge the issue.
I've seen the movie, there's nothing there to hint at that. And assuming it was, it's bizarre that the only TAO form there would be a white woman given the history of Hollywood whitewashing. With that they could have had multiple people and genders portray the character.
That is unfortunate. After Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Black Panther, I was hoping for more from Marvel, to at least acknowledge the issue.
Just on general progressive principles, Marvel ought to have considered the issue and cast accordingly. Your line of reasoning feels like it ignores lead time and the idea that movie productions are ... well, productions; time-consuming, intensive affairs.
Jessica Jones landed 2 weeks after principal photography started on Doctor Strange. Civil War* was another 5 months away; Luke Cage was nearly a year out.
your suggestion, particularly vis-a-vis Black Panther, is frustrating - feedback to Civil War should be used to influence Doctor Strange ... despite the latter having been done with principal photography for a month (!) by the time audiences became exposed to the former.
which is all to say that Thor 3 (having begun filming in July) will be the first post-Black Panther film; if it has racial issues, citing Luke Cage as well wouldn't hold water.
Most likely Marvel had the chance to snag Tilda Swinton in a role, and schedules met up and things were organized so that she could be in Dr Strange.
Its nothing sinister, just that they had a chance to get an A list actor and put her somewhere and they did.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
When you're considering someone to play an otherworldly being, Tilda Swinton does end up high on the list.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I say sidestep the whole quagmire entirely. What's the furthest point from Tibet? Cuba. Cast some wise looking old cuban lady in there. Boom, nobody can be mad.
*ching ching* Just my two cents
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
This discussion has meandered well off-topic, which, as you can see if you take a quick glance at your tab, is "Marvel's Jessica Jones."
I am going to establish this thread as a tag all spoilers deal, for the time being.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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SteevLWhat can I do for you?Registered Userregular
I'm curious what PA forumers' opinions are of season 2, because I'm seeing more mixed reviews of this compared to season 1. I'm way behind on my Netflix Marvel stuff, though. I've only seen Daredevil (both seasons) and Jessica Jones S1.
Posts
Deliberately providing opportunities to people who have been long denied those opportunities isn't a bad thing.
I'm sure dude directors will just have to settle for the 95% of the rest of directing gigs that they get.
Yes that number was pulled from my ass but let's be real, it it's less than a 9 to 1 disparity I'd be shocked.
It's an imperfect solution to a problem with no perfect solution. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
Basically, right now men dominate the industry because since they started making movies women have been told while growing up that it's for men. Comic books are for boys, not girls. Action movies are for men. Super Heroes are for males.
So the pool of women who told society to fuck off and went their own way is going to be a lot smaller than the pool of men who have been told their whole lives that doing this work is their birthright.
To fix that, an entire generation of men and women have to grow up without those artificial limits being enforced on them and that can't be done just by going full egalitarian while most people are still convinced those limits exist. You'll end up reinforcing them just because the pool of qualified people is going to be stacked in a single direction.
So you do what Marvel is doing. You seek out women directors specifically because they're women. And as long as they're qualified, that's good, because that is what is necessary to show young girls, and young boys as well, that there is no gender limit to being able to make compelling comic books and comic book adaptations. They'll grow up without thinking those limits exist.
I can see why that part annoys some people.
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The point is that Marvel is trying to do the right thing here, and their detractors are also right to be skeptical because Marvel's track record kinda sucks (screw you, Ike Perlmutter).
I don't see you posting about this in every other show out thread where its the opposite.
Fix those and we can talk JJ.
They don't have to, because it's the baseline position due to decades of sexism being built into the system and industry. It's not a statement at all except "here we are perpetuating (intentionally or not) implicit sexism in the industry".
I can understand people being pissed off at The Ancient One's casting because honestly the amount of whitewashing that goes on with Asian roles on film is just tragic. Sure, the casting for Wong and Mordo is awesome, but there was room for a third Asian actor or actress to take on The Ancient One's role.
Then again, I'm one of the few who thought Marvel missed a trick by keeping Danny Rand white in the new TV show. The only reason the character was white in the first place was because they didn't think an Asian character could carry a comic series. An Asian-American could start off as just as much of an outsider as Danny initially is. There's no real reason for Danny to be white anymore, socially or narratively.
Not unless they are also not white.
White male is our society's default person.
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You must have missed it. DC comics let a successful female editor go and stopped hiring women for one of their departments so they could hang onto a male editor who is a serial sex pest. There was a massive outcry at the time, which died down after a couple of weeks while DC stuck to their guns. The situation there remains unchanged.
Also, there are no women on Supergirl's creative team.
TAO is a super problem, because, if they go by the source material, he's Tibetan. If you cast some other asian in the role, that is a different kind of erasure; if you cast him as Tibetan, you are leaving $100 million on the table from the Chinese market. That's not really a hill that I expect movie producers to die on.
I'm not very happy with the solution I've seen so far, but Marvel has built up enough good will with me from JJ, LC, and BP's intro in Civil War that I'm willing to let them make their case. For all I know TAO has no set form and only took on the Tilda Swinton appearance because he/she read on the wifi that white men pay more attention to british female voices.
I suspect if you even imply that he's Tibetan you offend the Chinese market.
Which is super fucking lame, but we only continue to get these movies so long as they make all the money everywhere.
And while I don't have stats to back it up, I'm willing to bet that if you poll a bunch of people who watch TV shows about whether or not the episodes are directed by men or women, the vast majority wouldn't know, but will likely assume it's men.
I'm a big fan of reaction videos. I enjoy watching people react to exciting stuff on TV and film. Some of the reactions to trailers for The Force Awakens were outstanding.
One of the reaction videos I watched not too long ago was a group of Asian guys reacting to the trailer for Rogue One. Watching them blurt out "OMIGAWD! ASIANS!" while watching that trailer, watching how thrilled they were to see Asian characters featured prominently, was one hell of a wake up call.
They're not going to quibble about where the actor or actress is from. They're not going to insist that if you're not willing to cast a Tibeten then you're indulging in another form of erasure. They just. Want. To. See. Themselves. On. Screen.
Nobody even thinks of casting an Asian as Captain America, or Iron Man, or DareDevil, or Superman, or Batman. There are a very, very small amount of roles where they can show up in these movies. Don't squeeze them out of those roles too. It's shitty. That's all we're saying.
Asians have every right to be pissed about lack of representation, but there is context with Doctor Strange that makes it stickier: TAO being Tibetan means that he is of a persecuted minority that China is systematically erasing. Making the TAO say, Chinese instead of Tibetan, is participating in one of the worst human rights abuses in the modern world. Casting a white person still sucks, but at least it isn't making a very unfortunate political statement.
I'm currently going with the fact that Benedict "I'm fuckin' Kublai Khan, sucka" Wong seems to be satisfied with the production to base my acceptance on.
Yeah. Yeah, they do.
in this open letter, there's an explicit call for the new Mulan to be Asian-American, instead of "appeal[ing] to a Chinese market". Claiming that Mulan's story (explicitly Chinese) is "essentially an Asian American tale" [sic]
People quibble. It's kinda what we do.
(to be clear: I'm not in a position to endorse or condemn the letter; I don't feel that the letter writer is some authority that can represent multiple cultures; Disney has already clarified the issue.)
Then one day you realize, "Hey, maybe I should give farmer B a shot, since I can get fresher produce at a cheaper price. Not because Farmer B is a better farmer, but simply due to market forces."
Now, like I said earlier, both Farmers produce equal quality. So intuitively, it would make sense for the progressive customer to buy from Farmer A and Farmer B equally. But economically, it doesn't make sense, simply because the market forces were already tilted so far in one direction.
At this point, it's the best way to get female directors an opportunity
Like... I'm sorry you're not going to get to watch some white dudes direct this series, this time.
You could watch, like... literally every other show ever made.
Michael Trim ... (8 episodes, 2013-2015)
Phil Abraham ... (7 episodes, 2013-2016)
Constantine Makris ... (7 episodes, 2013-2016)
Uta Briesewitz ... (4 episodes, 2013-2017)
Jodie Foster ... (2 episodes, 2013-2014)
Mark A. Burley ... (2 episodes, 2015-2016)
Matthew Penn ... (1 episode, 2013)
Allison Anders ... (1 episode, 2014)
S.J. Clarkson ... (1 episode, 2014)
Jennifer Getzinger ... (1 episode, 2014)
Daisy von Scherler Mayer ... (1 episode, 2014)
Anthony Hemingway ... (1 episode, 2015)
Nicole Holofcener ... (1 episode, 2015)
Jesse Peretz ... (1 episode, 2015)
Julie Anne Robinson ... (1 episode, 2015)
Adam Bernstein ... (1 episode, 2016)
Tricia Brock ... (1 episode, 2016)
Erin Feeley ... (1 episode, 2016)
Lev L. Spiro ... (1 episode, 2016)
Matthew Weiner ... (1 episode, 2016)
...Yeah
Not exactly, Marvel think they're totally in the clear politically with casting a white woman in this role. Whitewashing has no excuses. What's worse from the interviews I've seen/read (from the director?) they only wanted Tilda for the role. They didmd'r explore any other options, and they didn't want to rewrite the role either. As if that matters if they cast an Asian woman*, 1) they could keep the role as is with the new actress and 2) rewrite it for the new actress. Both are common in Hollywood.
Unfortunately this erases a huge role for an Asian actor, which they can't afford right now.
* who isn't Chinese: South Korean, Japanese, Fillipino, from Nepal descent etc.
Yes. Marvel does it, too. The film branch is notorious for it, Black Panther and Captain Marvel are exceptions - the rest are white men IIRC.
The thing is they were so close to getting this 100% right, except they keep on thinking whitewashing is there get out of jail free card when it comes to casting racially controversial characters. That they got it right with Wong and Mordo is why this is so weird. If they can do Wong right, why can't they do it for TAO?
The complaints about TAO aren't all binary, certainly not on this forum. Incremental progress is good sure, but there is no reason they had to settle for that wth TAO.
Ike did a lot of bad things, but Marvel's casting controversial decisions aren't all at his feet.
D & D has gone over this before, and the reasons about China were verging on conspiracy theories and what little examples we did have were absolutely nothing like TAO in this movie. We also never got sufficient detailed non -terrible reason from Marvel why an Asian (non-Chinese) or minority actress wasn't cast.
China hating on Tibetans is likewise an established fact.
Disney being a corporation dedicated to making money first and progressive anything second is also a well established fact. If one most people don't really want to face head on. Meaning they will be progressive as long as it doesn't get in the way of making money.
Based on the established facts and the theory "TAO was turned into a white woman to avoid offending the Chinese government and lose out on that sweet Chinese Yuan" is fairly credible.
The alternative theory is "we whitewashed TAO because we are just that racists that we will court controversy with progressives even though there is no money to be made from it".
One theory has history and money behind it and the other has active malice and lack of planning.
I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing having a Tibetan character in a Marvel movie is, or why there is no other options than a white woman who was the first actress they thought of.
I've asked for examples in the past and there was nothing remotely like TAO, either.
Then there's the fact that if they really were this pissed off about having a character remotely linked to Tibet Tilda wasn't going to sway them anyway. If they can do Tilda they'll be accepting a minority/Asian actress too.
In theory this makes sense in practice I'm not seeing this with Hollywood movies. Nor does this explain why they'd not be ok with the role going to an Asian actor. This being true also makes it odd why they wouldn't put a Chinese actress in the role if money is their biggest priority. Tilda is a famous actress, but she's no Matt Damon.
It's arguable Fox made a better play for China's dollars then IM3 with Blink
I disagree. Marvel didn't only have two options here to please China*, or are there other variables that could take China out of contention like they don't like seeing ghosts. That's why Ghostbusters wasn't shown there.
* I'm not seeing any arguments that China refuses to have movies where characters are of other ethnicities besides white. Just Tibetan.
Well, "money first, progressive second" doesn't discount that they might not want to actually contribute more to Tibetan erasure by casting a Chinese person. At least this way they can say, "LOL we're just dumb Americans, of course the wise and powerful character is white."
My personal theory is that the Ancient One is a magic person that can be of any race or gender it wants. Or it uses the bodies of volunteers for its immortality (we already know from the commercials that TAO can bap spirits out of bodies).
I just realized that Iron Fist and Doctor Strange basically have the same backstory. Jesus, how many white savior stories does Marvel have?
Iron Fist is their version of Bruce Lee created specially to cater to an audience of young white boys that wanted to see themselves as Heroic Martial Artists back in the 70s.
As for why they didn't cast an Asian Woman for TAO; Probably didn't want to give even a hint of TAO original origin. I mean if you are erasing the Tibet part, might as well go all the way, people are not going to be less mad at you. They probably could have gone for a black woman, but they had Chiwetel Ejiofor cast so probably didn't want to go too ethnic. White Audiences are still a thing.
As I outlined above, that was not their only option for TAO's non-white casting. Marvel hasn't given any reason why they did;t to this to my knowledge, as far as I know they hand't even glanced at as an option - all they wanted was Tilda Swinton as they first and last choice.
Doubling down on white saviors was a bad choice IMO. Not to mention if that's true money first clearly isn't their 100% reason for casting.
I've seen the movie, there's nothing there to hint at that. And assuming it was, it's bizarre that the only TAO form there would be a white woman given the history of Hollywood whitewashing. With that they could have had multiple people and genders portray the character.
This is something else entirely which would be overkill and the movie was totally ok portraying not!Tibet without any worries about China.
White audiences are fine with minorities portraying mentor characters in their movies for white leads.
That is unfortunate. After Luke Cage, Jessica Jones, and Black Panther, I was hoping for more from Marvel, to at least acknowledge the issue.
Just on general progressive principles, Marvel ought to have considered the issue and cast accordingly. Your line of reasoning feels like it ignores lead time and the idea that movie productions are ... well, productions; time-consuming, intensive affairs.
Jessica Jones landed 2 weeks after principal photography started on Doctor Strange. Civil War* was another 5 months away; Luke Cage was nearly a year out.
your suggestion, particularly vis-a-vis Black Panther, is frustrating - feedback to Civil War should be used to influence Doctor Strange ... despite the latter having been done with principal photography for a month (!) by the time audiences became exposed to the former.
which is all to say that Thor 3 (having begun filming in July) will be the first post-Black Panther film; if it has racial issues, citing Luke Cage as well wouldn't hold water.
* I'm simplifying the logic
Its nothing sinister, just that they had a chance to get an A list actor and put her somewhere and they did.
Tilda Swinton should be playing an alien more than anything else, but still an otherworldly being.
Let's refocus.
So hey, new season is pretty good
I'm curious what PA forumers' opinions are of season 2, because I'm seeing more mixed reviews of this compared to season 1. I'm way behind on my Netflix Marvel stuff, though. I've only seen Daredevil (both seasons) and Jessica Jones S1.
For real spoiler: