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Penny Arcade - Comic - Validation Syndrome

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited December 2015 in The Penny Arcade Hub

imagePenny Arcade - Comic - Validation Syndrome

Videogaming-related online strip by Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins. Includes news and commentary.

Read the full story here


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  • darthewokdarthewok Registered User regular
    I want to print this one out and hand it to every gamer I know.

    Fortunately they are all gamers so they probably are going to read it anyways.

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    This comic is wonderful.

  • NeuroskepticNeuroskeptic Registered User regular
    Savage

  • WhelmedWhelmed Registered User regular
    But Candy Crush isn't a real game, and it is diluting everything! Real being defined as "things I personally think are important and meaningful", of course.

  • TolkienfanmanTolkienfanman Registered User regular
    I like the continuity here.

  • benfinkelbenfinkel Registered User regular
    I definitely run into this though, with my in-laws.

    They're mostly all sort of "out of time". Grandpa was a steel worker living downtown before they shut down the plant and, as he likes to put it, "all the blacks moved in." Now he owns a small farm. His family helps him run it, up to their knees in cow shit every morning. Baling hay. Birthing calves, downing a gallon of tepid watery coffee every day.

    I know they look at me a little sideways whenever the phrase "video games" comes up. They're not sure they can trust a person who doesn't own a Carhart jacket. I know a little too much about computers for my own good. They're not mean, or bad people, or anything like that (well, except for racist grandpa) but they're just not sure I'm grown up and serious enough for their little girl (their little girl being a 34 year old litigation attorney). The fact that I not only own an Xbox but actually play games on it... well. They'd just prefer not to pay too close attention to that.

    Anyways, the comic is correct in that gaming has ingratiated itself into our society more than ever... but the judgment still comes in from funny out-of-the-way angles.

    -Ben
  • Hasty EscapeHasty Escape Registered User new member
    edited December 2015
    I feel like there is a difference between seeking approval and wanting people to not deride you. I'm sure there are some people that genuinely want all people to love all video games forever and always to validate their own feelings, but I also feel like it's easy to conflate those people with those who simply want ambivalence of opinion. You can say that the opinions of imaginary people who you don't know and will never meet shouldn't matter either way, but you can also say that negative comments from people who you don't know and will never meet aren't hurtful.

    Keep in mind, I'm not saying this comic doesn't make an excellent, and mostly accurate point, but I think the brush that is being painted with might be a tad broad.

    Hasty Escape on
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    The point is spot-on, but I'm curious what specific thing inspired the comic. The newspost should be interesting.

    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • DissentDissent Mr. Fancy Pants Flavour CountryRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    I remember playing this Candy Crush game on the NES when I was six. Back then it was more complex and aimed at smart people. We called it Tetris

    Dissent on
  • beeftruckbeeftruck Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Looks like G&T are as sick of the people reflexively exclaiming "Gaming MUST evolve and grow up as an art form (because I'm pushing forty and still writing for a glorified video game blog and I wish my job was respectable)" as anyone else.

    beeftruck on
  • MarcinMNMarcinMN Registered User regular
    I don't really feel judged for playing games anymore because it just doesn't come up in conversation for me.

    I've been playing games since the days of the Atari 2600. I suppose I play less now that I'm in my 40s than I did in my youth, but that's because I just don't have much free time for it lately. I don't feel that I actively hide the fact that I play games, but I suppose I don't often talk about it unless someone else brings it up first.

    Perhaps I'm just an anomaly here since I tend not to volunteer information about the details of my life -- gaming or otherwise -- unless people ask about something. And since people don't ask, I don't say. ;)

    "It's just as I've always said. We are being digested by an amoral universe."

    -Tycho Brahe
  • WordLustWordLust Fort Wayne, INRegistered User regular
    It's a complicated subject because games are made of so many things. They are made of visual art, for which you will have your visual art critics. They are made of software, for which you will have your various software critics. They are made of gameplay, for which you will have your gameplay critics. They are made of music, for which you will have your music critics. They are made of stories, for which you will have your story critics. But most of all you will have your average internet critic offering forth criticism of all these things in aggregate, since games are also more than the sum of their parts. (Although PA seems to deny the aggregate value whenever they give the argument that "of course games are art they are made of art".)

    When people call for "serious" games or express a desire for games "to be taken seriously", I don't think this arises from some kind of juvenile need for approval and validation. In fact, I think in a lot of people the feeling arises as they mature and start to feel like the juvenile appeals of video games no longer hook the way they used to. Not that they aren't still fun. But at some point you want to put away childish things and be an adult for a while. And not "adult" as in tits and blood everywhere. ADULT adult, as in expressing more mature and sophisticated ideas and themes.

    Jerry's news post is still great and is some text worth resharing, because the thing he is talking about there is a real thing. But I wonder if he's not conflating something with a need for approval that he perhaps should not be...?

    It's hard to know, though, without more context. I'm not sure what it is precisely they are reacting to.

  • I'm An Elk; Shoot MeI'm An Elk; Shoot Me It's Fiddler Crab Season! Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    The point is spot-on, but I'm curious what specific thing inspired the comic. The newspost should be interesting.

    The newspost.

    It starts with Jerry talking about how other people have inferiority complexes about gaming and then continues for 400 more words about his feelings on gaming

  • BursarBursar Hee Noooo! PDX areaRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    I have to say I'm a little insulted by this bit at the end:
    you will be an observer - that is to say, not a creator - forever, until the day you find a way to stop using creative people as a proxy for your own stunted drives. You can emerge from this cocoon you’ve made, or you can die inside it, half-formed.

    It's one thing to cheer on everyone by encouraging everyone to be a creator of something, but implying that unless you're a creator you're a waste of space isn't helpful.

    Bursar on
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  • adamgreeneyadamgreeney Registered User regular
    benfinkel wrote: »
    I definitely run into this though, with my in-laws.

    They're mostly all sort of "out of time". Grandpa was a steel worker living downtown before they shut down the plant and, as he likes to put it, "all the blacks moved in." Now he owns a small farm. His family helps him run it, up to their knees in cow shit every morning. Baling hay. Birthing calves, downing a gallon of tepid watery coffee every day.

    I know they look at me a little sideways whenever the phrase "video games" comes up. They're not sure they can trust a person who doesn't own a Carhart jacket. I know a little too much about computers for my own good. They're not mean, or bad people, or anything like that (well, except for racist grandpa) but they're just not sure I'm grown up and serious enough for their little girl (their little girl being a 34 year old litigation attorney). The fact that I not only own an Xbox but actually play games on it... well. They'd just prefer not to pay too close attention to that.

    Anyways, the comic is correct in that gaming has ingratiated itself into our society more than ever... but the judgment still comes in from funny out-of-the-way angles.

    I love this comment so much. Way to distill the family dynamics for way too many of us in the mid 20's-mid 30's.

  • WordLustWordLust Fort Wayne, INRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Cambiata wrote: »
    The point is spot-on, but I'm curious what specific thing inspired the comic. The newspost should be interesting.

    The newspost.

    It starts with Jerry talking about how other people have inferiority complexes about gaming and then continues for 400 more words about his feelings on gaming

    It's a paraphrase of an argument he's made before, so I doubt he "only figured it out last night". He's stated before an argument along the lines of, "the only proper reaction to art is to make more art". He's just repeating the same thing here. If someone makes art that offends you or that you're not satisfied with, then instead of trying to make that creator do the thing you want, go out and make the art you'd like to see instead.

    It's not a bad philosophy exactly, but something about it seems like special pleading or selective application.

    Are you saying that I can't criticize you? That's ridiculous, because anyone can criticize anything they want. Note: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24

    Are you criticizing games by pondering their aesthetic/cultural value? That's ridiculous because, in a complete reversal of the Kevin Smith comic, you should be making your own art instead of criticizing, you stupid critics. Note: today's comic.

    So on some level I get this sense that whether or not you are allowed to criticize something versus whether you should stop your complaining and make art instead depends on what mood Jerry is in that day and how much he likes the cut of your jib.

    Not that I'm hatin'. Super huge fan of The Holk.

    WordLust on
  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    beeftruck wrote: »
    Looks like G&T are as sick of the people reflexively exclaiming "Gaming MUST evolve and grow up as an art form (because I'm pushing forty and still writing for a glorified video game blog and I wish my job was respectable)" as anyone else.

    I agree. Change IS bad and scary.

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  • gbrooksgbrooks Registered User regular
    WordLust wrote: »

    It's not a bad philosophy exactly, but something about it seems like special pleading or selective application.

    Are you saying that I can't criticize you? That's ridiculous, because anyone can criticize anything they want. Note: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/24

    Are you criticizing games by pondering their aesthetic/cultural value? That's ridiculous because, in a complete reversal of the Kevin Smith comic, you should be making your own art instead of criticizing, you stupid critics. Note: today's comic.

    So on some level I get this sense that whether or not you are allowed to criticize something versus whether you should stop your complaining and make art instead depends on what mood Jerry is in that day and how much he likes the cut of your jib.

    I think you misunderstand the point of the 3/24/2004 comic and newspost. I think the point was that it's funny that Kevin Smith was saying he didn't make Jersey Girl for the critics, because it seemed like Kevin Smith already didn't make anything for critics, and Gabe and Tycho don't make anything for critics, and (maybe I'm interpreting too far here but I think not) creating things is never about making things for critics...so hey, critics, shut your critic-holes and get to creating instead!

  • wonkeythemonkeywonkeythemonkey Registered User new member
    Bursar wrote: »
    It's one thing to cheer on everyone by encouraging everyone to be a creator of something, but implying that unless you're a creator you're a waste of space isn't helpful.

    I didn't get that from the post at all. I interpreted it as being targeted at a specific type of complainer, the one who truly believes that they have better ideas than the person they are criticizing but doesn't put those ideas to any use.

    If you have a great idea for a work of art, make it! If you don't have the skills to make it, commission it! Just don't waste your time complaining to someone that is creating something because they didn't create it the way you would have done.

  • Ryan@Ryan@ Registered User regular
    Svifnarvbin Helmschdlonger from Norway approves of this comic, and of Gabe.

  • wonkeythemonkeywonkeythemonkey Registered User new member
    WordLust wrote: »
    Are you saying that I can't criticize you? That's ridiculous, because anyone can criticize anything they want.

    Yes they can. And creators can ignore any criticism that they want.
    Are you criticizing games by pondering their aesthetic/cultural value? That's ridiculous because, in a complete reversal of the Kevin Smith comic, you should be making your own art instead of criticizing, you stupid critics. Note: today's comic.

    The strip, and Tycho's post, aren't about "critics." A critic, at least formally speaking, is someone who evaluates the merit of someone else's work, ideally putting it in a context against which it can be compared and that is understood by the critic's audience. Their job is to answer questions like: Was it successful as a product/design/work of art? Was it pleasing? What emotional reactions did it evoke? How could it be improved?

    A professional (or serious amateur) critic does not expect the creator that they are evaluating to read their reviews and change accordingly. The creator is not the critic's intended audience.

    The people being targeted by this strip are those that cannot abide dissenting opinion and who make demands of creators to change things in accordance with their own wishes. That is not criticism, that's just complaining.

  • WhelmedWhelmed Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Bursar wrote: »
    I have to say I'm a little insulted by this bit at the end:
    you will be an observer - that is to say, not a creator - forever, until the day you find a way to stop using creative people as a proxy for your own stunted drives. You can emerge from this cocoon you’ve made, or you can die inside it, half-formed.

    It's one thing to cheer on everyone by encouraging everyone to be a creator of something, but implying that unless you're a creator you're a waste of space isn't helpful.

    I read this as taking a swipe at the common practice of identifying so heavily with the things you enjoy that when someone does not value that thing you feel that they do not value you. This happens with everything in the world but happens a surprising amount with video games. What someone is saying when they are mad that people don't take video games seriously is that they are mad that people don't take THEM seriously, but if video games are your proxy for your own importance, then you're just hanging out trying to ride in someone else's wagon. I think Jerry was saying, hey, if you do that, you'll never get out and you'll never have any control. Try making something out of yourself to value, not the trappings other people have made for you to wrap yourself in.

    Whelmed on
  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    The people being targeted by this strip are those that cannot abide dissenting opinion and who make demands of creators to change things in accordance with their own wishes. That is not criticism, that's just complaining.

    So, gamers, then?

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  • WordLustWordLust Fort Wayne, INRegistered User regular
    edited December 2015

    The people being targeted by this strip are those that cannot abide dissenting opinion and who make demands of creators to change things in accordance with their own wishes. That is not criticism, that's just complaining.

    That could be. Like I said, it's not really clear to me what exactly they are responding to, so you could be completely right about who the strip is targeting. Your guess is as good as mine.

    But even supposing you are right, I am still not sure I'm in 100% agreement with it. It makes sense to me in SOME contexts. For example, if we're talking about a bunch of gamers complaining that they didn't like the ending of Mass Effect or they didn't like the ending of Broken Age or they didn't like the ending of [insert game here] or whatever other thing besides endings gamers like to complain about, then I totally get it. It makes sense to me in that context that the audience doesn't get to throw a yoke on the creator and use them as some kind of creative proxy to manifest the things the non-creators either can't or won't or are too lazy to.

    But then you start getting into the thicket of something like depictions of women in gaming (yeah, sorry, I'm going there). If a person was concerned that depictions of women in games are, overall, too juvenile and designed with the male gaze in mind, and then Jerry were to say, "Stop trying to creatively control me, bro, and go make your own art," then that's kinda sadly dismissive of an entire important conversation. (I believe that was essentially the actual position he took regarding female body criticisms of a Vanillaware game a couple of years ago). In that case, yeah, nobody gets to tell you what to draw or what to write or whatever, but then if you take that even further and say nobody gets to tell ANYBODY what to draw or write, and therefore all these female body whiners should just draw their own kind of pictures and shut up, then A) Yes they should, but B) that also could be see as an attempt to delegitimize the conversation, which would be extremely not cool.

    "Stop trying to creatively control me" would not be the most tactful response to certain comics with wolves in it, as another example. There is a certain point where audience opinion and social/cultural issues do kind of matter (in regard to art produced specifically for audience consumption), whether your free spirit punk rock attitude likes it or not.

    WordLust on
  • master_swordmaster_sword Registered User regular
    Too good. I wonder if Kotaku is going to leave this one out of the Sunday Comics post again.

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Too good. I wonder if Kotaku is going to leave this one out of the Sunday Comics post again.

    Where did they say anything about Kotaku. Maybe you should stop seeking validation from strangers. :3

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  • master_swordmaster_sword Registered User regular
    It didn't have to. The previous one they left out didn't actually name them either. But they surely do love to downplay anything that goes against the groupthink, and a shot at the "games need to grow up" idea is a shot right across their bow.

  • je2 healthcareje2 healthcare Registered User regular
    Zython wrote: »
    Too good. I wonder if Kotaku is going to leave this one out of the Sunday Comics post again.

    Where did they say anything about Kotaku. Maybe you should stop seeking validation from strangers. :3

    You've made three posts in this thread, all of which are one-line insults directed at other posters.

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Zython wrote: »
    Too good. I wonder if Kotaku is going to leave this one out of the Sunday Comics post again.

    Where did they say anything about Kotaku. Maybe you should stop seeking validation from strangers. :3

    You've made three posts in this thread, all of which are one-line insults directed at other posters.

    Where have I insulted other posters?
    It didn't have to. The previous one they left out didn't actually name them either. But they surely do love to downplay anything that goes against the groupthink, and a shot at the "games need to grow up" idea is a shot right across their bow.

    Why do you hate the idea of questioning conventions in gaming? Without doing that, we wouldn't get games like The Last of Us or Undertale.

    Zython on
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  • master_swordmaster_sword Registered User regular
    Questioning conventions is a far cry from preaching from a soapbox, shitting on gamers that don't agree, and getting pissy when their ideas get rejected.

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    edited December 2015
    Questioning conventions is a far cry from preaching from a soapbox, shitting on gamers that don't agree, and getting pissy when their ideas get rejected.

    No. You stated your anger came from their desire for more sophisticated games, not their perceived rudeness.

    Edit: Honestly, I'm curious about which Kotaku piece offended you so badly.

    Zython on
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  • TubeTube Registered User admin
    Let's just all agree to not be shitheads shall we? Like a shithead truce.

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Very well. I agree to a truce. And that I'm a silly goose.

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  • drunkenpandarendrunkenpandaren Slapping all the goblin ham In the top laneRegistered User regular
    WordLust wrote: »
    Are you saying that I can't criticize you? That's ridiculous, because anyone can criticize anything they want.

    Yes they can. And creators can ignore any criticism that they want.
    Are you criticizing games by pondering their aesthetic/cultural value? That's ridiculous because, in a complete reversal of the Kevin Smith comic, you should be making your own art instead of criticizing, you stupid critics. Note: today's comic.

    The strip, and Tycho's post, aren't about "critics." A critic, at least formally speaking, is someone who evaluates the merit of someone else's work, ideally putting it in a context against which it can be compared and that is understood by the critic's audience. Their job is to answer questions like: Was it successful as a product/design/work of art? Was it pleasing? What emotional reactions did it evoke? How could it be improved?

    A professional (or serious amateur) critic does not expect the creator that they are evaluating to read their reviews and change accordingly. The creator is not the critic's intended audience.

    The people being targeted by this strip are those that cannot abide dissenting opinion and who make demands of creators to change things in accordance with their own wishes. That is not criticism, that's just complaining.

    I kind of disagree that that's what a critic is. Only because that lumps someone who does a really really good job at analyzing games and deconstructing them along with someone who just talks about and complains about them. Like, Mathewmatosis does a crazy good deconstruction with his critiques on games, or even Yahtzee, who makes fun of but makes some pretty strong points on what's wrong with system X. Where as Totalbiscuit just kind of complains.

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  • TyrannoSatanTyrannoSatan Registered User new member
    edited December 2015
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    TyrannoSatan on
  • MonkeyConQuesoMonkeyConQueso No more MH Claw Happy handsRegistered User regular
    I am enamored by the comic and the news post today. Only because it resonates with me and my personal observation with specific subsets of people who just sit back under their storm-cloud and wait for something new to come out that is beloved by any number of people, and then let dump their mouth's contents into the space where people are enjoying it. I am not speaking of review sites, or anything like that, but real encounters or message boards or any social environment. Like these special people know what's best for a game and are so spectacularly full of the RIGHT OPINION, when really the ones enjoying just want to...enjoy.

    Yes they may be right, yes they may have a valid observation, or even a fantastic idea for what should have happened...but habitually these people are poo-pooh'ing on these things because of some broken concept of theirs. I can't say what or why this happens, but I know it does. I know because I've been that person at times in the (hopefully) distant past when I just wanted to be RIGHT about what a TRASH thing that was, all the while talking with people who were actively enjoying said thing. It's a weird complex that is more related to the human condition, rather than some specific group of people.

    I'd say that the post clearly states by the end that maybe instead of being 'that person', just shrug and accept that it's not for you. If you feel it's that bad, go and do something creative to counter it and prove that something better can be done.

    Any ways, people are just people, and sometimes that means they are silly geese for no damn good reason.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I disagree with the concepts both of "Where do you get off complaining about something and demanding it change?" as well as "Changing ART is wrong because ART is SACRED." I also tend to roll my eyes at, "what good does complaining on the internet do??", because all the time, constantly, we see companies changing, people getting refunds, stores changing policies, games getting new endings from people complaining online.

    Ask for whatever you want, just don't be a shithead about it. Art isn't sacrosanct, it gets changed all the friggin' time. There's nothing wrong with complaining about things on the internet, and if you actually had a problem with it you wouldn't be complaining about it on the internet.

    "If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    I felt like several of the recent strips about the cultural elements of gaming have been kind of just bad, but I quite like this one.

  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."

    Obviously this exact same platitude comes up a lot so the comic does work as general commentary. Heck, 10 years ago people said the exact same about games where you shoot hookers and steal their money representing the industry.

    Hmmm...I would have to say I understand Tycho's dismissiveness of that comment. It does seem silly to say that gaming won't be taken seriously because of one stupid beach volleyball game. However, what he's missing is the greater context of that tweet. The "defense" that he was talking about was in response to people whining about how said volleyball game's lack of western release is a horrendous crime against humanity and free speech. Whining about how the loss of 13 year old cleavage, lack of western release of premium softcore porn, or editorial decisions about ass-slappings make players and gaming look WAY worse than the things they're defending ever could. The problem isn't the content, it's the horrendous lack of scope.

    Musing on this, I think Tycho (and possible Gabe)...how should I say this diplomatically...haven't really been paying much attention to the gaming community in recent years. Not that I blame them, they're pushing 40, have families and a whole host of obligations, I'd hate to meet the guy who CAN keep up with this shit in their situations. Hell, I'm probably too old to keep up with this shit. That said, I'd wish they'd realize that they don't have to (and probably shouldn't) opine on things they don't have all the information on.

    Assuming the catalyst for this comic is what you say it is, of course.

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  • cB557cB557 voOOP Registered User regular
    Quite belated, but for those asking for context, this is in response to a film critic recently tweeting "Video games will never be taken seriously as long as gamers breathlessly defend bikini babe volleyball games. The whole medium is being defined by people who jerk off to cartoons."
    Oh, dammit. Of course that's what this is about.

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