Ordinarily I have a problem with delaying a trial for a year to put a case together, but the scope of what these people have done is quite a bit broader than a black kid getting accused of stealing a backpack.
We're dealing with people who occupied a Federal building with the threat of violence against any who would dare interfere. They set up bombs. They shat on Native American artifacts, pretty much literally. The list of things they've done which a case needs to be built on is not a short one.
Even then, I would say tag them with an ankle bracelet and put them on house arrest, if not for the fact that these people are known to hole up, circle the wagons, and entrench themselves in places where it would be impossible to get them back. They are too risky to release.
I'm fine with giving them time served for however long they have to wait for their trial. I'm not shedding a single tear for them; they're being held for a reason.
Swift Trial is a relative term. Like some people wait a long time before they see the inside of a courtroom. Its why some plea deals have "time served" since they've been in jail/prison for a while.
It shouldn't be. If you can't nail them don't arrest them. The relative part is entirely a matter of prosecutors gaming the system (which is how Bowder got jailed for three years without a trial)
Courts get backed up, what do you want them do?
In Florida, there is a defined period for it, but that is 175 days for Felonies, 90 for misdemeanors.
You can file a motion for a speedy trial to get that cut down to 60. If the state misses it they have to hold a hearing within 5 days, and set a date within 10 if the delay was not the defendant 's fault.
If they miss THAT date, only then can you get cut loose.
Source (2002, but probably still in the ball park):
Yeah a key element to me is that until recently the FBI didn't have the crime scene available to process because of their felonious actions. In the same way I don't think a bomber should get to complain it took longer for charges to form against them because they booby trapped their house, these yabbos can't whine some of them have been in the pokey longer because the FBI didn't yet know the extent of the damage.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Yeah a key element to me is that until recently the FBI didn't have the crime scene available to process because of their felonious actions. In the same way I don't think a bomber should get to complain it took longer for charges to form against them because they booby trapped their house, these yabbos can't whine some of them have been in the pokey longer because the FBI didn't yet know the extent of the damage.
Similarly, they need time to prepare a defense against the evidence that is still being discovered. More time is not a completely one-sided benefit, it just sucks extra for them because they were justifiably denied bail.
Ordinarily I have a problem with delaying a trial for a year to put a case together, but the scope of what these people has done is quite a bit broader than a black kid getting accused of stealing a backpack.
We're dealing with people who occupied a Federal building with the threat of violence against any who would dare interfere. They set up bombs. They shat on Native American artifacts, pretty much literally. The list of things they've done which a case needs to be built on is not a short one.
Even then, I would say tag them with an ankle bracelet and put them on house arrest, if not for the fact that these people are known to hole up, circle the wagons, and entrench themselves in places where it would be impossible to get them back. They are too risky to release.
I'm fine with giving them time served for however long they have to wait for their trial. I'm not shedding a single tear for them; they're being held for a reason.
This is pretty much where I'm at atm; we have 25 some odd people who have engaged in a menagerie of crimes over the course of some 41 days and as such this is a pretty complicated affair.
How often does that factor of the 6th amendment really come into play? Like a prosecutor made an arrest on one charge before other charges were ready and the judge banned them from bringing the separate charges in the same trial, or they get arrested and it takes too long to put together the case against them, so they get let off because of a 6th amendment violation.
Can you flesh this out a bit? Prosecutors amend charging instruments in a case quite often, especially when new evidence was found. Jeopardy doesn't attach at this point in case.
I dunno what defense they have since again we have video, and their own statements. But I've been surprised before.
They're going to argue that the Federal government doesn't have the rights to the land, that the FBI murdered Lavoy, that this was a peaceful protest, that the people wanted their help, and that obama is a kaka poopoo doody head.
Seriously though, I'm kind of expecting Ammond to throw the majority of these guys under the bus super hard. Like, I doubt that he'll plea bargain since it would destroy his credibility amongst these assholes but odds are he'll just talk about how he had no idea they were going to crap all over heritage sites, mis-appropriate federal vehicles, build explosives or tear down fence lines.
Now, he doesn't have a problem with them doing those things and maybe he even praised them at the time for it or talked about how it would be a good idea, but he never actually said that the protesters should do it so really he can't be held accountable for it.
Seriously though, I'm kind of expecting Ammond to throw the majority of these guys under the bus super hard. Like, I doubt that he'll plea bargain since it would destroy his credibility amongst these assholes but odds are he'll just talk about how he had no idea they were going to crap all over heritage sites, mis-appropriate federal vehicles, build explosives or tear down fence lines.
Now, he doesn't have a problem with them doing those things and maybe he even praised them at the time for it or talked about how it would be a good idea, but he never actually said that the protesters should do it so really he can't be held accountable for it.
What I suspect will tank this defense is that they conspired to do it. Like we have video evidence of at least some of them saying which members should do what. How that would fully factor in I dunno as ianal, but I can think of at least one case where the "but I didn't actually do anything myself!" defense failed spectacularly. Admittedly it is not really similar, but proof that the government doesn't put up with that bullshit.
Ammond's issue I believe is he got tagged for 2014 along with recent events. And he was front and center as being in charge, it'll be super hard to allege "Well I was leading it but not really leading it."
Its just funny these guys thought they were so untouchable they did things ON FUCKING VIDEO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE TAKING!
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Ammond's issue I believe is he got tagged for 2014 along with recent events. And he was front and center as being in charge, it'll be super hard to allege "Well I was leading it but not really leading it."
Its just funny these guys thought they were so untouchable they did things ON FUCKING VIDEO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE TAKING!
They were fighting for FREEDOM. I see it kind of like a bunch of kids on a playground who realize they have some power as a group and decide to wield it against the school and recess aides. They get riled up and make a big exciting stand and never really stop to think about possible consequences. Then they inevitably lose and the detentions start flowing and they're all staring at their feet trying to figure how they could possibly be so dumb as to have got involved in the first place.
Ammond's issue I believe is he got tagged for 2014 along with recent events. And he was front and center as being in charge, it'll be super hard to allege "Well I was leading it but not really leading it."
Its just funny these guys thought they were so untouchable they did things ON FUCKING VIDEO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE TAKING!
Too bad Stringer Bell wasn't around to yell at them.
How often does that factor of the 6th amendment really come into play? Like a prosecutor made an arrest on one charge before other charges were ready and the judge banned them from bringing the separate charges in the same trial, or they get arrested and it takes too long to put together the case against them, so they get let off because of a 6th amendment violation.
Can you flesh this out a bit? Prosecutors amend charging instruments in a case quite often, especially when new evidence was found. Jeopardy doesn't attach at this point in case.
Mostly how often do people either A) Get charged with less than they should have because the time it would take to put the trial together invoked the 6th or Get off completely because as Arbitrary said above, the state has a statute on timeliness and the prosecution simply wasn't fast enough?
How often does that factor of the 6th amendment really come into play? Like a prosecutor made an arrest on one charge before other charges were ready and the judge banned them from bringing the separate charges in the same trial, or they get arrested and it takes too long to put together the case against them, so they get let off because of a 6th amendment violation.
Can you flesh this out a bit? Prosecutors amend charging instruments in a case quite often, especially when new evidence was found. Jeopardy doesn't attach at this point in case.
Mostly how often do people either A) Get charged with less than they should have because the time it would take to put the trial together invoked the 6th or Get off completely because as Arbitrary said above, the state has a statute on timeliness and the prosecution simply wasn't fast enough?
Swift Trial is a relative term. Like some people wait a long time before they see the inside of a courtroom. Its why some plea deals have "time served" since they've been in jail/prison for a while.
Again, I'm not sure the answer is always "If this guy had his rights grievously violated, then we should do that more". The answer is always violate rights less, not to do it more to even things out.
This isn't so much an argument against keeping the Oregon people for as long as they have, because there's legitimate circumstances surrounding that, but just against this general kind of retort.
Swift Trial is a relative term. Like some people wait a long time before they see the inside of a courtroom. Its why some plea deals have "time served" since they've been in jail/prison for a while.
Ya there may be some very heavy personal bias here, but I wouldn't mind at all if they sat for around 11 1/2 months in a jail cell before they got a court date.....
By the bye, have we decided how cursed one gets after shitting all over an Indian burial ground?
I'm pretty sure their were quite a few expletives uttered involving the militants, their parents, children and pets by the various members of the Paiute...
By the bye, have we decided how cursed one gets after shitting all over an Indian burial ground?
Not all native americans believe in curses, lets not be racist against a people that just got shat upon.
The Paiute were the originators of the Ghost Dance. The occupiers were already freedoming their way into the realm of vengeful ancestral spirits before they started willfully desecrating remains.
Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.
- John Stuart Mill
+1
Options
jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
Ammond's issue I believe is he got tagged for 2014 along with recent events. And he was front and center as being in charge, it'll be super hard to allege "Well I was leading it but not really leading it."
Its just funny these guys thought they were so untouchable they did things ON FUCKING VIDEO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE TAKING!
They were fighting for FREEDOM. I see it kind of like a bunch of kids on a playground who realize they have some power as a group and decide to wield it against the school and recess aides. They get riled up and make a big exciting stand and never really stop to think about possible consequences. Then they inevitably lose and the detentions start flowing and they're all staring at their feet trying to figure how they could possibly be so dumb as to have got involved in the first place.
This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the people involved.
This wasn't some wake up call or snap back to reality. This, to them, is proof positive of overreach by and oppression from big mama fed. I'm sure there are a couple people regretting ever coming, but they don't regret it because it was fucking stupid and doomed to fail.... no no... they regret it because the Feds always get their way and they shoulda blown a few more away when they had the chance. The delusion it takes to engage in a hostile takeover of a bird sanctuary outside of your home state for people who don't even want you there is fathoms deep. True delusion doesn't go away when reality comes Kool-Aid-Manning itself through, it simply rebuilds the wall and reinforces it to boot.
Swift Trial is a relative term. Like some people wait a long time before they see the inside of a courtroom. Its why some plea deals have "time served" since they've been in jail/prison for a while.
Ya there may be some very heavy personal bias here, but I wouldn't mind at all if they sat for around 11 1/2 months in a jail cell before they got a court date.....
While a year really is way too long before having your trial, all of these motherfuckers are gonna get 5+ years so sitting off a fraction of that before the penalty is served is a non-issue.
In the meantime, there is a separate trial pending for Mr. Schuyler Barbeau, Cliven's "bodyguard" who was arrested back in December before he could join the occupation in Malheur. He was arrested on firearms offences following e-mails like this one to Federal employees.
Man there is stupid, and then there is "threaten government officials because so far no one has been arrested yet" stupid.
Necessary part of the process to convince yourself nothing is going to happen to you.
I dunno this is like seeing one car narrowly miss your friend on the highway, and then just stroll on there yourself. "Well one car didn't hit us, we're invulnerable."
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Man there is stupid, and then there is "threaten government officials because so far no one has been arrested yet" stupid.
Necessary part of the process to convince yourself nothing is going to happen to you.
I dunno this is like seeing one car narrowly miss your friend on the highway, and then just stroll on there yourself. "Well one car didn't hit us, we're invulnerable."
I'm suddenly reminded of the scene they had to cut from The Program.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
0
Options
No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
At what point in legal territory does stupidity cross the threshold into mental illness??
Posts
We're dealing with people who occupied a Federal building with the threat of violence against any who would dare interfere. They set up bombs. They shat on Native American artifacts, pretty much literally. The list of things they've done which a case needs to be built on is not a short one.
Even then, I would say tag them with an ankle bracelet and put them on house arrest, if not for the fact that these people are known to hole up, circle the wagons, and entrench themselves in places where it would be impossible to get them back. They are too risky to release.
I'm fine with giving them time served for however long they have to wait for their trial. I'm not shedding a single tear for them; they're being held for a reason.
In Florida, there is a defined period for it, but that is 175 days for Felonies, 90 for misdemeanors.
You can file a motion for a speedy trial to get that cut down to 60. If the state misses it they have to hold a hearing within 5 days, and set a date within 10 if the delay was not the defendant 's fault.
If they miss THAT date, only then can you get cut loose.
Source (2002, but probably still in the ball park):
https://www.floridabar.org/divcom/jn/jnjournal01.nsf/Author/F8A89AE8BF8AE6E485256C8300776C69
pleasepaypreacher.net
Similarly, they need time to prepare a defense against the evidence that is still being discovered. More time is not a completely one-sided benefit, it just sucks extra for them because they were justifiably denied bail.
pleasepaypreacher.net
This is pretty much where I'm at atm; we have 25 some odd people who have engaged in a menagerie of crimes over the course of some 41 days and as such this is a pretty complicated affair.
Can you flesh this out a bit? Prosecutors amend charging instruments in a case quite often, especially when new evidence was found. Jeopardy doesn't attach at this point in case.
They're going to argue that the Federal government doesn't have the rights to the land, that the FBI murdered Lavoy, that this was a peaceful protest, that the people wanted their help, and that obama is a kaka poopoo doody head.
Now, he doesn't have a problem with them doing those things and maybe he even praised them at the time for it or talked about how it would be a good idea, but he never actually said that the protesters should do it so really he can't be held accountable for it.
What I suspect will tank this defense is that they conspired to do it. Like we have video evidence of at least some of them saying which members should do what. How that would fully factor in I dunno as ianal, but I can think of at least one case where the "but I didn't actually do anything myself!" defense failed spectacularly. Admittedly it is not really similar, but proof that the government doesn't put up with that bullshit.
Its just funny these guys thought they were so untouchable they did things ON FUCKING VIDEO THAT THEY THEMSELVES WERE TAKING!
pleasepaypreacher.net
They were fighting for FREEDOM. I see it kind of like a bunch of kids on a playground who realize they have some power as a group and decide to wield it against the school and recess aides. They get riled up and make a big exciting stand and never really stop to think about possible consequences. Then they inevitably lose and the detentions start flowing and they're all staring at their feet trying to figure how they could possibly be so dumb as to have got involved in the first place.
Too bad Stringer Bell wasn't around to yell at them.
Mostly how often do people either A) Get charged with less than they should have because the time it would take to put the trial together invoked the 6th or
Pretty rare in federal court, I would say.
Again, I'm not sure the answer is always "If this guy had his rights grievously violated, then we should do that more". The answer is always violate rights less, not to do it more to even things out.
This isn't so much an argument against keeping the Oregon people for as long as they have, because there's legitimate circumstances surrounding that, but just against this general kind of retort.
Ya there may be some very heavy personal bias here, but I wouldn't mind at all if they sat for around 11 1/2 months in a jail cell before they got a court date.....
- John Stuart Mill
I think the jury's still out on that.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Not all native americans believe in curses, lets not be racist against a people that just got shat upon.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I'm pretty sure their were quite a few expletives uttered involving the militants, their parents, children and pets by the various members of the Paiute...
The Paiute were the originators of the Ghost Dance. The occupiers were already freedoming their way into the realm of vengeful ancestral spirits before they started willfully desecrating remains.
- John Stuart Mill
This seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the people involved.
This wasn't some wake up call or snap back to reality. This, to them, is proof positive of overreach by and oppression from big mama fed. I'm sure there are a couple people regretting ever coming, but they don't regret it because it was fucking stupid and doomed to fail.... no no... they regret it because the Feds always get their way and they shoulda blown a few more away when they had the chance. The delusion it takes to engage in a hostile takeover of a bird sanctuary outside of your home state for people who don't even want you there is fathoms deep. True delusion doesn't go away when reality comes Kool-Aid-Manning itself through, it simply rebuilds the wall and reinforces it to boot.
Boo! Get off the stage!
Loads of detail here
pleasepaypreacher.net
Necessary part of the process to convince yourself buying is going to happen to you.
I dunno this is like seeing one car narrowly miss your friend on the highway, and then just stroll on there yourself. "Well one car didn't hit us, we're invulnerable."
pleasepaypreacher.net
I'm suddenly reminded of the scene they had to cut from The Program.
That would complicate things
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I'm asking this sincerely. mmmmm @So It Goes