I think I get why DoW2 had the cover system it did, but seriously nothing in the 40k universe cares about a little mound of dirt or a few rocks as "cover". I'm down with mostly deployable cover and maybe the ability for certain vehicles and drop pods to provide some slight bonuses as well if it means less hiding in buildings and more waaaagh.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
I think I get why DoW2 had the cover system it did, but seriously nothing in the 40k universe cares about a little mound of dirt or a few rocks as "cover". I'm down with mostly deployable cover and maybe the ability for certain vehicles and drop pods to provide some slight bonuses as well if it means less hiding in buildings and more waaaagh.
I think that's a bit of a lopsided view. Cover has always been important in the game and in backgrounf even Space Marines use cover and stealth tactics and parts of the Imperial Guard like cover so much that trench warfare is their favourite fighting style.
Nothing much to add on my previous post, but someone put a video up largely themed on the same topic (DoW3's visuals). Seemed like a decent discussion of the topic so I thought I'd post it here.
I asked in the help forum, but thought i might ask in here as well. Anyone have any experience with dow2 on a computer with integrated graphics, namely Intel hd 520? My laptop seems good enough wrt processor and ram (8gb, i5), but i have problems trying to compare my modern integrated graphics card with older dedicated graphic cards....
I tried to play Dawn of War 2 just now... is there any way to remap the camera controls from the cursor keys to WASD or ESDF? This is on a laptop, and my right hand's on the trackpad. I can edge-scroll around, but it's not great.
EDIT: I guess the issue is that to get to the cursor keys, I have to cross my left hand over the right since the trackpad is keyboard-centered. It's awkward.
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
The fuck is with Gabriel's voice? Why do they keep leaving out one or more of the Dobson brothers in the sequels of Dawn of War, when they and the other VAs were probably the best part of the presentation? You might as well just have a new character, like the DoW expansions and the Force Commander in DoW2.
The fuck is with Gabriel's voice? Why do they keep leaving out one or more of the Dobson brothers in the sequels of Dawn of War, when they and the other VAs were probably the best part of the presentation?
At a guess, probably because they just weren't available in time for recording. By the looks of things they both do a tonne of anime / cartoon VA work.
That "cover" system is super meh, but I guess I can over look it. The rest of the game play seems fun but it honestly looks very... blobby with the tactic stuff.
What I really want is DOW2.5.
Actually I just want anything with space marines in it because they are always cool to play.
I saw a kid get handed a JB poster by who I presume was his parents outside my store today....he tore it in half infront of his horrified parents.....There's hope for our youth yet!
That "cover" system is super meh, but I guess I can over look it. The rest of the game play seems fun but it honestly looks very... blobby with the tactic stuff.
In Mutliplayer I think it's going to depend HEAVILY on how they balance it for things like durability and capture speed, what other aspects there are to it, as well as things like positioning around capture points. Basically the idea itself I don't have an issue with, but I feel like for something like that it's going to come down to how they actually implement it. There is so much that can go on with implementation that it's hard for me to even say it would or wouldn't be 'dull' or 'strategic' or 'broken' or whatever.
Having what is effectively a temporary invulnerability sphere situated somewhere near a capture point would at first appear to give a HEAVY advantage to a first mover willing to grab it. Early game being what it is, it's unlikely your opponent would be able to dump enough firepower into it to make you vulnerable before having to retreat from too much damage. But then you get into the nitty-gritty of how it could work:
- How long does it take to capture? Is your squad effectively tied in place if you want to use it? Because if it takes a long time to "capture" and/or "deactivates" quickly on leaving, it means you have to plan significantly in advance if you want to use it, instead of simply being able to waltz into it as soon as you see the enemy.
- That goes doubly so because in a game about moving around the map and capturing positions, effectively abandoning a squad to "guard a point" is losing significant capping power early on, and might actually only really make such cover positions viable
- Can the squad fire whilst capturing? Because if it can't then, again, you need to plan well in advance whether you want to use it or not, and it can't just be like the garrisons / cover of the other games.
- Is there still going to be that melee / ranged dynamic where tying units up in melee means they can't fire? Because you're going to have a major risk/reward decision to make if you decide to try and stand your ground in your shielded position when Choppa's are bearing down on you. Even more-so if they've still got the dynamic where retreating units take less ranged but more melee damage.
- Will simply rushing in with melee units therefore be viable to flush the enemy out? Or does damage happen so fast at those ranges that you wouldn't be able to simply waltz in and take it with the equivalent of Fleet-of-Foot Banshees?
- How quickly do counter-play squads like Assault Marines come into play in the course of a general game? Even if they don't take ranged damage, can they still be vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks?
- Will different weapons have different damage rates to it? How long does it take to recover when it "fails"? Is it ultimately being designed as something to survive capture point "sieges" when the map has already been divided up, or is it more about an early tactical advantage which basically becomes something you ignore when the expensive squads / abilities hit the field?
Basically I feel like what would make it awesome or meh comes down to the details of the gameplay itself and how it fits in the overall tactics of the gameplay. Whether it'd be more an early-game or a late game thing (or even stays viable throughout), whether it favours certain race matchups, stuff like that.
I raise this because so many of DoW2's core rules were tweaked and changed over time, even years later, to develop more interesting games and matchups and to make sure all the mechanics had a place. I mean, when DoW2 first launched there wasn't really a clear gameplay design on what squads should and shouldn't cost power to build, how commander "armour" worked, the interplay between melee and ranged and armoured and conventional units, suppression and all that stuff. It basically all came down to nuances that were built up and established over time.
Just look at how Banshee's fared in all the balance shenanigans going on in DoW2. Banshees went through crazy phases where they were super underpowered (could never get them into melee range without suffering heavy losses) when they weren't impossible to use (when the game first launched, suppression squads didn't cost power, so your first squad purchase could be a suppression squad. Any melee running into that was basically doomed), then super overpowered (lasted longer, and could leap over cover, had far more knockback attacks, AND did extra damage to retreating units) and eventually settled on being the glass cannons they ended up being.
All of this is a spectacularly long winded way of saying: I don't think we can judge just how interesting an addition to tactics such a thing is until we see more about it in its context and in the overall flow of the game.
Actually I just want anything with space marines in it because they are always cool to play.
Orkz is the fight'e'est and da best.
subedii on
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I am pretty happy with what I am seeing.
This especially as someone very frustrated and angered by how the cover mechanics in DoW2 made units act stupidly or do things you didn't want them to do. No, I don't want that hero to escape on 1 HP because you're running BACKWARDS to take cover. Just. Fucking. Shoot. Him.
This especially as someone very frustrated and angered by how the cover mechanics in DoW2 made units act stupidly or do things you didn't want them to do. No, I don't want that hero to escape on 1 HP because you're running BACKWARDS to take cover. Just. Fucking. Shoot. Him.
Yeah, whilst at first glance it's a return to the DoW1 system, the fact that the new cover appears to be straight up invulnerability, takes time to capture, and has limited "power" (as opposed to being simply % damage mitigation, permanent and immediate when you're there) gives it a pretty different wrinkly on how it would work in actual gameplay.
I'm OK with positional cover remaining in CoH. The DoW series always did feel as if they were more free to go with straight up more "gamey" and experimental ideas.
the dow2 cover model really doesn't scale with the big army sizes. getting all those individual dudes behind individual cover spots is a huge micromanagement burden and pathfinding challenge.
That "cover" system is super meh, but I guess I can over look it. The rest of the game play seems fun but it honestly looks very... blobby with the tactic stuff.
In Mutliplayer I think it's going to depend HEAVILY on how they balance it for things like durability and capture speed, what other aspects there are to it, as well as things like positioning around capture points. Basically the idea itself I don't have an issue with, but I feel like for something like that it's going to come down to how they actually implement it. There is so much that can go on with implementation that it's hard for me to even say it would or wouldn't be 'dull' or 'strategic' or 'broken' or whatever.
Having what is effectively a temporary invulnerability sphere situated somewhere near a capture point would at first appear to give a HEAVY advantage to a first mover willing to grab it. Early game being what it is, it's unlikely your opponent would be able to dump enough firepower into it to make you vulnerable before having to retreat from too much damage. But then you get into the nitty-gritty of how it could work:
- How long does it take to capture? Is your squad effectively tied in place if you want to use it? Because if it takes a long time to "capture" and/or "deactivates" quickly on leaving, it means you have to plan significantly in advance if you want to use it, instead of simply being able to waltz into it as soon as you see the enemy.
- That goes doubly so because in a game about moving around the map and capturing positions, effectively abandoning a squad to "guard a point" is losing significant capping power early on, and might actually only really make such cover positions viable
- Can the squad fire whilst capturing? Because if it can't then, again, you need to plan well in advance whether you want to use it or not, and it can't just be like the garrisons / cover of the other games.
- Is there still going to be that melee / ranged dynamic where tying units up in melee means they can't fire? Because you're going to have a major risk/reward decision to make if you decide to try and stand your ground in your shielded position when Choppa's are bearing down on you. Even more-so if they've still got the dynamic where retreating units take less ranged but more melee damage.
- Will simply rushing in with melee units therefore be viable to flush the enemy out? Or does damage happen so fast at those ranges that you wouldn't be able to simply waltz in and take it with the equivalent of Fleet-of-Foot Banshees?
- How quickly do counter-play squads like Assault Marines come into play in the course of a general game? Even if they don't take ranged damage, can they still be vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks?
- Will different weapons have different damage rates to it? How long does it take to recover when it "fails"? Is it ultimately being designed as something to survive capture point "sieges" when the map has already been divided up, or is it more about an early tactical advantage which basically becomes something you ignore when the expensive squads / abilities hit the field?
Basically I feel like what would make it awesome or meh comes down to the details of the gameplay itself and how it fits in the overall tactics of the gameplay. Whether it'd be more an early-game or a late game thing (or even stays viable throughout), whether it favours certain race matchups, stuff like that.
I raise this because so many of DoW2's core rules were tweaked and changed over time, even years later, to develop more interesting games and matchups and to make sure all the mechanics had a place. I mean, when DoW2 first launched there wasn't really a clear gameplay design on what squads should and shouldn't cost power to build, how commander "armour" worked, the interplay between melee and ranged and armoured and conventional units, suppression and all that stuff. It basically all came down to nuances that were built up and established over time.
Just look at how Banshee's fared in all the balance shenanigans going on in DoW2. Banshees went through crazy phases where they were super underpowered (could never get them into melee range without suffering heavy losses) when they weren't impossible to use (when the game first launched, suppression squads didn't cost power, so your first squad purchase could be a suppression squad. Any melee running into that was basically doomed), then super overpowered (lasted longer, and could leap over cover, had far more knockback attacks, AND did extra damage to retreating units) and eventually settled on being the glass cannons they ended up being.
All of this is a spectacularly long winded way of saying: I don't think we can judge just how interesting an addition to tactics such a thing is until we see more about it in its context and in the overall flow of the game.
Actually I just want anything with space marines in it because they are always cool to play.
Orkz is the fight'e'est and da best.
You make some mighty good points, my only rebuke to thay is... the cover doesn't look like cover they went half way between a bunk and some sand bags. It just feels out of place to be honest. That's really gripe.
It also seems fairly easy with any units with mobility to negate that cover. We'll have to wait and see.
Orks are merely fungus waiting to be crushed under my boot!
I saw a kid get handed a JB poster by who I presume was his parents outside my store today....he tore it in half infront of his horrified parents.....There's hope for our youth yet!
the dow2 cover model really doesn't scale with the big army sizes. getting all those individual dudes behind individual cover spots is a huge micromanagement burden and pathfinding challenge.
I can see how that would make things unbalanced in favour of Space Marines.
Well I just watched that video. I really like what they've got going on. I also like the cover system. I don't have to fight the fences and ridges to try to get all of my squad in the "good" cover instead of leaving 1 or 2 guys outside it. Interesting that it takes time to build up though. Doesn't seem like it would be all that helpful to leapfrog cover to cover during an advance though.
But man the detail. The fire jets on top of the imperial knight? The overheated missiles leaving a fire pool? Those are the kinds of details that just suck me in. YES PLEASE!
I'm hoping that the cover varies depending on who's territory you're kicking ass in.
Those circles with force shields look very Eldar to me.
Orks with ramshackle barricades built out of wreckage. Maybe metal box or bunkers for the Spess Marines.
I mean, they'd all function the same, providing cover from ranged weapons once you took them, but visually they'd be distinct.
I'm hoping that the cover varies depending on who's territory you're kicking ass in.
Those circles with force shields look very Eldar to me.
Orks with ramshackle barricades built out of wreckage. Maybe metal box or bunkers for the Spess Marines.
I mean, they'd all function the same, providing cover from ranged weapons once you took them, but visually they'd be distinct.
I'd like that, just for diversity. Need to have me some mean looking fortifications in the game.
I saw a kid get handed a JB poster by who I presume was his parents outside my store today....he tore it in half infront of his horrified parents.....There's hope for our youth yet!
I'm hoping that the cover varies depending on who's territory you're kicking ass in.
Those circles with force shields look very Eldar to me.
Orks with ramshackle barricades built out of wreckage. Maybe metal box or bunkers for the Spess Marines.
I mean, they'd all function the same, providing cover from ranged weapons once you took them, but visually they'd be distinct.
Speaking of METAL BAWKSES, I wonder whatever happened to the Rhino they made. I mean since after THQ imploded.
also, solaria just became my favorite character in warhammer 40k.
she drives a mech. and it has overheat mechanics just like in mechwarrior. :tell_me_more:
also, solaria just became my favorite character in warhammer 40k.
she drives a mech. and it has overheat mechanics just like in mechwarrior. :tell_me_more:
I don't know if it's just like MechWarrior.
I mean, when your mech overheats, it's bad news generally resulting in shutdown or ammo cooking off.
When the Knight overheats, the missiles start leaving pools of fire on the ground when they hit.
from a tabletop perspective, its bullshit because I gotta shell out 200$ for another obscenely overpriced plastic statue for gaming.
but my love of all things mechwarrior will outlast the heat death of the universe.
i know there's differences, but her mech has an overheat mechanic and I'm ok with that.
Personally, I feel Epic was the height of (casual) WH40K and I'm really surprised that they have never updated/released it in 20 (ish?) years. Rolling 40 dice at a time to decide the fate of hundreds of souls has never been topped. The demise of Squat Artillery Trains and Ork Gargants was a true blow to the franchise which no doubt directly lead to Games Workshop near collapse in the 2000's.
I'm sure the campaign will have a mix of missions in between small squad ops and huge armies and Last Stand will be coming eventually. In the meantime, I am hyped for Titans and can only hope this game forces GW to bring back Epic :P
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
They said something about 'controlling Titans?' Dunno what that means. Maybe we build them, maybe they're special units in a campaign mission or something. I do like big super-units, though usually I find them to not be the most effective thing to shoot for. Having a real Gargant stomping around would be pretty great though.
Posts
I think DoW2 should have done more to take from CoH2. I didn't really like the scale of the battles in DoW2 multi but CoH was just right.
I think that's a bit of a lopsided view. Cover has always been important in the game and in backgrounf even Space Marines use cover and stealth tactics and parts of the Imperial Guard like cover so much that trench warfare is their favourite fighting style.
http://laptoping.com/gpus/product/intel-hd-520-graphics-specs-reviews/
So how do you like your career as a digital drug dealer?
EDIT: I guess the issue is that to get to the cursor keys, I have to cross my left hand over the right since the trackpad is keyboard-centered. It's awkward.
At a guess, probably because they just weren't available in time for recording. By the looks of things they both do a tonne of anime / cartoon VA work.
What I really want is DOW2.5.
Actually I just want anything with space marines in it because they are always cool to play.
In Mutliplayer I think it's going to depend HEAVILY on how they balance it for things like durability and capture speed, what other aspects there are to it, as well as things like positioning around capture points. Basically the idea itself I don't have an issue with, but I feel like for something like that it's going to come down to how they actually implement it. There is so much that can go on with implementation that it's hard for me to even say it would or wouldn't be 'dull' or 'strategic' or 'broken' or whatever.
Having what is effectively a temporary invulnerability sphere situated somewhere near a capture point would at first appear to give a HEAVY advantage to a first mover willing to grab it. Early game being what it is, it's unlikely your opponent would be able to dump enough firepower into it to make you vulnerable before having to retreat from too much damage. But then you get into the nitty-gritty of how it could work:
- How long does it take to capture? Is your squad effectively tied in place if you want to use it? Because if it takes a long time to "capture" and/or "deactivates" quickly on leaving, it means you have to plan significantly in advance if you want to use it, instead of simply being able to waltz into it as soon as you see the enemy.
- That goes doubly so because in a game about moving around the map and capturing positions, effectively abandoning a squad to "guard a point" is losing significant capping power early on, and might actually only really make such cover positions viable
- Can the squad fire whilst capturing? Because if it can't then, again, you need to plan well in advance whether you want to use it or not, and it can't just be like the garrisons / cover of the other games.
- Is there still going to be that melee / ranged dynamic where tying units up in melee means they can't fire? Because you're going to have a major risk/reward decision to make if you decide to try and stand your ground in your shielded position when Choppa's are bearing down on you. Even more-so if they've still got the dynamic where retreating units take less ranged but more melee damage.
- Will simply rushing in with melee units therefore be viable to flush the enemy out? Or does damage happen so fast at those ranges that you wouldn't be able to simply waltz in and take it with the equivalent of Fleet-of-Foot Banshees?
- How quickly do counter-play squads like Assault Marines come into play in the course of a general game? Even if they don't take ranged damage, can they still be vulnerable to stuns and knockbacks?
- Will different weapons have different damage rates to it? How long does it take to recover when it "fails"? Is it ultimately being designed as something to survive capture point "sieges" when the map has already been divided up, or is it more about an early tactical advantage which basically becomes something you ignore when the expensive squads / abilities hit the field?
Basically I feel like what would make it awesome or meh comes down to the details of the gameplay itself and how it fits in the overall tactics of the gameplay. Whether it'd be more an early-game or a late game thing (or even stays viable throughout), whether it favours certain race matchups, stuff like that.
I raise this because so many of DoW2's core rules were tweaked and changed over time, even years later, to develop more interesting games and matchups and to make sure all the mechanics had a place. I mean, when DoW2 first launched there wasn't really a clear gameplay design on what squads should and shouldn't cost power to build, how commander "armour" worked, the interplay between melee and ranged and armoured and conventional units, suppression and all that stuff. It basically all came down to nuances that were built up and established over time.
Just look at how Banshee's fared in all the balance shenanigans going on in DoW2. Banshees went through crazy phases where they were super underpowered (could never get them into melee range without suffering heavy losses) when they weren't impossible to use (when the game first launched, suppression squads didn't cost power, so your first squad purchase could be a suppression squad. Any melee running into that was basically doomed), then super overpowered (lasted longer, and could leap over cover, had far more knockback attacks, AND did extra damage to retreating units) and eventually settled on being the glass cannons they ended up being.
All of this is a spectacularly long winded way of saying: I don't think we can judge just how interesting an addition to tactics such a thing is until we see more about it in its context and in the overall flow of the game.
Orkz is the fight'e'est and da best.
This especially as someone very frustrated and angered by how the cover mechanics in DoW2 made units act stupidly or do things you didn't want them to do. No, I don't want that hero to escape on 1 HP because you're running BACKWARDS to take cover. Just. Fucking. Shoot. Him.
Yeah, whilst at first glance it's a return to the DoW1 system, the fact that the new cover appears to be straight up invulnerability, takes time to capture, and has limited "power" (as opposed to being simply % damage mitigation, permanent and immediate when you're there) gives it a pretty different wrinkly on how it would work in actual gameplay.
I'm OK with positional cover remaining in CoH. The DoW series always did feel as if they were more free to go with straight up more "gamey" and experimental ideas.
You make some mighty good points, my only rebuke to thay is... the cover doesn't look like cover they went half way between a bunk and some sand bags. It just feels out of place to be honest. That's really gripe.
It also seems fairly easy with any units with mobility to negate that cover. We'll have to wait and see.
Orks are merely fungus waiting to be crushed under my boot!
I can see how that would make things unbalanced in favour of Space Marines.
But man the detail. The fire jets on top of the imperial knight? The overheated missiles leaving a fire pool? Those are the kinds of details that just suck me in. YES PLEASE!
Not even thirty seconds in
"The Eldar however are unbalanced"
had me smile
Those circles with force shields look very Eldar to me.
Orks with ramshackle barricades built out of wreckage. Maybe metal box or bunkers for the Spess Marines.
I mean, they'd all function the same, providing cover from ranged weapons once you took them, but visually they'd be distinct.
I'd like that, just for diversity. Need to have me some mean looking fortifications in the game.
Speaking of METAL BAWKSES, I wonder whatever happened to the Rhino they made. I mean since after THQ imploded.
We need that chart from the old DoW II threads.
Oo\ Ironsizide
git.dunkt.skrub.
also, solaria just became my favorite character in warhammer 40k.
she drives a mech. and it has overheat mechanics just like in mechwarrior. :tell_me_more:
Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
I don't know if it's just like MechWarrior.
I mean, when your mech overheats, it's bad news generally resulting in shutdown or ammo cooking off.
When the Knight overheats, the missiles start leaving pools of fire on the ground when they hit.
but my love of all things mechwarrior will outlast the heat death of the universe.
i know there's differences, but her mech has an overheat mechanic and I'm ok with that.
Steam - NotoriusBEN | Uplay - notoriusben | Xbox,Windows Live - ThatBEN
- Davian Thule? : Unknown
- We get to use Titans
- Landraiders: In the game
- Diomedes / Tarkus? : Unknown
- Different variants of Imperial Knight (personal guess is that you'll choose between dual gattling cannons and melee)
- Army Painter in
- Librarians present
yey
Which isn't my jam. I wish them the best of luck, but also wish it was more similar to DoW2.
Is Last Stand at least coming back? I hope so.
I'm sure the campaign will have a mix of missions in between small squad ops and huge armies and Last Stand will be coming eventually. In the meantime, I am hyped for Titans and can only hope this game forces GW to bring back Epic :P
referring to knights.
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/08/15/dawn-of-war-iii-eldar-warhammer-40k-preview
http://www.pcgamer.com/dawn-of-war-3-hands-on-evaluating-the-emperors-finest-one-unit-at-a-time/
Lots to take in. One thing I did see mentioned is that suppression might be returning, which is nice to know.
EDIT: Haha, I like that the heavy bolter drop pod is spewing invective against its enemies.