I maintain that Symmetra's design needs a rework and while doing it they need to decide if she's a builder or a support and commit to that decision.
Keep her as is, reclassify her as Defense, and add a new more heal-focused Support?
Her kit is EXTREMELY boring. I've gone over this a lot, but once your turrets are on cooldown you don't have much to do and it's super dull.
Yes, it is super fun burning down bad players with her primary, but good players are not going to be running into your nest/gun that often and in many cases have the aim to put you down well before you can do shit.
I maintain that Symmetra's design needs a rework and while doing it they need to decide if she's a builder or a support and commit to that decision.
Keep her as is, reclassify her as Defense, and add a new more heal-focused Support?
Her kit is EXTREMELY boring. I've gone over this a lot, but once your turrets are on cooldown you don't have much to do and it's super dull.
Yes, it is super fun burning down bad players with her primary, but good players are not going to be running into your nest/gun that often and in many cases have the aim to put you down well before you can do shit.
Yeah, this is what I found with her. You set your turrets and then you stand around cause most players aren't gonna run into range for you, they are gonna kill you from afar and playing aggressively will get you murdered alot. Depending on how the game was going I often had nothing to do. Unless we were getting overrun I was basically useless except for throwing down a teleporter.
I'm trying to think of someone who DOESN'T just straight up kill your ass if you aren't near turrets (and even that isn't a guarantee of anything unless you got a bunch of them to assist). Reaper always has the option to bail or flat-out reset your primary, Agent 76 can burst you real quick, Mei has plenty of outs but she'll freeze your ass anyways, McCree is probably fucked if he can't stun you but that's not hard to land, and god you do not have a prayer against Tracer. Like, don't get me wrong, she's a good hero but "good" doesn't mean "fun" and her kit leaves her largely bored, tossing out orbs and praying someone gets waylaid by entering her murderzones.
I think the big thing is that her main role is 100% passive, and that's awful design. Lucio and Zenyetta have passive healing but need to consider positioning and who gets the healing: they don't just stare at someone and IF NO SHIELD PRESS E and that's it. It's a problematic skill in competitive and in pubs people will spend an entire match telling you to switch if you try playing Symmetra as the only support.
I'm trying to think of someone who DOESN'T just straight up kill your ass if you aren't near turrets (and even that isn't a guarantee of anything unless you got a bunch of them to assist). Reaper always has the option to bail or flat-out reset your primary, Agent 76 can burst you real quick, Mei has plenty of outs but she'll freeze your ass anyways, McCree is probably fucked if he can't stun you but that's not hard to land, and god you do not have a prayer against Tracer. Like, don't get me wrong, she's a good hero but "good" doesn't mean "fun" and her kit leaves her largely bored, tossing out orbs and praying someone gets waylaid by entering her murderzones.
I think the big thing is that her main role is 100% passive, and that's awful design. Lucio and Zenyetta have passive healing but need to consider positioning and who gets the healing: they don't just stare at someone and IF NO SHIELD PRESS E and that's it. It's a problematic skill in competitive and in pubs people will spend an entire match telling you to switch if you try playing Symmetra as the only support.
I liked what I played with her, but on a team that's winning it feels like you would have won no matter what you picked and aside from the ult I felt like I got carried to good end round stats. I think they need to do something with her turrets. Like give her an immediate bank of six to place with no cooldown before the cooldown starts. Then maybe lower the cooldown or something since throughout the match you're going to be moving them around a ton. They don't even necessarily have to make them stronger or give them more health but I think that would go a long way towards cutting down that dead time between actions. Maybe they can stand to increase the range of her ghostbuster proton stream thing. But there's not a lot to do with her right now it seems with her current kit in the vein of making her more "fun" without just busting her down and redoing her like they did for Bastion and Torb
The thing is her shields change a lot of matchups and prevent some one-shots from happening (not sure how much these cutoffs are changed with the nerf from 50 to 25, but it matters). Not to mention that teleporters are a HUGE deal because a lot of your respawn time is actually walking back to the frontlines.
The problem is that, like you said, you don't FEEL like you make much of an impact because so much of what you bring to the party is set-and-forget.
+1
BeezelThere was no agreement little morsel..Registered Userregular
The thing is her shields change a lot of matchups and prevent some one-shots from happening (not sure how much these cutoffs are changed with the nerf from 50 to 25, but it matters). Not to mention that teleporters are a HUGE deal because a lot of your respawn time is actually walking back to the frontlines.
The problem is that, like you said, you don't FEEL like you make much of an impact because so much of what you bring to the party is set-and-forget.
A question though: How disruptive do you think it would be to give her a straight up unlimited teleporter like in TF2. Since the game is all about strategic counterpicking would they have to introduce a stealth based hero a la spy to counter her by wrecking back line teleporters? Then give her something else as an ult. Like some autofire turrets that orbit her or something. I'm just pulling ideas out of my ass here, I have a hard time believing Blizzard intended any of their heroes to come off as boring or ineffective though.
An unlimited teleporter would be broken as fuck. You'd have to give it a cooldown between teleports (like TF2) or have it blow up after use so she has to constantly be plopping down new ones (which seems boring as hell). Her teleporter is fine: it's the rest of her kit that doesn't gel.
Her secondary orb is kinda wonky too. I'd like to be able to actually hit something with it and not have to gamble on someone crossing its path fifteen seconds later.
I definitely had the impression during the beta that Symmetra would become instantly more fun to play if her gun felt like it had any weight to it whatsoever. It honestly took me a while to figure out that her primary mode of fire was even dealing any damage.
Winston wasn't quite what I was hoping he would be (not still saying he's bad, just that he likely plays differently than I want), but Lucio is even better than I was expecting. His character design is stellar, and he's just so damn fun while helping out your whole team.
He's like a Mei that's boosting your team instead of being a nightmare to the other team.
0
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Gameplay-wise, I think Symmetra has a very solid kit.
It's just so boring. That's why I think it needs a rework.
I don't really agree that she has a solid kit. Her E and teleporter are the only good things about it. Her mini-sentries only work against unaware enemies and opposing teams who don't instantly counterpick with Winston/Pharah/Junkrat/Reinhardt. Her left-click is great but most intelligent opponents will learn to keep her at range like she's a certain frozen potato, and her right click is the equivalent of Donkey Kong spamming barrels at you as you climb a scaffold; the barrels are never really a threat, they just make your life more tiresome.
My thing with Winston is that I don't seem to have figured out his weapon. I'm a big tanky guy with a multiple hit weapon in your face. I can get up into close quarters with a couple dps classes, drop the shield to isolate us, but still can't manage to kill them. Now, you say, well you ran up to dps! But this situation is what I thought Winston was for. Apparently not and I still have to figure him out. I have however had success with monkey leaping to ledges taking out widowmakers and hanzos.
The landing damage from his leap is an important part of his time to kill. Unless it's an unarmored squishy not receiving any healing, you won't kill them quickly.
Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
There is literally no questioning that is useful so indeed her kit is solid.
Weather its fun or not, you could put up that arguement. But nearly all levels of play she has shown massive success.
If you feel like you are "missing" with right click too much, you are doing it wrong. It is area denial and it makes people pay in closed areas (which surprise, the game has TONS of). Smart use of turrets can secure kills or at least close off areas for flankers. You can do well to protect say a bastion or torb turret with those from people who could sneak up on them.
+1
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
My thing with Winston is that I don't seem to have figured out his weapon. I'm a big tanky guy with a multiple hit weapon in your face. I can get up into close quarters with a couple dps classes, drop the shield to isolate us, but still can't manage to kill them. Now, you say, well you ran up to dps! But this situation is what I thought Winston was for. Apparently not and I still have to figure him out. I have however had success with monkey leaping to ledges taking out widowmakers and hanzos.
It's not just that his damage is slow, it's frustratingly slow. I took a Widowmaker by surprise, and it took so long to zap her that she had plenty of time to stop firing, figure out where the damage was coming from, turn and find me, unload an entire magazine at my face, start reloading, and then have a Mercy fly up there to heal her. Once Mercy starting healing, I was shit out of luck because Mercy's heal beam hugely outpaces the DPS of Winston's arc cannon.
Any other character and Widowmakers would've been super-dead, but with Winston, I got to jump away and hope I didn't get shot in the back by Widowmaker and killed before I hit the ground. Not a ton of fun.
0
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
There is literally no questioning that is useful so indeed her kit is solid.
Weather its fun or not, you could put up that arguement. But nearly all levels of play she has shown massive success.
At high levels of play she is only picked for her teleporter on 1st point of A/D or Hybrid A/D. This should tell you everything about how useful her kit is.
There is literally no questioning that is useful so indeed her kit is solid.
Weather its fun or not, you could put up that arguement. But nearly all levels of play she has shown massive success.
If you feel like you are "missing" with right click too much, you are doing it wrong. It is area denial and it makes people pay in closed areas (which surprise, the game has TONS of). Smart use of turrets can secure kills or at least close off areas for flankers. You can do well to protect say a bastion or torb turret with those from people who could sneak up on them.
Tracer isn't very fond of a 6 turret supreme sundae, yeah.
0
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
they should rebalance symmetra around punching people with her robot arm ffs
My thing with Winston is that I don't seem to have figured out his weapon. I'm a big tanky guy with a multiple hit weapon in your face. I can get up into close quarters with a couple dps classes, drop the shield to isolate us, but still can't manage to kill them. Now, you say, well you ran up to dps! But this situation is what I thought Winston was for. Apparently not and I still have to figure him out. I have however had success with monkey leaping to ledges taking out widowmakers and hanzos.
It's not just that his damage is slow, it's frustratingly slow. I took a Widowmaker by surprise, and it took so long to zap her that she had plenty of time to stop firing, figure out where the damage was coming from, turn and find me, unload an entire magazine at my face, start reloading, and then have a Mercy fly up there to heal her. Once Mercy starting healing, I was shit out of luck because Mercy's heal beam hugely outpaces the DPS of Winston's arc cannon.
Any other character and Widowmakers would've been super-dead, but with Winston, I got to jump away and hope I didn't get shot in the back by Widowmaker and killed before I hit the ground. Not a ton of fun.
That's how I feel also. I would be good with some scaling based upon number of enemies or tesla is hitting and how close you are. Right now it's not working for me.
0
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Tracer isn't very fond of a 6 turret supreme sundae, yeah.
Yup, but again, kill rooms like this are a one-trick pony.
Tracer then a) tells her team there's a kill room that they can either avoid or have one of the counter-classes destroy, and b) either switches to a counter-class herself or just avoids that route, depending on the availability of secondary flanking routes.
Meanwhile Symmetra has a maximum of 3 new turrets to place if she wants to 'rotate' the way an emplaced Bastion or Torbjorn does, which significantly lessens the power of her next kill-zone, if she does choose to rotate.
Tracer isn't very fond of a 6 turret supreme sundae, yeah.
Yup, but again, kill rooms like this are a one-trick pony.
Tracer then a) tells her team there's a kill room that they can either avoid or have one of the counter-classes destroy, and b) either switches to a counter-class herself or just avoids that route, depending on the availability of secondary flanking routes.
Meanwhile Symmetra has a maximum of 3 new turrets to place if she wants to 'rotate' the way an emplaced Bastion or Torbjorn does, which significantly lessens the power of her next kill-zone, if she does choose to rotate.
You can re-place turrets that are still alive, you dont have to wait for them to die. So if you want to start immediately moving your whole turret trap you can.
Personally at the beginning of the match I spread them out so I can more quickly gain charge to get my tele down. I like figuring out new places to put them that people don't anticipate. After tele is down I might group them together more.
I find sym super fun to play, and I like that she's different.
+5
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
+1
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
I maintain that Symmetra's design needs a rework and while doing it they need to decide if she's a builder or a support and commit to that decision.
Keep her as is, reclassify her as Defense, and add a new more heal-focused Support?
Her kit is EXTREMELY boring. I've gone over this a lot, but once your turrets are on cooldown you don't have much to do and it's super dull.
Yes, it is super fun burning down bad players with her primary, but good players are not going to be running into your nest/gun that often and in many cases have the aim to put you down well before you can do shit.
And again, I'll say I think there is a lot wrong with what you're saying.
The sentry turrets get destroyed too quickly for them to just be set and forget. You're constantly having to shift them around and keep them replaced. And you have to do it smartly so that they are effective. This takes an active awareness of which vectors the enemy is using to approach.
Smart players will stay out of her range? On point defense? That's the entire reason that defense is her strength. You HAVE to get on the point so you'll have to get in her range. This is one of the reasons Mei is so strong on defense. People have to come in range of your primary to capture the point.
Her alt fire is still one of the most unique in the game as it is one of the only piercing projectiles. And yes, Reinhardt moves slow enough with his barrier up that you can fire it straight at him and either he and the folks behind him get out of the way or they eat a significant chunk if they don't.
I maintain that Symmetra's design needs a rework and while doing it they need to decide if she's a builder or a support and commit to that decision.
Keep her as is, reclassify her as Defense, and add a new more heal-focused Support?
Her kit is EXTREMELY boring. I've gone over this a lot, but once your turrets are on cooldown you don't have much to do and it's super dull.
Yes, it is super fun burning down bad players with her primary, but good players are not going to be running into your nest/gun that often and in many cases have the aim to put you down well before you can do shit.
Yeah, this is what I found with her. You set your turrets and then you stand around cause most players aren't gonna run into range for you, they are gonna kill you from afar and playing aggressively will get you murdered alot. Depending on how the game was going I often had nothing to do. Unless we were getting overrun I was basically useless except for throwing down a teleporter.
your not useless. Alt fire on your gun goes through shields...that makes you very valuable from a defensive standpoint. I got more kills just standing on the point, holding down the alt fire button and shooting blindly down the attack lanes along with occasionally running up and putting a few turrets up high in good spots then running back and continuing the alt-fire.
I do agree that her primary fire should be a heal of some kind cause its kinda useless as a weapon unless they add a mei-like slow to its effect.
My thing with Winston is that I don't seem to have figured out his weapon. I'm a big tanky guy with a multiple hit weapon in your face. I can get up into close quarters with a couple dps classes, drop the shield to isolate us, but still can't manage to kill them. Now, you say, well you ran up to dps! But this situation is what I thought Winston was for. Apparently not and I still have to figure him out. I have however had success with monkey leaping to ledges taking out widowmakers and hanzos.
It's not just that his damage is slow, it's frustratingly slow. I took a Widowmaker by surprise, and it took so long to zap her that she had plenty of time to stop firing, figure out where the damage was coming from, turn and find me, unload an entire magazine at my face, start reloading, and then have a Mercy fly up there to heal her. Once Mercy starting healing, I was shit out of luck because Mercy's heal beam hugely outpaces the DPS of Winston's arc cannon.
Any other character and Widowmakers would've been super-dead, but with Winston, I got to jump away and hope I didn't get shot in the back by Widowmaker and killed before I hit the ground. Not a ton of fun.
On the other hand you just kept their widow maker from sniping your teammates while you harassed her, and you also drew their healer away from other teammates. I hope your team took advantage!
Tracer isn't very fond of a 6 turret supreme sundae, yeah.
Yup, but again, kill rooms like this are a one-trick pony.
Tracer then a) tells her team there's a kill room that they can either avoid or have one of the counter-classes destroy, and b) either switches to a counter-class herself or just avoids that route, depending on the availability of secondary flanking routes.
Meanwhile Symmetra has a maximum of 3 new turrets to place if she wants to 'rotate' the way an emplaced Bastion or Torbjorn does, which significantly lessens the power of her next kill-zone, if she does choose to rotate.
If it stops someone from flanking you, it worked. Of course it doesn't work forever, it shouldn't
+2
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
I just wish the pros hadn't abused the original 50 HP shields from Sym. The new 25 HP ones just feel anemic.
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Keep her as is, reclassify her as Defense, and add a new more heal-focused Support?
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They could tweak her so that a % of turret damage(or her dmg) heals nearby allies.
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Or just give her a dispenser. But she would need nerfs in other areas in any event.
"...only mights and maybes."
but is still support for some reason
Yes, it is super fun burning down bad players with her primary, but good players are not going to be running into your nest/gun that often and in many cases have the aim to put you down well before you can do shit.
Yeah, this is what I found with her. You set your turrets and then you stand around cause most players aren't gonna run into range for you, they are gonna kill you from afar and playing aggressively will get you murdered alot. Depending on how the game was going I often had nothing to do. Unless we were getting overrun I was basically useless except for throwing down a teleporter.
I think the big thing is that her main role is 100% passive, and that's awful design. Lucio and Zenyetta have passive healing but need to consider positioning and who gets the healing: they don't just stare at someone and IF NO SHIELD PRESS E and that's it. It's a problematic skill in competitive and in pubs people will spend an entire match telling you to switch if you try playing Symmetra as the only support.
PSN: Wstfgl | GamerTag: An Evil Plan | Battle.net: FallenIdle#1970
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I liked what I played with her, but on a team that's winning it feels like you would have won no matter what you picked and aside from the ult I felt like I got carried to good end round stats. I think they need to do something with her turrets. Like give her an immediate bank of six to place with no cooldown before the cooldown starts. Then maybe lower the cooldown or something since throughout the match you're going to be moving them around a ton. They don't even necessarily have to make them stronger or give them more health but I think that would go a long way towards cutting down that dead time between actions. Maybe they can stand to increase the range of her ghostbuster proton stream thing. But there's not a lot to do with her right now it seems with her current kit in the vein of making her more "fun" without just busting her down and redoing her like they did for Bastion and Torb
"...only mights and maybes."
The problem is that, like you said, you don't FEEL like you make much of an impact because so much of what you bring to the party is set-and-forget.
A question though: How disruptive do you think it would be to give her a straight up unlimited teleporter like in TF2. Since the game is all about strategic counterpicking would they have to introduce a stealth based hero a la spy to counter her by wrecking back line teleporters? Then give her something else as an ult. Like some autofire turrets that orbit her or something. I'm just pulling ideas out of my ass here, I have a hard time believing Blizzard intended any of their heroes to come off as boring or ineffective though.
"...only mights and maybes."
It's just so boring. That's why I think it needs a rework.
Like being able teleport to the front line is only good on defense?
Winston wasn't quite what I was hoping he would be (not still saying he's bad, just that he likely plays differently than I want), but Lucio is even better than I was expecting. His character design is stellar, and he's just so damn fun while helping out your whole team.
He's like a Mei that's boosting your team instead of being a nightmare to the other team.
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Weather its fun or not, you could put up that arguement. But nearly all levels of play she has shown massive success.
If you feel like you are "missing" with right click too much, you are doing it wrong. It is area denial and it makes people pay in closed areas (which surprise, the game has TONS of). Smart use of turrets can secure kills or at least close off areas for flankers. You can do well to protect say a bastion or torb turret with those from people who could sneak up on them.
It's not just that his damage is slow, it's frustratingly slow. I took a Widowmaker by surprise, and it took so long to zap her that she had plenty of time to stop firing, figure out where the damage was coming from, turn and find me, unload an entire magazine at my face, start reloading, and then have a Mercy fly up there to heal her. Once Mercy starting healing, I was shit out of luck because Mercy's heal beam hugely outpaces the DPS of Winston's arc cannon.
Any other character and Widowmakers would've been super-dead, but with Winston, I got to jump away and hope I didn't get shot in the back by Widowmaker and killed before I hit the ground. Not a ton of fun.
Tracer isn't very fond of a 6 turret supreme sundae, yeah.
That's how I feel also. I would be good with some scaling based upon number of enemies or tesla is hitting and how close you are. Right now it's not working for me.
Tracer then a) tells her team there's a kill room that they can either avoid or have one of the counter-classes destroy, and b) either switches to a counter-class herself or just avoids that route, depending on the availability of secondary flanking routes.
Meanwhile Symmetra has a maximum of 3 new turrets to place if she wants to 'rotate' the way an emplaced Bastion or Torbjorn does, which significantly lessens the power of her next kill-zone, if she does choose to rotate.
You can re-place turrets that are still alive, you dont have to wait for them to die. So if you want to start immediately moving your whole turret trap you can.
Personally at the beginning of the match I spread them out so I can more quickly gain charge to get my tele down. I like figuring out new places to put them that people don't anticipate. After tele is down I might group them together more.
I find sym super fun to play, and I like that she's different.
And again, I'll say I think there is a lot wrong with what you're saying.
The sentry turrets get destroyed too quickly for them to just be set and forget. You're constantly having to shift them around and keep them replaced. And you have to do it smartly so that they are effective. This takes an active awareness of which vectors the enemy is using to approach.
Smart players will stay out of her range? On point defense? That's the entire reason that defense is her strength. You HAVE to get on the point so you'll have to get in her range. This is one of the reasons Mei is so strong on defense. People have to come in range of your primary to capture the point.
Her alt fire is still one of the most unique in the game as it is one of the only piercing projectiles. And yes, Reinhardt moves slow enough with his barrier up that you can fire it straight at him and either he and the folks behind him get out of the way or they eat a significant chunk if they don't.
your not useless. Alt fire on your gun goes through shields...that makes you very valuable from a defensive standpoint. I got more kills just standing on the point, holding down the alt fire button and shooting blindly down the attack lanes along with occasionally running up and putting a few turrets up high in good spots then running back and continuing the alt-fire.
I do agree that her primary fire should be a heal of some kind cause its kinda useless as a weapon unless they add a mei-like slow to its effect.
On the other hand you just kept their widow maker from sniping your teammates while you harassed her, and you also drew their healer away from other teammates. I hope your team took advantage!
If it stops someone from flanking you, it worked. Of course it doesn't work forever, it shouldn't
It sounds that way, but for some characters it's more than 10% HP.
Tracer with Symmetra shield and Thorbjörn armor feels... Somewhat different