Destiny is fast-paced with medium ttks. These elements make it unique from other shooters
Aim-assist and aiming physics are what defines Bungie shooters. They also are what makes Destiny able to be fast, vertical, and precies at the same time.
Bungie has made active, fast play impossible on some guns.
Bloom is bad
Bungie should make all primaries usable in all scenarios (to fit with their namesake), and make each individual class of weapons have advantages in each scenario, rather than simply being unusable in others.
'Theoretical weapon-balancing which would be much better accomplished by a professional, but exists in this thread merely for speculative purposes'
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
You can shoot axions bolts, they just have teeny tiny hitboxes
I've literally only ever seen an axiom bolt be shot in a youtube video proving that you can indeed shoot axiom bolts, whereas I have had trip mines, and other stick grenades are much easily shot. but... we're veering away from the subject at hand.
The magnetism of the sticky grenades is pretty much on par with other weapons and their general forgiveness imo.
That said, how do sticky grenades "reward bad play"? What exactly constitutes "bad play?"
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
You can shoot axions bolts, they just have teeny tiny hitboxes
I've literally only ever seen an axiom bolt be shot in a youtube video proving that you can indeed shoot axiom bolts, whereas I have had trip mines, and other stick grenades are much easily shot. but... we're veering away from the subject at hand.
The magnetism of the sticky grenades is pretty much on par with other weapons and their general forgiveness imo.
That said, how do sticky grenades "reward bad play"? What exactly constitutes "bad play?"
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
So I guess shoulder charges/tiger knee shouldn't be OHK's either then by this logic.
tastydonuts on
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
0
Custom SpecialI know I am, I'm sure I am,I'm Sounders 'til I die!Registered Userregular
You can shoot axions bolts, they just have teeny tiny hitboxes
I've literally only ever seen an axiom bolt be shot in a youtube video proving that you can indeed shoot axiom bolts, whereas I have had trip mines, and other stick grenades are much easily shot. but... we're veering away from the subject at hand.
The magnetism of the sticky grenades is pretty much on par with other weapons and their general forgiveness imo.
That said, how do sticky grenades "reward bad play"? What exactly constitutes "bad play?"
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
So I guess shoulder charges/tiger knee shouldn't be OHK's either then by this logic.
The thing with shoulder charge is that it takes time and anticipation.
If someone starts shooting you in the back, you can't turn around and charge them. But you can spin and panic nade and trade via space magic.
You can shoot axions bolts, they just have teeny tiny hitboxes
I've literally only ever seen an axiom bolt be shot in a youtube video proving that you can indeed shoot axiom bolts, whereas I have had trip mines, and other stick grenades are much easily shot. but... we're veering away from the subject at hand.
The magnetism of the sticky grenades is pretty much on par with other weapons and their general forgiveness imo.
That said, how do sticky grenades "reward bad play"? What exactly constitutes "bad play?"
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
So I guess shoulder charges/tiger knee shouldn't be OHK's either then by this logic.
The thing with shoulder charge is that it takes time and anticipation.
If someone starts shooting you in the back, you can't turn around and charge them. But you can spin and panic nade and trade via space magic.
If someone starts shooting you in the back, and you allow them enough time to turn around and force a trade in response, that's entirely your fault. Especially in this game with such limited mobility options.
Forcing a draw is a valid means of ending an encounter if escape isn't possible in a situation where you're at a disadvantage.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
0
Apothe0sisHave you ever questioned the nature of your reality?Registered Userregular
You can shoot axions bolts, they just have teeny tiny hitboxes
I've literally only ever seen an axiom bolt be shot in a youtube video proving that you can indeed shoot axiom bolts, whereas I have had trip mines, and other stick grenades are much easily shot. but... we're veering away from the subject at hand.
The magnetism of the sticky grenades is pretty much on par with other weapons and their general forgiveness imo.
That said, how do sticky grenades "reward bad play"? What exactly constitutes "bad play?"
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
So I guess shoulder charges/tiger knee shouldn't be OHK's either then by this logic.
No?
That requires an approach that can and should be anticipated. Shoulder charge is defeated by better positioning or preventing an approach. It succeeds via an unanticipated approach.
So you are saying the risk of landing a sticky grenade is exactly the same as getting a shoulder charge kill? Also that it leaves you in exactly the same risk level after the kill from crossfire?
Because I kinda think a ranged skill is pretty different risk wise from a melee skill even if titans can go rocketing around at high speeds.
Bungie should make all primaries usable in all scenarios (to fit with their namesake), and make each individual class of weapons have advantages in each scenario, rather than simply being unusable in others.
I dunno if that's really possible. Like, on paper, you might be giving a type of gun only a small edge over another at a certain engagement range, but small edges are sorta what a PvP meta like Destiny's is built on. If the type of gun they're using is just slightly better at a certain range than the one you're using, then you basically never want to fight them at that range.
0
Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
So you are saying the risk of landing a sticky grenade is exactly the same as getting a shoulder charge kill? Also that it leaves you in exactly the same risk level after the kill from crossfire?
Because I kinda think a ranged skill is pretty different risk wise from a melee skill even if titans can go rocketing around at high speeds.
I'm saying both are abilities where a person feels "wronged" because of the base misconception that using the ability requires less "skill" than other means of killing/isn't playing the "right" way, and therefore should be nerfed. No items. Final destination. Fox Only!
While there are calls for nerfs that are warranted (and sometimes horribly implemented), such as shotgun perk combinations that allow shotguns to ignore the kill range niche they're supposed to belong to, sniper thorn, etc... this isn't really one of them.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
0
jefe414"My Other Drill Hole is a Teleporter"Mechagodzilla is Best GodzillaRegistered Userregular
Destiny is fast-paced with medium ttks. These elements make it unique from other shooters
Aim-assist and aiming physics are what defines Bungie shooters. They also are what makes Destiny able to be fast, vertical, and precies at the same time.
Bungie has made active, fast play impossible on some guns.
Bloom is bad
Bungie should make all primaries usable in all scenarios (to fit with their namesake), and make each individual class of weapons have advantages in each scenario, rather than simply being unusable in others.
'Theoretical weapon-balancing which would be much better accomplished by a professional, but exists in this thread merely for speculative purposes'
That article was interesting. Thanks for passing it along! Ultimately I fear it was tuned to the notion of the ultra-hardcore, as it seemed like some of his problems was that awesome cool stuff was no longer possible for streamers/montages. But his overall points are solid - the game doesn't necessarily allow a lot of movement based gunplay, and movement is more relegated to abilities than shooty.
I don't know how much I necessarily care too much. But that's because I'm not at that point in my play. I don't have a high sensitivity, I can't immediately stop on a headshot during the middle of a blink. Outside of snipers remaining what they are, each balance pass has brought some joy and some frustration, but I generally find a way to remain competent.
My fear is that any attempt to balance solely by what the most elite players see winds up having significant problems for the lower tiers.
At some point tonight I will get on to farm strange coins. Are Coe runs still the best way?
I assume the one with matchmaking works fine?
I could probably rep boost some strides as well.
Universal Remote or bust.
Mostly just huntin' monsters.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
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mosssnackYeah right, man, Bishop should go!Good idea!Registered Userregular
Trials: Pantheon
As a non sniper, I actually like this map for trials. The sniping lanes are obvious and easy to avoid. The good snipers will catch you anywhere, so don't worry about them.
The average snipers will hard scope the obvious lanes. Get around 'em and punish punish punish.
Be mindful of the Universal Remote. I'd imagine there will be a lot more of that this weekend with Xur selling it.
I haven't played with Universal Remote in a long, long time. Like, since Vanilla Destiny. I think I remember it being somewhat of a novelty but also somewhat effective.
The primary I've been playing with on my Titan is a fully-leveled Monte Carlo; I'm already in the mid-high RoF AR "mood" so I figured why not? Turns out I was thinking about it wrong before I started using it. It's not necessary to roll with a */Str build; you can roll with Int/Disc and just get so many free punching. Daddy like.
I just want the remote to pair with no back up plans.
I agree. But I guess it's more like... you use punches or secondary shotgun (preferably full auto and just empty it) to activate Force Barrier, then you switch to Universal Remote and go nuts? That might be a little slow. I'll have to look into it. But that's play that rewards a skilled weapons-switcher.
But yeah. Univ. Remote should activate NBP. That'd be ideal.
So you are saying the risk of landing a sticky grenade is exactly the same as getting a shoulder charge kill? Also that it leaves you in exactly the same risk level after the kill from crossfire?
Because I kinda think a ranged skill is pretty different risk wise from a melee skill even if titans can go rocketing around at high speeds.
I'm saying both are abilities where a person feels "wronged" because of the base misconception that using the ability requires less "skill" than other means of killing/isn't playing the "right" way, and therefore should be nerfed. No items. Final destination. Fox Only!
While there are calls for nerfs that are warranted (and sometimes horribly implemented), such as shotgun perk combinations that allow shotguns to ignore the kill range niche they're supposed to belong to, sniper thorn, etc... this isn't really one of them.
Yeah, I was just articulating the argument, but personally I'm ambivalent about stickies and shoulder charges. Apotheosis is right, in that shoulder charges are generally mitigated through proper positioning and anticipation, which is why they are usually only effective in the chaos of 6 v 6. I think stickies are a bit "cheaper" than SC, in that good players know how to throw them without exposing themselves too much. But you lose out on the ability to prime targets effectively from cover, which is enough of a disadvantage where they shouldn't be nerfed.
(Well, I think I'd be okay with a very slight nerf to the "magnetism" of stickies, but can't do much more than that without completely fucking over Sunsingers.)
Sticky grenades are a bad mechanic from a gameplay perspective. I am hoping they get tuned down. Either no longer ohk or need to charge to do so or have a longer charge time or all of the above.
They already have a built in balance. If you miss the stick, they do practically nothing. Tiny explosion radius + very little damage. Reducing them from a one hit kill would make sticky grenades completely useless in PvP.
This is late, but what are you even talking about. The idea that there a guaranteed damage spike that cannot be avoided once it sticks is "useless in PVP" is nonsense. There are loads of grenades that CAN be avoided and don't one hit kill.
That said, not only that they reward bad play as well.
Stickies are fine. Grenades should be able to kill, not inconvenience. When I see an Axion Bolt I book the hell out of dodge. In a game with tons of OHKO moves like Shoulder Charge, Blink Strike, Wombo Combo, numerous supers, and everyone's favorite- ridiculous snipers... sticky grenades are not an issue.
In the words of MLG dudebros: git gud
I don't understand what the argument is here, axion bolts "inconvenience" rather than kill? A sticky that didn't kill work work in the opposite way to an axion, one work have to carefully consider joining a firefight instead of charging away.
And you can't git gud out of it.
I like my grenades to actually do something. Axion Bolt works as an area denial tool, but doesn't deal lethal damage. Lighting Grenades are bonkers but you have to be careful with placement, so they are also about area denial. almost every grenade in Destiny does something other than simply kill the enemy.
The tracking on a sticky can be a bit much but you still have to actually throw it at the enemy. Stickies aren't ruining the game, I only rarely see them in Crucible. I can count on one hand how many times I died to them in the last IB. I would much rather see snipers get looked at way before they ruin the only lethal grenades. Destiny is more of an arcade shooter and the abilities should feel fun and powerful. It's satisfying to stick someone on the face, or shotgun them, snipe them, Shoulder Charge, etc. It's annoying when effectively used against you, yeah. But I don't think Stickies really need a nerf. Even if you tone down the tracking at close ranges, it's still gonna be as annoying to fight against when someone is using them effectively. Being mad because it has a low skill ceiling isn't a very good complaint.
Fusion/Flux grenade take the most skill to use IMO, even taking into consideration the small amount of tracking it gives you. Yeah, you can just run at people and stick them and get a terrible K/D and not contribute much at all... or you can use them smartly to quickly kill close-range opponents. Just like you can mindlessly Shoulder Charge or Shotgun rush, it may work sometimes but it's a risk/reward scenario. It's a pretty good hard counter to shotgun rushers (and a good compliment, too). Basically if you are close enough to me to get stuck it was your fault, not the grenade's.
Abilities should feel like they actually do something, not feel worthless. The only good grenade for PvP Sunsingers currently is Fusion, the other two are pretty worthless right now post-Viking Funeral nerf. Making Fusions any less powerful would basically make grenades worthless for that class. Same goes for Hammerbro, as well.
Regarding Shoulder Charge being 'different' because it requires set-up... is a pretty moot point if you have ever played with Booker. Dude can do a tight turn and Tiger Knee a fresh Sunsinger into nothing in no time. There's plenty of low-skill ceiling OHKO's. Wombo combo is pretty simple and effective way to murder someone in seconds. Blink Strike, while nerfed, still absolutely wrecks people.
Basically, I don't think nerfs should come down because something is personally annoying for you to fight against. Snipers are the one thing the community agrees needs to be addressed, everything else is pretty subjective to our own experiences. I, for one, cannot stand the Rez Snipe mechanic but, rather than demand a solution I simply
I do! I've been taking solo runs at it this week in the hopes of getting an Imago Loop. My schedule is late, though so I won't be on until 10PM-10:30PM CST. If you still need someone to go through it and see me on, shoot me an invite. (ID is Strangerfork).
Edit: teh typos
lakhesis on
PSN: strangerfork
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Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited August 2016
If we are discussing grenades, Stormcallers are in dire need of a single decent PvP grenade.
They should keep the unique Storm grenade for PvE or whatever, even if its underwhelming as fuck, but I think changing Pulse Grenades to Skip Grenades or Flux Grenades, would be a decent fix.
*see table in link*
Almost all sniper rifles spawn in with 6 shots. However, if you can raise a weapons inventory stat to either 95 or 100, you’ll spawn in with additional starting ammo (even more if you use the old “Double Down” perk, but since that’s no longer a thing, let’s just ignore it).
At 95 inventory stat you will receive 9 rounds on spawn.
At 100 you will receive 12 rounds on spawn (double the normal amount!).
....
Looking back to the chart above, any sniper without at least 35 inventory stat + skip rounds cannot reach 12 rounds on spawn. Additionally, any sniper without at least 50 base inventory stat cannot start with 12 rounds without using Y1 special ammo boots. In my opinion, this makes some “off-the-meta” snipers much more appealing... Defiance of Yasmin is unique as it has a base inventory stat of 70 (highest in class), which means a chest piece with increased special ammo is all that is required to reach 12 shots on spawn.
Maybe I should actually save a Defiance to use as a PvP sniper. I do like the scope...
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
I do! I've been taking solo runs at it this week in the hopes of getting an Imago Loop. My schedule is late, though so I won't be on until 10PM-10:30PM CST. If you still need someone to go through it and see me on, shoot me an invite. (ID is Strangerfork).
Edit: teh typos
I'm in for Nightfall later as well. Wouldn't even mind running it a few times, since I haven't completed NF on my Titan and Warlock! ID: MusingPlatypus, and I play EST 8-11pm.
Just joined up with the PA clan, so I'm looking forward to shooting some mans with ya'all!
If we are discussing grenades, Stormcallers are in dire need of a single decent PvP grenade.
They should keep the unique Storm grenade for PvE or whatever, even if its underwhelming as fuck, but I think changing Pulse Grenades to Skip Grenades or Flux Grenades, would be a decent fix.
Yeah, Stormcaller grenades could definitely use a small boost (maybe to Arc grenades, but not nearly to their old OP level), but their crappy nades are balanced out by their super ridiculous melee snipe.
I do! I've been taking solo runs at it this week in the hopes of getting an Imago Loop. My schedule is late, though so I won't be on until 10PM-10:30PM CST. If you still need someone to go through it and see me on, shoot me an invite. (ID is Strangerfork).
Edit: teh typos
I'm in for Nightfall later as well. Wouldn't even mind running it a few times, since I haven't completed NF on my Titan and Warlock! ID: MusingPlatypus, and I play EST 8-11pm.
Just joined up with the PA clan, so I'm looking forward to shooting some mans with ya'all!
If we are discussing grenades, Stormcallers are in dire need of a single decent PvP grenade.
They should keep the unique Storm grenade for PvE or whatever, even if its underwhelming as fuck, but I think changing Pulse Grenades to Skip Grenades or Flux Grenades, would be a decent fix.
Yeah, Stormcaller grenades could definitely use a small boost (maybe to Arc grenades, but not nearly to their old OP level), but their crappy nades are balanced out by their super ridiculous melee snipe.
Their shitty grenades are balanced by the fact that I never use them anyway because Transcendence is OP.
If we are discussing grenades, Stormcallers are in dire need of a single decent PvP grenade.
Arcbolt could really use some love. The perk that makes the grenade arc for more damage should definitely get a buff. I like Storm Grenade but it doesn't feel like it hits hard enough. The few times I enjoyed using it, I tossed it near an exploding box and nabbed a OHKO which felt awesome.
Other ability requests:
-Buff Throwing Knife precision dmg. A headshot with a knife deals 130, I feel 150 makes a bit more sense
-Introduce an Exotic for Gunslingers where upon landing a precision kill, for the next ten seconds Headshot Throwing Knives are lethal.
-Another Exotic for Sunsingers that gives them pre-nerf Viking Funeral.
-Another Exotic for Subreakers giving them pre-nerf Hammers.
-Smokes should stick to enemies and follow them, it's pretty lame how you can nail someone in the face with it only for them to keep on trucking like nothing happened.
-Change contextual melees. Throwing a Knife or a Smoke should always be a tap, but to manually stab it should be holding the button down for a bit longer. Nothing sucks like trying to stab someone only to whiff a knife past them in vain, or vice versa.
-Give us more than one stinking Stormcaller Exotic. Same goes for Sunbreakers.
-Change Feedback to last more than 4 seconds. It hits hard but is entirely too situational.
Entirely unrelated but:
-BUFF THE MASTER PERK ON THE NO LAND BEYOND SO GETTING A PRECISION KILL ALLOWS FOR ONE BODY SHOT OHKO. Would not stack, so even if you hit a precision hit with The Master proc'd you couldn't just run through a team with it. Also, fucking buff the ammo reserves. Universal Remote has ridiculous ammo compared to NLB.
Maybe I'm just a bit scrubby, but I melee people a LOT in pvp. I tend to get beaten on straight up medium distance no surprise shootouts, so I much prefer engaging at closer distance. I find one, maaaaybe 2 pulses with a grasp and a melee kills just about anyone. I tend to turn corners with a shottgun cued up as well. I feel like I catch people all the time and surprise them with just how far the stormcaller melee hits.
I mean, yeah, get gud, and I'm working on it, but in the meantime, I like not being a total burden to my teams.
0
Sirialisof the Halite Throne.Registered Userregular
edited August 2016
I think the crucial part that makes Arc Bolt lackluster is that the activation time is so soooo goddamn slow.
You know, like Firebolts (which nobody uses anymore) after the nerf.
*see table in link*
Almost all sniper rifles spawn in with 6 shots. However, if you can raise a weapons inventory stat to either 95 or 100, you’ll spawn in with additional starting ammo (even more if you use the old “Double Down” perk, but since that’s no longer a thing, let’s just ignore it).
At 95 inventory stat you will receive 9 rounds on spawn.
At 100 you will receive 12 rounds on spawn (double the normal amount!).
....
Looking back to the chart above, any sniper without at least 35 inventory stat + skip rounds cannot reach 12 rounds on spawn. Additionally, any sniper without at least 50 base inventory stat cannot start with 12 rounds without using Y1 special ammo boots. In my opinion, this makes some “off-the-meta” snipers much more appealing... Defiance of Yasmin is unique as it has a base inventory stat of 70 (highest in class), which means a chest piece with increased special ammo is all that is required to reach 12 shots on spawn.
Maybe I should actually save a Defiance to use as a PvP sniper. I do like the scope...
I really like Defiance for PvP. It's just so versatile, higher RoF, stability and great dmg on precision hits. I swap between Weylorans, Longbow, and Defiance. With Weylorans I spawn with an absurd amount of ammo but it's one of the lower impact snipers. I suppose this is why NLB is limited to 12 shots at all times since that's the max for snipers. Still, it seems crazy to me that Universal Remote has so much ammo but NLB doesn't.
I don't think anyone who wants stickies changed us saying they are OP. It's just they aren't fun. There's no counter play. If someone wants to suicide stick you there's a very good chance they will pull that off no matter how good you are.
Yes you'll kill them too but that's not a fun engagement. Fun abilities aren't just for the person using them but for the person being used on. If it doesn't change both sides gameplay in a positive way it shouldn't be in the game.
I don't think anyone who wants stickies changed us saying they are OP. It's just they aren't fun. There's no counter play. If someone wants to suicide stick you there's a very good chance they will pull that off no matter how good you are.
Yes you'll kill them too but that's not a fun engagement. Fun abilities aren't just for the person using them but for the person being used on. If it doesn't change both sides gameplay in a positive way it shouldn't be in the game.
And there's 3 of them.
It's the go-to grenade if you actually want to kill with that ability. It's why Shoulder Charge and Wombo are popular at all; it's easy to use but difficult to master. The counter-play to not getting stuck is... don't be in that range. Someone with Blink Strike, shotty or fusion rifle can just as easily put you down without retaliation in that range.
And you can totally tank a sticky through a few different methods. Super activations should reliably cancel out sticky damage. Self res/Flame Shield Warlocks and Force Barrier Titans always beat a sticky.
Again, you are prioritizing your fun over someone else's. Someone who is getting wrecked by a dude on a 20-killstreak has little options than to pray for a super. The sticky can be the great equaliser in that situation, where suddenly you do shut down that guy with 3000+ points on his team. Whenever I hear someone complaining about stickies it just smacks of someone salty they lost to such a basic tactic.
sticky range is Mid range and in so its nearly impossible to avoid that range. I mean hear what you want but it's the least fun ability type in the game.
Your defense of it seems to be "your just mad it killed you" which isn't right. I'm just bored it killed me. The existence of those nades do not change anyone's gameplay other than adding an audible sigh every few matches.
Edit: Except maybe in trials because double sucky nade is a great orb attack or defense move and in 3on3 you can keep track of who has what abilities up so there is counter play
sticky range is Mid range and in so its nearly impossible to avoid that range. I mean hear what you want but it's the least fun ability type in the game.
Your defense of it seems to be "your just mad it killed you" which isn't right. I'm just bored it killed me. The existence of those nades do not change anyone's gameplay other than adding an audible sigh every few matches.
Edit: Except maybe in trials because double sucky nade is a great orb attack or defense move and in 3on3 you can keep track of who has what abilities up so there is counter play
"I'm bored" is hardly a rational basis to call for a nerf. Though, sadly it has worked in other games. el oh el.
“I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
Posts
A detailed look at gun-play in Destiny over the past two years (reddit)
TL;DR from the link:
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
Well, the argument goes that stickey grenades represent an easy trade for players who are overly aggressive, giving them a way to OHKO when poorly positioned or lacking in actual gun skill. You usually have to expose yourself out of cover to make them work, which normally would get you punished harshly against good players (which is why you don't see autorifle play in sweats and tournaments), but now you can sticky trade with someone who ostensibly had better position and gun skill than you, and this can be really annoying.
So I guess shoulder charges/tiger knee shouldn't be OHK's either then by this logic.
The thing with shoulder charge is that it takes time and anticipation.
If someone starts shooting you in the back, you can't turn around and charge them. But you can spin and panic nade and trade via space magic.
If someone starts shooting you in the back, and you allow them enough time to turn around and force a trade in response, that's entirely your fault. Especially in this game with such limited mobility options.
Forcing a draw is a valid means of ending an encounter if escape isn't possible in a situation where you're at a disadvantage.
No?
That requires an approach that can and should be anticipated. Shoulder charge is defeated by better positioning or preventing an approach. It succeeds via an unanticipated approach.
So you are saying the risk of landing a sticky grenade is exactly the same as getting a shoulder charge kill? Also that it leaves you in exactly the same risk level after the kill from crossfire?
Because I kinda think a ranged skill is pretty different risk wise from a melee skill even if titans can go rocketing around at high speeds.
I'm seeing the helmet of Corvo Attano from Dishonored.
This is not a bad thing.
I'm saying both are abilities where a person feels "wronged" because of the base misconception that using the ability requires less "skill" than other means of killing/isn't playing the "right" way, and therefore should be nerfed. No items. Final destination. Fox Only!
While there are calls for nerfs that are warranted (and sometimes horribly implemented), such as shotgun perk combinations that allow shotguns to ignore the kill range niche they're supposed to belong to, sniper thorn, etc... this isn't really one of them.
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That article was interesting. Thanks for passing it along! Ultimately I fear it was tuned to the notion of the ultra-hardcore, as it seemed like some of his problems was that awesome cool stuff was no longer possible for streamers/montages. But his overall points are solid - the game doesn't necessarily allow a lot of movement based gunplay, and movement is more relegated to abilities than shooty.
I don't know how much I necessarily care too much. But that's because I'm not at that point in my play. I don't have a high sensitivity, I can't immediately stop on a headshot during the middle of a blink. Outside of snipers remaining what they are, each balance pass has brought some joy and some frustration, but I generally find a way to remain competent.
My fear is that any attempt to balance solely by what the most elite players see winds up having significant problems for the lower tiers.
I assume the one with matchmaking works fine?
I could probably rep boost some strides as well.
Universal Remote or bust.
XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
As a non sniper, I actually like this map for trials. The sniping lanes are obvious and easy to avoid. The good snipers will catch you anywhere, so don't worry about them.
The average snipers will hard scope the obvious lanes. Get around 'em and punish punish punish.
Be mindful of the Universal Remote. I'd imagine there will be a lot more of that this weekend with Xur selling it.
bnet: moss*1454
I think I'll pick one up this weekend.
Also dumping motes/materials on your factions. Every faction level up gets you 4 coins.
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I agree. But I guess it's more like... you use punches or secondary shotgun (preferably full auto and just empty it) to activate Force Barrier, then you switch to Universal Remote and go nuts? That might be a little slow. I'll have to look into it. But that's play that rewards a skilled weapons-switcher.
But yeah. Univ. Remote should activate NBP. That'd be ideal.
Especially if they got a sniper secondary and are good at it.
Going to give this a shot this weekend.
Yeah, I was just articulating the argument, but personally I'm ambivalent about stickies and shoulder charges. Apotheosis is right, in that shoulder charges are generally mitigated through proper positioning and anticipation, which is why they are usually only effective in the chaos of 6 v 6. I think stickies are a bit "cheaper" than SC, in that good players know how to throw them without exposing themselves too much. But you lose out on the ability to prime targets effectively from cover, which is enough of a disadvantage where they shouldn't be nerfed.
(Well, I think I'd be okay with a very slight nerf to the "magnetism" of stickies, but can't do much more than that without completely fucking over Sunsingers.)
Oh man, have you watched The Destiny Fun Police videos? Fimi is the king of this setup with suppressors, it's hilarious.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=UQQOplawzOw
Watching now. Thoroughly enjoyable.
I like my grenades to actually do something. Axion Bolt works as an area denial tool, but doesn't deal lethal damage. Lighting Grenades are bonkers but you have to be careful with placement, so they are also about area denial. almost every grenade in Destiny does something other than simply kill the enemy.
The tracking on a sticky can be a bit much but you still have to actually throw it at the enemy. Stickies aren't ruining the game, I only rarely see them in Crucible. I can count on one hand how many times I died to them in the last IB. I would much rather see snipers get looked at way before they ruin the only lethal grenades. Destiny is more of an arcade shooter and the abilities should feel fun and powerful. It's satisfying to stick someone on the face, or shotgun them, snipe them, Shoulder Charge, etc. It's annoying when effectively used against you, yeah. But I don't think Stickies really need a nerf. Even if you tone down the tracking at close ranges, it's still gonna be as annoying to fight against when someone is using them effectively. Being mad because it has a low skill ceiling isn't a very good complaint.
Fusion/Flux grenade take the most skill to use IMO, even taking into consideration the small amount of tracking it gives you. Yeah, you can just run at people and stick them and get a terrible K/D and not contribute much at all... or you can use them smartly to quickly kill close-range opponents. Just like you can mindlessly Shoulder Charge or Shotgun rush, it may work sometimes but it's a risk/reward scenario. It's a pretty good hard counter to shotgun rushers (and a good compliment, too). Basically if you are close enough to me to get stuck it was your fault, not the grenade's.
Abilities should feel like they actually do something, not feel worthless. The only good grenade for PvP Sunsingers currently is Fusion, the other two are pretty worthless right now post-Viking Funeral nerf. Making Fusions any less powerful would basically make grenades worthless for that class. Same goes for Hammerbro, as well.
Regarding Shoulder Charge being 'different' because it requires set-up... is a pretty moot point if you have ever played with Booker. Dude can do a tight turn and Tiger Knee a fresh Sunsinger into nothing in no time. There's plenty of low-skill ceiling OHKO's. Wombo combo is pretty simple and effective way to murder someone in seconds. Blink Strike, while nerfed, still absolutely wrecks people.
Basically, I don't think nerfs should come down because something is personally annoying for you to fight against. Snipers are the one thing the community agrees needs to be addressed, everything else is pretty subjective to our own experiences. I, for one, cannot stand the Rez Snipe mechanic but, rather than demand a solution I simply
Got gud?
I do! I've been taking solo runs at it this week in the hopes of getting an Imago Loop. My schedule is late, though so I won't be on until 10PM-10:30PM CST. If you still need someone to go through it and see me on, shoot me an invite. (ID is Strangerfork).
Edit: teh typos
They should keep the unique Storm grenade for PvE or whatever, even if its underwhelming as fuck, but I think changing Pulse Grenades to Skip Grenades or Flux Grenades, would be a decent fix.
A Complete Breakdown of Sniper Rifle Ammo (x-post with /r/CruciblePlaybook)
Highlights:
Maybe I should actually save a Defiance to use as a PvP sniper. I do like the scope...
(Destiny) Doot Doot, Shoot Brutes for New Boots, Woot Woot for Rad Suits and Phat Loots
I'm in for Nightfall later as well. Wouldn't even mind running it a few times, since I haven't completed NF on my Titan and Warlock! ID: MusingPlatypus, and I play EST 8-11pm.
Just joined up with the PA clan, so I'm looking forward to shooting some mans with ya'all!
Yeah, Stormcaller grenades could definitely use a small boost (maybe to Arc grenades, but not nearly to their old OP level), but their crappy nades are balanced out by their super ridiculous melee snipe.
Their shitty grenades are balanced by the fact that I never use them anyway because Transcendence is OP.
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Arcbolt could really use some love. The perk that makes the grenade arc for more damage should definitely get a buff. I like Storm Grenade but it doesn't feel like it hits hard enough. The few times I enjoyed using it, I tossed it near an exploding box and nabbed a OHKO which felt awesome.
Other ability requests:
-Buff Throwing Knife precision dmg. A headshot with a knife deals 130, I feel 150 makes a bit more sense
-Introduce an Exotic for Gunslingers where upon landing a precision kill, for the next ten seconds Headshot Throwing Knives are lethal.
-Another Exotic for Sunsingers that gives them pre-nerf Viking Funeral.
-Another Exotic for Subreakers giving them pre-nerf Hammers.
-Smokes should stick to enemies and follow them, it's pretty lame how you can nail someone in the face with it only for them to keep on trucking like nothing happened.
-Change contextual melees. Throwing a Knife or a Smoke should always be a tap, but to manually stab it should be holding the button down for a bit longer. Nothing sucks like trying to stab someone only to whiff a knife past them in vain, or vice versa.
-Give us more than one stinking Stormcaller Exotic. Same goes for Sunbreakers.
-Change Feedback to last more than 4 seconds. It hits hard but is entirely too situational.
Entirely unrelated but:
-BUFF THE MASTER PERK ON THE NO LAND BEYOND SO GETTING A PRECISION KILL ALLOWS FOR ONE BODY SHOT OHKO. Would not stack, so even if you hit a precision hit with The Master proc'd you couldn't just run through a team with it. Also, fucking buff the ammo reserves. Universal Remote has ridiculous ammo compared to NLB.
I mean, yeah, get gud, and I'm working on it, but in the meantime, I like not being a total burden to my teams.
You know, like Firebolts (which nobody uses anymore) after the nerf.
I really like Defiance for PvP. It's just so versatile, higher RoF, stability and great dmg on precision hits. I swap between Weylorans, Longbow, and Defiance. With Weylorans I spawn with an absurd amount of ammo but it's one of the lower impact snipers. I suppose this is why NLB is limited to 12 shots at all times since that's the max for snipers. Still, it seems crazy to me that Universal Remote has so much ammo but NLB doesn't.
Yes you'll kill them too but that's not a fun engagement. Fun abilities aren't just for the person using them but for the person being used on. If it doesn't change both sides gameplay in a positive way it shouldn't be in the game.
And there's 3 of them.
It's the go-to grenade if you actually want to kill with that ability. It's why Shoulder Charge and Wombo are popular at all; it's easy to use but difficult to master. The counter-play to not getting stuck is... don't be in that range. Someone with Blink Strike, shotty or fusion rifle can just as easily put you down without retaliation in that range.
And you can totally tank a sticky through a few different methods. Super activations should reliably cancel out sticky damage. Self res/Flame Shield Warlocks and Force Barrier Titans always beat a sticky.
Again, you are prioritizing your fun over someone else's. Someone who is getting wrecked by a dude on a 20-killstreak has little options than to pray for a super. The sticky can be the great equaliser in that situation, where suddenly you do shut down that guy with 3000+ points on his team. Whenever I hear someone complaining about stickies it just smacks of someone salty they lost to such a basic tactic.
Your defense of it seems to be "your just mad it killed you" which isn't right. I'm just bored it killed me. The existence of those nades do not change anyone's gameplay other than adding an audible sigh every few matches.
Edit: Except maybe in trials because double sucky nade is a great orb attack or defense move and in 3on3 you can keep track of who has what abilities up so there is counter play
"I'm bored" is hardly a rational basis to call for a nerf. Though, sadly it has worked in other games. el oh el.