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[WoW Theorycraft] Theorycrafting, Simming, and dummy testing, oh my!

3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseLabyrinths are awesome!Registered User regular
edited August 2016 in MMO Extravaganza
Here is a thread to crunch numbers, theorycraft, and sim to your heart's content without filling up the main WoW thread!

XBL: R3clipse
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Battle.net: Eclipse#1200
3clipse on
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Posts

  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Labyrinths are awesome!Registered User regular
    I have been perusing this wonderful theorycrafting thread by Effinhunter (of EJ fame):

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2030453-Legion-Theorycrafting-All-specs

    Interesting takeaways are that the best talent choice for BM is not at all intuitive (Dire Stable/Stomp/Bestial Fury/A Murder of Crows/Killer Cobra), especially because every setup after that for quite awhile is using Stampede. Seems that Killer Cobra pulls ahead if you use a talent setup designed for high focus regen. Also there's a weird Haste breakpoint at 2500-2700 where it becomes as valuable as mastery, and then quickly drops off, which is interesting. Best theory he has is a DB attack breakpoint.

    XBL: R3clipse
    Steam: BIRD BIRD KILL IT
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  • LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    So some resto shaman theory opinions:

    Echo of the elements or cloudburst totem?

  • EnigmedicEnigmedic Registered User regular
    From a pvp perspective: EoE seems to be better on small scale fights simply because it allows you to have riptide on a larger majority of people, and the extra healing stream totem is helpful because you may not be able to cast as much to make cloudburst worth it. Cloudburst is easily the better option on larger scale fights because it just affects more people, and can be combined with other cooldowns like ascendance. I imagine the same holds true with PvE stuff.

    3ds FC: 0645 - 7166 - 9801
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    So some resto shaman theory opinions:

    Echo of the elements or cloudburst totem?

    I've been seeing more and more use of cloudburst. I think it's one of those things a bit like Holy Prism for paladins, where it's more rotational than a "cooldown".

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    3clipse wrote: »
    I have been perusing this wonderful theorycrafting thread by Effinhunter (of EJ fame):

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2030453-Legion-Theorycrafting-All-specs

    Interesting takeaways are that the best talent choice for BM is not at all intuitive (Dire Stable/Stomp/Bestial Fury/A Murder of Crows/Killer Cobra), especially because every setup after that for quite awhile is using Stampede. Seems that Killer Cobra pulls ahead if you use a talent setup designed for high focus regen. Also there's a weird Haste breakpoint at 2500-2700 where it becomes as valuable as mastery, and then quickly drops off, which is interesting. Best theory he has is a DB attack breakpoint.

    Is there a reason you'd be BM at all at this point? Marksman is over 30k DPS ahead at the top end, and that difference is linear through all item levels.

    I think some of it probably MM being propped up by a ludicrously good 4pc bonus from tier 18, but it can't be just that.

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    While they might not be doing well at the moment in 7.0, I've been paying attention to Warcraftlogs from Death Jester's and their hunters are mostly BM and pulling big numbers. The recent stuff is from last month: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4D1YztnaTVKMBdJc#fight=10

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

  • bowenbowen ayyyyyyyy Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

    I haven't, is this something new in Legion?

    Warning: I am a programmer/sysop. IANAL/IANAD, seek actual advice from certified people in their respective fields if you are actually in need of it.
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    It's why I appreciate Sparty openly linking to his guilds logs. Thanks to that I've considered going Elemental Shaman, seeing as theirs is pulling in work(not the top but he never drops too low)

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

    I haven't, is this something new in Legion?

    When you use Divine shield it taunts everything within 15 yards for the duration.

    You know, Divine shield, that ability that everyone said was broken for a tank to have but "don't worry it's fine it drops aggro when it's active so it's niche" well NOT ANYMORE HAHAHAHA

    bowenArthilKeemossiSkeith
  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    Death Jesters aren't a part of the race so why not release the logs.

    Smrtnik
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Angry wrote: »
    Death Jesters aren't a part of the race so why not release the logs.

    some guilds are super weird about their logs. feel like saying to some of them "yo guys, the raid has been out for 3 months, nobody is gonna steal your sekrit stratergees, you're not Method, settle the fuck down"

  • bowenbowen ayyyyyyyy Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

    I haven't, is this something new in Legion?

    When you use Divine shield it taunts everything within 15 yards for the duration.

    You know, Divine shield, that ability that everyone said was broken for a tank to have but "don't worry it's fine it drops aggro when it's active so it's niche" well NOT ANYMORE HAHAHAHA

    oh my god

    are they trying to make paladins amazing aoe tanks again

    plz blizzard

    Warning: I am a programmer/sysop. IANAL/IANAD, seek actual advice from certified people in their respective fields if you are actually in need of it.
  • LD50LD50 Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    LD50 wrote: »
    So some resto shaman theory opinions:

    Echo of the elements or cloudburst totem?

    I've been seeing more and more use of cloudburst. I think it's one of those things a bit like Holy Prism for paladins, where it's more rotational than a "cooldown".

    Yeah, that probably has something to do with it getting buffed from 20% to 30% of all healing. Do you know if they ever fixed things so the totem collects healing from all the effects it failed to collect healing from in it's older version?

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

    I haven't, is this something new in Legion?

    When you use Divine shield it taunts everything within 15 yards for the duration.

    You know, Divine shield, that ability that everyone said was broken for a tank to have but "don't worry it's fine it drops aggro when it's active so it's niche" well NOT ANYMORE HAHAHAHA

    oh my god

    are they trying to make paladins amazing aoe tanks again

    plz blizzard

    It's not even something just for AOE! We have two paladin tanks in our guild, I'm one of them, and we're progressing Mythic Mannoroth at the moment.

    It's unbelievable how useful it is to be able to say to the healers "okay I'm just not going to take any damage for 8 seconds, do whatever else you gotta do."

    On a whim, we can just skip tank swaps, negate all dangerous mechanics, and generally just bossmode the fuck OUT.

    Oh and Divine Shield doesn't reduce your offensive ability in any way during the duration anymore, so there's not even that drawback. The talent literally makes it a 100% shield wall on a 5min cooldown.

    bowencrimsoncoyoteNobody
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    LD50 wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    LD50 wrote: »
    So some resto shaman theory opinions:

    Echo of the elements or cloudburst totem?

    I've been seeing more and more use of cloudburst. I think it's one of those things a bit like Holy Prism for paladins, where it's more rotational than a "cooldown".

    Yeah, that probably has something to do with it getting buffed from 20% to 30% of all healing. Do you know if they ever fixed things so the totem collects healing from all the effects it failed to collect healing from in it's older version?

    I'm pretty sure they went through and fixed those piecemeal, but I don't actually play a shaman so couldn't tell you for sure.

  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Labyrinths are awesome!Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    3clipse wrote: »
    I have been perusing this wonderful theorycrafting thread by Effinhunter (of EJ fame):

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2030453-Legion-Theorycrafting-All-specs

    Interesting takeaways are that the best talent choice for BM is not at all intuitive (Dire Stable/Stomp/Bestial Fury/A Murder of Crows/Killer Cobra), especially because every setup after that for quite awhile is using Stampede. Seems that Killer Cobra pulls ahead if you use a talent setup designed for high focus regen. Also there's a weird Haste breakpoint at 2500-2700 where it becomes as valuable as mastery, and then quickly drops off, which is interesting. Best theory he has is a DB attack breakpoint.

    Is there a reason you'd be BM at all at this point? Marksman is over 30k DPS ahead at the top end, and that difference is linear through all item levels.

    I think some of it probably MM being propped up by a ludicrously good 4pc bonus from tier 18, but it can't be just that.

    No T18 since I just started playing again, and MM is so boring it actually makes me want to die. People call BM boring but you spend 10 seconds at a time just waiting with MM.

    If we hit a point where we're failing fights because of low damage I'll switch for the good of the raid, but the nerfs to HFC have made it so that damage is far less relevant.

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  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    I think the 4pc is pretty nutso for MM. We have two MM Hunters, on Mannoroth one of them had the 4pc and one of them did not. The gap between them was about 20k DPS. After the raid we went to go kill Heroic Socrethar quickly (which was hilarious, we killed him just after ghosts came out) to get him the four piece because of how big it was.

  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Labyrinths are awesome!Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    I think the 4pc is pretty nutso for MM. We have two MM Hunters, on Mannoroth one of them had the 4pc and one of them did not. The gap between them was about 20k DPS. After the raid we went to go kill Heroic Socrethar quickly (which was hilarious, we killed him just after ghosts came out) to get him the four piece because of how big it was.

    Yeah, it's absolutely ridiculous. If I had the 4pc I would probably just suck it up and raid MM because you gain, as you say, a ridiculous amount of damage. Without it the gap is much smaller.

    XBL: R3clipse
    Steam: BIRD BIRD KILL IT
    Battle.net: Eclipse#1200
  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    Death Jesters aren't a part of the race so why not release the logs.

    some guilds are super weird about their logs. feel like saying to some of them "yo guys, the raid has been out for 3 months, nobody is gonna steal your sekrit stratergees, you're not Method, settle the fuck down"

    Pretty much, though Angry's comment is confusing seeing as they do openly show their logs.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    While they might not be doing well at the moment in 7.0, I've been paying attention to Warcraftlogs from Death Jester's and their hunters are mostly BM and pulling big numbers. The recent stuff is from last month: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4D1YztnaTVKMBdJc#fight=10

    Always weird when i run into someone referencing my guild out of game.

    steam_sig.png
  • AngryAngry Slang Pope Breakbeat MinisterRegistered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Angry wrote: »
    Death Jesters aren't a part of the race so why not release the logs.

    some guilds are super weird about their logs. feel like saying to some of them "yo guys, the raid has been out for 3 months, nobody is gonna steal your sekrit stratergees, you're not Method, settle the fuck down"

    Pretty much, though Angry's comment is confusing seeing as they do openly show their logs.

    The big guilds that do the beta raid testing are mostly guilds that go for the world first is the reason they don't release their logs.

  • bowenbowen ayyyyyyyy Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Hm, it's really hard to gather accurate statistics when most logs in the beta so far are private for some reason. I would assume some specs rely on their artifact more than others. I know that's the case for Balance and Retribution, for example.

    @bowen - paladin tank question - have you seen the ludicrousness that is the Final Stand talent?

    I haven't, is this something new in Legion?

    When you use Divine shield it taunts everything within 15 yards for the duration.

    You know, Divine shield, that ability that everyone said was broken for a tank to have but "don't worry it's fine it drops aggro when it's active so it's niche" well NOT ANYMORE HAHAHAHA

    oh my god

    are they trying to make paladins amazing aoe tanks again

    plz blizzard

    It's not even something just for AOE! We have two paladin tanks in our guild, I'm one of them, and we're progressing Mythic Mannoroth at the moment.

    It's unbelievable how useful it is to be able to say to the healers "okay I'm just not going to take any damage for 8 seconds, do whatever else you gotta do."

    On a whim, we can just skip tank swaps, negate all dangerous mechanics, and generally just bossmode the fuck OUT.

    Oh and Divine Shield doesn't reduce your offensive ability in any way during the duration anymore, so there's not even that drawback. The talent literally makes it a 100% shield wall on a 5min cooldown.

    there is absolutely no way this doesn't get nerfed at some point in the next 8 weeks

    Warning: I am a programmer/sysop. IANAL/IANAD, seek actual advice from certified people in their respective fields if you are actually in need of it.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited August 2016
    bowen wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    It's not even something just for AOE! We have two paladin tanks in our guild, I'm one of them, and we're progressing Mythic Mannoroth at the moment.

    It's unbelievable how useful it is to be able to say to the healers "okay I'm just not going to take any damage for 8 seconds, do whatever else you gotta do."

    On a whim, we can just skip tank swaps, negate all dangerous mechanics, and generally just bossmode the fuck OUT.

    Oh and Divine Shield doesn't reduce your offensive ability in any way during the duration anymore, so there's not even that drawback. The talent literally makes it a 100% shield wall on a 5min cooldown.

    there is absolutely no way this doesn't get nerfed at some point in the next 8 weeks

    It made it all the way through the entire alpha and beta. In fact, they already nerfed it. It used to reduce the cooldown of Divine Shield too, from 5min to 3min.

    Dhalphir on
    bowenArthil
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Do you know the crazy part? For most of the beta, the Paladin class feedback thread has considered Final Stand to be situational!

    Yeah, situational. In the sense that it is amazing in ALL situations.

    The other choices in the tier aren't bad - one of them adds 20% DR to Divine Steed and reduces the CD by half, and the other one reduces Light of the Protector (the self heal based on missing hp) to half its cooldown and allows you to use it on others. But being able to use bubble not only to cheese mechanics but also to just straight up stabilize a raid encounter is huge.

  • ArthilArthil Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    While they might not be doing well at the moment in 7.0, I've been paying attention to Warcraftlogs from Death Jester's and their hunters are mostly BM and pulling big numbers. The recent stuff is from last month: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4D1YztnaTVKMBdJc#fight=10

    Always weird when i run into someone referencing my guild out of game.

    Hah! I actually intend to level up an Alliance character on Stormrage and join Zeroes to Heroes for something to do on the side.

    PSN: Honishimo Steam UPlay: ArthilCwcuLUM.jpg
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    How is healing balance right now? Any classes which will be a must have, like paladins and discipline priests were for most of WoD?

  • Thor1590Thor1590 Registered User regular
    edited August 2016
    I just wanted to post here to say that I feel weird about our avatars.

    Also, will it be ok to bring a disc priest in an "actual" healer slot, or do they not do it well enough?

    Thor1590 on
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    Thor1590 wrote: »
    I just wanted to post here to say that I feel weird about our avatars.

    Also, will it be ok to bring a disc priest in an "actual" healer slot, or do they not do it well enough?

    Nah Disc doesn't really have the numbers to replace a "real" healer unless you've got stuff way on farm right now. They just don't have the numbers to do enough healing. You feel super weak whenever Penance is on CD, and Shadowmend costs too much mana to be used too often. You also aren't too great at raid healing because Plea and PWR are both expensive.

    They pretty firmly fit into that little niche of "we might be able to drop a healer on this, if everyone plays well". You can use a Disc whenever you'd be wary of dropping a healer, but feel like you overheal a little too much. The big problem I see is that niche being so small means that we're not going to see an awful lot of Disc artifacts being leveled, so even when that opportunity comes up you're not going to see them any way.

    Why level your disc artifact when you can level your Holy one and be more useful more often?

    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    We've decided we're going to basically underheal every fight next tier and bring a disc. We're going to be a full 30man team so the idea is to bring 6 healers including the disc.

  • bowenbowen ayyyyyyyy Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Do you know the crazy part? For most of the beta, the Paladin class feedback thread has considered Final Stand to be situational!

    Yeah, situational. In the sense that it is amazing in ALL situations.

    The other choices in the tier aren't bad - one of them adds 20% DR to Divine Steed and reduces the CD by half, and the other one reduces Light of the Protector (the self heal based on missing hp) to half its cooldown and allows you to use it on others. But being able to use bubble not only to cheese mechanics but also to just straight up stabilize a raid encounter is huge.

    All situations is still "situational" I suppose

    lol

    the others feel like solo + pvp talents more, tbh

    Warning: I am a programmer/sysop. IANAL/IANAD, seek actual advice from certified people in their respective fields if you are actually in need of it.
  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Labyrinths are awesome!Registered User regular
    Thor1590 wrote: »
    I just wanted to post here to say that I feel weird about our avatars.

    Also, will it be ok to bring a disc priest in an "actual" healer slot, or do they not do it well enough?

    I actually spent almost 30 seconds trying to remember when I wrote this post.

    XBL: R3clipse
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  • crimsoncoyotecrimsoncoyote Registered User regular
    Arthil wrote: »
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Arthil wrote: »
    While they might not be doing well at the moment in 7.0, I've been paying attention to Warcraftlogs from Death Jester's and their hunters are mostly BM and pulling big numbers. The recent stuff is from last month: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/4D1YztnaTVKMBdJc#fight=10

    Always weird when i run into someone referencing my guild out of game.

    Hah! I actually intend to level up an Alliance character on Stormrage and join Zeroes to Heroes for something to do on the side.

    It kinda wasn't great being on Horde on Stormrage (faction imbalance is real). Stories of Alliance/DJ were pretty legendary on that side actually.
    On the other hand, those were some of my best times in WoW.

    Anyway, more on-topic: I know Demon Hunters were brought up in the other thread, but I was wondering if there was some kind of resource for them somewhere. I plan on maining one as a tank, but outside of talent calculators and general info, there doesn't seem to be much. I'm looking for rotations, CD usage, that sort of thing... I welcome any DH theorycrafting :)

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Sunnier's Art of War Vengeance guide is a great starting point.

    http://sunniersartofwar.com/vengeance/

    crimsoncoyote
  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    So, is not directly related to numbers, but:

    As someone that just got a Holy Pala through Timewalking: Oh thank God. Having Divine Steed and....uh...nothing else was terrible. On raids you are still taking Rule of Law, but Palas and DKs were really slow moving compared to everybody else.

    Keemossi
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    It's quite a good change, especially for protection. We definitely needed some more mobility. Taking the Knights Templar talent that reduces the cool down and adds the damage reduction was nice and solved the problem, but having a damage reduction associated with your movement ability always felt awkward because whenever you use the ability chances are you were either wasting the damage reduction or the mobility.

    On top of that, the talent here in question for protection was complete garbage, retribution Aura and blessing of Salvation were both pointless talents, and the only reason you would take one of them is if you specifically wanted to keep blessing of protection rather than replacing it with spellwarding.

    This change solves 2 problems at the same time

  • Kai_SanKai_San Commonly known as Klineshrike! Registered User regular
    Oh my. They weren't kidding when they said "new tech". I saw this post while testing prot pally on beta and in like 5 mins I went to change talents and the new one is already there!

    steam_sig.png
    DhalphirTryCatcher
  • EvermournEvermourn Registered User regular
    I've finally gotten around to leveling a pally (currently 51), and trying to keep up with a druid or warrior tank in instances is a pita. This change sounds fantastic.

  • Corp.ShephardCorp.Shephard Registered User regular
    Retribution Aura's existence is just shocking to me.

    I just can't fathom how such a utterly useless talent made it through. I see that they tried to balance it by placing it on a niche (and pretty weak) talent tier but it is even outclassed there.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Retribution Aura's existence is just shocking to me.

    I just can't fathom how such a utterly useless talent made it through. I see that they tried to balance it by placing it on a niche (and pretty weak) talent tier but it is even outclassed there.

    It's only function was as a non-useless talent to take if you wanted to keep Blessing of Protection over Blessing of Spellwarding.

    If you wanted Protection, you had to take either Blessing of Salvation, which was literally completely useless, or Retribution Aura, which was only mostly useless. Conceivably Retribution Aura could deal, like, ten damage, one time, in a fight, which would make it more useful than Blessing of Salvation, so that's what you took if you wanted Blessing of Protection for something.

    Honestly, I don't see why it needed to only deal damage on non-tank classes. It might be nice to have the old Ret aura available as a talent. It'd hardly be broken. Especially now with the Salv talent deleted and replaced with the Cavalier talent for double charges on Divine Steed, it'd be super cool to have Blessing of Spellwarding, Cavalier, and Ret Aura all competing, if Ret aura did damage every time the tank was attacked.

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