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[Canadian Politics] No, You're Never Owning a Home

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  • DeciusDecius Registered User regular
    We just bought a condo in Abbotsford (it's low-rise and a bit older so our suite is spacious, building is well-taken-care-of with a solid board, so about as good as condo living gets) and are pretty sure we're getting in just in time. The foreign buyer's tax hasn't cooled down the "lower" (ha) end of the market at all. New Vancouver condos are going for over a million, forget single-family homes. Prices are skyrocketing in Langley (which was borderline reasonable when we moved out here a year and a half ago), crappy old single-family homes hover around 500k in Abbotsford, Chilliwack will be there soon, and apparently freakin' HOPE is now where people are buying homes as investments with the expectation that their value will skyrocket. For those of you unfamiliar with Lower Mainland BC, that's spreading out eastward from downtown Vancouver, and Hope is in the middle of nowhere.

    If we end up getting an influx of tech companies trying to avoid Trump's immigration policies, we'll be completely screwed on housing prices.

    You could always go live in Mission.....bwahahaha no god no don't do that.

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    My condo in Vancouver's property assesment went up by 36% this year. And the exact same unit as our recently sold for more than the assessed value!

    :so_raven:
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    Al_wat wrote: »
    Phisti wrote: »
    Military procurement, and general procurement through the fed is challenging and no one party is solely responsible for that mess. Our biggest issues is probably proximity to the US Military Industrial Complex and the close relations we have with the US Army wagging the dog a bit on can collaborate with their systems. F-35 mess is a probably the worst example of a procurement but everything from ship-building to sidearms has been a farce.

    Wanted to point people this way and post this little gem from the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/toronto-housing-bmo-td-1.4028032 - I know that home owners are counting on the equity built into the homes they own, but the info-graphic at the mid point of this article is insane, 225k/year family salary, saved 100k for a down payment and still 200k short of being able to buy the average detached home. TD has taken a bit of a shit-canning this week, but I think their financial analysis part is still decent.

    I haven't heard news from the Vancouver real-estate rodeo recently, have rules enacted provincially made any headway or have they just kicked the problem down the road?

    I haven't seen detailed analysis of the effect of the foreign buyers tax on Vancouver real estate but I have heard that it cooled the price increases somewhat. Although... I have also heard that it shifted things over to the Toronto area more, causing prices in the GTA to increase even more.

    The GTA is out of control. Totally out of control. The Ontario government really needs to address the issue.

    Foreign buyers tax hasn't brought prices down really (99% of houses in City of Vancouver proper are over 1 million still), but has slowed the market a bit for single family homes. Entry level condos are still going nuts because in most of Metro Vancouver that is all most people can afford. The tax also only applies in Metro Vancouver, so the Victoria market has seen some deflection of interest.

    Also, GTA and Seattle markets went nuts after foreign buyers tax brought in here, so make of that what you will.

    The foreign buyer tax also recently received some exemptions for primary residences for Permanent Residents and people with long-term work visas. This was done to help entice high-tech companies to relocate/set up satellite offices in response to the immigrant CF happening south of the border. This may result in some increased pressure, although since it is aimed at PR and long term visas it will make speculation more difficult.

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  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    My condo in Vancouver's property assesment went up by 36% this year. And the exact same unit as our recently sold for more than the assessed value!

    Less than a year after I purchased a condo in Vancouver, a unit in the same building sold for almost 200k more than what we paid for ours.

    As to the question of decentralization, some of the suburbs around Vancouver are setting up city plans. Brent Toderian, a former Vancouver city planner who got forced out due to internal politics has a fairly regular city planning column on the "On the Coast" local CBC afternoon show. Up until recently, a lot of the suburbs had little to no city plans or didn't follow them if they did have plans. With some of the increased regional transportation planning that is happening now and desires among the surrounding municipalities to become more than just bedroom communities you can start to see new city centres being built. Surrey is trying to establish a downtown and so is Richmond. Local walkable commercial centres are forming around the SkyTrain stops and a lot more thought is being put to public transit and establishing small commercial districts throughout the residential neighbourhoods as densification occurs.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Kelowna getting bad too, I'm in a dinky doublewide trailer and it's seen almost a 40 grand jump in 4 years ( and that's just on the tax assessment not appraisal)

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  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    Metro Vancouver (the regional district - in BC we have a level of government organization between municipality and province) has long had a plan for multiple city centres throughout the region. And we have that to some degree, but there is still always going to be a lot of commuting to the downtown core of City of Vancouver.

    :so_raven:
  • CaedwyrCaedwyr Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    Metro Vancouver (the regional district - in BC we have a level of government organization between municipality and province) has long had a plan for multiple city centres throughout the region. And we have that to some degree, but there is still always going to be a lot of commuting to the downtown core of City of Vancouver.

    This is true, but for a long time many of the suburb municipalities have had varying levels of following their plans and/or success in getting the developments they want to happen where they want. Recently, there seems to be a lot more success in forming neighbourhoods around the Sky Train stops. Also, adding the Evergreen line has really opened up a new part of the metro region to people who are not car drivers. The Canada line did something similar for Richmond (15 minutes to downtown Richmond compared to 45 minutes- 1 hour previously if taking public transit. It's faster than a car in a lot of situations.

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  • KhavallKhavall British ColumbiaRegistered User regular
    We bought a house in Port Coquitlam(outside of Vancouver) about 3 years ago, and while the value partially has increased because we did a shit-ton of rennovations(new furnace, water heater, completely tore our downstairs suite down to the frame and re-did it, ran some new electric, some new plumbing, new light fixtures, new paint, etc. etc), also it's basically doubled in value from what we paid for it.

  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Housing in Ucluelet and Tofino has reached a crisis recently too, its unlike anything we have seen here in our sleepy tourist season (mostly) driven villages. In the past, we told each other "Hey, if you need a place to rent, look around in the fall, winter, spring..." only this year, next to nothing was available. Local businesses are feeling the ceiling too, they can't pay the wages needed for someone to be able to afford to live here and they have shortages of workers as people who did rent here are given evictions so the places can be rented out to rich tourists. And it doesn't really seem like the pace at which BC Property Assessments is slowing down to match stagnating wages and fewer middle incomes, that's been putting pressure on people to move to Port Alberni or farther for years. It just keeps getting more expensive to live here for the poor and retired. We've never seen it quite this bad before, looks like people are going to be working homeless / illegal back woods camping this year in numbers we haven't quite experienced before. That's with a failing highway that is practically going to be a crawl this year with construction and predicted numbers of tourists to sky rocket with the Pacific Rim park being free this year.

    Not sure if this is a public link, but this definitely came up for discussion on our Facebook community corkboard recently: https://www.facebook.com/groups/247234305475659/permalink/594584904073929/?comment_id=600356173496802¬if_t=group_comment_follow¬if_id=1489594396470501

    The problems of Vancouver and Victoria real estate wealth disparity are rippling right across the province, to be felt essentially a days worth of travel away even :(

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    The Conservative Party of Canada has removed 1,351 names from its membership list after discovering they were purchased anonymously and inappropriately.

    It sounds like someone organized over a thousand fake party memberships using prepaid credit cards, and because they were an imbecile put up a flare by buying them through the same couple of IPs. O'Leary called out the shenanigans without naming anybody, which sure did get an elementary-school-playground reaction from some of his colleagues.

    Is there a flaming dumpster someplace that can enter that race at this point? Given the options I'm pretty comfortable with a flaming dumpster as Leader of the Official Opposition. I can adapt to that scenario.

  • hippofanthippofant Chu. Registered User regular
    Is 1351 a lot?

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    It's 1350 more than a party member traditionally purchases.

    Less snarkily - party membership numbers, in the formal card-carrying sense, are fairly low in Canada. 300,000 people voted in the campaign where Trudeau was elected party leader, and that involved significantly broadening who could participate. I'd be deeply astonished if card-carrying CPC membership was half that.

    (whee, all the post edits) And CBC corroborates that, figuring 150,000 members is the high estimate.

    Zibblsnrt on
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    When it comes to party members, there's a big discrepancy between Canadians and Americans. This is largely because in the US, you basically join a party by checking a box on a form, whereas in Canada you have to actually pay dues and affirm some sort of commitment.
    Basically, it goes back to the weird messed up idea in the states that pretty much everybody is just supposed to default to one of two parties. Whereas in Canada, people actually, you know, think about it for a second.

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  • hippofanthippofant Chu. Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    It's 1350 more than a party member traditionally purchases.

    Less snarkily - party membership numbers, in the formal card-carrying sense, are fairly low in Canada. 300,000 people voted in the campaign where Trudeau was elected party leader, and that involved significantly broadening who could participate. I'd be deeply astonished if card-carrying CPC membership was half that.

    (whee, all the post edits) And CBC corroborates that, figuring 150,000 members is the high estimate.

    That's... less than 1%. Which isn't nothing, but hardly, by itself, seems to be "widespread" or to cast any serious doubt on the leadership race itself.

    Gnome-Interruptus
  • Caulk Bite 6Caulk Bite 6 One of the multitude of Dans infesting this place Registered User regular
  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    edited March 18
    I'll be moving to Toronto in May, coming from Halifax. Hearing stories from coworkers in Toronto about trying to get a house is pretty terrifying. I'll definitely be in an apartment for a while. The facility where I'll be working is in Scarboroug, and I plan to use public transportation.

    The Toronto apartment and real estate market is mildly terrifying to me.


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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    Is 1350 enough to potentially sway the leadership race?

    If it was close, yes. There were roughly 100,000 party members in 2004, when Harper won the leadership. In that leadership race, the totals were 67,143 for Harper, 22,286 for Stronach, and 7,968 for Tony Clement.

    It's not a straight up vote count, though - it depends on where those members are. The actual determination is made using a points based proportional representation system (it is also a ranked ballot). Each riding has 100 points that are distributed based on the vote in that riding. Some ridings have a lot fewer Conservative members than others (consider a riding in rural Quebec versus Calgary West), so the distribution of memberships matters a lot. Going back to the 2004 numbers, even though Harper had triple the number of votes as Stronach did, the actual point totals were 17,296 Harper and 10,613 Stronach.

    This year's race is likely to be a lot closer than that, especially in vote counts, because O'Leary and Bernier (the front runners) are much closer in support than Harper and Stronach were. Neither is Western Canada based either. Since Conservative members are pretty thin on the ground in Quebec, Bernier could get a substantial bump if he swept that province, and it is unlikely that O'Leary will do well there (even though he is, himself, technically from Quebec).



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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Is 1350 enough to potentially sway the leadership race?

    In a fourteen-way race, 1350 voters in a pool of about a hundred thousand starts to mean things.

    (...also, are people seriously trying to minimize something like that as not an actual big deal?)

  • EntriechEntriech Registered User regular
    There's some small irony in the Cons steadfast adherence to FPTP for Canada, whilst running a much more complicated election system internally in the party.

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  • Operative21Operative21 Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote:
    I'll be moving to Toronto in May, coming from Halifax. Hearing stories from coworkers in Toronto about trying to get a house is pretty terrifying. I'll definitely be in an apartment for a while. The facility where I'll be working is in Scarboroug, and I plan to use public transportation.

    The Toronto apartment and real estate market is mildly terrifying to me.

    It's definitely not cheap to be sure. In terms of public transportation, if you're using the TTC and commuting between work and home at least 5 days a week you'll want to get a monthly metropass (they're around $146 currently) which you can purchase from terminals in most of the major TTC subway stations. If you're looking at an apartment, you can probably get a bachelor apartment at around $650-700 at the low range of things, but it'll be a dump. For a decent apartment that's well managed in a good location, you're probably looking anywhere from $1000 to $1500 or so for a bachelor apartment.

    Currently, I'm living in Willowdale in one of a series of apartments run by Schikedanz on Ruddington drive. Rent is around $1333.14 but the building's really well run and well maintained, and there's an great selection of services literally right behind my building (ie. 24 hour convenience store, an 8-9 grocery store, drug store, walk-in medical clinic, dental clinic, optical store, two bank branches, a harvey's, a barber, a veterinarian, a gas station, and even a sushi-place). It's also fairly quiet and low on crime outside the occasional bit of minor petty vandalism. Heck, if there was a hardware store, and a computer hardware store I'd literally never even need to step outside my neighbourhood. Anyway, not sure how a commute from here to Scarborough would be, but it's a good area if you're scouting out potential neighbourhoods to live in.

  • SwashbucklerXXSwashbucklerXX Swashbucklin' Canuck Registered User regular
    Depending on where you're working in Scarborough, there are some pretty reasonably-priced digs (for Toronto), apartments and townhomes, in the neighbourhood bounded by Lawrence and Sheppard (S to N) and the DVP and Victoria Park (W to E). This is a patch of North York right next to the Scarborough border. It's a nice, quiet neighbourhood, but you can catch buses east along Lawrence, Ellesmere, and Sheppard. We used to live in the Wycliffe Mews townhouses on Cassandra, and they're getting a bit up there in age but are managed well. There's also an apartment building with smaller suites associated with Wycliffe Mews, and a number of other apartment complexes in the area (includng some rather nices ones along Lawrence between the DVP and Vic Park).

    Scarborough rental housing can be risky. Some areas are just fine while others are kinda trashed. I definitely recommend against renting sight-unseen if at all possible. Feel free to PM me if you want any more info on the area or any suggestions on transit routes to wherever you're working. I only moved out a year and a half ago, so my info is relatively recent.

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  • KetBraKetBra Mixing Drinks and Changing Lives Registered User regular
    So Kenney won the PC leadership race in Alberta

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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    And apparently his platform was one of uniting the PCs and Wildrose under a single party. That'll be interesting to watch.

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  • Space PickleSpace Pickle Registered User regular
    Is 1350 enough to potentially sway the leadership race?

    If it was close, yes. There were roughly 100,000 party members in 2004, when Harper won the leadership. In that leadership race, the totals were 67,143 for Harper, 22,286 for Stronach, and 7,968 for Tony Clement.

    It's not a straight up vote count, though - it depends on where those members are. The actual determination is made using a points based proportional representation system (it is also a ranked ballot). Each riding has 100 points that are distributed based on the vote in that riding. Some ridings have a lot fewer Conservative members than others (consider a riding in rural Quebec versus Calgary West), so the distribution of memberships matters a lot. Going back to the 2004 numbers, even though Harper had triple the number of votes as Stronach did, the actual point totals were 17,296 Harper and 10,613 Stronach.

    This year's race is likely to be a lot closer than that, especially in vote counts, because O'Leary and Bernier (the front runners) are much closer in support than Harper and Stronach were. Neither is Western Canada based either. Since Conservative members are pretty thin on the ground in Quebec, Bernier could get a substantial bump if he swept that province, and it is unlikely that O'Leary will do well there (even though he is, himself, technically from Quebec).

    I remember that vote, Harper and Stronach made speeches while Clement just showed some kind of infomercial.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Aegis wrote: »
    And apparently his platform was one of uniting the PCs and Wildrose under a single party. That'll be interesting to watch.

    I worry about that one a little, given that one of those parties is going to be far more uncompromisingly doctrinaire than the other. If it happens, I hope that "uniting the PCs and Wildrose under a single party" doesn't become the same instance of "subsuming the PCs into the other party" that happened federally.

  • RichyRichy http://torchlightmedia.netRegistered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Aegis wrote: »
    And apparently his platform was one of uniting the PCs and Wildrose under a single party. That'll be interesting to watch.

    I worry about that one a little, given that one of those parties is going to be far more uncompromisingly doctrinaire than the other. If it happens, I hope that "uniting the PCs and Wildrose under a single party" doesn't become the same instance of "subsuming the PCs into the other party" that happened federally.

    I think it's pretty much a given, given Kenney's personal history as a Harper lackey, the campaign he ran, and the larger trend of moderate right-wing parties being taken over by right-wing fanatics.

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  • JeanJean Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    This housing discussion certainly makes me glad to live in the Ottawa-Gatineau area. You can buy houses in Gatineau that are a 15-20 minutes drive from downtown Ottawa for $250K. All other things being equal, you can save about $100K on your home by moving in the Québec side of the urban area.

    I'm glad I convinced my fiancée (she is franco-ontarian and has lived all her life in Ontario) to move to Québec. Electricity is insultingly expansive in Ontario; tution and childcare is much cheaper on the Québec side as well. It's not all bad in Ottawa tough, the roads are in a much better condition , the drivers are much smarter and the healthcare system is more functional.

    If you're a middle class familly, it frankly makes no economical sense to decide to live in Ontario IMHO.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    The OEB site lists 'peak' power costs as 18 cents per kwh.

    Still cheaper than Yellowknife! :P

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  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    In, "Wait ... what?" news, apparently Nova Scotia is getting a small commercial spaceport.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/t-minus-1-year-until-rocket-launch-site-construction-starts-in-nova-scotia-1.4023808

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  • RichyRichy http://torchlightmedia.netRegistered User regular
    So how do we feel about this case?
    India has been trying for years to extradite Malkit Sidhu and Surjit Badesha, both of Maple Ridge, B.C., to face trial.

    They are the mother and uncle of Sidhu, a B.C. woman whose body was dumped after her throat was slashed in Punjab. Her young husband, Sukhwinder (Mithu) Sidhu, was badly beaten and left for dead.

    She was allegedly targeted for secretly marrying the rickshaw driver, a man of much lower social status, instead of the older man her family had arranged for her to wed in Canada.

    Sidhu and Badesha were arrested in Canada in 2012, suspected of orchestrating the so-called "honour killing."

    [...]

    The ruling said the pair could be subject to violence, torture or neglect based on India's human rights record.

    Badesha's lawyer Michael Klein says the pair could be in danger if sent to India, and Canada is obliged to protect them.

    "Both of these people are elderly and both have health issues and that makes them more vulnerable in an Indian prison system, especially one which has been characterized as quite brutal," he told CBC News.

    I'm of the mindset that, if you don't want to be brutalized in a third-world prison, you shouldn't commit crimes in a third-world country with a brutal prison system. Especially a crime as heinous as "honour killing". Send them to India and let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

    I also don't like the precedent this sets. Canada should also not become a refuge for criminals seeking to escape severe punishment in the jurisdictions they committed horrendous crimes in, nor should we, as taxpayers, foot the bill to imprison every criminal that flees here from a country we feel is too brutal with its criminals. If there is a problem with the Indian prison system (and I have no doubt there is) it should have been considered before we signed an extradition treaty with them.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited March 19
    Richy wrote: »
    So how do we feel about this case?
    India has been trying for years to extradite Malkit Sidhu and Surjit Badesha, both of Maple Ridge, B.C., to face trial.

    They are the mother and uncle of Sidhu, a B.C. woman whose body was dumped after her throat was slashed in Punjab. Her young husband, Sukhwinder (Mithu) Sidhu, was badly beaten and left for dead.

    She was allegedly targeted for secretly marrying the rickshaw driver, a man of much lower social status, instead of the older man her family had arranged for her to wed in Canada.

    Sidhu and Badesha were arrested in Canada in 2012, suspected of orchestrating the so-called "honour killing."

    [...]

    The ruling said the pair could be subject to violence, torture or neglect based on India's human rights record.

    Badesha's lawyer Michael Klein says the pair could be in danger if sent to India, and Canada is obliged to protect them.

    "Both of these people are elderly and both have health issues and that makes them more vulnerable in an Indian prison system, especially one which has been characterized as quite brutal," he told CBC News.

    I'm of the mindset that, if you don't want to be brutalized in a third-world prison, you shouldn't commit crimes in a third-world country with a brutal prison system. Especially a crime as heinous as "honour killing". Send them to India and let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

    I also don't like the precedent this sets. Canada should also not become a refuge for criminals seeking to escape severe punishment in the jurisdictions they committed horrendous crimes in, nor should we, as taxpayers, foot the bill to imprison every criminal that flees here from a country we feel is too brutal with its criminals. If there is a problem with the Indian prison system (and I have no doubt there is) it should have been considered before we signed an extradition treaty with them.

    We decided, as a nation, that we wouldn't subject people to punishments in other nations if we consider the punishment cruel. If there court has sufficient evidence that if we extradite the couple would face torture or execution, then we don't extradite.

    I suppose it raises the question of what we should do in that regard. This can't be the first time something like this has happened - that Canadian residents commit a crime in a nation to which we refuse extradition. What do we normally do?

    And should the human rights record of the nation requesting extradition matter, Richy? Or are you of the mindset that if you commit a crime in another nation, the Canadian government shouldn't intervene on behalf of its citizens in any way?

    Nova_C on
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  • hippofanthippofant Chu. Registered User regular
    edited March 19
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Richy wrote: »
    So how do we feel about this case?
    India has been trying for years to extradite Malkit Sidhu and Surjit Badesha, both of Maple Ridge, B.C., to face trial.

    They are the mother and uncle of Sidhu, a B.C. woman whose body was dumped after her throat was slashed in Punjab. Her young husband, Sukhwinder (Mithu) Sidhu, was badly beaten and left for dead.

    She was allegedly targeted for secretly marrying the rickshaw driver, a man of much lower social status, instead of the older man her family had arranged for her to wed in Canada.

    Sidhu and Badesha were arrested in Canada in 2012, suspected of orchestrating the so-called "honour killing."

    [...]

    The ruling said the pair could be subject to violence, torture or neglect based on India's human rights record.

    Badesha's lawyer Michael Klein says the pair could be in danger if sent to India, and Canada is obliged to protect them.

    "Both of these people are elderly and both have health issues and that makes them more vulnerable in an Indian prison system, especially one which has been characterized as quite brutal," he told CBC News.

    I'm of the mindset that, if you don't want to be brutalized in a third-world prison, you shouldn't commit crimes in a third-world country with a brutal prison system. Especially a crime as heinous as "honour killing". Send them to India and let them suffer the consequences of their actions.

    I also don't like the precedent this sets. Canada should also not become a refuge for criminals seeking to escape severe punishment in the jurisdictions they committed horrendous crimes in, nor should we, as taxpayers, foot the bill to imprison every criminal that flees here from a country we feel is too brutal with its criminals. If there is a problem with the Indian prison system (and I have no doubt there is) it should have been considered before we signed an extradition treaty with them.

    We decided, as a nation, that we wouldn't subject people to punishments in other nations if we consider the punishment cruel. If there court has sufficient evidence that if we extradite the couple would face torture or execution, then we don't extradite.

    I suppose it raises the question of what we should do in that regard. This can't be the first time something like this has happened - that Canadian residents commit a crime in a nation to which we refuse extradition. What do we normally do?

    And should the human rights record of the nation requesting extradition matter, Richy? Or are you of the mindset that if you commit a crime in another nation, the Canadian government shouldn't intervene on behalf of its citizens in any way?

    So first, I have no sympathy for their age or health condition. They were that old/healthy when they committed the crime (or were going to be, and should have forseen it, given that it was MURDER, which isn't exactly a short-sentence crime). I think that's absolute bullshit, like old/dying people can just commit all the crimes they want and receive clemency for that... like people aren't already somewhat incentivized to go settling old scores as they near death.

    What I find especially problematic is that these people explicitly went to commit a crime in another nation. This isn't a case where they were in that country and committed the crime and came here to escape punishment, which would be bad in and of itself. They hired people to murder someone in India. They were never physically in India, but it's essentially the same - they extended their reach from Canada to India to commit a crime there.

    For us not to extradite in this situation would be an absolute travesty of justice, not just Canadian justice but also Indian justice. Can you imagine living in India and coming to understand that people from Canada can just hire hitmen here and murder anyone they want without qualms? Or any other country, so long as Canadians don't approve of your local justice system, this means that they can commit crimes in your country and escape justice?

    Extradite their asses. I mean, shit, really, this isn't one of those "rehabilitation" situations. We're not exactly hoping that they come out the other side of this and repent; this is purely a deterrent/public sentiment situation, so as far as I'm concerned, they should die in prison, one way or another.

    (I haven't exactly worked this out entirely, but I think the only situations in which I could really object to extradition would be situations in which the crime was incidental - i.e. a tourist unknowingly breaks a law - when what they did wouldn't be a crime here, or when the punishment would be grossly out of sync with what it'd be here - i.e. death penalty for minor crimes. I think non-extradition should be an exceptional case based on circumstances, not the norm based on whether we think another country's judicial system is as good as ours or not. Which... you know, I'm ethnically Chinese, so this is going out on a bit of a limb here.)

    Edit: To be clearer, I don't know enough of the details of the case to say that extradition is correct, but I don't believe that, based on what has been reported in this thread, there is sufficient reason to block their extradition.

    hippofant on
    InvectivusShadowhopeBouwsTShadowenRichy
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Well, after doing some reading on extradition in Canada, it seems our government is pretty happy to extradite without question, so you guys probably have nothing to worry about.

    Tube wrote: »
    No, I hate D&D more than the other subforums because it's more of a pain in my arse.
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    On further reading it seems France never extradites, and the US rarely does.

    So I guess if @hippofant is correct in his slipperly slope scenario, there's a lot of international murder conspiracies in France. Don't piss off French people.

    Tube wrote: »
    No, I hate D&D more than the other subforums because it's more of a pain in my arse.
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Wow, Hassan Diab (A Canadian citizen from Ottawa) was extradited to France in 2014 on evidence that was questionable at best.

    He is still in French custody and has never been charged.

    Tube wrote: »
    No, I hate D&D more than the other subforums because it's more of a pain in my arse.
  • hippofanthippofant Chu. Registered User regular
    edited March 19
    Nova_C wrote: »
    On further reading it seems France never extradites, and the US rarely does.

    So I guess if hippofant is correct in his slipperly slope scenario, there's a lot of international murder conspiracies in France. Don't piss off French people.

    :rotate: I guess we should just also not have laws against genocide, because it's not like countries without those laws are all rife with genocide. :rotate: International murder is rare, simply due to its circumstances; that doesn't make it more legal or desirable.

    Also, frankly, there are Canadians who have been in prison in Canada since 2014 on evidence that was questionable at best and have never been charged. We should probably just stop sending people to face trial in Canada until they clean up their judicial system.

    Please. Your cherry-picking line of "avoid all possible injustice at any cost" thinking would lead to us abolishing all judicial systems everywhere.

    hippofant on
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    edited March 19
    Well, it's a good thing I never said that, then.

    EDIT: Regarding Canadians in Canadian prison for over 2 years with 0 charges brought, am I supposed to be okay with that? I'm not okay with that. I think noting that I'm not okay with other countries doing that is consistent in my not okay with that stance.

    Nova_C on
    Tube wrote: »
    No, I hate D&D more than the other subforums because it's more of a pain in my arse.
  • hippofanthippofant Chu. Registered User regular
    edited March 19
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Well, it's a good thing I never said that, then.

    EDIT: Regarding Canadians in Canadian prison for over 2 years with 0 charges brought, am I supposed to be okay with that? I'm not okay with that. I think noting that I'm not okay with other countries doing that is consistent in my not okay with that stance.

    I legitimately have no idea what the fuck you're saying, other than just randomly throwing shade at me. You haven't elucidated any sensible framework of justice across international borders, nor even started laying down the framework for an ethical system by which we should evaluate extradition. "This bad thing happened, so therefore hippofant is wrong," is pretty much all I can piece together. "Hassan Diab is an example of extradition gone wrong, which means that all extradition is bad, which means that hippofant is bad for supporting extradition." Despite the fact that... (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canadas-extradition-law-a-legal-condundrum)
    Diab’s case is unusual, if not unique. He was sent Friday to a country that does not extradite its own citizens, an accommodation made by Canada in its extradition treaty with France and other countries. He hasn’t been charged and isn’t facing trial – typically the two conditions that must be in place before extradition.

    Not to mention I'm pretty sure your "facts" are wrong, since US->Canada extradition happens quite frequently due to the nature of cross-border cooperation (http://edmontonjournal.com/news/crime/u-s-man-accused-in-edmonton-murder-extradited-to-canada), though again, population numbers means things usually go the other way. (I am assuming you're talking about CITIZENS, and not just "people", since both France and the US have extradited Canadian citizens who've fled to those countries.)

    hippofant on
  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    "Hassan Diab is an example of extradition gone wrong, which means that all extradition is bad, which means that hippofant is bad for supporting extradition."

    That's not at all what I was saying. I wasn't aware that to have an opinion in this thread required me to propose an entire framework of international justice, or an ethical system by which it could be built upon.

    I do not have the education or experience in order to propose such a complicated framework without much research and consideration. Since I do not, I will withdraw my opinion regarding Richy's post.

    Tube wrote: »
    No, I hate D&D more than the other subforums because it's more of a pain in my arse.
  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Well, it's a good thing I never said that, then.

    EDIT: Regarding Canadians in Canadian prison for over 2 years with 0 charges brought, am I supposed to be okay with that? I'm not okay with that. I think noting that I'm not okay with other countries doing that is consistent in my not okay with that stance.

    Stuff like that probably factors into the recent Supreme Court ruling on speed of criminal trials that's got all the OMG Tough On Crime people in the country bursting into indignant flames recently, so with luck we'll be seeing a lot less of it in the future.

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