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[US and Russia] Talk about Trump connections to Russia here.

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  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Class Traitor Smoke-filled roomRegistered User regular
    Nobody is reporting it though

    Like I'm gonna go ahead and say it's highly unlikely "Flynn is talking to the FBI" is something the average person is hearing right now

    Doubt someone is gonna get murdered because of a Twitter rumor

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    This puts Flynn in a bind. Say it's true he hasn't flipped, the media reporting this, whether it's bullshit or the truth, will make Putin react by making sure Flynn doesn't get the chance to squeal because the risk is too high to let him live. This becomes the stick prosecutors can use to get him actually flip in exchange for protection.

    I'm sorry, but as untouchable as Putin likely is now in Russia, I don't think he would go so far as to try and assassinate an American citizen, especially one who was recently very high in the government.

    Ruin them, blackmail them, make their life hell? Sure. But not murder.

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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Juggernut wrote: »
    Yeah until I see an AP tweet or something I'm not buying it.

    Doesn't meant I don't want to buy it. Just need more than twitrer scuttlebutt.

    Yeah, the way it is phrased...

    "From my sources and what has been openly reported, it increasingly looks like #Flynn may have a deal with the FBI."

    The key parts there are "what has been openly reported", "increasingly looks like," and "May have."

    That's cable news-ese for "I don't know shit, but me and my friends are gossiping and we think it could be true."

    She's careful to not actually make a claim of fact, but rather a claim about the visuals, of interpretation. It looks like Flynn struck a deal is not reporting that "Flynn struck a deal, sources say."

    Kana on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Athenor wrote: »
    This puts Flynn in a bind. Say it's true he hasn't flipped, the media reporting this, whether it's bullshit or the truth, will make Putin react by making sure Flynn doesn't get the chance to squeal because the risk is too high to let him live. This becomes the stick prosecutors can use to get him actually flip in exchange for protection.

    I'm sorry, but as untouchable as Putin likely is now in Russia, I don't think he would go so far as to try and assassinate an American citizen, especially one who was recently very high in the government.

    Ruin them, blackmail them, make their life hell? Sure. But not murder.

    Yeah, it is one thing to kill Russians, it is another to kill American generals, even disgraced ones, on American soil. That is the kind of thing that leads somewhere Putin probably does not and should not want to go.

    Jealous Deva on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    There's a Turkish newspaper now putting Rep Nunes in the room with Flynn and the Turkish Ambassador that cooked up that forced extradition/kidnapping scheme that was in the WSJ yesterday.

    I'm not seeing it from other sources, yet, though. This could be part of what has him spooked enough to start cancelling hearings.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    If the Russian government ordered the killing of a US citizen on US soil, especially an ex-command officer and member of the US government, and got found out, then I dunno what would happen but I guarantee that it would involve the US flipping the fuck out and Moscow doesn't want that.

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Russia generally kills people as a public scare-tactic. It's always "oops, what an accident, we certainly didn't murder him like we're going to murder you, wink wink".

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    The NYT is reporting that Boris Epshteyn is being shuffled out of the public eye by the administration. He's got an interesting history with Russia.

    In 2013 he was working to promote American investment in Russia, specifically working with a bunch of city officials from Moscow. There's been talk that he might even have been Source E, the one that made the introductions, in the Steele dossier. He also "grew up in Russia" according to the Times and is a friend of the families through Jr.

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/corruption-protests-held-russia-arrests-reported-46381149
    Thousands of people crowded into Moscow's Pushkin Square on Sunday for an unsanctioned protest against the Russian government, part of a wave of demonstrations taking place throughout the country.

    Alexei Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner who is leading the opposition to President Vladimir Putin, was arrested while walking from a nearby subway station to the demonstration, according to Associated Press journalists at the scene.

    Navalny and his Foundation for Fighting Corruption had called for the protests, which attracted crowds of hundreds or thousands in most sizeable Russian cities, from the Far East port of Vladivostok to the European heartland. The protests were the largest coordinated outpourings of dissatisfaction in Russia since the massive 2011-12 demonstrations that followed a fraud-tainted parliamentary election.

    Russia is dealing with some civil-unrest today.

  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/corruption-protests-held-russia-arrests-reported-46381149
    Thousands of people crowded into Moscow's Pushkin Square on Sunday for an unsanctioned protest against the Russian government, part of a wave of demonstrations taking place throughout the country.

    Alexei Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner who is leading the opposition to President Vladimir Putin, was arrested while walking from a nearby subway station to the demonstration, according to Associated Press journalists at the scene.

    Navalny and his Foundation for Fighting Corruption had called for the protests, which attracted crowds of hundreds or thousands in most sizeable Russian cities, from the Far East port of Vladivostok to the European heartland. The protests were the largest coordinated outpourings of dissatisfaction in Russia since the massive 2011-12 demonstrations that followed a fraud-tainted parliamentary election.

    Russia is dealing with some civil-unrest today.

    I am baffled and impressed that some progressive Russians have adopted the "Putin can't murder us ALL" strategy.

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/corruption-protests-held-russia-arrests-reported-46381149
    Thousands of people crowded into Moscow's Pushkin Square on Sunday for an unsanctioned protest against the Russian government, part of a wave of demonstrations taking place throughout the country.

    Alexei Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner who is leading the opposition to President Vladimir Putin, was arrested while walking from a nearby subway station to the demonstration, according to Associated Press journalists at the scene.

    Navalny and his Foundation for Fighting Corruption had called for the protests, which attracted crowds of hundreds or thousands in most sizeable Russian cities, from the Far East port of Vladivostok to the European heartland. The protests were the largest coordinated outpourings of dissatisfaction in Russia since the massive 2011-12 demonstrations that followed a fraud-tainted parliamentary election.

    Russia is dealing with some civil-unrest today.

    I am baffled and impressed that some progressive Russians have adopted the "Putin can't murder us ALL" strategy.

    Well, if you start murdering too many people, it can slide from "oppression" to "civil war" pretty fluidly.

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • OghulkOghulk Tinychat Janitor TinychatRegistered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    If the Russian government ordered the killing of a US citizen on US soil, especially an ex-command officer and member of the US government, and got found out, then I dunno what would happen but I guarantee that it would involve the US flipping the fuck out and Moscow doesn't want that.

    There is absolutely no way Moscow would go that far. If they did then they're a lot crazier than we've been giving them credit for. That's the type of thing that results in nukes being launched.

    Also figured Nunes was compromised in some way by this. No reason for him to do what he's been doing unless he's starting to get scared.

  • UnluckyUnlucky That's not meant to happen Registered User regular
    Well, if you start murdering too many people, it can slide from "oppression" to "civil war" pretty fluidly.
    If ever there were a country I'd put money on uprising, given their history, it'd be Russia. Personally I think this is some of the most inspiring news I've heard for the future of the country in a long while.

    Fantastic
  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/corruption-protests-held-russia-arrests-reported-46381149
    Thousands of people crowded into Moscow's Pushkin Square on Sunday for an unsanctioned protest against the Russian government, part of a wave of demonstrations taking place throughout the country.

    Alexei Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner who is leading the opposition to President Vladimir Putin, was arrested while walking from a nearby subway station to the demonstration, according to Associated Press journalists at the scene.

    Navalny and his Foundation for Fighting Corruption had called for the protests, which attracted crowds of hundreds or thousands in most sizeable Russian cities, from the Far East port of Vladivostok to the European heartland. The protests were the largest coordinated outpourings of dissatisfaction in Russia since the massive 2011-12 demonstrations that followed a fraud-tainted parliamentary election.

    Russia is dealing with some civil-unrest today.

    I am baffled and impressed that some progressive Russians have adopted the "Putin can't murder us ALL" strategy.

    Well, if you start murdering too many people, it can slide from "oppression" to "civil war" pretty fluidly.

    Something the Russian state is keenly aware of since it happened to their buddy Bashar al Assad

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  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    I think Putin is going to sour hard on Trump after the events of today

    Keep in mind the protests against his re-election is what killed US-Russia cooperation.

    He will view these protests as CIA fomented active operations as retaliation for his election meddling

    pretty jarring shot from the protests:

    KetBra on
    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • MuddypawsMuddypaws Lactodorum, UKRegistered User regular
    Those people have a courage I don't think I'd be able to muster. Protest is tough at the best of times, but in Russia? That's some steel.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    Those people have a courage I don't think I'd be able to muster. Protest is tough at the best of times, but in Russia? That's some steel.

    It's the upside to a culture that has embraced machismo so much that "don't be a pussy" is a local saying and walking along narrow beams at deadly heights is a common hobby.

  • KetBraKetBra Dressed Ridiculously Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    Those people have a courage I don't think I'd be able to muster. Protest is tough at the best of times, but in Russia? That's some steel.

    It's the upside to a culture that has embraced machismo so much that "don't be a pussy" is a local saying and walking along narrow beams at deadly heights is a common hobby.

    I kinda have to disagree with the notion of masculinity and bravery being inherently correlated or tied or whatever but that's like a whole nother thing

    KGMvDLc.jpg?1
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Russians aren't strangers to suffering.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Being anti government in Russia is terrifying

    I read an incredible series of articles about it where it's, like, if you are serious about it you leave your family and never contact them so they won't be picked up by the authorities, you don't have kids so they can't be threatened etc

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Muddypaws wrote: »
    Those people have a courage I don't think I'd be able to muster. Protest is tough at the best of times, but in Russia? That's some steel.

    It's the upside to a culture that has embraced machismo so much that "don't be a pussy" is a local saying and walking along narrow beams at deadly heights is a common hobby.

    I kinda have to disagree with the notion of masculinity and bravery being inherently correlated or tied or whatever but that's like a whole nother thing

    I never said it was a positive trait. Just that it happens to be backlashing on those in power.

  • NSDFRandNSDFRand FloridaRegistered User regular
    Trace wrote: »
    http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/corruption-protests-held-russia-arrests-reported-46381149
    Thousands of people crowded into Moscow's Pushkin Square on Sunday for an unsanctioned protest against the Russian government, part of a wave of demonstrations taking place throughout the country.

    Alexei Navalny, the anti-corruption campaigner who is leading the opposition to President Vladimir Putin, was arrested while walking from a nearby subway station to the demonstration, according to Associated Press journalists at the scene.

    Navalny and his Foundation for Fighting Corruption had called for the protests, which attracted crowds of hundreds or thousands in most sizeable Russian cities, from the Far East port of Vladivostok to the European heartland. The protests were the largest coordinated outpourings of dissatisfaction in Russia since the massive 2011-12 demonstrations that followed a fraud-tainted parliamentary election.

    Russia is dealing with some civil-unrest today.

    Alexei Navalny is an interesting guy. When he first started getting involved in politics and anti corruption work he was charged with embezzling ~$500,000 of timber from a state operated lumber company. IIRC he was convicted, but it was vacated after a huge protest formed outside of the court house. Then both he and his brother were charged and convicted for scamming customers while running an import business that he helped his brother set up, allegedly stealing millions of rubles from customers through fraudulent customs fees and taxes. His brother was put in for real Russian prison (as a hostage essentially) and he was sentenced to house arrest. However in Russian criminal law one cannot be sentenced to house arrest as punishment for a crime, Navalny knew this, and so he just cut off his monitoring anklet and went about his normal business with the police following behind him begging him to go home. He also planned to run in the presidential election next year, was projected to barely break 10% of the vote (so not a real threat to Putin) and was then convicted (again, same charges that were previously vacated) of defrauding a state owned company. This was pretty obviously done to prevent his candidacy, and allegedly before the actual conviction his campaign was already under attack indirectly.

  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Oghulk wrote: »
    Solar wrote: »
    If the Russian government ordered the killing of a US citizen on US soil, especially an ex-command officer and member of the US government, and got found out, then I dunno what would happen but I guarantee that it would involve the US flipping the fuck out and Moscow doesn't want that.

    There is absolutely no way Moscow would go that far. If they did then they're a lot crazier than we've been giving them credit for. That's the type of thing that results in nukes being launched.

    Also figured Nunes was compromised in some way by this. No reason for him to do what he's been doing unless he's starting to get scared.

    The thing is; how much interference could Trump run in this situation?

  • JoeUserJoeUser Forum Santa Registered User regular
    Will the Trump administration condemn the arrest of peaceful protestors?

  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Will the Trump administration condemn the arrest of peaceful protestors?

    They will probably condemn the corrupt protesters controlled by Obama, Soros and Hillary instead

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Will the Trump administration applaud the arrest of violent rioters?

    About the only people Trump hasn't criticised in the last two years is Russia and Putin.,

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    PLA wrote: »
    Russia generally kills people as a public scare-tactic. It's always "oops, what an accident, we certainly didn't murder him like we're going to murder you, wink wink".

    "Oh, he commited suicide..in the back seat of his car..in an alley way, by shooting himself several times in the chest and head.. with a handgun that doesn't match the caliber of rounds found inside him."

  • belligerentbelligerent Registered User regular
    edited March 2017


    another thread from abramson. This time suggesting that the Steele Dossier has been mostly verified, and Dems are trying to get him to testify. The primary source of the dossier was murdered 12 days after it leaked.

    edit: So are we saying abramson is not a credible journalist? I'll stop linking if so.

    belligerent on
  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular


    another thread from abramson. This time suggesting that the Steele Dossier has been mostly verified, and Dems are trying to get him to testify. The primary source of the dossier was murdered 12 days after it leaked.

    edit: So are we saying abramson is not a credible journalist? I'll stop linking if so.

    Whether he's credible or not, he seems to be citing his sources pretty hard there.

  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    I can't tell if Seth Abramson is going to be correct or has gone completely nuts.

  • WACriminalWACriminal Dying Is Easy, Young Man Living Is HarderRegistered User regular
    I can't tell if Seth Abramson is going to be correct or has gone completely nuts.

    I feel like that's a function of the situation's crazy-factor. Anybody who accurately predicts the end of all this is probably going to sound at least a little crazy.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    WACriminal wrote: »
    I can't tell if Seth Abramson is going to be correct or has gone completely nuts.

    I feel like that's a function of the situation's crazy-factor. Anybody who accurately predicts the end of all this is probably going to sound at least a little crazy.

    As I've said a couple of times, if I went back to 1987 and tried to tell this story...

    That said, I'm withholding judgment (and hope) until there's more.

  • LabelLabel Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    It is possible to be crazy, wrong about some pieces, and right about others, all at the same time. I don't know Seth Abramson, or follow his work.

    Label on
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Buttcleft wrote: »
    PLA wrote: »
    Russia generally kills people as a public scare-tactic. It's always "oops, what an accident, we certainly didn't murder him like we're going to murder you, wink wink".

    "Oh, he commited suicide..in the back seat of his car..in an alley way, by shooting himself several times in the chest and head.. with a handgun that doesn't match the caliber of rounds found inside him."

    whats interesting about the way Putin's regime murders its citizens is that it doesnt really. There is often no direct link to Putin, and most experts will tell you he never actually orders the hits as youd imagine a mafia boss would. Instead he has simply created a climate in which those in power in a certain area or region of politics will be rewarded if someone known to be problematic dies in their jurisdiction so to speak. So technically Putin doesnt "order" these deaths, because he doesnt have to, he has created a system wherein people just know what to do and take it upon themselves. The whole system Putin benefits from, (that he has largely refined and perfected), works so that everyone is pretty much as dirty as he is, so theres always someone willing to kill a journalist not because Putin ordered it, but because theyre a stepping stone in the journalists investigation of the hierarchy of corruption (and so more likely to be scapegoated). It makes things much more banal and broad in terms of the evil youre fighting.

    This means that they dont really have to be clandestine, so you get rather lazy cover ups if any cover up at all, because really, theres no legal way to prosecute Putin or any higher up, because they are genuinely not directly linked. Its very smart and yet also leads to eyerollingly obvious cover ups like "died naturally of blunt force trauma in his office" situations with coroner reports.

    Prohass on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    The idea that a poetry critic whose previous attempts at punditry amounted to "Bernie Sanders is totally winning the primary with my secret math" which he maintained well through June has this story before every national security and justice reporter on two continents is ludicrous and a testament to how stupid and desperate the internet can get.

    The man is an idiot.

    enlightenedbum on
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  • SpaffySpaffy Fuck the Zero Registered User regular


    another thread from abramson. This time suggesting that the Steele Dossier has been mostly verified, and Dems are trying to get him to testify. The primary source of the dossier was murdered 12 days after it leaked.

    edit: So are we saying abramson is not a credible journalist? I'll stop linking if so.

    Wait what?

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  • kedinikkedinik Captain of Industry Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    Spaffy wrote: »


    another thread from abramson. This time suggesting that the Steele Dossier has been mostly verified, and Dems are trying to get him to testify. The primary source of the dossier was murdered 12 days after it leaked.

    edit: So are we saying abramson is not a credible journalist? I'll stop linking if so.

    Wait what?

    Oleg Erovinkin was a Russian intelligence officer who likely had personal knowledge of whether the financial allegations in the dossier were true

    He was found dead, apparently murdered, in the back of his car

    kedinik on
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  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    edited March 2017
    So this seems a bit concerning: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/chairman-and-partisan-the-dual-roles-of-devin-nunes-raise-questions-about-house-investigation/2017/03/26/2c95ade2-1096-11e7-9b0d-d27c98455440_story.html
    The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee was on his way to an event in Washington late Tuesday when the evening’s plans abruptly changed. After taking a brief phone call, Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.) swapped cars and slipped away from his staff, congressional officials said. He appears to have used that unaccounted-for stretch of time to review classified intelligence files brought to his attention by sources he has said he will not name.
    Schiff also implied he suspects a White House hand in what he called Nunes’s “dead-of-night excursion” to view classified documents. Several congressional officials said they were told about the phone call and swapped cars by members of Nunes’s staff.

    Jack Langer, a spokesman for Nunes, disputed the depiction. “That account is inaccurate,” Langer said. He declined to elaborate.

    To review classified files without breaking the law, Nunes would have needed to do so at a secure facility. Congressional officials said that the director of National Intelligence, the FBI and National Security Agency had all indicated that they got no late-night visit from Nunes, a trip that probably would have been entered in security logs.

    Nunes has repeatedly refused to say where he went or whether the documents were provided by the White House, including when confronted by committee members during a closed-door meeting on Thursday, officials said.
    So a clandestine meeting to get 'classified information' from unnamed sources....but not actually viewed in the secure facility that he's supposed to use for that purpose? There sure is a lot of smoke here.

    They might actually be learning about that whole "self-incriminating" thing:
    White House spokesman Sean Spicer also refused to rule out a White House role in providing access to the files. “I don’t know where he got the documents from, so I can’t say anything more than ‘I don’t know,’ ” Spicer said during Friday’s White House briefing.

    Spoit on
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  • KanaKana Registered User regular
    The idea that a poetry critic whose previous attempts at punditry amounted to "Bernie Sanders is totally winning the primary with my secret math" which he maintained well through June has this story before every national security and justice reporter on two continents is ludicrous and a testament to how stupid and desperate the internet can get.

    The man is an idiot.

    I mean, just look at this sort of argument:



    "Trump unable to prove a negative" is not an argument any self respecting journalist would be making, whether the actual allegations are true or not.

    In general right now I think certain members of the left are veering way too far towards conspiracy theory crafting, creating vast world-sweeping plots that include every possible theory and claim against Trump and would require incredible competence on the part of everyone involved.

    This is a problem, because it undercuts the much more supportable and reasonable case against Trump, which is pretty robust all by itself.

    A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    I mean, the whole Koch et al funding the tea party and other vast right wing conspiracies already primed the pump. It's already hard to discuss this kind of thing without it sounding like you're ranting about the illuminati.

    There were articles just the other week about people refusing to belive provisions of trumpcare because they were just too cartoonishly evil

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