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"[Obamacare] is the law of the land" - Paul Ryan; AHCA pulled from House before vote

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  • Brutal JBrutal J Sorry! Sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Registered User regular
    Cog wrote: »
    The really annoying part about that transcript are all the hand picked stooges they have there to tell him their story about how on Obamacare their premiums went up 6000% and the government told them they can't see any doctor except Doctor Doom.

    I don't know much about comics, but from my understanding, the Latverian healthcare system is almost certainly single payer.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Also having Doctor Doom as your physician would probably mean you never, ever get sick.

    Forced to work on behalf of Latveria, yes. But you'd be the healthiest person on the planet!

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  • milskimilski ENDURE Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    The Trump admin can make the ACA fail, or at least get significantly worse, using administrative discretion. Trump is probably wrong that he can get the electorate to blame Obama for that failure, given that the base can probably at least see the logic in "Trump runs the country but didn't do what he said he'd do, and what Republicans have been saying they'd do for ages now."

    But then who the fuck knows? 45% of the country are morons or moron enablers. Part of me wonders why Trump and the GOP aren't flat out lying about what's in the bill. "The AHCA calls for every American to receive a blowjob from a sexy nurse while punching a Democrat in the face. Call your Congresspeople now to demand they pass the AHCA." Instead they're trying to weasel their way through it, which doesn't work nearly as well as the bigger lie.

    1) AHCA fails to pass.
    2) Administration uses the various levers of power to break the ACA as much as possible.
    3) Tap the resulting anger at the broken ACA to rack up larger majorities in the 2018 elections.

    I can't really see any reason why that wouldn't work.

    Because people blame the administration in power for anything that happens.

    All of these fantasies about the Republicans intentionally doing awful things to gain votes because people will blame the Democrats basically rely on starting from the premise of "heads, we lose, tails, they win."

    If it is axiomatic that Republicans will get credit for all wins and Democrats will get credit for all failures we may as well just give up. But that's a stupid axiom and we shouldn't.

    Old night. Cold core. Iron, cooling. The Message: no more.
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  • DeliciousTacosDeliciousTacos Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Yeah, most voters aren't exactly plugged into this stuff enough to think about the finer points of whose plan is doing what

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-real-world-of-obamacare-repeal/2017/03/16/cba55228-0a71-11e7-b77c-0047d15a24e0_story.html
    Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    DeliciousTacos on
    Sleep
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    Harry DresdenEdith UpwardsJuliusSleepXaquinLoisLaneGnome-InterruptusSquigieCalicaGiggles_Funsworth
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/who-to-trust-when-it-comes-to-health-care-reform-trump-supporters-put-their-faith-in-him/2017/03/16/1c702d58-0a64-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html
    Whom to trust when it comes to health-care reform? Trump supporters put their faith in him.
    NASHVILLE — Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    [...]
    Trump is already getting credit for the work of a black guy.

    I really hope the guy in there admitting to committing annual tax-fraud gets audited and given a good monetary fucking.
    His friend Tim Weinberger, a 48-year-old owner of a small maintenance company, doesn’t have that kind of cash and hasn’t had insurance in at least a decade. The last time he saw a doctor was six years ago, after an accident. When Obamacare first started, Weinberger said, it would have cost him about $250 per month for a plan, which he couldn’t afford. He assumes the price is even higher now. So Weinberger goes without insurance, as do his two employees. When filing his taxes, Weinberger says, he claims to have insurance to avoid having to pay a penalty he considers unfair.

    "Waaaaaaaah. It's unfair. Waaaaaaaah. I'm not a snowflake, you're a snowflake. Waaaaaaaaah."

    LovelySleepLoisLaneGnome-InterruptusrockrngerN1tSt4lkerZomroFencingsaxTofystedethArdolKarozOghulkRhesus PositiveStiltsLabelCommander ZoomCalicaMvrckMatevGiggles_Funsworth
  • milskimilski ENDURE Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Shivahn wrote: »
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    I mean my statement was not meant to say that everybody will blame Republicans, there aren't partisans, or that there isn't work to be done.

    But if you are assuming that the default state, all else equal, is that more people blame the Democrats for a failure the Republicans caused during a Republican administration, you are assuming a situation in which we always lose forever because unpeelable Republican partisans outnumber Democrat partisans and neutral voters. There's no point doing shit in that scenario.

    milski on
    Old night. Cold core. Iron, cooling. The Message: no more.
    Spoit
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    I mean my statement was not meant to say that everybody will blame Republicans, there aren't partisans, or that there isn't work to be done.

    But if you are assuming that the default state, all else equal, is that more people blame the Democrats for a failure the Republicans caused during a Republican administration, you are assuming a situation in which we always lose forever because unpeelable Republican partisans outnumber Democrat partisans and neutral voters. There's no point doing shit in that scenario.

    Man, more people blaming the democrats for a failure that republicans cause doesn't instantly imply that Republican partisans are unpeelable, just that they need to be peeled.

    Edith UpwardsSleeptynic
  • TL DRTL DR Not at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/who-to-trust-when-it-comes-to-health-care-reform-trump-supporters-put-their-faith-in-him/2017/03/16/1c702d58-0a64-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html
    Whom to trust when it comes to health-care reform? Trump supporters put their faith in him.
    NASHVILLE — Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    [...]
    Trump is already getting credit for the work of a black guy.

    I really hope the guy in there admitting to committing annual tax-fraud gets audited and given a good monetary fucking.
    His friend Tim Weinberger, a 48-year-old owner of a small maintenance company, doesn’t have that kind of cash and hasn’t had insurance in at least a decade. The last time he saw a doctor was six years ago, after an accident. When Obamacare first started, Weinberger said, it would have cost him about $250 per month for a plan, which he couldn’t afford. He assumes the price is even higher now. So Weinberger goes without insurance, as do his two employees. When filing his taxes, Weinberger says, he claims to have insurance to avoid having to pay a penalty he considers unfair.

    "Waaaaaaaah. It's unfair. Waaaaaaaah. I'm not a snowflake, you're a snowflake. Waaaaaaaaah."

    Your malice toward this guy is inappropriate. He's a victim of this system and if he doesn't know who to blame then that represents a failure of society, not some moral failing on his part.

    If our civilization requires all maintenance workers to Be Into Politics the way we are, and the way other people are into sports, then we're absolutely sunk.

    Edith Upwardsspool32
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/who-to-trust-when-it-comes-to-health-care-reform-trump-supporters-put-their-faith-in-him/2017/03/16/1c702d58-0a64-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html
    Whom to trust when it comes to health-care reform? Trump supporters put their faith in him.
    NASHVILLE — Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    [...]
    Trump is already getting credit for the work of a black guy.

    I really hope the guy in there admitting to committing annual tax-fraud gets audited and given a good monetary fucking.
    His friend Tim Weinberger, a 48-year-old owner of a small maintenance company, doesn’t have that kind of cash and hasn’t had insurance in at least a decade. The last time he saw a doctor was six years ago, after an accident. When Obamacare first started, Weinberger said, it would have cost him about $250 per month for a plan, which he couldn’t afford. He assumes the price is even higher now. So Weinberger goes without insurance, as do his two employees. When filing his taxes, Weinberger says, he claims to have insurance to avoid having to pay a penalty he considers unfair.

    "Waaaaaaaah. It's unfair. Waaaaaaaah. I'm not a snowflake, you're a snowflake. Waaaaaaaaah."

    Your malice toward this guy is inappropriate. He's a victim of this system and if he doesn't know who to blame then that represents a failure of society, not some moral failing on his part.

    If our civilization requires all maintenance workers to Be Into Politics the way we are, and the way other people are into sports, then we're absolutely sunk.

    Eh. He's not only fucking himself but his two employees and I'll bet ya a dollar he's misrepresenting thing to those two employees.

    iTunesIsEvilSleepLoisLaneKayne Red RobeAngelHedgieGnome-InterruptusN1tSt4lkerkimePhoenix-DFencingsaxShortyOghulkAridholRhesus PositivetynicStiltsLabelNijaCommander ZoomMrVyngaardknitdanTicaldfjamshrykeJohnny ChopsockyBlackDragon480MahnmutKetBraGundiCalicaMvrckMatevLovelyMegaMekYamiB.Giggles_Funsworth
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    TL DR wrote: »
    Your malice toward this guy is inappropriate. He's a victim of this system and if he doesn't know who to blame then that represents a failure of society, not some moral failing on his part.

    It's true he's a victim, but the thing he's played a big part in that victimization whether he likes it or not, and when voting ends up with people like Trump in office sympathy gets in short supply. Especially when they refuse to learn from their mistakes, for various reasons. Because the odds are very high he's going to vote for Trump in the next presidential no matter what. We're in a very dark time at the moment.
    If our civilization requires all maintenance workers to Be Into Politics the way we are, and the way other people are into sports, then we're absolutely sunk.

    I've got bad news to tell you...

    Harry Dresden on
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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    Just when you thought it couldn't get worse ...

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/16/politics/health-care-bill-leadership/index.html
    One change that House leaders are considering is adding a work requirement for able-bodied adults who receive Medicaid. The change may appease some conservatives without alienating moderates that leadership needs to hold on to.
    Yeah, most voters aren't exactly plugged into this stuff enough to think about the finer points of whose plan is doing what

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-real-world-of-obamacare-repeal/2017/03/16/cba55228-0a71-11e7-b77c-0047d15a24e0_story.html
    Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    I wonder what she will think when it mysteriously goes back up to 500?(Tax credits won't change the premium, just give you more money in your refund, which most people just blow within a couple of months).

    Lovely
  • JuliusJulius Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Julius wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    A video from the Tucker Carlson interview of Trump yesterday.

    His response to every criticism until the bill is passed is going to be that it is still being negotiated.

    but... it is his proposal.

    Does he know how negotiations work?

    Its not though... it's really the Ryan plan.

    yes but it's from his side. "still in negotiations" is a sensible response when the other side is demanding a thing, not when you yourself are demanding a thing. if something is bad, don't include it, don't act like it appeared there by magic and you're trying your hardest to remove it.

    Ardol
  • iTunesIsEviliTunesIsEvil Registered User regular
    TL DR wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/who-to-trust-when-it-comes-to-health-care-reform-trump-supporters-put-their-faith-in-him/2017/03/16/1c702d58-0a64-11e7-93dc-00f9bdd74ed1_story.html
    Whom to trust when it comes to health-care reform? Trump supporters put their faith in him.
    NASHVILLE — Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    [...]
    Trump is already getting credit for the work of a black guy.

    I really hope the guy in there admitting to committing annual tax-fraud gets audited and given a good monetary fucking.
    His friend Tim Weinberger, a 48-year-old owner of a small maintenance company, doesn’t have that kind of cash and hasn’t had insurance in at least a decade. The last time he saw a doctor was six years ago, after an accident. When Obamacare first started, Weinberger said, it would have cost him about $250 per month for a plan, which he couldn’t afford. He assumes the price is even higher now. So Weinberger goes without insurance, as do his two employees. When filing his taxes, Weinberger says, he claims to have insurance to avoid having to pay a penalty he considers unfair.

    "Waaaaaaaah. It's unfair. Waaaaaaaah. I'm not a snowflake, you're a snowflake. Waaaaaaaaah."

    Your malice toward this guy is inappropriate. He's a victim of this system and if he doesn't know who to blame then that represents a failure of society, not some moral failing on his part.

    If our civilization requires all maintenance workers to Be Into Politics the way we are, and the way other people are into sports, then we're absolutely sunk.

    Nah, it's completely appropriate. He's committing tax fraud because he finds something "unfair".

    Dude's got a basic responsibility to inform himself, not only so HE knows what he's talking about for his OWN benefit, but I believe that as an employer of at least 2 people he's got a additional duty to make sure his employees aren't getting screwed and he's not misinforming them as well.

    I have no sympathy for him, and hope that he's audited and he finds out what "expensive" really is. Tax-fraud: it's fairly fuckin' expensive.

    SleepToxLoisLaneDunderrockrngerZomrokimePhoenix-DeMoanderFencingsaxArdolShortyOghulkQuidAridholRhesus PositiveStiltsLabelCommander ZoomSpoitMrVyngaardTicaldfjamshrykeBlackDragon480IncenjucarEmerlmaster999KetBraMvrckMatevLovelyMegaMekGiggles_Funsworth
  • milskimilski ENDURE Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    I mean my statement was not meant to say that everybody will blame Republicans, there aren't partisans, or that there isn't work to be done.

    But if you are assuming that the default state, all else equal, is that more people blame the Democrats for a failure the Republicans caused during a Republican administration, you are assuming a situation in which we always lose forever because unpeelable Republican partisans outnumber Democrat partisans and neutral voters. There's no point doing shit in that scenario.

    Man, more people blaming the democrats for a failure that republicans cause doesn't instantly imply that Republican partisans are unpeelable, just that they need to be peeled.

    If you're fantasizing about that happening while the Republicans are in total power, as dave was, yes it absolutely implies the number of unpeelable partisans are so high as to mean it's losses forever. Which is why I reject it as stupid.

    Old night. Cold core. Iron, cooling. The Message: no more.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.

    Juliuszepherin
  • milskimilski ENDURE Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.

    That isn't what I am saying. I am saying that dave is being blindly pessimistic and proposing a situation that means we always lose, and calling that situation stupid and wrong.

    I am not trying to write a multiparagraph logical takedown of it because its nothing more to me than an extension of the doom and gloom naysaying that's already banned from the threads painted over with the veneer of 12d chess.

    milski on
    Old night. Cold core. Iron, cooling. The Message: no more.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    edited March 17
    milski wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.

    That isn't what I am saying. I am saying that dave is being blindly pessimistic and proposing a situation that means we always lose, and calling that situation stupid and wrong.

    Oh. Well, yeah, I don't disagree there.

    Shivahn on
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    But then who the fuck knows? 45% of the country are morons or moron enablers.

    This is unhelpful and insulting rhetoric.

    WaffenJebus314
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    edited March 17
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.
    Our company shifted from focusing on GSA business development to DOD business development. We are also trying to figure out how to get a piece of the "build the wall" contract.

    You have a pretty good idea how things are going to go, figure out a way to get yours. Don't buy any property that is 20ft above sea level or less.

    Get on your companies insurance because that's the only insurance your going to be able to get.

    zepherin on
    Sleep
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    milski wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    I mean my statement was not meant to say that everybody will blame Republicans, there aren't partisans, or that there isn't work to be done.

    But if you are assuming that the default state, all else equal, is that more people blame the Democrats for a failure the Republicans caused during a Republican administration, you are assuming a situation in which we always lose forever because unpeelable Republican partisans outnumber Democrat partisans and neutral voters. There's no point doing shit in that scenario.

    We're not in a default state, we're in a situation where Trump is having campaign rallies every other week where he's beating the drum that what he's doing is awesome and it's all the dastardly Democrats who are at fault. Trump's pitch is that Obamacare is broken and the AHCA will fix it. What are people going to think when the AHCA doesn't pass, but the ACA starts performing worse due to Republican interference?

    Stopping the ACHA is just the first step here.

    SleepJuliusLoisLane
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    But then who the fuck knows? 45% of the country are morons or moron enablers.

    This is unhelpful and insulting rhetoric.

    It is only unhelpful and insulting for those who voted for Trump. It is also true, they knew who they were voting for and now they're paying the price - and they'll likely vote for him next election, as well.

    SleepAistanXaquinrockrngereMoanderThe SauceRhesus PositiveSquigieHeraldSSpoitLoisLaneMrVyngaardToxMatevLovelyMegaMekYamiB.Giggles_Funsworth
  • ChanusChanus Never Backward Always ForwardRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    milski wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    We've entered an era of amazing partisanship. Humans are biased and will attribute bad things to others/outgroups and good things to ingroups. Generally, yeah, people misread who's in power and generally just assume the executive party is responsible for everything, but we've become so split that it wouldn't surprise me if low-information republican voters still attributed bad things to democrats and good things to Trump.

    I hope this is not the case, but this might be a thing that, at least, we need to capitalize on, rather than assume people will blame Republicans on their own.

    I mean my statement was not meant to say that everybody will blame Republicans, there aren't partisans, or that there isn't work to be done.

    But if you are assuming that the default state, all else equal, is that more people blame the Democrats for a failure the Republicans caused during a Republican administration, you are assuming a situation in which we always lose forever because unpeelable Republican partisans outnumber Democrat partisans and neutral voters. There's no point doing shit in that scenario.

    We're not in a default state, we're in a situation where Trump is having campaign rallies every other week where he's beating the drum that what he's doing is awesome and it's all the dastardly Democrats who are at fault. Trump's pitch is that Obamacare is broken and the AHCA will fix it. What are people going to think when the AHCA doesn't pass, but the ACA starts performing worse due to Republican interference?

    Stopping the ACHA is just the first step here.

    We are actually in a situation right now where the facts don't matter, the reality of a situation is irrelevant, and all that matters is the letter beside someone's name.

    Republican voters are unreachable, and are digging in their trenches further and further. They don't even believe the same reality Democrat voters believe. There is no point reaching out to them.

    If we want to fix healthcare, be it patching and repairing the ACA, or moving forward to better solutions, the only way to do that is to appeal to non-Republican voters and get Republicans out of the majority.

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  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Astaereth wrote: »
    But then who the fuck knows? 45% of the country are morons or moron enablers.

    This is unhelpful and insulting rhetoric.

    It is only unhelpful and insulting for those who voted for Trump. It is also true, they knew who they were voting for and now they're paying the price - and they'll likely vote for him next election, as well.

    Where is the correct thread to discuss this? I'm not going to be the tee you use to set up repeated partisan shots.

    zepherinKaroz
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.
    Our company shifted from focusing on GSA business development to DOD business development. We are also trying to figure out how to get a piece of the "build the wall" contract.

    You have a pretty good idea how things are going to go, figure out a way to get yours. Don't buy any property that is 20ft above sea level or less.

    Get on your companies insurance because that's the only insurance your going to be able to get.

    Yeah, the possible forks in my career path have suddenly been dammed up. The way forward is clearer.

    (because if academia wasn't appealing before, the fact that you're 1) usually a state employee and 2) get most of your money through school and NIH funds is going to drop the number of sustainable scientist positions rapidly)

  • CogCog Registered User regular
    I'm sick of Trump hedging around the "Actually I wish we could just let the ACA implode.. We can't of course because it'd be so bad for the country but... What's that? Did someone say let it implode? No? Okay. Well, if anyone does think that's a good idea, just say so. Not that I think it's a good idea, but if anyone does think so, just speak up. Not that we could do it. But I totally wish we could. You there, did you raise your hand? It looked like you were saying "let the ACA implode"? No? Of course we couldn't do that. Could we?"

    It's the same way he said shit like "Actually Hillary I could say something really mean to you but I won't" during the campaign & debates. You can tell he just wants someone to tell him it's ok so he can just fucking do it already. He wants this shit both ways.

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  • BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Reading over the WSJ Blue-Feed Red-feed thing on the ACA is interesting because on the Red side its actually crackling around the edges with some disunity. Aside from the mandatory mocking of lily-livered liberals and Obama conspiracies there does seem to be some level of disagreement on where to go beyond repeal repeal repeal.


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  • Martini_PhilosopherMartini_Philosopher Registered User regular
    Reading over the WSJ Blue-Feed Red-feed thing on the ACA is interesting because on the Red side its actually crackling around the edges with some disunity. Aside from the mandatory mocking of lily-livered liberals and Obama conspiracies there does seem to be some level of disagreement on where to go beyond repeal repeal repeal.

    It's so weird to me to see some of those headlines. To see the red side to thoroughly reject any sort of analysis is just plain odd. It really is all feels, all the time. It's not that the blue side is completely divorced of the emotional appeals but the reasoning for the emotional reactions are right there in the article.

    Wishful thinking and Prosperity gospel had a baby and this is it and it is ugly.

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  • Mr KhanMr Khan Piece of cake. HyruleRegistered User regular
    Reading over the WSJ Blue-Feed Red-feed thing on the ACA is interesting because on the Red side its actually crackling around the edges with some disunity. Aside from the mandatory mocking of lily-livered liberals and Obama conspiracies there does seem to be some level of disagreement on where to go beyond repeal repeal repeal.

    It's so weird to me to see some of those headlines. To see the red side to thoroughly reject any sort of analysis is just plain odd. It really is all feels, all the time. It's not that the blue side is completely divorced of the emotional appeals but the reasoning for the emotional reactions are right there in the article.

    Wishful thinking and Prosperity gospel had a baby and this is it and it is ugly.

    More like prosperity gospel and actual gospel, creating a world where the sufficiently faithful will be showered in cash and those who struggle suffer some moral sin or merely lack sufficient faith to share in the wealth.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Mr Khan wrote: »
    Reading over the WSJ Blue-Feed Red-feed thing on the ACA is interesting because on the Red side its actually crackling around the edges with some disunity. Aside from the mandatory mocking of lily-livered liberals and Obama conspiracies there does seem to be some level of disagreement on where to go beyond repeal repeal repeal.

    It's so weird to me to see some of those headlines. To see the red side to thoroughly reject any sort of analysis is just plain odd. It really is all feels, all the time. It's not that the blue side is completely divorced of the emotional appeals but the reasoning for the emotional reactions are right there in the article.

    Wishful thinking and Prosperity gospel had a baby and this is it and it is ugly.

    More like prosperity gospel and actual gospel, creating a world where the sufficiently faithful will be showered in cash and those who struggle suffer some moral sin or merely lack sufficient faith to share in the wealth.

    The whole prosperity gospel is a term because most of the concepts in it aren't in the actual gospel. Usually quite the opposite really.

    tynicLoisLane
  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    Yeah, most voters aren't exactly plugged into this stuff enough to think about the finer points of whose plan is doing what

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-real-world-of-obamacare-repeal/2017/03/16/cba55228-0a71-11e7-b77c-0047d15a24e0_story.html
    Soon after Charla McComic’s son lost his job, his health-insurance premium dropped from $567 per month to just $88, a “blessing from God” that she believes was made possible by President Trump.

    “I think it was just because of the tax credit,” said McComic, 52, a former first-grade teacher who traveled to Trump’s Wednesday night rally in Nashville from Lexington, Tenn., with her daughter, mother, aunt and cousin.

    The price change was actually thanks to a subsidy made possible by former president Barack Obama’s Affordable Care Act, which is still in place, not by the tax credits proposed by Republicans as part of the health-care bill still being considered by Congress.

    This annoys the crap out of me. A tax credit wouldn't make his premium go down. He'd have to pay the whole amount and then get some money back later, or write it off on taxes. It's just infuriating how much this cult of personality surrounding Trump has become. He's done absolutely nothing to help you or your son, at all. Fuck, might as well give him credit for the sun coming up every morning, because he's just as responsible for that.

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  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.

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  • Mr KhanMr Khan Piece of cake. HyruleRegistered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.


    We all know this for Ryan. The cuts are the goal. Healthcare is just this inconvenient thing he has to address to get to the cuts.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.


    What the fuck is even the point of capping medicaid!?

  • JoeUserJoeUser Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.


    What the fuck is even the point of capping medicaid!?

    To pay for tax cuts for the rich of course!

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  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.


    What the fuck is even the point of capping medicaid!?

    To give rich people bigger tax cuts.

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  • Mr KhanMr Khan Piece of cake. HyruleRegistered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    JoeUser wrote: »
    This is gross, reported by Politico's health care reporter. Rich Lowry is editor of the National Review, a conservative magazine.


    What the fuck is even the point of capping medicaid!?

    Take money from the shiftless mooches and return it to the Ubermensches who earned it, or something.

    SquigieLovely
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Uh, maybe I'm trying to figure out how best to capitalize on something and worried about a documented phenomenon that's been happening for the last fifteen years that makes it harder to predict the future?

    It's hardly fantasizing, given, you know, people are horribly biased and where people consume news from has become extremely partisan, and I explicitly said that there are ways to manipulate things to our advantage, so it's kind of... dumb to complain a second time that I'm saying they're unpeelable, and regardless, rejecting something as "stupid" has no real logical basis.

    In short, I'm not convinced things are fine and we can just ignore how the world's changed and refuse to adapt tactics to shifting landscapes.

    It is much much harder to persuade people that bad things are good and you should reward your leaders, than to persuade people that good things are bad and your leader's need to be punished.

    People believe and reinforce their personal hero narrative where they are responsible for good things in their life. Propaganda relies on this fact to prevent good things which are happening while they aren't in power from damaging their narrative. While the Propaganda issuer is IN power, and things are going badly, they need to find unifying, ideally powerless, enemies to blame for these failures. These enemies should be perceived to be common, but in fact be rarely encountered. These enemies should be perceived to be influential and powerful, but in fact be powerless and silenced in society. The Democrats are not this enemy.

    Most long lived regimes which rely on Propaganda share one or two initial features.

    1) They came to power after the defeat of a widely unpopular regime
    2) Their early years exploited enormous failures of the prior regime to achieve great success
    3) They were widely popular when they first came to power

    The Republicans have none of these things.

    Your puny weapons are useless against me
  • Mr KhanMr Khan Piece of cake. HyruleRegistered User regular
    The two solutions for reviving the bill are the medicaid work requirement, as well as block-granting the *entire* program rather than just the expansion to get the far right on board, and making the tax credits at the high end of the age scale more generous (though they'd have to be a hell of a lot more generous to offset the 7x higher premiums) to defuse the AARP, which probably won't work.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    So apparently they don't think it will get through the house.

    If they change the bill at this point, can they still keep it 'budget neutral' or whatever so they can use reconciliation?

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