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[The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild] Bokoblin Genocide Simulator

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Posts

  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    I just don't feel like you need an artificial system to keep you from doing one thing in a game or to divert you to another thing. If the systems are robust enough they should prop themselves up and be enjoyable regardless of other factors.

    I bet without durability the game would be just as fun for those who love it and more fun for those who hate it but we can't turn back time. It's become ingrained into the conversation because of it's existence.

    It is what it is at this point.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    Renzo wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    If there was no durability, you would never have to consider whether or not to fight. There would be no choice to make.

    There is still no choice in my opinion. Without durability, always fight. With durability, don't fight unless necessary. I fight less because I don't care what weapon someone has in a chest. Weapons are disposable. Otherwise I would kill everything and see what each chest had.
    I wonder if maybe this is compounding the problem for people; roughly speaking, the more stuff you kill, the more the world "levels up" and the better items you get.

    If people are avoiding too many fights, it may be taking longer to start getting stronger stuff; I know I gradually crossed a threshold after which I was pruning my available weapons rather than just using whatever I had.

    Yeah, refusing to engage with the systems will probably lead to frustration.

    and being forced to engage with a system people find unfun is also frustrating.

    You can't just dismiss peoples problems with it as refusing to engage with a system. that's unfair. If someones finding something unfun maybe try to understand why instead of blowing them off as not playing the "right" way.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Lucascraft wrote: »
    I'm playing the game like "normal." I approach a camp. I fight a dude. My sword breaks against that dude. I get out another weapon and kill the next dude. It breaks. Get my next weapon for the 3rd dude. It breaks.

    So at the end of the camp when the camp is clear and all the dudes are dead, I have replaced as many weapons as dudes that I have killed.

    Sometimes I find better weapons that last maybe 2-3 dudes before they break. But when they inevitably do break, then I'm back to just clubs and skeleton arms until I find another decent weapon.

    But even decent weapons are shit. There's no such thing as a "good weapon" in this game. A best case scenario is a weapon that might last as many as 5 dudes before it breaks. And that's still not enough.

    I don't think this is true. The game didn't feel like this at all to me, early game, mid-game or late game. I want to test it when I get home, not to prove you wrong or to try to convince you of anything, but because other people say things like this too and it just doesn't feel reflective of my own experience. I'm not sure if it's a function of the weapons I have, or because I use bombs and arrows more than I think I do, or what.

    To some extent this should even be calculable. A certain piece of gear shows enemy HP, and AFAIK every hit you do subtracts the weapon's attack value from the HP. And weapons break after a certain number of strikes every time, though that may be modified by the hardness of what you're hitting, like if you're going out attacking Taluses or whatever.

    I don't have any issues with it, but my observations definitely line up w/ lucas' . I average one weapon per dude, good weapons might last 2 or 3 dudes. This has been true for pretty much the entire game and I just wrapped up the divine beasts, so I think i'm pretty close to finishing the main story.

    What weapons? That's not been remotely my experience - boko clubs and the like break pretty quickly but the Royal Broadswords everything is running around with now easily last me a dozen or more enemies, and even Soldier's-tier gear tended to last through multiple camps unless there was something big like a Moblin involved.

    Boko clubs and rusty weapons have low durability. It says so in the description. They're shitty low-level weapons that are supposed to break quickly and you can still usually carve through a couple red bokoblins or whatever before they go. The idea that you're having to switch weapons every enemy is just hyperbole.

    I mean, we have actual durability numbers, now:
    Boko Clubs deal 4 damage and have 12 durability, meaning you can swing them 12 times before they break. that's 48 damage, which is enough to kill 3 basic bokoblins before it goes (which are basically the only thing you should ever have to regularly fight with a boko club). And that's one of the worst, lowest-durability weapons in the game.

    A Rusty Broadsword deals 6 damage and can swing 8 times. Again, shitty garbage weapon and it, too, can carve up at least 2 and probably 3 basic enemies before it breaks.

    A Soldier's Broadsword, on the other hand, is still a pretty basic, common weapon, deals 14 damage and swings 23 times. That's 322 damage, again not including crit bonuses. This one one-shots red bokoblins and can kill 4 blue ones (or a blue one and a black one, or 6 basic lizalfos) before it breaks, with some change left over. A Zora sword (which you can pick up from an infinitely-respawning source in Zora's Domain) does even better, with 15 damage and 27 swings, and a Knight's Broadsword pushed up to 26 damage/27 swings, clocking in at over 700 damage before it breaks.

    The Spiked Boko Clubs you start picking up off of every rando blue bokoblin almost as soon as they start showing up deals 12 damage and 14 swings - enough to kill 2 more blue bokoblins (and get their clubs) or a whole bunch of red ones. You can easily wipe out a camp of 1 blue bokoblin and 3 red ones with one of these without even triggering the 'low durability' warning - and pick up at least one new one in the process, plus some basic clubs and spears.

    Once you're getting Royal Broadswords - which doesn't take too long and eventually has them dropping off of every other black or silver bokoblin - they last 36 hits and do 36 damage, so you're able to cut down a ton of stuff - 18 blue bokoblins, or 7 black ones, or 9 of the advanced 120-hp lizalfos. The Master sword performs similarly to a Royal Broadsword, at 30 damage/40 swings.

    And obviously once you hit the late game and start picking up Savage Lynel Swords, your weapon durability is through the roof - those deal 58 damage, last for 41 hits, and usually roll with a durability bonus by the time you're able to get them consistently. Granted, that's an extreme late-game example.

    But those are just the 1h weapons! The 2-handers obviously deal more damage, and last longer.

    The simple iron hammers you can always find lying around even early in the game deal 12 damage and last for 40 hits. That's 20 bokoblins. 40, if you have an attack-up boost, since it comes in just under the 13 you need. Shitty Farmer's Pitchforks last 12 hits and deal 7 damage - again, an early-game low-durability weapon that can kill 6 bokoblins before it breaks.

    A Forked Lizal Spear - common drops off lizalfos in the mid-game - deals 18 damage with 28 durability. That's over 500 damage, enough to kill 10 basic lizalfos, or 4 advanced ones, or a couple moblins.

    A Knight's Halberd, also a common midgame drop, deals 600 damage before it breaks - enough to kill a red hinox without needing a second weapon (and grab the 2-4 weapons the hinox drops, to boot).

    A Silver Longsword (again, one you can pick up every blood moon in the early-ish game spawns in Zora's Domain) deals 22 damage with 30 durability. That's ~6-7 blue bokoblins, assuming you're even spawning them by the time you've got your hands on this sword, or ~10 basic lizalfos, or 5 blue ones, or 2 black lizalfos and some change.

    And again, once you're in the late game a Royal Claymore deals 52 damage and has 40 durability - you're not gonna drop a Lynel with one, but you can cut down half a dozen or more of any black-level enemy you care to engage, or 2-3 of any silver one, or like 30 blue bokoblins if you manage to sneak into hyrule castle and grab one of these while you're still spawning rank 2 stuff. And again, the savage lynel stuff clocks in even higher, with the hammer putting out almost 3000 damage before it breaks (again, assuming you are for some reason running around with an endgame weapon but WITHOUT an attack buff - otherwise it's more).

    There's a full durability/damage chart here, if anybody's interested.

    There's just no point in the game where your weapon is breaking after every single enemy except the ten minutes in the beginning where you're fighting bokoblins with a tree branch. A stalblin arm can kill two bokoblins (or 2 stalblins). A Traveler's Sword - one of the worst 'standard' durability weapons in the game - can kill 7. Throughout the game, assuming you're fighting enemies with 'equal rank' weapons and not using attack buffs to improve their performance, your range is basically that the shitty ones will kill 2-3 enemies and the good ones will kill anywhere from 5 to 10, occasionally more - and most of those enemies will be dropping replacement weapons of roughly the same tier. If you do use attack buffs, you're basically looking at 20-50% more oomph per weapon on top of that, depending on the rank of the buff.

    Edit: And even if we use 'encounters' as a metric, that doesn't actually change the math in any meaningful way, because an 'encounter' is generally 2-3 enemies, with some camps having as many as 5-6 - which means the low-durability weapons will usually last you 1 'encounter' and the high-durability ones will last you 2-3 (assuming you don't use bombs or arrows to thin out the encounter, which you're usually all but invited to do for the large camps that always have explosive barrels lying around). And each encounter will, at minimum, give you several more low-durability weapons to replace the one you used up, and will often give up one or more higher-durability multiple-encounter weapons.

    Abbalah on
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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    More lynel shenanigans I found to see how people fight them, are you kidding me????

    holy shit the number of weapon slots that guy has....

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    This is like a opossum overlord, the alpha-rodent from which all other rodents were wrought. In the beginning there was darkness, dirt, and this thing. God said "Let there be light" and even he jumped when he saw this fucking thing.


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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    If there was no durability, you would never have to consider whether or not to fight. There would be no choice to make.

    There is still no choice in my opinion. Without durability, always fight. With durability, don't fight unless necessary. I fight less because I don't care what weapon someone has in a chest. Weapons are disposable. Otherwise I would kill everything and see what each chest had.
    I wonder if maybe this is compounding the problem for people; roughly speaking, the more stuff you kill, the more the world "levels up" and the better items you get.

    If people are avoiding too many fights, it may be taking longer to start getting stronger stuff; I know I gradually crossed a threshold after which I was pruning my available weapons rather than just using whatever I had.

    Thing is, the world doesn't "level up" in a consistent matter, at least the way I've experienced it. I have silver bokoblins spawning now. Like I said, 700 hp, and they can do a boatload of damage if you let them. But they still use the same craptastic clubs all bokoblins use. So you're certainly not getting better weapons for taking them on. The only thing that remotely tips the balance scales back is that they always drop a gem or two, possibly even a diamond. But if I'm going to play that kind of numbers game, then I'd sooner farm talus that drop way more gems for the amount of durability I'll be using.

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  • RenzoRenzo Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    If there was no durability, you would never have to consider whether or not to fight. There would be no choice to make.

    There is still no choice in my opinion. Without durability, always fight. With durability, don't fight unless necessary. I fight less because I don't care what weapon someone has in a chest. Weapons are disposable. Otherwise I would kill everything and see what each chest had.
    I wonder if maybe this is compounding the problem for people; roughly speaking, the more stuff you kill, the more the world "levels up" and the better items you get.

    If people are avoiding too many fights, it may be taking longer to start getting stronger stuff; I know I gradually crossed a threshold after which I was pruning my available weapons rather than just using whatever I had.

    Yeah, refusing to engage with the systems will probably lead to frustration.

    and being forced to engage with a system people find unfun is also frustrating.

    You can't just dismiss peoples problems with it as refusing to engage with a system. that's unfair. If someones finding something unfun maybe try to understand why instead of blowing them off as not playing the "right" way.

    I've been reading this thread and the previous one far more than I've been posting in it. I've followed your ups and downs and Dirk's frustrations. And a bunch of other people. I've been reading.

    Some of it I totally get. You, for example. You know what you're talking about. I recognize you from Monster Hunter threads. Dissecting combat systems is your thing. I feel like I get where you're coming from.

    But some of what I'm reading from others just flat out does not match my experience with the game. Not just that it doesn't match, but it's unrecognizable. I can't figure out what some of these folks must be doing to get these results. Some accounts of weapons breaking read like complete fiction, like someone heard someone else talking about BotW and decided that they knew how it works.

    So that's why I made that comment above. It's not that people are frustrated, it's that it seems like people aren't being truthful. And I can't be part of a discussion where not all parties are telling the truth.

    What Abbalah posted just now sounds right to me. That is how my game works.

    Dr. Phibbs McAtheyAlphagaiaSpoitAbsoluteZeroMegaMeksgt robXerink
  • AbbalahAbbalah Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    If there was no durability, you would never have to consider whether or not to fight. There would be no choice to make.

    There is still no choice in my opinion. Without durability, always fight. With durability, don't fight unless necessary. I fight less because I don't care what weapon someone has in a chest. Weapons are disposable. Otherwise I would kill everything and see what each chest had.
    I wonder if maybe this is compounding the problem for people; roughly speaking, the more stuff you kill, the more the world "levels up" and the better items you get.

    If people are avoiding too many fights, it may be taking longer to start getting stronger stuff; I know I gradually crossed a threshold after which I was pruning my available weapons rather than just using whatever I had.

    Thing is, the world doesn't "level up" in a consistent matter, at least the way I've experienced it. I have silver bokoblins spawning now. Like I said, 700 hp, and they can do a boatload of damage if you let them. But they still use the same craptastic clubs all bokoblins use. So you're certainly not getting better weapons for taking them on. The only thing that remotely tips the balance scales back is that they always drop a gem or two, possibly even a diamond. But if I'm going to play that kind of numbers game, then I'd sooner farm talus that drop way more gems for the amount of durability I'll be using.

    They have a range of weapons they can spawn with. I'm not sure if that range scales the same way the actual monster scaling does, but they very regularly spawn with Royal Broadswords for me and I rarely see them with basic weapons (usually if they don't have a sword they've got a Dragonbone Boko Club or similar). They can definitely end up with basic clubs if they pick one up out of the environment, though.

    sgt rob
  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    Committing war crimes by seeing a bunch of bokoblins asleep in tall grass in a rocky alcove with one entrance and exit. Very dry tall grass with the wind blowing towards them.

    Fire is truly the great equalizer.

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  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't feel like you need an artificial system to keep you from doing one thing in a game or to divert you to another thing. If the systems are robust enough they should prop themselves up and be enjoyable regardless of other factors.
    Entaru wrote: »
    and being forced to engage with a system people find unfun is also frustrating.

    I disagree with the concept that people are "forced" into engaging in certain ways, because that could easily be said to apply to every game. You're always being forced into dealing with the game on its own terms, which sort of devalues the phrase.

    If you feel like you don't jump high enough in Mario then you're being forced to deal with sub-par jump height for the whole game. Running makes you jump higher, but you're forced to run to get that higher jump height which I'm sure ruined the game for somebody.

    FPSs have ammo and in many of them, technically you could run out of everything and be forced into meleeing. Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows. Meanwhile Link Between Worlds has unlimited arrows and bombs, and instead forces you to learn how to manage the stamina system, wait for the bar to refill etc.

    Hitman forces me to be sneaky, I can't effectively run in with guns blazing, especially because rewards are tied to silent, unnoticed, or accidental kills.

    I don't really feel forced into any of the above, though. It's just how the game is.

    Personally I'm glad they're willing to experiment. Some Zelda games are multiplayer, some are more open, some are more linear, some have motion controls, some have limited arrow supplies and some don't. One has a 3 day time limit on losing a lot of what you're carrying. One has a central dungeon you keep going back to again and again, unlocking shortcuts each time. I'm glad they feel like they can be creative and aren't pigeonholed into one formula every time.

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  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Renzo wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    If there was no durability, you would never have to consider whether or not to fight. There would be no choice to make.

    There is still no choice in my opinion. Without durability, always fight. With durability, don't fight unless necessary. I fight less because I don't care what weapon someone has in a chest. Weapons are disposable. Otherwise I would kill everything and see what each chest had.
    I wonder if maybe this is compounding the problem for people; roughly speaking, the more stuff you kill, the more the world "levels up" and the better items you get.

    If people are avoiding too many fights, it may be taking longer to start getting stronger stuff; I know I gradually crossed a threshold after which I was pruning my available weapons rather than just using whatever I had.

    Yeah, refusing to engage with the systems will probably lead to frustration.

    and being forced to engage with a system people find unfun is also frustrating.

    You can't just dismiss peoples problems with it as refusing to engage with a system. that's unfair. If someones finding something unfun maybe try to understand why instead of blowing them off as not playing the "right" way.

    I've been reading this thread and the previous one far more than I've been posting in it. I've followed your ups and downs and Dirk's frustrations. And a bunch of other people. I've been reading.

    Some of it I totally get. You, for example. You know what you're talking about. I recognize you from Monster Hunter threads. Dissecting combat systems is your thing. I feel like I get where you're coming from.

    But some of what I'm reading from others just flat out does not match my experience with the game. Not just that it doesn't match, but it's unrecognizable. I can't figure out what some of these folks must be doing to get these results. Some accounts of weapons breaking read like complete fiction, like someone heard someone else talking about BotW and decided that they knew how it works.

    So that's why I made that comment above. It's not that people are frustrated, it's that it seems like people aren't being truthful. And I can't be part of a discussion where not all parties are telling the truth.

    What Abbalah posted just now sounds right to me. That is how my game works.

    Ok. Now I understand better where your comment came from.

    From my point of view I think there's a place where people are getting to, at the very begging of the game, and the problems with the system are causing them to not get out past where that lessens and becomes less of an issue.

    The farther out you go from the begging the less if becomes a thing that effects most players. I'll completely agree that where I am the system largely works the way it should unless you want to become a weapon mater and then it actively discourages you from that. But that's OK because that's the way the game is.

    People have problems earlier on are merely running into the larger problem in a distilled manner because the game does have issues with breaking in the first. . .I don't know 4-5 hours? in that time frame you are throwing away a weapon per enemy and if you fight a group it can be hit and miss. That continues until you build up some better stuff.

    Entaru on
    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
    XBL:Phenyhelm - 3DS:Phenyhelm
  • Maz-Maz- 飛べ Registered User regular
    azith28 wrote: »
    More lynel shenanigans I found to see how people fight them, are you kidding me????

    holy shit the number of weapon slots that guy has....

    bitch please

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  • Dirk2112Dirk2112 Registered User regular
    Abbalah wrote: »

    They have a range of weapons they can spawn with. I'm not sure if that range scales the same way the actual monster scaling does, but they very regularly spawn with Royal Broadswords for me and I rarely see them with basic weapons (usually if they don't have a sword they've got a Dragonbone Boko Club or similar). They can definitely end up with basic clubs if they pick one up out of the environment, though.

    I think I am at this point as well. I am at 10 or 11 hearts and 2 Staminas. The knight's broadsword lasts a while and the Knight's Claymore lasts quite a while too. The lightsaber looking weapons from the shrine robots don't last too long. Because the weapons break less frequently, the game is more enjoyable now than it was when I had soldier's, travelers, and other crappy weapons. That is based on the weapons themselves and not the strength of the opponent. Early on, blue moblins were more annoying than the black ones are now if not solely because of crappy breakable weapons. The bombs made that less of an issue, but at a certain point this game became bomberman for me and I still use it way more than it should be used.

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  • Dirk2112Dirk2112 Registered User regular
    Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows.

    Not true at all. You don't have to use enchanted weapons. You can play the entire game without using bows as well. If you get the bound bow, you have unlimited arrows.

    NNID = Zepp914
  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't feel like you need an artificial system to keep you from doing one thing in a game or to divert you to another thing. If the systems are robust enough they should prop themselves up and be enjoyable regardless of other factors.
    Entaru wrote: »
    and being forced to engage with a system people find unfun is also frustrating.

    I disagree with the concept that people are "forced" into engaging in certain ways, because that could easily be said to apply to every game. You're always being forced into dealing with the game on its own terms, which sort of devalues the phrase.

    If you feel like you don't jump high enough in Mario then you're being forced to deal with sub-par jump height for the whole game. Running makes you jump higher, but you're forced to run to get that higher jump height which I'm sure ruined the game for somebody.

    FPSs have ammo and in many of them, technically you could run out of everything and be forced into meleeing. Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows. Meanwhile Link Between Worlds has unlimited arrows and bombs, and instead forces you to learn how to manage the stamina system, wait for the bar to refill etc.

    Hitman forces me to be sneaky, I can't effectively run in with guns blazing, especially because rewards are tied to silent, unnoticed, or accidental kills.

    I don't really feel forced into any of the above, though. It's just how the game is.

    Personally I'm glad they're willing to experiment. Some Zelda games are multiplayer, some are more open, some are more linear, some have motion controls, some have limited arrow supplies and some don't. One has a 3 day time limit on losing a lot of what you're carrying. One has a central dungeon you keep going back to again and again, unlocking shortcuts each time. I'm glad they feel like they can be creative and aren't pigeonholed into one formula every time.

    No these are very different arguments.

    I personally feel forced to not engage with a game system that I want to because I can nt find a weapon that will allow me to. I cannot become a swordmaster.

    That bothers me. It does not other people and on some level that's cool. Enjoy what you enjoy.
    I have enjoyed hearing people's engagement with the system and why and how they enjoy it or dislike it. It's been good and I have a new appreciation for the system even though it hasn't magically become something I enjoy. I at least respect it and what it has given a range of players.

    All of that being said this might lead eventually to better systems down the line and I am glad they experimented as well.

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  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows.

    Not true at all. You don't have to use enchanted weapons. You can play the entire game without using bows as well. If you get the bound bow, you have unlimited arrows.

    And in Zelda you don't have to use melee weapons at all, you can play the entire game using just a bow or shield or bombs. But that's not optimal and likely not how most people will play.

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  • Dirk2112Dirk2112 Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    And in Zelda you don't have to use melee weapons at all, you can play the entire game using just a bow or shield or bombs. But that's not optimal and likely not how most people will play.

    I have tried playing Zelda with bombs and arrows only and it isn't very fun. I have played Skyrim as an archer only and a melee only character and had a blast both times. Being an archer in Skyrim is way easier, I will say.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't feel like you need an artificial system to keep you from doing one thing in a game or to divert you to another thing. If the systems are robust enough they should prop themselves up and be enjoyable regardless of other factors.

    I bet without durability the game would be just as fun for those who love it and more fun for those who hate it but we can't turn back time. It's become ingrained into the conversation because of it's existence.

    It is what it is at this point.
    I bet I would still love it without durability, too! But it would be a substantially different game. And if it was somehow "less" fun for me I'd be fine with that, tho it's not like I'd have any frame of reference.

    It would be interesting to be able to compare, tho: I currently really like how durability affects combat and my feelings about combat. That doesn't make your dislike of it wrong, it's just something people have different preferences about. And there are lots of games where I really did not like durability and how it was implemented!

    But it feels like roughly the same complaint could be leveled at the magic meter or bombs or arrows in previous games. If I want to kill every enemy with arrows, why should I be artificially restricted from doing so? Or if I want to play Bomberman? Should every FPS give you unlimited ammo? Okay well actually yes to that last one, except for survival or RE style games.

    And for what it's worth, I sank a hundred hours or so into MH4...U? (It was just MH for me since I didn't play any others.) And yeah, in a game like that, where each weapon has a fairly deep system to it and I learned, like, 2/3 of one and 1/2 of another in those 100 hours, I would have been really annoyed if I couldn't use MY charge blade whenever I wanted. But BotW is such a different game that I feel like even with the durability it's closer to any other Zelda than MH.

    Anyway, again, I mostly just really enjoy talking about things I like, I hope I'm not coming across as overly combative.

    Xerink
  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows.

    Not true at all. You don't have to use enchanted weapons. You can play the entire game without using bows as well. If you get the bound bow, you have unlimited arrows.

    And in Zelda you don't have to use melee weapons at all, you can play the entire game using just a bow or shield or bombs. But that's not optimal and likely not how most people will play.

    that's unfair. "here's the toy you want to use but because you are not using it the right way you have to use something you want to use less."?

    No. I thought we were better than that. That's punitive to the players who are saying they want to engage int he combat more deeply.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
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  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    More lynel shenanigans I found to see how people fight them, are you kidding me????

    holy shit the number of weapon slots that guy has....

    bitch please

    C7YxS8YVwAE5iOs.jpg

    Heh, I have more slots than that. Specifically one more, which is the max...

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  • EntaruEntaru Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    Entaru wrote: »
    I just don't feel like you need an artificial system to keep you from doing one thing in a game or to divert you to another thing. If the systems are robust enough they should prop themselves up and be enjoyable regardless of other factors.

    I bet without durability the game would be just as fun for those who love it and more fun for those who hate it but we can't turn back time. It's become ingrained into the conversation because of it's existence.

    It is what it is at this point.
    I bet I would still love it without durability, too! But it would be a substantially different game. And if it was somehow "less" fun for me I'd be fine with that, tho it's not like I'd have any frame of reference.

    It would be interesting to be able to compare, tho: I currently really like how durability affects combat and my feelings about combat. That doesn't make your dislike of it wrong, it's just something people have different preferences about. And there are lots of games where I really did not like durability and how it was implemented!

    But it feels like roughly the same complaint could be leveled at the magic meter or bombs or arrows in previous games. If I want to kill every enemy with arrows, why should I be artificially restricted from doing so? Or if I want to play Bomberman? Should every FPS give you unlimited ammo? Okay well actually yes to that last one, except for survival or RE style games.

    And for what it's worth, I sank a hundred hours or so into MH4...U? (It was just MH for me since I didn't play any others.) And yeah, in a game like that, where each weapon has a fairly deep system to it and I learned, like, 2/3 of one and 1/2 of another in those 100 hours, I would have been really annoyed if I couldn't use MY charge blade whenever I wanted. But BotW is such a different game that I feel like even with the durability it's closer to any other Zelda than MH.

    Anyway, again, I mostly just really enjoy talking about things I like, I hope I'm not coming across as overly combative.

    No, not combative at all. You make good points.

    I know what is being said and I get the defense of the system. I am just trying to shine some light into the dark corners of the argument against it for what it's worth. there are very real things going on for the people who like it and the dismissal of that gets a bit frustrating. it's mild and only some people are doing it though. and even some of them only out of frustration.

    so I get it. Again. I have spent 1000's of hours in MH and probably 100's defending it's systems. I am not even advocating for the removal of weapon durability. that's a part of what makes this game this game.

    I am more talking about the future and a part of that is trying to say: This messes with some people for a few different reasons. maybe, not remove it, maybe just find a way to lessen that effect so more people can enjoy future masterpieces that have this system. That is where the real heart of the argument is for me.

    Mostly just huntin' monsters.
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  • KriegaffeKriegaffe Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Weapon durability is not an issue for me since...
    - I use attack up potions to get more bang for my buck
    - I snipe the lookouts
    - I use exploding barrels
    - I swing large metal boxes around
    - If my weapon breaks, I throw their cheap weapons at their heads
    - If got a whole swag of elemental arrows (Lizards in particular go down in one shot against their opposite element & I'm getting better at doing 3x shots to stun Lynels

    All that said, I mostly avoid combat unless the enemy camp has a locked chest or I need monster parts for upgrades.

    Kriegaffe on
  • Handsome CostanzaHandsome Costanza RIP Iwata-san..... ...and thanks for the Switch, you magnificent bastard.Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Are we seriously having an item slot dick waving competition? Can we not?
    because I only have like 4 slots.. :(

    It's not what ya got it's how you use it!

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    I do think they were kind of sort of trying to accommodate the sort of thing you're looking for, Entaru, with the whole
    special weapons the blacksmiths can forge for you.

    It might be neat as a sort of late game thing to have some kind of blacksmith who can "learn" weapons from you and either make super durable ones or craft a bunch to stock up. More convenient than going out and hunting down a bunch of them.

    (By the way, just in case, your compendium tells you where to find stuff and you can
    set your sensor to detect specific items.)

  • SniperGuySniperGuy Also known as Dohaeris Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Entaru wrote: »
    SniperGuy wrote: »
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Skyrim forces you to get into the soulstone mechanic to recharge your enchanted weapons, and they also force you to deal with a limited number of arrows.

    Not true at all. You don't have to use enchanted weapons. You can play the entire game without using bows as well. If you get the bound bow, you have unlimited arrows.

    And in Zelda you don't have to use melee weapons at all, you can play the entire game using just a bow or shield or bombs. But that's not optimal and likely not how most people will play.

    that's unfair. "here's the toy you want to use but because you are not using it the right way you have to use something you want to use less."?

    No. I thought we were better than that. That's punitive to the players who are saying they want to engage int he combat more deeply.

    I'm not sure what you're saying here. There are systems in the game. If you voluntarily choose not to engage with one, then you still have other systems you can engage with. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea, but you can do that. But either way there are limits and you have to work around those limits. Part of the reason Zelda works so well with it's durability system is all the other systems working together with it. If this were OOT and enemies dropped weapons and there was durability it wouldn't work at all. But it's very different and was designed around that.

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  • azith28azith28 Registered User regular
    Maz- wrote: »
    azith28 wrote: »
    More lynel shenanigans I found to see how people fight them, are you kidding me????

    holy shit the number of weapon slots that guy has....

    bitch please

    C7YxS8YVwAE5iOs.jpg

    uhh.. watch the video where he changes weapons. his is bigger than yours.

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    This is like a opossum overlord, the alpha-rodent from which all other rodents were wrought. In the beginning there was darkness, dirt, and this thing. God said "Let there be light" and even he jumped when he saw this fucking thing.


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  • Dr. Phibbs McAtheyDr. Phibbs McAthey Registered User regular
    Got all the shrines, reward below:
    God damn guys, I love the Wild tunic. Set bonus blows, unless the master sword beam is just fucking awesome and I never tried it, but otherwise damn I love the look. None of the other Link outfits from my amiibo really feel like they belong on this Link, they feel like Link is just cosplaying his past incarnations. This one just feels right. It's like finally, Link is fully assuming the mantle of the hero. You bet your ass Ganon's going down while I'm wearing this bad boy.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    On the subject of mastering weapon types, is my impression correct that aside from some unique weapons, there are six eight categories and all weapons in those categories behave the same way?
    clubs, 1 and 2 handed
    swords, 1 and 2 handed
    spears, 1 and 2 handed
    boomerangs, 1 and 2 handed

    Uniques:
    The elemental weapons, of course.
    The Wizzrobe rods.
    The Windcleaver's charge attack.
    The vicious sickle?
    The Master Sword's aerial.
    The leaf, how could I forget.

    I meant to test this more extensively over the weekend but got distracted playing the game.

    Surfpossum on
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    i wish i could sell weapons
    i wish i could use this ore for repairing weapons other than a couple of notable exceptions
    finally unlocked the 4th fairy....wow that was unexpected.

    Molybdenum
  • KriegaffeKriegaffe Registered User regular
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    On the subject of mastering weapon types, is my impression correct that aside from some unique weapons, there are six eight categories and all weapons in those categories behave the same way?
    clubs, 1 and 2 handed
    swords, 1 and 2 handed
    spears, 1 and 2 handed
    boomerangs, 1 and 2 handed

    Uniques:
    The elemental weapons, of course.
    The Wizzrobe rods.
    The Windcleaver's charge attack.
    The vicious sickle?
    The Master Sword's aerial.
    The leaf, how could I forget.

    I meant to test this more extensively over the weekend but got distracted playing the game.

    I don't believe I've seen 1-handed spears or 2-handed boomerangs.

    Do the axes behave the same as another type?

  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    Are we seriously having an item slot dick waving competition? Can we not?
    because I only have like 4 slots.. :(

    It's not what ya got it's how you use it!

    Whoever fed you that spoiler nonsense was just trying to spare your feelings. If you don't have three rows for melee weapons, you aren't a real Hylian.

    But seriously, I have three rows unlocked, and I'm at the point where I have to decide which weapon to drop just so I can pick up one with a better or stronger ability. There really does come a point where weapons aren't an issue.

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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Kriegaffe wrote: »
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    On the subject of mastering weapon types, is my impression correct that aside from some unique weapons, there are six eight categories and all weapons in those categories behave the same way?
    clubs, 1 and 2 handed
    swords, 1 and 2 handed
    spears, 1 and 2 handed
    boomerangs, 1 and 2 handed

    Uniques:
    The elemental weapons, of course.
    The Wizzrobe rods.
    The Windcleaver's charge attack.
    The vicious sickle?
    The Master Sword's aerial.
    The leaf, how could I forget.

    I meant to test this more extensively over the weekend but got distracted playing the game.

    I don't believe I've seen 1-handed spears or 2-handed boomerangs.

    Do the axes behave the same as another type?
    I may be misremembering, but I vaguely recall the "throwing spear" being one handed; now I'm doubting myself. Same goes for the big boomerang I currently have.

    I think axes behave the same way as two-handed clubs (control-wise; obviously they cut instead of bash), but I'm not sure.

  • Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited March 20
    Surfpossum wrote: »
    On the subject of mastering weapon types, is my impression correct that aside from some unique weapons, there are six eight categories and all weapons in those categories behave the same way?
    clubs, 1 and 2 handed
    swords, 1 and 2 handed
    spears, 1 and 2 handed
    boomerangs, 1 and 2 handed

    Uniques:
    The elemental weapons, of course.
    The Wizzrobe rods.
    The Windcleaver's charge attack.
    The vicious sickle?
    The Master Sword's aerial.
    The leaf, how could I forget.

    I meant to test this more extensively over the weekend but got distracted playing the game.

    I came across a weapon that looked like Tira's from SoulCalibur.
    It was a circular edged weapon I got from some Yiga clown who dared to attack me.

    EDIT - Officially listed as a "carver". Good old demon carver. Thing had some speed to it.

    http://orcz.com/Breath_of_the_Wild:_Weapons_List

    Capt Howdy on
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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    Hrm, interesting, thanks. Looks like I was wrong about the throwing spear being one-handed.

    I wonder if the subtypes listed there are accurate and if all weapons in a subtype (aside from special ones) have the same controls/combos/etc.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    I really wish there was a way to spawn a blood moon

    I'm trying to do the shrine that requires one and after burning through all 58 of my flint trying to get one still nada

    Really glad I saved before trying to do this >_<

    Sig.jpg
  • AbsoluteZeroAbsoluteZero Registered User regular
    I don't get all this crying about weapon durability. I'm fucking swimming in weapons. Everywhere I go I leave a trail of weapons in my wake because I don't pick most of them up anymore after murdering whatever wielded them. I'm not even that far into the game.

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  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    Dirk2112 wrote: »
    Renzo wrote: »
    Getting rid of weapon durability would make the combat less interesting.

    The combat is completely uninteresting because of the durability system. I avoid it unless necessary. It is more fun to explore and fly around then it is to fight. The boss fights are pretty fun, but fighting bobokins and lizalfos is a waste of time since their loot isn't great and they respawn during a blood moon.

    In other Zelda games I killed stuff just because it was fun to kill stuff.

    I don't understand how any extra mechanic can make it uninteresting? that just doesn't follow to me. annoying, tedious, not-worth-the-time/durablity cost... any of those things I can understand feeling. but uninteresting? because there's more stuff to manage?

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  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited March 20
    I think boomerangs are hilarious. Especially when you miss catching one, which I do often, sometimes on purpose.

    Edit: My dream is to one day miss catching it causing it to hit an enemy standing behind me, like a kung fu movie.

    since I'm taking up a slot in my inventory out of fear of not seeing it again, I really oguht to just start trying to use it. maybe I'll not catch it and lose it and I won't feel as bad as just dropping it.

    once an hour I am it a spot where I am paralyzed by choosing what item to take. and it's because I have great weapons overflowing my inventory but then there are some that I just kinda like :D

    edit - but meteor rod > fire rod. booooooooooooom.

    Variable on
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  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Boomerangs are super easy to catch, just mash the A button.

    They're just not worth using otherwise though. Unless there's that one situation where they totally shine that I don't know about or haven't thought of, which might be possible. But it's a faff to aim them, and they don't do any extra damage or anything to make the hassle worth it.

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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  • SurfpossumSurfpossum A nonentity trying to preserve the anonymity he so richly deserves.Registered User regular
    I've used boomerangs two or three times to start a fight/after backing up a bit in the middle of one. I liked it, and the higher end ones do decent damage (and can hit multiple things). My method was basically to get a few hits in at range and then use it or another weapon to melee until I had some space.

    I also didn't realize there were two levels of elemental rods until I went on a picture buying spree, so I never bothered to pick them up. I had a sadness upon that realization.

  • UncleSporkyUncleSporky Registered User regular
    edited March 21
    Ok as mentioned earlier, I have performed a test! A test of strength and might! A test to see how many weapons you get from fighting regular enemies and just using whatever drops!

    I know there was already some math done on damage and health but I wanted to do a real world test myself to see how things would shake out.

    I call it UncleSporky's Extravagant Weapon Survival Experiment!

    - no buffs of any sort from armor or food
    - no alternate attack methods, no bombs, no throwing rocks, no barrels, no smacking enemies with magnesis
    - no special attacks, no downward stab from above, no charging up a special swing, no sneakstrikes, no flurries...just basic Y button attacks
    - arrows allowed for flying enemies and extreme situations
    - my own health/armor does not matter, this is a test of weaponry, not how much damage I took or how much food I ate, no record of food I found etc.
    - I am at endgame so my experience may differ from some! I get really good enchanted weapons more often, but also some pretty tough enemies too!

    The test is traveling a specific path:

    DC4rszw.png
    The road to Zora's Domain

    I chose this path because I knew it was long (longer than it looks), pretty consistent in being a series of enemies instead of just random wilderness, varied, and something that most people find reasonably early in the game so most should be familiar with it.

    It turns out that this is a bad example of what you can expect from general combat and raiding enemy camps...this area is heavily designed with enemy archers in mind, and many of the melee enemies don't even have weapons! Often you will find more melee weapons than I found in this run.

    I started by throwing away all my weapons, bows and shields. For a starting weapon, I knew where a Soldier's Broadsword (14 attack) always spawns on the Great Plateau. Anyone could reasonably begin a trial of this sort with this weapon after a blood moon.

    Here is my full journal of events:
    I started at the end of Ingo Bridge.

    Shortly came across a regular lizalfos (50 HP for future reference). I uh, accidentally killed it in 2 hits with a certain weapon because I forgot to equip the Soldier's Broadsword. Whoops. Off to a great start. He didn't drop anything anyway, so I equipped the right weapon and carried on. We'll say there was one less enemy in this challenge.

    One regular lizalfos by himself...4 hits to kill with the broadsword. He dropped 5 arrows. On the ground I found a Traveler's Bow (5 attack) and a Traveler's Sword (5 attack).

    Another regular lizalfos, 4 hits to kill, and he dropped 5 arrows.

    Found another Traveler's Bow lying on the ground up the path.

    There were a lot of Octoroks (8 HP) in this area, but I ran past all of them. I could've shot them with the bow and arrows I'd picked up, but it wasn't necessary.

    Another regular lizalfos, 4 hits to kill.

    The path veered right, but up the hill a little past the lizalfos was an enemy camp. It contained 2 lizalfos and 1 blue lizalfos (120 HP for future reference). I killed one of the regular lizalfos in 4 hits and he dropped 5 arrows and the Lizal Boomerang (14 attack) he had been carrying. 7 hits on the blue lizalfos finally broke the Soldier's Broadsword, and I switched to the Traveler's Sword. 2 more hits killed him. He dropped his Boko Spear (2 attack). It took 10 hits with the sword to kill the other regular lizalfos, who dropped 5 arrows and the Soldier's Claymore (20 attack) he was carrying.

    Looting this camp, I found:
    3x Boko Spear by the fire, with bass roasting on them
    Leaning against a log, Lizal Bow (14 attack), Lizal Tri-Boomerang (53 attack with Attack Up+17), and Steel Lizal Shield (35 defense with Durability Up+). I will not to use this OP boomerang against regular enemies, since this would be unfair to people attempting this earlier in the game.

    Next up the path, one of the biggest challenges: 7 lizalfos up on watch towers armed with lightning arrows!

    As I was trying to figure out how best to approach this area, they accidentally killed one of their own with a lightning blast. I didn't intend to use any methods like this to help me through combat, but it was kind of inevitable, there were so many arrows flying everywhere. He dropped 5 arrows and his Lizal Bow. Another one had also taken some lightning damage and went down in 2 hits, where I got another 10 arrows and Lizal Bow. 2 more hits on another one and I broke the Traveler's Sword. 8 more hits on the same one killed him with a Boko Spear, and I got his Lizal Bow and 5 more arrows. 4 hits on another one broke a Boko Spear, at which point he was killed by one of his friends' arrows, giving me another Lizal Bow and 5 arrows. I found a Tree Branch (2 attack) on the ground and decided to use it on another Lizalfos, it broke in 4 hits...and I broke another Boko Spear on him in 12 hits, finally finishing him off with 7 more Boko Spear hits. I got his Lizal Bow and 10 arrows. 5 more hits on another one broke a Boko Spear, 12 hits with another Boko Spear that broke, and finally one last hit with the standard Lizal Boomerang to kill him, gaining another Lizal Bow and 5 arrows. Finally killed the last one with 4 hits from the boomerang, getting yet another Lizal Bow and 5 arrows. Scoured the area and only found another Tree Branch. Phew!

    The path veered into a cave. I used one of the Lizal Bows to one-shot 7 electric keese (1 HP).

    Next was another challenging situation...2 regular lizalfos, and one badass silver lizalfos (864 HP!). There were explosive barrels at the top of the hill that I could've used, but I did not!

    4 hits withe the Lizal Boomerang killed each of the regular lizalfos (so 8 hits total). They dropped 5 arrows. For the silver lizalfos, I thought it was fair to switch to the high power Lizal Tri-Boomerang, since it's an endgame item for an endgame enemy. It took 17 hits to kill him, and he dropped 10 arrows. I switched back to the regular Lizal Boomerang.

    Traveling further...encountered a lizalfos, 3 more hits broke the Lizal Boomerang which killed him...it took 3 instead of 4 because the breaking hit dealt double damage as usual. He had a small camp with 4x Boko Spear roasting bass on them.

    Met another lizalfos. 12 hits with a Boko Spear broke it, 4 hits with the Tree Branch broke it, and 7 more hits with a Boko Spear killed him. He dropped nothing.

    Another lizalfos...5 hits with the Boko Spear broke it...I accidentally knocked him into some water below me and he wouldn't jump out, so I was forced to kill him with 2 arrow shots. He had been carrying a Lizal Spear (7 attack), and had a small camp containing another Lizal Spear, a Zora Spear (9 attack), and a Korok leaf (1 attack).

    Next was a somewhat dangerous area with 3 lizalfos and 1 blue lizalfos. 2 of them were lightning archers.

    7 hits with a Boko Spear broke it, 12 more with another Boko Spear broke it, and finally 2 hits with a Lizal Spear killed one of the regular lizalfos. He dropped 10 arrows and the Lizal Boomerang he had been using. 8 hits with the Lizal Spear killed another one, who had been using a Lizal Bow and 10 arrows. I dropped one of the Traveler's Bows to be able to carry this upgrade, not that I would need it. The blue lizalfos took some friendly fire from the archer...7 hits with the Lizal Spear broke it, and 4 hits with another Lizal Spear finished him off. He dropped 10 arrows and the Lizal Forked Boomerang (24 attack) and Reinforced Lizal Shield (22 defense) he had been carrying.

    As I was attacking the last archer lizalfos (8 hits killed him), I made him drop his Lizal Bow and 5 arrows, and went and claimed it (dropping another Traveler's Bow for it). This made him angry, and he ran up a small hill to claim a weapon he knew was there, and I followed. This was another camp with another lizalfos and blue lizalfos.

    7 hits with the Lizal Spear broke it, and 8 hits with the Zora Spear killed the blue lizalfos there, who dropped his Lizal Forked Boomerang and Reinforced Lizal Shield. 6 more hits with the Zora spear killed the other lizalfos, who dropped another Lizal Bow and 10 arrows.

    Leaning up against some logs, this camp contained:
    Royal Claymore (52 attack with Durability Up+)
    Steel Lizal Shield (35 defense with Durability Up+)
    Lizal Shield (15 defense)
    Lizal Bow
    Lizal Tri-Boomerang (56 attack with Attack Up+20)


    Isolated down a small path was another lizalfos, who was killed with 6 hits from the Zora Spear and dropped 10 arrows.

    Below me I saw a small pool with 2 chests in the water, I traveled down to them and magnesis'd them out of the pool to see what was inside. I realize most of this has been about fighting enemies for their weapons, but finding stuff out in the environment is important too, and a natural part of the game. Inside was 1 ice arrow and a Silverscale Spear (12 attack with Durability Up+).

    Next was a small plateau with an electric wizzrobe (150 HP)! It took 7 arrows to kill him, some of them were critical hits right in the face, though I missed a couple shots. During the fight he spawned an electric chuchu (12 HP) which I also killed with an arrow. He dropped a Lightning Rod (5 attack), and had a small camp with a Traveler's Sword, Wooden Shield (2 defense), and Forked Lizal Spear (18 attack).

    Finally as I reached the home stretch, there were two separate encounters with moblins (56 HP), which both died to 7 hits from the Zora Spear, and together I got 2x Moblin Spear (4 attack).

    Just before the long bridge into my destination, I found a Woodcutter's Axe (3 attack).

    And finally, arriving at my destination I found a Zora Sword (15 attack) and Silver Shield (18 defense)!

    So to sum everything up...

    - I killed 37 enemies. 7 were keese that were killed with arrows, and another 2 were special encounters also killed with arrows.

    - Starting with 1 weapon, found an additional 31 melee weapons, 14 bows, and 7 shields.

    - Broke 13 weapons including my starting one. I feel like this number is a bit inflated since many of the broken weapons were terrible ones that didn't deal much damage and are known for having low durability...if I'd fought with my better weapons, fewer would have broken.

    - Gained 140 arrows, and spent ~15 arrows.

    Proof of my adventure:

    Beginning
    lkNxou9.png

    End
    542J7Zq.png

    I want to stress this was fighting in a very single-minded way, not using any advantages of the environment, bombs, special attacks etc. I could've shot some of the archers in the face. Could've done a sneakstrike or two. But this was the most basic form of Y button fighting you can do, being extra-wasteful, and I still came out that far ahead.

    As I said, and as my account illustrates, this was not a particularly good area to do this sort of thing in. Lots of archers and lots of guys who dropped nothing. But if you want to say that for some reason this was a bountiful area to perform this sort of test in, well, you're in luck, because you can go here and do this too! If you find yourself constantly running out of weapons, breaking weapons, just replacing what you break, apparently this is one place in the game you can go to stock up. Come back every blood moon and you'll fill your inventory.

    But honestly I feel like this has been my experience for almost the entire game.

    Doing this was fun. I recommend that other people try it - save your game, drop everything but one weapon, and go out and try to restock!

    UncleSporky on
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