There have been renewed calls for a border poll from Sinn Féin but I don't think anyone is taking them seriously yet.
It is incredibly frustrating that the issues surrounding NI are simply being ignored though. Unlike the rest of the UK we do actually have a border to consider after all. It's clear that May and co have given little to no thought on the issue, instead relying on projections of "sure it'll be alright". It's the same attitude of frank dismissal and arrogance that arguably led to the second attempt at a scots independence referendum being on the cards. It's going to be one hell of a reality check when they go up against the EU and find that smear campaigns and demands in the daily mail don't actually have an effect.
Very little of this has been thought through. This will have massive ramifications throughout the country but the government doesn't want to look weak (and potentially lose seats to UKIP) so presses on regardless. Any questions are batted away with a "we can't talk about that" or "we will sort it out during the negotiations".
It has been nearly a year since the referendum, more than enough time for analysis, research etc. Surely somebody, somewhere could give us a good use case for leaving the EU by now. Something the government could use. something better than "everything's gonna be alright". I mean, I love Bob Marley as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean he can dictate policy.
There have been renewed calls for a border poll from Sinn Féin but I don't think anyone is taking them seriously yet.
It is incredibly frustrating that the issues surrounding NI are simply being ignored though. Unlike the rest of the UK we do actually have a border to consider after all. It's clear that May and co have given little to no thought on the issue, instead relying on projections of "sure it'll be alright". It's the same attitude of frank dismissal and arrogance that arguably led to the second attempt at a scots independence referendum being on the cards. It's going to be one hell of a reality check when they go up against the EU and find that smear campaigns and demands in the daily mail don't actually have an effect.
Very little of this has been thought through. This will have massive ramifications throughout the country but the government doesn't want to look weak (and potentially lose seats to UKIP) so presses on regardless. Any questions are batted away with a "we can't talk about that" or "we will sort it out during the negotiations".
It has been nearly a year since the referendum, more than enough time for analysis, research etc. Surely somebody, somewhere could give us a good use case for leaving the EU by now. Something the government could use. something better than "everything's gonna be alright". I mean, I love Bob Marley as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean he can dictate policy.
Honestly, anyone supporting Brexit should have to put money where their fucking mouth is. You want Brexit? Okay. Present a plan, a good one, on how to deal with it.
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Very little of this has been thought through. This will have massive ramifications throughout the country but the government doesn't want to look weak (and potentially lose seats to UKIP) so presses on regardless. Any questions are batted away with a "we can't talk about that" or "we will sort it out during the negotiations".
It has been nearly a year since the referendum, more than enough time for analysis, research etc. Surely somebody, somewhere could give us a good use case for leaving the EU by now. Something the government could use. something better than "everything's gonna be alright". I mean, I love Bob Marley as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean he can dictate policy.
I still don't understand how this is considered a significant threat/fear; for the past however many years they've had... one MP in the house of commons and a token gaggle of hypocritical protesters in the EU parliament. Also they can't hold onto a consistent leader to save their life. Farage seems to be the only "gravitas" possessed by the party (movement?), and this largely seems to be the result of being propped up by media (over)exposure.
Granted I'm saying this as a USian, but it seems like UKIP are only a political/electoral problem because people insist on them being a problem rather than them carrying any actual grassroots cachet.
I feel like even a more competent Labour leader would have trouble here, because most Labour constituencies outside of London were Leave-supporting, right? If Labour went all-in on Remain, that's how they'd lose those Constituencies to UKIP and basically become the London + College Towns party.
Short of a coordinated campaign to reinvent Labour as the Remain party, they're kind of stuck on this mealy-mouthed "Definitely Brexit, but maybe Brexit with dignity" stance, even if a better leader might be more elegant about it.
Of course the Lib Dems, previously consigned to irrelevancy with the 2015 electoral fallout, seem to be organizing around this idea and are eating the moderate/center-left Labour's lunch on it. As previously stated I'm curious to see how much longer Mayor Sadiq Kahn remains a Labour member, because he's the only gain for the party worth writing home about post 2015 and Corbyn's rapidly diminishing time as leader. Not that I necessarily see him going Lib Dem, but I could see him going independent in a re-election a la Zac Goldsmith (assuming most Londoners consider his tenure a success).
It'd be nice to think that anybody thinking of moving to Ukip from Labour would be dissuaded by their local Ukip candidate claiming that gay people cause floods and women should be kept in camps and forced to bake cakes eight hours a day, even if they did vote Leave
It'd also be nice to think that people wouldn't vote Leave in the first place
I've given up underestimating the strength of "but Johnny Foreigner!" in the minds of the electorate
It'd be nice to think that anybody thinking of moving to Ukip from Labour would be dissuaded by their local Ukip candidate claiming that gay people cause floods and women should be kept in camps and forced to bake cakes eight hours a day, even if they did vote Leave
It'd also be nice to think that people wouldn't vote Leave in the first place
I've given up underestimating the strength of "but Johnny Foreigner!" in the minds of the electorate
The problem is that, that stuff doesn't get much coverage on an individual level. Like I don't doubt a member of UKIP said that, but I don't know who said it and even if you showed me a picture, I still wouldn't. So voters default to the overriding policy, get rid of everyone who isn't me.
It's a problem with the system - why knew about Jeremy Corbyn before it was too late? Or John McDonnell. It's only afterwards you hear about them praising the IRA and the like.
The Daily Mail already running stories, warning of Scotland having to go to the back of the queue and Project Fear-style economic crash predictions because of independence, all without a shred of self-aware has made my brain do a hard reset.
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GatorAn alligator in ScotlandRegistered Userregular
The Daily Mail already running stories, warning of Scotland having to go to the back of the queue and Project Fear-style economic crash predictions because of independence, all without a shred of self-aware has made my brain do a hard reset.
Also, now that England has left the EU, don't they realize that Scotland (and NI) are now VASTLY more important than they were before to England? Before Brexit, Scotland leaving England was small potatoes for England. Who had access to the whole EU market, and would still get access to the scottish markets even if Scotland left. Now? Scotland is critical to England, and if Scotland leaves England and gets into the EU then England stands to lose access to Scottish markets.
Brexit has changed the entire equation. Before Brexit, Scottish independance was a bit foolish, and would be an annoyance but not crippling to England. Now the entire situation is reversed. Scotland has no incentive to remain loyal, its departure to enter the EU would be an annoyance to it domestically but a disaster for England.
Hell, most of the banks would just up and leave to go to Scotland and Edinburgh etc.
The Daily Mail already running stories, warning of Scotland having to go to the back of the queue and Project Fear-style economic crash predictions because of independence, all without a shred of self-aware has made my brain do a hard reset.
Also, now that England has left the EU, don't they realize that Scotland (and NI) are now VASTLY more important than they were before to England? Before Brexit, Scotland leaving England was small potatoes for England. Who had access to the whole EU market, and would still get access to the scottish markets even if Scotland left. Now? Scotland is critical to England, and if Scotland leaves England and gets into the EU then England stands to lose access to Scottish markets.
Brexit has changed the entire equation. Before Brexit, Scottish independance was a bit foolish, and would be an annoyance but not crippling to England. Now the entire situation is reversed. Scotland has no incentive to remain loyal, its departure to enter the EU would be an annoyance to it domestically but a disaster for England.
Hell, most of the banks would just up and leave to go to Scotland and Edinburgh etc.
Wouldn't be quite that optimistic. The Scottish Market is still 1/11 the size of England, and no matter how you slice it Scotland is looking at some time outside the EU. If the banks flee, I've heard talk of Frankfurt or Dublin being their destination of choice, what with having that uninterrupted EU access.
The Daily Mail already running stories, warning of Scotland having to go to the back of the queue and Project Fear-style economic crash predictions because of independence, all without a shred of self-aware has made my brain do a hard reset.
Also, now that England has left the EU, don't they realize that Scotland (and NI) are now VASTLY more important than they were before to England? Before Brexit, Scotland leaving England was small potatoes for England. Who had access to the whole EU market, and would still get access to the scottish markets even if Scotland left. Now? Scotland is critical to England, and if Scotland leaves England and gets into the EU then England stands to lose access to Scottish markets.
Brexit has changed the entire equation. Before Brexit, Scottish independance was a bit foolish, and would be an annoyance but not crippling to England. Now the entire situation is reversed. Scotland has no incentive to remain loyal, its departure to enter the EU would be an annoyance to it domestically but a disaster for England.
Hell, most of the banks would just up and leave to go to Scotland and Edinburgh etc.
I presume that most MP's are smart enough to know this. I also assume they're either cavalier or cowed enough not to care.
The Daily Mail already running stories, warning of Scotland having to go to the back of the queue and Project Fear-style economic crash predictions because of independence, all without a shred of self-aware has made my brain do a hard reset.
My own MP makes a point of tweeting every single time he sees the "queue" thing repeated that there is no queue
Countries do not join the EU in the order in which they become candidates
Edit: re the above, it is really quite difficult to construct an argument against indyref 2 that doesn't sound hypocritical in the mouth of a brexiter
The best of them rely on an appeal to the link between Scotland and the UK being different in nature to the link between the UK and the EU, which I don't think is a sure bet in this particular argument
I mean, given the option of having to choose to keep either your UK citizenship or your EU citizenship, which would you go for?
In the last indyref, I always figured that if I was Scottish I'd have voted to stay because of the economic uncertainty Scotland would face without the rest of the UK and its stable ties to the EU and established trade deals etc.
This time round if I was Scottish, I'd be pissed off and considering voting to leave the UK.
I can't blame the Scots, even though I'd like them to selfishly stay with us.
In the last indyref, I always figured that if I was Scottish I'd have voted to stay because of the economic uncertainty Scotland would face without the rest of the UK and its stable ties to the EU and established trade deals etc.
This time round if I was Scottish, I'd be pissed off and considering voting to leave the UK.
I can't blame the Scots, even though I'd like them to selfishly stay with us.
Yeah, before I wanted them to stay cause I like those guys. That feeling remains, but is overshadowed by the thought "I totally can't blame you if you want to save yourselves"
Wouldn't be quite that optimistic. The Scottish Market is still 1/11 the size of England, and no matter how you slice it Scotland is looking at some time outside the EU. If the banks flee, I've heard talk of Frankfurt or Dublin being their destination of choice, what with having that uninterrupted EU access.
I agree. Why move to a Scotland that might leave the UK and may one day rejoin the EU when you can go to Dublin which has no such uncertainty? Scots need to realise we are leaving the EU and things will not go back to the way they are now any time soon.
Reading that rUK should place no priority on good trade relations of a future independent Scotland makes me question how the people doing said reports view us now especially considering how this situation came around and those same peoples part in it. I was going to liken it to an abusive relationship but it's nothing new coming from the Daily "Scots are a bunch of scroungers who can't survive without good ol' England" Mail.
The problem with Dublin is Ireland's massive housing shortage. We'd love to have your banking industry but we've nowhere to put their employees.
Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
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Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Some of the conversations I overhear on public transport these days (regarding politics) are fucking fascinating.
If you're not on the internet, you are totally voting in the fucking DARK in the 21st century. I feel really sorry for them.
They're being led around like mules with owners (leaders) that don't care if they live or die, being force fed what effectively amounts to propaganda.
The problem with Dublin is Ireland's massive housing shortage. We'd love to have your banking industry but we've nowhere to put their employees.
You would quickly find that housing shortages for well off people buying city flats which generate lots of profit for landlords and property developers are mysteriously much more swiftly resolved than housing shortages for everyone else
As for the NI border poll, May has characteristically sided entirely with the DUP and ruled it out. Even if it isn't a serious issue right now, it really is one of those times when giving a non-answer or just plain saying nothing would have been the better response. There are already questions about just how impartial the tories are when they seem to side with the DUP an awful lot. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39272433
The Scottish government is preparing to hold private talks about rejoining the single market without becoming a full member of the EU.
Senior figures in the SNP believe that membership of the European Economic Area (EEA) along the lines of Norway’s arrangements with the EU would be financially and politically viable if a second referendum went in favour of independence from the UK.
The possibility of Scotland being fast-tracked into the EU was contested during the 2014 referendum and party officials now accept that a looser arrangement in which it was inside the single market but outside the bloc may be more feasible, without ruling out the possibility of full membership later.
Although membership of the EEA would still have to be agreed by the EU, it is considered to be more palatable to other member states worried about separatist movements in their own countries.
The idea of a deal similar to Norway’s was revealed in January after the Scottish government published its proposals for Brexit, arguing for continued single market access regardless of the new relationship between the remainder of the UK and the EU.
Most of Westminster and Holyrood assumed that the paper applied only in the context of a devolved Scotland, but the plan has been under consideration for an independent Scotland.
Under the new approach, Scotland would seek membership of the European Free Trade Association (Efta) and through that become part of the EEA.
Edinburgh would pay into the EU budget and have free movement of people within member states, but no say over regulations. It would also be outside the European customs union, making the continuation of an open border for trade between Scotland and the rest of the UK more viable.
Efta was set up in 1960 as a free trade zone for countries on a pathway to EU membership — Britain was a founding member — but is in practice now a separate free trading bloc which can negotiate collective trade agreements.
Three of Efta’s four members — Norway, Iceland and Liechtenstein — are members of the EEA, making them part of the single market with minor exemptions. Efta’s fourth member, Switzerland, is part of the single market on a separate bilateral basis.
Accession to Efta is more straightforward than joining the EU, but it is not certain that Scotland would then be allowed in to the EEA.
All the lines Davis is coming out with at the Brexit Select Committee this morning add up to a department that seems to have no idea of the scale of the task it's taken on.
Now, being generous, I would say that it obviously is a massive task and they haven't actually started the official process yet - so maybe there's no way to answer these questions accurately. But assessing the impact of not having a deal in place? That should be a pretty urgent priority, I'd have thought.
Except that of course we'll get a deal, the best deal, no-one's ever seen a better deal
What exactly is the mindset here? Is this merely arrogance, denial, laziness? Have they done all the work but don't want to release that info to the public because of how bad the results are? Do they not care since they won't be effected to a degree the ordinary citizen will be?
What are they even doing at that department? Just spending months drinking brandy, smoking cigars, and patting each other on the back for how awesome they (think they) are?
What are they even doing at that department? Just spending months drinking UK brandy, smoking UK cigars, and patting each other on the back for how awesome they (think they) are?
My assumption is that they absolutely have done the assessment, that it's a bad outcome, but as it's their fallback position they don't want to reveal the economic damage.
My assumption is that they absolutely have done the assessment, that it's a bad outcome, but as it's their fallback position they don't want to reveal the economic damage.
Covering for a bad outcome by saying you haven't done the assessment seems like a suboptimal strategy
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Very little of this has been thought through. This will have massive ramifications throughout the country but the government doesn't want to look weak (and potentially lose seats to UKIP) so presses on regardless. Any questions are batted away with a "we can't talk about that" or "we will sort it out during the negotiations".
It has been nearly a year since the referendum, more than enough time for analysis, research etc. Surely somebody, somewhere could give us a good use case for leaving the EU by now. Something the government could use. something better than "everything's gonna be alright". I mean, I love Bob Marley as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean he can dictate policy.
Honestly, anyone supporting Brexit should have to put money where their fucking mouth is. You want Brexit? Okay. Present a plan, a good one, on how to deal with it.
I still don't understand how this is considered a significant threat/fear; for the past however many years they've had... one MP in the house of commons and a token gaggle of hypocritical protesters in the EU parliament. Also they can't hold onto a consistent leader to save their life. Farage seems to be the only "gravitas" possessed by the party (movement?), and this largely seems to be the result of being propped up by media (over)exposure.
Granted I'm saying this as a USian, but it seems like UKIP are only a political/electoral problem because people insist on them being a problem rather than them carrying any actual grassroots cachet.
Of course the Lib Dems, previously consigned to irrelevancy with the 2015 electoral fallout, seem to be organizing around this idea and are eating the moderate/center-left Labour's lunch on it. As previously stated I'm curious to see how much longer Mayor Sadiq Kahn remains a Labour member, because he's the only gain for the party worth writing home about post 2015 and Corbyn's rapidly diminishing time as leader. Not that I necessarily see him going Lib Dem, but I could see him going independent in a re-election a la Zac Goldsmith (assuming most Londoners consider his tenure a success).
It'd also be nice to think that people wouldn't vote Leave in the first place
I've given up underestimating the strength of "but Johnny Foreigner!" in the minds of the electorate
The problem is that, that stuff doesn't get much coverage on an individual level. Like I don't doubt a member of UKIP said that, but I don't know who said it and even if you showed me a picture, I still wouldn't. So voters default to the overriding policy, get rid of everyone who isn't me.
They don't just give a fuck
Not impossible. I think "it's okay when it's for something I want" has been pretty solidly embraced all round the joint.
Also, now that England has left the EU, don't they realize that Scotland (and NI) are now VASTLY more important than they were before to England? Before Brexit, Scotland leaving England was small potatoes for England. Who had access to the whole EU market, and would still get access to the scottish markets even if Scotland left. Now? Scotland is critical to England, and if Scotland leaves England and gets into the EU then England stands to lose access to Scottish markets.
Brexit has changed the entire equation. Before Brexit, Scottish independance was a bit foolish, and would be an annoyance but not crippling to England. Now the entire situation is reversed. Scotland has no incentive to remain loyal, its departure to enter the EU would be an annoyance to it domestically but a disaster for England.
Hell, most of the banks would just up and leave to go to Scotland and Edinburgh etc.
Wouldn't be quite that optimistic. The Scottish Market is still 1/11 the size of England, and no matter how you slice it Scotland is looking at some time outside the EU. If the banks flee, I've heard talk of Frankfurt or Dublin being their destination of choice, what with having that uninterrupted EU access.
I presume that most MP's are smart enough to know this. I also assume they're either cavalier or cowed enough not to care.
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gat damn Nicola goin in
I think basic argument would be objecting to right of scots to hold referendum is hypocritical and the angle many Brexit types are taking, absurdly
basic idea that self determination by reasonably large groups is OK seems very sensible, and meshes with how most view eg Kurds or Falklands
I think most are less perturbed by idea of scots leaving simply because it would be a fuck you to the brexiters
My own MP makes a point of tweeting every single time he sees the "queue" thing repeated that there is no queue
Countries do not join the EU in the order in which they become candidates
Edit: re the above, it is really quite difficult to construct an argument against indyref 2 that doesn't sound hypocritical in the mouth of a brexiter
The best of them rely on an appeal to the link between Scotland and the UK being different in nature to the link between the UK and the EU, which I don't think is a sure bet in this particular argument
I mean, given the option of having to choose to keep either your UK citizenship or your EU citizenship, which would you go for?
This time round if I was Scottish, I'd be pissed off and considering voting to leave the UK.
I can't blame the Scots, even though I'd like them to selfishly stay with us.
I hope I am never forced to answer that question.
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Yeah, before I wanted them to stay cause I like those guys. That feeling remains, but is overshadowed by the thought "I totally can't blame you if you want to save yourselves"
I agree. Why move to a Scotland that might leave the UK and may one day rejoin the EU when you can go to Dublin which has no such uncertainty? Scots need to realise we are leaving the EU and things will not go back to the way they are now any time soon.
Reading that rUK should place no priority on good trade relations of a future independent Scotland makes me question how the people doing said reports view us now especially considering how this situation came around and those same peoples part in it. I was going to liken it to an abusive relationship but it's nothing new coming from the Daily "Scots are a bunch of scroungers who can't survive without good ol' England" Mail.
If you're not on the internet, you are totally voting in the fucking DARK in the 21st century. I feel really sorry for them.
They're being led around like mules with owners (leaders) that don't care if they live or die, being force fed what effectively amounts to propaganda.
You would quickly find that housing shortages for well off people buying city flats which generate lots of profit for landlords and property developers are mysteriously much more swiftly resolved than housing shortages for everyone else
Funny that
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-39272433
From The Times:
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Holy fucking christ
I had assumed when they said "we'll walk away if the deal is bad", that they had checked what could happen if we do.
I
just
Fucking hell
Is the thinking of these zealously daft wankers
There's a whole lot more in that thread...
Now, being generous, I would say that it obviously is a massive task and they haven't actually started the official process yet - so maybe there's no way to answer these questions accurately. But assessing the impact of not having a deal in place? That should be a pretty urgent priority, I'd have thought.
Except that of course we'll get a deal, the best deal, no-one's ever seen a better deal
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Covering for a bad outcome by saying you haven't done the assessment seems like a suboptimal strategy
70% of under 25s and 30% of over 65s
imagine if you weighed this stuff by the amount of years that people have to live with the consequences of their actions