As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

The reign of the Captain Americas?

13»

Posts

  • Dex DynamoDex Dynamo Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I said it before, maybe on the forums, but I'd like to see cap's mantle go to a whole bundle of people. Kind of like Reign of the supermen, only much bigger, much more appropriate. After all, as has been said, there are a LOT of people out there fit to take the mantle.

    Winter Soldier.
    Patriot.
    Hawkeye.
    Falcon.
    USAgent.
    Josiah X.
    Jack Flag(Yeah, I know he's crippled, doesn't mean he can't be a bitching hero).

    I want to see Capt. America become a movement, rather than just one man trying to live up to the mantle.

    Dex Dynamo on
  • DondumsDondums Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dex Dynamo wrote: »
    Jack Flag(Yeah, I know he's crippled, doesn't mean he can't be a bitching hero).

    Jimmyvulmer.gif

    Cripples can do anything.

    Dondums on
    internet
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    The only person I'd add would be Sharon Carter.

    The thing is that I like all those characters as they are, and if any of them put on the Captain America outfit they'd just become simple derivatives. Granted these are characters with strong connections to Captain America who are clearly subordinate to him, but they're still characters with personalities of their own that can do a lot more than simply "filling in". It'd be a little disrespectful to turn any one of them into replacements, in the same way turning Nightwing into Batman 2 would be kind of a crime (And superheroes hate crime!).

    What I'd like to see is Captain America becoming a symbol, both for individuals and for his supporting characters as a group. And make Sharon Carter the leader because she probably knew him better than the rest, and the conflict between her desire to honor him and her hand in his death would lead to some interesting emotional turmoil while fueling any actions she might make in his name.

    Hooraydiation on
    Home-1.jpg
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Shouldn't Sharon Carter be more concerned with figuring out why she killed Cap? And if she discovers that she was conditioned by the Red Skull, shouldn't her focus then be on disabling that conditioning?

    I'd like to see them leave the Captain America role empty for a bit until they can bring in someone completely new to be Captain America. Someone who just grows into the role, or someone that the government creates with a new super-soldier serum, but who ends up turning against his government handlers to take on the heritage of the role. I think they need an entirely new person to take up the role, because using a current character to replace Cap would feel untrue to any of the likely current characters.

    Briareos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It's pretty much a given that Red Skull is going to be covered in the Captain America title, and that anyone who becomes the focus of the book in Cap's absence (just as Sharon Carter has seemed to) will end up facing him. Regardless of whether or not she's picked as an official or unofficial successor by Marvel, there's no doubt that the coming arc is going to have to follow her (and Falcon and Winter Soldier, if the preview for #26 is any indication). If she's picked, then it's that much more convenient since the conclusion of the Red Skull arc won't be followed by an immediate change in direction, tone, and voice.

    Replacing well-established characters with brand new versions is always a dicey move. It'd be interesting, though, to see what kind of Captain America modern times would form. But how likable could he be?

    Hooraydiation on
    Home-1.jpg
  • DraXXXenDraXXXen Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Can we just get the Red Skull to clone Steve's body again and transfer his mind into it (he's done it before as I recall), then...VIOLA! Cap is back, but no one knows its really the Skull and Tony really does not want to engage in combat with him (even if it is the Skull) just based on how it would look to the other heroes.

    DraXXXen on
    donutMachine.jpg
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm calling it now, Cap returns in issue #50 of the current run via Cosmic Cube.

    Balefuego on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It's pretty much a given that Red Skull is going to be covered in the Captain America title, and that anyone who becomes the focus of the book in Cap's absence (just as Sharon Carter has seemed to) will end up facing him. Regardless of whether or not she's picked as an official or unofficial successor by Marvel, there's no doubt that the coming arc is going to have to follow her (and Falcon and Winter Soldier, if the preview for #26 is any indication). If she's picked, then it's that much more convenient since the conclusion of the Red Skull arc won't be followed by an immediate change in direction, tone, and voice.

    Replacing well-established characters with brand new versions is always a dicey move. It'd be interesting, though, to see what kind of Captain America modern times would form. But how likable could he be?

    What I'm trying to say is that I think Carter has too many personal and psychological issues to take up the mantle. It wouldn't seem true to what the character should be doing in the wake of killing Cap.

    I see the role of Cap as going to someone who can set aside all personal issues and become a symbol. Captain America can never rest. That's why I see Carter, Winter Soldier, and Falcon as unlikely prospects: too many personal issues that would get in the way of being the right kind of symbol.

    That's also why I see someone new as the best choice, because that person wouldn't come with much baggage.

    Briareos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    What do you think the role of a new Captain America would be in the Marvel Universe?

    And why can't you be a symbol publicly and a real person, with personal issues, privately?

    Hooraydiation on
    Home-1.jpg
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    What do you think the role of a new Captain America would be in the Marvel Universe?

    And why can't you be a symbol publicly and a real person, with personal issues, privately?

    Captain America is the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way. He always has been, he always will be, whatever one might think of those things.

    Steve Rogers had, compared to most of the MU's superheroes, relatively mundane skeletons in his closet. He was, for the most part, incorruptible. Both Winter Soldier and Carter cannot live up to that ideal. Maybe the Falcon can (I don't know much about the character except that he and Cap were partners for a long time).

    Steve Rogers was the perfect guy to be Captain America, because he came from a time when Americans were less cynical about the ideas that Captain America represents. He was pure, in a sense. The new Captain America is going to need a similar purity in order to become the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way successfully.

    Briareos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Briareos wrote: »

    For fuck's sake. And here I thought we were just poking fun at the characters and the fact that there aren't many black super-heroes. Instead, I'm getting a fucking lecture about subtle racism. Stick it in your ear, Hooraydiation. In your goddamn ear.

    I guess I was kind of a dick, taking an earnest attempt at conversation and responding with a wholly unwarranted flame. Thank god cooler heads prevail, and a guy like me can be shown the error of my ways.

    Yes, who'd ever think that making an earnest attempt at a serious point would result in unwarranted flame?

    /By the way, I agree with your points on tokenism. Well thought out.

    mattharvest on
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    What do you think the role of a new Captain America would be in the Marvel Universe?

    And why can't you be a symbol publicly and a real person, with personal issues, privately?

    Captain America is the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way. He always has been, he always will be, whatever one might think of those things.

    Steve Rogers had, compared to most of the MU's superheroes, relatively mundane skeletons in his closet. He was, for the most part, incorruptible. Both Winter Soldier and Carter cannot live up to that ideal. Maybe the Falcon can (I don't know much about the character except that he and Cap were partners for a long time).

    Steve Rogers was the perfect guy to be Captain America, because he came from a time when Americans were less cynical about the ideas that Captain America represents. He was pure, in a sense. The new Captain America is going to need a similar purity in order to become the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way successfully.

    Well, you're in a broader argument about whether Rogers was "pure" or just "naive".

    Almost no actual historians actual buy the idea of any 'more ideal' past, just because it's almost 100% false-nostalgia for some by-gone era that never existed.

    People were most certainly not more pure in Rogers' day than today; the country in the 1930s-40s (his era) was even more racist, sexist, xenophobic and outright bigoted in almost every fashion. Discrimination was legally enshrined, and politically favored around the country. The America Rogers grew up in was at least as problematic today, if not worse in its own ways.

    Just remember: while Rogers was introduced to readers punching Hitler on the cover of his first comic, he was also depicted making constant racist comments about "Krauts", "Nips", "Japs", etc. while acting misogynist, etc. He's evolved over the years as Americans' conceptions of good behavior changed - for example, he probably wouldn't have called Sunfire a nip any time recently - but that doesn't change the way he was in the 40s/50s, nor how the world was in the 40s/50s.

    mattharvest on
  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I think it's fair to say that even if he symbolizes some early 20th century concepts, even by the standards of the time he would've been considered unusual.

    If it was otherwise, you could've given any WWII soldier the serum and gotten the same guy, obviously not the case.

    Scooter on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Briareos wrote: »
    What do you think the role of a new Captain America would be in the Marvel Universe?

    And why can't you be a symbol publicly and a real person, with personal issues, privately?

    Captain America is the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way. He always has been, he always will be, whatever one might think of those things.

    Steve Rogers had, compared to most of the MU's superheroes, relatively mundane skeletons in his closet. He was, for the most part, incorruptible. Both Winter Soldier and Carter cannot live up to that ideal. Maybe the Falcon can (I don't know much about the character except that he and Cap were partners for a long time).

    Steve Rogers was the perfect guy to be Captain America, because he came from a time when Americans were less cynical about the ideas that Captain America represents. He was pure, in a sense. The new Captain America is going to need a similar purity in order to become the symbol of freedom, justice, and the American Way successfully.

    Well, you're in a broader argument about whether Rogers was "pure" or just "naive".

    Almost no actual historians actual buy the idea of any 'more ideal' past, just because it's almost 100% false-nostalgia for some by-gone era that never existed.

    People were most certainly not more pure in Rogers' day than today; the country in the 1930s-40s (his era) was even more racist, sexist, xenophobic and outright bigoted in almost every fashion. Discrimination was legally enshrined, and politically favored around the country. The America Rogers grew up in was at least as problematic today, if not worse in its own ways.

    Just remember: while Rogers was introduced to readers punching Hitler on the cover of his first comic, he was also depicted making constant racist comments about "Krauts", "Nips", "Japs", etc. while acting misogynist, etc. He's evolved over the years as Americans' conceptions of good behavior changed - for example, he probably wouldn't have called Sunfire a nip any time recently - but that doesn't change the way he was in the 40s/50s, nor how the world was in the 40s/50s.

    And all that stuff is of questionable continuity value. I'm not talking about what Captain America looked like in Golden Age comics. As I'm writing all this, I'm actually thinking of the Captain America of the late 80s through mid-90s, which is the time period of the character with I am most familiar. I'm thinking about the Captain America that so many heroes were willing to follow almost purely on the basis of "It's Captain America, and he's like the boss, so I'm with him."

    A guy who was a Soviet assassin is insufficiently inspiring as a prospect for Captain America. He was a special forces tool of this country's most dangerous enemy from end of WWII through 1989, and he continues to be mentally damaged goods.

    A woman who actually was the one who killed Steve Rogers (because she was under the control of Cap's primary nemesis) is also insufficiently inspiring. She's still a tool of one of America's enemies.

    The Falcon does not suffer from the "used to/still does work for the bad guys" drawback, but he does suffer from the need to be his own man. If I recall correctly, one of the reasons he and Cap weren't a team anymore was because Falcon wanted to get out on his own and forge his own identity. I don't think it would be true to the character for him to now decide to abandon his identity in favor of taking the identity of the man from whose shadow he was trying to escape.

    As for the Patriot, he's too young. He does not have the maturity and poise that Rogers had. He does not have the ability to lead that Rogers had. Maybe he will in five years, but he doesn't now.

    Also, going back to my exchange with Hooraydiation over the "tokenism" thing, I was mad because I did not mean to suggest that Falcon and Patriot are actually tokens. I take exception to Hooraydiation accusing me of being racist because I, in his opinion, misapplied the term "token black man" in my attempt to poke fun at Marvel for having very few black heroes. It was not a highly enlightening discussion of what "token black man" really means in literature or comics, it was him pointing an accusation at me which was completely misplaced and inappropriate.

    Briareos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say that even if he symbolizes some early 20th century concepts, even by the standards of the time he would've been considered unusual.

    If it was otherwise, you could've given any WWII soldier the serum and gotten the same guy, obviously not the case.

    I'm not saying Rogers wasn't a good man amongst his peers in WWII (and remember, the modern Rogers is supposed to have done almost all those WWII-era stories). All I'm saying is that the same character is also supposed to have bandied about all these racist slurs about our enemies in WWII (immediately after being made Captain America, too).

    My point is just that the 1940s wasn't any more pure than the 90s or today, and it's foolish to suggest otherwise. So, to say that Rogers was somehow more pure than say, Tony Stark or Peter Parker is to misunderstand both the character and the meta-fictional reasons why the character was/is compelling.

    That's part of why I don't think there's a readily available suggestion for a replacement Cap: it just may not be plausible in this day to write someone assuming that role, for the same reason it'd be implausible to create a Silver Surfer or Black Rider or any other Silver-Age type hero. We let the heroes be cornier back then, and now we've shoe-horned all this complexity into those corny heroes, and it's only that complexity that lets us love the corniness. If Captain America was introduced today for the first time, people would just call him a jingoistic nut.

    mattharvest on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yeah, but Ultimate Cap is OUR jingoistic nut. Not like that other guy. The one who has no hands.

    Fencingsax on
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Scooter wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say that even if he symbolizes some early 20th century concepts, even by the standards of the time he would've been considered unusual.

    If it was otherwise, you could've given any WWII soldier the serum and gotten the same guy, obviously not the case.

    I'm not saying Rogers wasn't a good man amongst his peers in WWII (and remember, the modern Rogers is supposed to have done almost all those WWII-era stories). All I'm saying is that the same character is also supposed to have bandied about all these racist slurs about our enemies in WWII (immediately after being made Captain America, too).

    My point is just that the 1940s wasn't any more pure than the 90s or today, and it's foolish to suggest otherwise. So, to say that Rogers was somehow more pure than say, Tony Stark or Peter Parker is to misunderstand both the character and the meta-fictional reasons why the character was/is compelling.

    That's part of why I don't think there's a readily available suggestion for a replacement Cap: it just may not be plausible in this day to write someone assuming that role, for the same reason it'd be implausible to create a Silver Surfer or Black Rider or any other Silver-Age type hero. We let the heroes be cornier back then, and now we've shoe-horned all this complexity into those corny heroes, and it's only that complexity that lets us love the corniness. If Captain America was introduced today for the first time, people would just call him a jingoistic nut.

    It is possible to be be a symbol of truth, justice, freedom, and the American Way without being jingoistic. It is possible to believe in the United States's Constitution and founding principles without being a racist, sexist, religious fundamentalist nut. In short, the new Cap doesn't have to point at the A on the mask and say it doesn't stand for France in order to make Americans proud of the United States.

    Briareos on
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    You weren't the only one using the term, and you weren't the only person I meant to address. However, since you happened to be the last person to use the word, I ended up using you as a lead-in to making my point.

    I can see how you might see that as a personal insult, but it wasn't meant to be.

    Hooraydiation on
    Home-1.jpg
  • NogsNogs Crap, crap, mega crap. Crap, crap, mega crap.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dex Dynamo wrote: »
    I want to see Capt. America become a movement, rather than just one man trying to live up to the mantle.

    Agreed 100%. Ever read Superman Annual #8: The League of Supermen? I think something like that would be pretty rad - a bunch of people being united under an ideal with a figurehead to look upto. Though I wouldn't want it to be an agency, but rather people coming to this conclusion independently and perhaps meeting up a few times in comics.

    Just like Superman, I don't think anyone can stand up to Cap. To replace him completely with someone with totally disgrace his image. Rather he needs to be placed as a shining beacon for all that the marvel universe should strife for.

    Nogs on
    rotate.jpg
    PARKER, YOU'RE FIRED! <-- My comic book podcast! Satan look here!
  • JCMJCM Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Yeah, but Ultimate Cap is OUR jingoistic nut. Not like that other guy. The one who has no hands.

    However he had one hell of a shitty sex life. Ultimate Cap only managed an abused wife who got so bored of him she actually went back to the guy who beat her up. And he spent too much time hugging old men.

    Thats the best thing i liked about 616 Cap. He doesnt drink nor smoke, but he got laid every 4-5 issues.

    JCM on
  • graizurgraizur __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    Is he sterile?

    Daken would so eviscerate MVP it's not even funny.

    But a more interesting fight would be X-23 vs Patriot.

    graizur on
  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    That's because (screw Marvel time) 616 Cap came back in the swingin' 60's and it was okay to do the deed with any and every woman with flowers in her hair. Then to avoid the skanky junkies in the '70s he did every woman in law enforcement before finally branching out and hitting that Mata Hari super-spy ass in the '80s.

    Ultimate Cap kinda got the rough end of the deal, waking up in the 21st century. Sure everyone tells him that the '30s and '40s morality is way out of date, but just when it seems like the future ain't too bad they've gotta tell warn him 'bout AIDs and herpes and all sorts of shit that just ruins the fun.

    Ringo on
    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    graizur wrote: »
    Is he sterile?

    Daken would so eviscerate MVP it's not even funny.

    But a more interesting fight would be X-23 vs Patriot.



    But.... X-23 isn't interesting?

    Ringo on
    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    graizur wrote: »
    Is he sterile?

    Daken would so eviscerate MVP it's not even funny.

    But a more interesting fight would be X-23 vs Patriot.

    Assassin bred and trained from birth vs diluted super soldier serum?
    No contest.

    Fencingsax on
  • graizurgraizur __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    graizur wrote: »
    Is he sterile?

    Daken would so eviscerate MVP it's not even funny.

    But a more interesting fight would be X-23 vs Patriot.

    Assassin bred and trained from birth vs diluted super soldier serum?
    No contest.

    OK then Daken Vs Winter Soldier. Or they would just team up. The pile of bodies would be seen for miles.

    graizur on
  • Devlin_DragonusDevlin_Dragonus Gorgeous Dallas, TXRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with her behavior, and certainly nothing to earn her the title of hypocritical bitch.


    She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."

    I think she's projecting herself onto Stark, which is a perfectly valid response to the situation when she can't tell anyone what she's done and therefore has no outlet for her grief and guilt.

    And everyone blames Stark for Cap's death, so her words aren't unique in that respect.

    I guess. I'm just confused that nobody's noticed the SHIELD ammo in Steve's gut.


    Probably because she used 100 bullets

    Devlin_Dragonus on
    I got nothing for you now. Try again later.

  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    the fact the people actually like X-23 makes me weep for all of geek kind

    Algertman on
  • Bloods EndBloods End Blade of Tyshalle Punch dimensionRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't see anything wrong with her behavior, and certainly nothing to earn her the title of hypocritical bitch.


    She basically says that Stark isn't really allowed to be affected by Cap's death, when She was the one that killed him. The way it comes off it just seems like Tony is really overwhelmed and Sharon basically says "You don't deserve to grieve."

    I think she's projecting herself onto Stark, which is a perfectly valid response to the situation when she can't tell anyone what she's done and therefore has no outlet for her grief and guilt.

    And everyone blames Stark for Cap's death, so her words aren't unique in that respect.

    I guess. I'm just confused that nobody's noticed the SHIELD ammo in Steve's gut.


    Probably because she used 100 bullets

    You, kind sir, get it.

    You get it so hard.

    Bloods End on
  • Bob The MonkeyBob The Monkey Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    By the way, it should be Captains America, not Captain Americas.

    grammar nazi hoy

    Bob The Monkey on
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    the fact the people actually like X-23 makes me weep for all of geek kind

    People like the Titans and Young Avengers too. So what?

    Fencingsax on
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    It's not a great character design, but I'v enjoyed the stories she's been in.

    Hooraydiation on
    Home-1.jpg
  • graizurgraizur __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2007
    I enjoyed the NYX covers. That's about it, seriously, I think it's just that Cassandra Cain (DC's Batgirl) use to be awesome and is now written so poorly and differently. X-23 sort of looks like Cassandra so shee gets the love. Comics are a visual medium.

    graizur on
  • B:LB:L I've done worse. Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    DMAC wrote: »
    An attempt to tone down the gay a little in Photoshop.
    capunisher.jpg
    That actually looks pretty good O_o

    If they're going to consider The Punisher for the role of the next Captain America, they've got to stop whoring him out in shitty cameo roles like in Moon Knight and Runaways. :|

    B:L on
    10mvrci.png click for Anime chat
  • HtownHtown Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Balefuego wrote: »
    I'm calling it now, Cap returns in issue #50 of the current run via Cosmic Cube.

    Agreed on issue 50, not so sure on the Cosmic Cube part.

    Htown on
    steam_sig.png
Sign In or Register to comment.