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So when CAN you call someone a racist?
Posts
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
You really need to do some reading. You don't seem to understand how cultural, social, and economic institutions are inherently biased towards whites and how whiteness is constructed in a way that gives those who are "white" an automatically privileged position. Here are some places to start:
http://www.amazon.com/White-Law-Construction-Critical-America/dp/0814751377
http://www.amazon.com/Possessive-Investment-Whiteness-Identity-Politics/dp/1566396352/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-5297072-7574422
http://www.amazon.com/Pursuit-Fairness-History-Affirmative-Action/dp/0195182456/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/002-5297072-7574422?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179773246&sr=8-4
Those are a start. There's a lot more out there but I chose ones that would be pretty easy for a layperson to understand, I think.
hummusandkimchi.blogspot.com
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/FriedRice-1814/hero/11834264
So, basically what you're saying, sans, is that (to go back to the race analogy...heh, homonyms) all the races are unfair, so trying to give runner D a balancing advantage is fair, because he's running uphill, too, as are all people who look like runner B and D.
That makes sense, to me.
Ultimately, AA doesn't seem like a terribly effective solution, at minimum, but it does seem to be the best we've got at the moment, so we might as well go with it until more fundamental causes for racial discrimination can be addressed.
Not speaking english does restrict employment opportunities, social circles and integration. Also, I'm sure people have seen situations where the men and kids in a household from a traditionally "oppressive" background can speak english, but the mother can't and only has friends within her own cultural group. That's never sat well with me, mostly because the daughters seem strikingly more open-minded and free in comparison. I know there's more factors at play there than simply being able to speak to native women, but still.
So I think "learn English or GTFO" is a pretty shitty attitude, but that wanting everyone in a country to know the dominant language is itself not racist.
Back to the question, plenty of people make (reciprocated) matey jokes about their friends' races and it's sometimes difficult to know when they've crossed a line. I've seen some huge rows that precipitated when someone made one joke too many. Some of these comments do stem from racism. However, I think it's easy for affluent, educated people to hear the casual way racially charged words are slung around in certain areas and miss the fact that there's insensitivity rather than malice behind them. They're probably doing more harm by nervously crossing the street to get away from a young black guy. Or not bothering to get to know the new Indian family ever though they're on kidney-donating terms with the rest of the street. Or whatever. I just see a lot of people frowning at scalllyish teenage lads who actually count more ethnic minority people among their closest friends the frowners can name (LOLZ, hyperboley) and it makes me think
Legitimately criticisism of culture and racial intolerence get confused to much, but I think it's safe to accuse someone of racism if they're showing inconsistancy toward different racial groups or speaking explicitly about racial superiority, as in the OP. Less substantial accusations make me edgy. E.g. I don't like it when proposals on immigration are immediately branded racist. They should be discussed on their own merits (or lack therof
Just a funny story I heard somewhat related to this. A lot of the shops in the (I think it was) Asian parts of town around here used to get horrible response times to any sort of emergency calls. The problem? The emergency responders couldn't read most of the signs, as they were not in English. Supposedly a decent stink was raised when they started demanding that the signs be in English.
I assume these are the privately-owned signs. Did it occur to the emergency responders that they might have gotten better results if they had requested that the signs be bilingual for safety reasons? Seems to me that walking into an ethnic neighborhood and saying, "You there! Take down that moon language!" is destined for failure.
I'm an immigrant, I'm learning the local language. Something I've seen in my home country, and here, is that if you don't speak the language you are MASSIVELY disadvantaged. I think immigrants should be pushed/encouraged/assisted to learn the local language. Not some lazy 'Learn English or get out' rhetoric, but real help and perhaps some pressure. After all, it's definitely in your best interests.
Just to muddy the waters, am I right that the USA doesn't have an official language? Yeah, English is overwhelmingly common, but not official?
So yeah. Race has a way of insinuating itself into all sorts of debates that in an ideal world would be completely unrelated - which is why it's so important that it be dealt with, and why I react so strongly against people who pop into discussions like these only to say "gee whiz hey guys i'm colorblind why are we talking about this unimportant old fashioned issue instead of my pet issue #471". It's not just insultingly belitting, it betrays a rather pitiable ignorance.
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
Actually, it's fairly amusing, because you pretty much foreshadowed this would happen with your first post: "Schrodinger, I'm very upset that you're wasting our time talking about "racism" instead of the obviously much more important issues that I, a white guy, am interested in."
Actual Play: Mage: the Awakening - At the Edge of All Things
I think you'd lose many race issues if they weren't badges for culture wars.
Not all, of course.
As much as "You there! Take down that moon language!" made me laugh, I seriously doubt that is how it happened. I was just relating a somewhat funny story, so I didn't care much about the details. My understanding was that they said the address had to be in English. The name of the store could still be in whatever the desired language was. Again, just my limited understanding, as I didn't exactly follow the story, just had it explained to me by a friend.
I've studied consttitutional law and I'm here to clarify that quotas are illegal when talking about higher ed admissions and is very very frowned upon in the corporate world.
Okay a couple things. I've studied consttitutional law and I'm here to clarify that quotas are illegal when talking about higher ed admissions and is very very frowned upon in the corporate world.
And "solace" has nothing to do with it. Getting at the root causes is fine but then the government will start limiting expression and so forth so that's very dangerous territory. However, if we help minorities that we have taken advantage of in the past, then gradually people will see that one race is just as capable or incapable as another.
You also seem to infer that someday we will get to a point where racism won't exist in its current form. Sorry, not going to happen. Skin color is the first thing one notices about a person and it's impossible not to make subconscious assumptions based on that. The most one can do is try to recognize these internal biases and correct them.
This is also applicabe on a societal level since society consists of... people.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
...Except that you are woefully unprepared should, say, the economic situation in your area change for the worse and you need to move.
Well, yes. Like I said, my family sure as hell didn't stick to Polish, because they wanted out of Turners Falls. It should be easy to learn whatever language is dominant in your country. It's also prudent to. But you're only obligated to learn the language you need to do what you want to do. And sometimes, English isn't necessary.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
But, yeah, the lack of English in some of these communities really does limit the opportunities of some of the people to succeed outside of their increasingly diminishing groups, and the very lack of easy interaction with most of the rest of the country can be a blight in and of itself.
That's my major problem with it, really. It means that if you want to leave a non-english speaking area, it can be very hard, because there's very little there that can prepare you for the larger community. It's fine if you're happy in the community, but if you're 18 and want to leave to make your way in the world, it seems like it would suck. Of course, my family's last experience was in 1930, so it might be less of an issue now.
http://troublethinking.wordpress.com (Updated Wed) http://twitter.com/#!/Durandal4532
I think people should maek an effrot to integrate somewhat. I'm willing to accept that this may take a generation or two. However much more than that i see it as willfully not integrating which kinda bugs me.
I agree with the sentiment of your statement, but I also think we need to be careful when we talk about "integration" to realize that it's a two-way street, and that the USA's history of immigration and assimilation isn't nearly as rosy as we'd like to believe.
What looks on the surface from one perspective to be "willfully not integrating" could in fact be an immigrant community becoming insular to protect itself against subtle and not-so-subtle racism and rejection by the "native" community.
Elaboration: in my experience, those who point out others' "willfull non-integration" often have made absolutely no effort to reach out to the "non-integrating" community in the first place, thus contributing to an unwelcome atmosphere resulting the noted non-integration.
Asian Prom:
Note: This is a UNIVERSITY ORGANIZATION that holds this (there's also a goth prom and a gay prom around here... oy). As such, the people in charge of this are not only English speaking, but fairly well educated.
They still choose to seperate themselves in an arbitrary manner (though, to be frank, that it's Asian and not Hmong-only, is impressive, yet all the more wrong, at the same time).
I can't provide much detail, since I come from another area. My only real awareness in this regard is that my bluntly racist white coworker is happily married to a Hmong woman, and that there are Hmong forced-prostitution rings that sell 12 year old ass with the aid of community isolation.
As for the goth and asian proms...
What the hell?
Of course I'm racist, I'm a hybrid.
Anyone who can qualify as having a race may as well be royalty.
I'm guessing that these clubs probably have more to do with culture than race. Like if a white anime fanatic wanted to join the Japanese club, I doubt they would stop him. And of course, no one would ever complain about more culturally oriented events, like if this was a Jewish prom, Christian Prom, Mormon Prom, Polish Prom, etc.
One of the more awkward moments I had in college was during my freshman year, when an Asian guy approached me out of the blue and asked me point blank, "Hey, let me ask: Or are most of your friends white, or are most of your friends Asian?" Very uncomfortable.
"Asian" is the (East Asian?) equivalent of "White."
So...are you chinese or japanese?
Technically I'm Mongolian.
I wish I was Chipanese.
Like the Wok. Neat.
"Shot that never misses" fallacy.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
You know, you always hear this example when people talk about racism, of equally qualified people applying for a job and race coming into play. I honestly want to know how often two candidates are so rigidly similar in experience, education, professional manner, and having a god damn personality that it actually warrants this sort of comparison.
I hear it happens all the time to racists, since I always see those guys bumbling around groaning about how everything "tuk rrr jorbs!" and such.
Drunks Against Mad Mothers
I've never heard of anyone coming out of an unconscious bias test without some form of statistically significant racial bias. If anyone has, please tell me.
hummusandkimchi.blogspot.com
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/FriedRice-1814/hero/11834264
lol
That's not a white man - that's a texan.