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Gender in Video Games

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Posts

  • WotanAnubisWotanAnubis Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    Dulath wrote: »
    But there's also been a recent trend in games and the forums of the intertubes. You have characters like Samus and Alyx who are strong-willed, independent, and tough. These women characters are still designed, modeled, skinned, and animated by men, but I guess these are progressive 21st century men?
    Yes, Samus is very recent. Definitely a product of the 21st century. :P

    Agreed. At least the iterations of Samus I've played (Prime 1 & 2).
    I do hope you realise that I was refering to the fact that Samus has been around since the '80s and hasn't changed much over time. ;-)

  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Yeah, Samus has been the same ass-kicker for nigh on twenty years now.

    I actually liked how they handled her in the original Metroid Prime best - when she took her helmet off, I mean. That's the version of Samus I think best reflects the character, as opposed to pretty much everything afterwards where she just happens to be super hot.

    Not that there's anything wrong with her being hot, it's just that Nintendo seems to like the idea too much.

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  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Uee Citizen Record #2051 Über Star CitizenRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    So to the topic: You have to remember that women characters in video games are made by, surprise, men. That might be why they often have improbably massive tits and sport chainmail bikinis.

    That's kinda ridiculous. For the last centuries, male writers have created a lot of great female characters.

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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    When I first started reading this thread I thought the topic was "Gender in Video Games." IN video games, so, we're talking about characters here, right?. Them some of you people decided to play the real life gender game. What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    You're actually too stupid to see how it's relevant? What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    irt IGA;

    Damn, that's pretty sad. He retconned Sonia out because it's too hard for him to imagine a woman who isn't just a plot-device for a male character's story. Even within Konami he could find examples of strong women left and right. What a fucking cop-out.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • DulathDulath Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    So to the topic: You have to remember that women characters in video games are made by, surprise, men. That might be why they often have improbably massive tits and sport chainmail bikinis.

    That's kinda ridiculous. For the last centuries, male writers have created a lot of great female characters.

    What is ridiculous, the statement? Or the reality behind it? I agree that the reality is ridiculous.

    If you think the statement is ridiculous, then I imagine you haven't been gaming for very long. Laura Croft, EverQuest chick, any of the multitude of female characters in games designed by men to appeal to men.

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  • DulathDulath Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    When I first started reading this thread I thought the topic was "Gender in Video Games." IN video games, so, we're talking about characters here, right?. Them some of you people decided to play the real life gender game. What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    You're actually too stupid to see how it's relevant? What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    So it's personal attacks time now, eh? What the fuck is the matter with me? What gives you the right to suggest anything is?

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  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    Dulath wrote: »
    When I first started reading this thread I thought the topic was "Gender in Video Games." IN video games, so, we're talking about characters here, right?. Them some of you people decided to play the real life gender game. What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    You're actually too stupid to see how it's relevant? What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    So it's personal attacks time now, eh? What the fuck is the matter with me? What gives you the right to suggest anything is?

    What the fuck is the matter with me? What gives you the right to suggest anything is?

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • StormwatcherStormwatcher Uee Citizen Record #2051 Über Star CitizenRegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    Dulath wrote: »
    So to the topic: You have to remember that women characters in video games are made by, surprise, men. That might be why they often have improbably massive tits and sport chainmail bikinis.

    That's kinda ridiculous. For the last centuries, male writers have created a lot of great female characters.

    What is ridiculous, the statement? Or the reality behind it? I agree that the reality is ridiculous.

    If you think the statement is ridiculous, then I imagine you haven't been gaming for very long. Laura Croft, EverQuest chick, any of the multitude of female characters in games designed by men to appeal to men.

    Your statement is ridiculous.
    And you are stupid.

    Males can write up excellent female characters. That is plain to see.
    The problem with women portrayed in games is not that it's men creating them. The problem is that the WRONG men are creating them.

    Your statement implies that no male can create a good female character. And that is pretty fucking retarded.
    Because there are plenty of female characters in movies, books, theater and so on that are not designed to appeal to men.

    Of course, there are many female characters in those medias designed by men to appeal to men, too.

    You point is moo. Like Joey said.

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  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    That's kinda ridiculous. For the last centuries, male writers have created a lot of great female characters.
    I think part of it is the comic-book syndrome. There's a sort of inertia where it's hard to make a non-exploitative character without it seeming out of place, and it's simpler for designers to just look at what worked before, and ape that. It should be easy to make a perfectly fine female lead, but so long as "no one does", it's harder.

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    I was hoping the lead in GTA4 would have been female.

    Why?

    Why not? I just think it would be interesting to have a female lead in GTA that can be just as amoral as any of the others.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    I was hoping the lead in GTA4 would have been female.

    Why?

    Why not? I just think it would be interesting to have a female lead in GTA that can be just as amoral as any of the others.

    Or an option, actually maybe have multiple characters with different stories.

    Edit: Actually, GTA4 should have been a remake of VtM: Bloodlines.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

  • Lave IILave II Registered User
    edited May 2007
    Lave II wrote: »
    I would contrast Prince of Persia: Sands of Time with Prince of Persia: Warrior Within - and then weep and weep.

    Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is one of the best games ever. It has a very positive, strong female character, who the chauvinistic player character slowly falls in love with as his sexist presumptions are proven wrong.

    It also subverts the "it's eye candy for men" approach by having Farah speak to you if you stare at her breasts in first person "I don't like it when you look at me like that" whilst pretty much playing to the female audience with a hot male lead who strips as the game progress (my gf liked that a lot). It even features a scene that could be interpreted as a sex scene (the baths) - but shows nothing but steam and a conversation and makes you fill in the blanks.

    It treats the male and female leads as equals with strengths and flaws and ends beautifully.

    Warrior Within (the sequel) on the other hand has a jerk calling women in metal thongs "bitches" whilst shity emo rock plays.
    Spoiler:
    .

    Great thanks thread. I'll cry myself to sleep again tonight now. Hating Ubisoft with all the bile my tiny frail heart can muster.

    That's because Jordan Mechner is awesome and he should have come back for WW.
    In regard to Prince of Persia: Warrior Within, Mechner was quoted in the December 2005 issue of Wired Magazine as saying: "I'm not a fan of the artistic direction, or the violence that earned it an M rating. The story, character, dialog, voice acting, and visual style were not to my taste."

    Right now, he's doing preproduction for the Sands of Time movie.

    Oh my. This is really interesting. Cheers. <3

    And thats a beautiful quote. "How do I loathe thee? Let me count the ways..."

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

    "Heroes with tits" would be a more accurate descriptor, and would have a counterpart "heroes with dicks", though I'm not sure it would be any less volatile it would be more accurately representative of your idea that the hero-characters in most games frankly aren't really even gendered in the first place on a character-level, only in their graphical representations.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • EchoEcho very gravitas Super Moderator, Moderator mod
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    When I first started reading this thread I thought the topic was "Gender in Video Games." IN video games, so, we're talking about characters here, right?. Them some of you people decided to play the real life gender game. What the fuck is the matter with you? GTFO of this thread.

    Please to be refraining from the backseat modding. Especially in that god damn tone.

  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Dulath wrote: »
    I was hoping the lead in GTA4 would have been female.

    Why?

    Why not? I just think it would be interesting to have a female lead in GTA that can be just as amoral as any of the others.

    In the first three GTAs you could actually play as a range of characters including women. I think they should go back to that.

  • WillethWilleth Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Has anyone mentioned the 'males are slow but strong and females are quick but weak' fighter cliché yet?

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  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

    "Heroes with tits" would be a more accurate descriptor, and would have a counterpart "heroes with dicks", though I'm not sure it would be any less volatile it would be more accurately representative of your idea that the hero-characters in most games frankly aren't really even gendered in the first place on a character-level, only in their graphical representations.

    Well, I'll be sure to use that next time, although I'd argue that it was the same thing. Unless of course your default gender for a hero wasn't a guy, and you don't associate tits with wearing a dress


    Of course the bit that seems to be a bit wrong is how this is effectively replacing one stereotype of female characters (weak, emotional, tends to get kidnapped a lot) with another (strong, equal counterpart to the guy, kicks ass). Of course, a lot of guys in games have the same problem, it's all the same macho bull and people are really only beginning to take baby steps forward when it comes to getting an actual story across in games.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Willeth wrote: »
    Has anyone mentioned the 'males are slow but strong and females are quick but weak' fighter cliché yet?

    It's not that simple anymore, really. No one can honestly claim that Maxi is slow. No one can rationally claim that Taki is weak. They do tend to slant the options in those directions but variation within each sex of fighting game characters has increased dramatically, while variation between has dropped off (as measured by "overall ability to kick the shit out of the other fighter"). None of them are realisitic regardless of sex, however. As I pointed out earlier, Requiem is an impossible sword, especially with some of Siggie's quick two and three-hit combos, no matter what your biological sex. Not all of the fighting games are doing it, I guess, I'm not sure which aren't, but that's a trend toward balance (with glitches, of course), which is a selling-point on fighting games. In other words, the results are good but they're a side-effect of the means used to attack the real objective, rather than being the objective.

    Plus in Soul Calibur 3's custom-character mode, my Knight class custom character is a girl, and she has Soul of Siegfried. I think fighting games are better when they tell the laws of physics to go eat a dick.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    What if they do manly things in a womanly way, or using feminine equipment? Like Cate Archer shooting rockets out of her purse in NOLF 2.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Rook wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

    "Heroes with tits" would be a more accurate descriptor, and would have a counterpart "heroes with dicks", though I'm not sure it would be any less volatile it would be more accurately representative of your idea that the hero-characters in most games frankly aren't really even gendered in the first place on a character-level, only in their graphical representations.

    Well, I'll be sure to use that next time, although I'd argue that it was the same thing. Unless of course your default gender for a hero wasn't a guy, and you don't associate tits with wearing a dress

    It isn't and honestly how often do you see women wear dresses anymore? Especially if they're doing something as physical as "save the world"?

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Rook wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

    "Heroes with tits" would be a more accurate descriptor, and would have a counterpart "heroes with dicks", though I'm not sure it would be any less volatile it would be more accurately representative of your idea that the hero-characters in most games frankly aren't really even gendered in the first place on a character-level, only in their graphical representations.

    Well, I'll be sure to use that next time, although I'd argue that it was the same thing. Unless of course your default gender for a hero wasn't a guy, and you don't associate tits with wearing a dress

    It isn't and honestly how often do you see women wear dresses anymore? Especially if they're doing something as physical as "save the world"?

    Everytime I look at the womens sign on some toilets? The world would be awfully confusing if they started putting trousers on girl stickfigures.

  • ViolentChemistryViolentChemistry __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Rook wrote: »
    Rook wrote: »
    Wyborn wrote: »
    Thanks for replying.

    Uh, where are we disagreeing, exactly? I can understand where you might think I'm arguing with you, but my post isn't aimed specifically at you, more to the general assertion that girls in games aren't real girls because they do manly things, which is a point put forth by other posters in the thread.

    Mainly because I'm the originator of the phrase that girls in games are just guys in dresses. And I think a lot of people have been attacking that phrase based on their own interpretation of it rather than the idea behind it.

    I can only imagine how a "black guys in games are just white guys with an extra coat of paint" may have gone down though :D

    "Heroes with tits" would be a more accurate descriptor, and would have a counterpart "heroes with dicks", though I'm not sure it would be any less volatile it would be more accurately representative of your idea that the hero-characters in most games frankly aren't really even gendered in the first place on a character-level, only in their graphical representations.

    Well, I'll be sure to use that next time, although I'd argue that it was the same thing. Unless of course your default gender for a hero wasn't a guy, and you don't associate tits with wearing a dress

    It isn't and honestly how often do you see women wear dresses anymore? Especially if they're doing something as physical as "save the world"?

    Everytime I look at the womens sign on some toilets? The world would be awfully confusing if they started putting trousers on girl stickfigures.

    Who cares about that, public toilets should be banned anyway because they're unsanitary. That's right, whenever you have to go you should have to go home to do it. That'll make 'em reconsider the speed-limits.

    DAMM
    Drunks Against Mad Mothers
  • SmudgeSmudge Registered User
    edited May 2007
    If you want to add commentary on the ridiculous figures that females often get in games you could always check out almost anything by Team Ninja. DOA, modern Ninja Gaidens, DOA volleyball.

  • FCDFCD Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Alis from Phantasy Star comes to mind when I think of strong female characters who aren't sexually fetishized. Right from the title screen, where she is shown wielding a sword, it's clear that she is meant to be the main hero of the story. Of course, one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have. On the other hand, though, PS is an 8-bit era game, and the storylines that games had back then, even for deeper games like RPGs, tended to be simplistic, so it could just be a limitation of the form which causes her traits to be somewhat generic.

    "If anyone tried to steal your WAX LIPS, you would eat their eyeballs and deliver an angry lecture into their empty sockets." Hearts Boxcars, The Midnight Crew
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    FCD wrote: »
    one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have.

    What trait could any female character have that a male couldn't outside giving birth?

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Males can write up excellent female characters. That is plain to see.
    The problem with women portrayed in games is not that it's men creating them. The problem is that the WRONG men are creating them.

    Designers often have to be adept at working with scripting or level building tools which again skews things towards the geek recruitment pool. Someone that can only write up an initial design document and not much else during the software engineering cycle is dead weight through 80% or so of the traditional development cycle. On top of that, designers often come up from some other position in the game industry instead of being entry level positions.

    Now dedicated writers for a game may be a different story. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to talk with or listen to any. The game companies that have visited my campus aren't the ones making RPGs where there's lots of writing involved. Still, I imagine that the needs of software development would still favor writers that can be moved on to do other tasks during development and testing which would again skew recruiting towards the geek side of things.
    FCD wrote: »
    Alis from Phantasy Star comes to mind when I think of strong female characters who aren't sexually fetishized. Right from the title screen, where she is shown wielding a sword, it's clear that she is meant to be the main hero of the story. Of course, one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have. On the other hand, though, PS is an 8-bit era game, and the storylines that games had back then, even for deeper games like RPGs, tended to be simplistic, so it could just be a limitation of the form which causes her traits to be somewhat generic.

    Fantasy (even sci-fi fantasy) RPGs are interesting for me since there are a number of mythological women warriors in various cultures. In Greek myths, Athena was quite capable of kicking ass and taking names despite generally being associated with more intellectual pursuits and Diana was the goddess of hunters. Japan had a few before cultural changes around the Tokugawa era shifted things to be much more male dominated. There are lots of other examples. Basically, there's a lot of inspiration to draw from for female characters in fantasy games beyond the last-of-a-dying/vanished-race-of-magic-users-who-is-also-quiet-and-demure role. Strategy RPGs seem to draw on this far more than traditional JRPGs though. Fire Emblem is chock full of female heroes.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

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  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Leitner wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have.

    What trait could any female character have that a male couldn't outside giving birth?

    I think it's more of a lack of any pandering to a male audience really, whether with a skimpily dressed female character or a male that makes suggestive comments or finds himself in suggestive situations.

    Big Dookie wrote: »
    I found that tilting it doesn't work very well, and once I started jerking it, I got much better results.

    Steam Profile
    3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Leitner wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have.

    What trait could any female character have that a male couldn't outside giving birth?

    Well that's the thing. We've gone from having girls as objects to rescue. To having girls be indenticle to the guys in our games without bothering to see what's inbetween.

    It's one of the reasons I really like Dreamfall because Zoe Castille is most definitely a girl. You're always very aware of this. Guys will flirt with her, or they'll intimidate her if they think they can get away with it. People will be lewd or people will be obsequious as they only are to pretty girls. She'll fall for someone, she'll hate someone. The interactions within the world make her a girl.

    It's not just in adventure games you can get this going on though. Both Half-Life 2 and Max Payne do awesome jobs of breaking out from what could have been mere cookie cutter generic games and bringing the characters out. In Max Payne you lose a wife and child. Would that have been different if Max was a girl? Is the bond between a mother and her child different from a father?

    It's a problem that both male and female characters face as games try and grow up, and progess beyond just killing things.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Smudge wrote: »
    If you want to add commentary on the ridiculous figures that females often get in games you could always check out almost anything by Team Ninja. DOA, modern Ninja Gaidens, DOA volleyball.

    Doesn't a shirtless Zack cancel out a tube top Hitomi?

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • ben0207ben0207 Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Smudge wrote: »
    If you want to add commentary on the ridiculous figures that females often get in games you could always check out almost anything by Team Ninja. DOA, modern Ninja Gaidens, DOA volleyball.

    Doesn't a shirtless Zack cancel out a tube top Hitomi?

    Is there something you're not telling us? :winky:

  • RookRook Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    ben0207 wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Smudge wrote: »
    If you want to add commentary on the ridiculous figures that females often get in games you could always check out almost anything by Team Ninja. DOA, modern Ninja Gaidens, DOA volleyball.

    Doesn't a shirtless Zack cancel out a tube top Hitomi?

    Is there something you're not telling us? :winky:

    Only if Zack has his own wang jiggle physics.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I'm just saying Tecmo is an equal opportunity offender. And 'wang jiggle physics' is a terrible idea. Let's just hope Itagaki doesn't learn english, read this thread, and then implement it in DoA 5.

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • OrikaeshigitaeOrikaeshigitae Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2007
    Lave II wrote: »
    Lave II wrote: »
    I would contrast Prince of Persia: Sands of Time with Prince of Persia: Warrior Within - and then weep and weep.

    Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is one of the best games ever. It has a very positive, strong female character, who the chauvinistic player character slowly falls in love with as his sexist presumptions are proven wrong.

    It also subverts the "it's eye candy for men" approach by having Farah speak to you if you stare at her breasts in first person "I don't like it when you look at me like that" whilst pretty much playing to the female audience with a hot male lead who strips as the game progress (my gf liked that a lot). It even features a scene that could be interpreted as a sex scene (the baths) - but shows nothing but steam and a conversation and makes you fill in the blanks.

    It treats the male and female leads as equals with strengths and flaws and ends beautifully.

    Warrior Within (the sequel) on the other hand has a jerk calling women in metal thongs "bitches" whilst shity emo rock plays.
    Spoiler:
    .

    Great thanks thread. I'll cry myself to sleep again tonight now. Hating Ubisoft with all the bile my tiny frail heart can muster.

    That's because Jordan Mechner is awesome and he should have come back for WW.
    In regard to Prince of Persia: Warrior Within, Mechner was quoted in the December 2005 issue of Wired Magazine as saying: "I'm not a fan of the artistic direction, or the violence that earned it an M rating. The story, character, dialog, voice acting, and visual style were not to my taste."

    Right now, he's doing preproduction for the Sands of Time movie.

    Oh my. This is really interesting. Cheers. <3

    And thats a beautiful quote. "How do I loathe thee? Let me count the ways..."

    Fun fact: Elizabeth Barrett Browning, the writer of the 'let me count the ways' poem, named that collection "Sonnets from the Portuguese," disguising it as a translation of poems instead of original works written by her.

    She did this because poetry is traditionally regarded as a male profession, and girls weren't really supposed to do any sort of writing.

  • VicVic Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I'm just saying Tecmo is an equal opportunity offender. And 'wang jiggle physics' is a terrible idea. Let's just hope Itagaki doesn't learn english, read this thread, and then implement it in DoA 5.

    OH GOD I CAN PICTURE IT NOW

    *bounce* *bounce* *bounce*



    Interesting thread though. One thing I find it odd that games rarely (if ever) approach is the "alternative gender role" setting. Like a world where the women as bearers of children are the political leaders, or a society where total gender equality reigns (or even where genders are nonexistant or at least fluid). I suppose that game developers are afraid of being politically incorrect, though in reality I suppose it is a sign that game storytelling is less mature, or at least less artistically free than movie and book plots are.

    I for one would not mind playing a heroic amazon fighting a guerilla world against the legions of the nazi-inspired maleocrazy. Then again I could absolutely not imagine such a game that would be anything but completely satirical. Some day, I suppose.

    Also, games need more lesbians.

  • MorninglordMorninglord Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    I am very interested in seeing how the female lead of ff 13 is portrayed, personally.

    My Dark Souls 2 Diary Day 6 and 7 Updated
    (PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
  • WybornWyborn GET EQUIPPED Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
    Rook wrote: »
    Leitner wrote: »
    FCD wrote: »
    one could argue that she is, at least to a certain extent, a "guy in a skirt", since she has no character traits that a male hero couldn't have.

    What trait could any female character have that a male couldn't outside giving birth?

    Well that's the thing. We've gone from having girls as objects to rescue. To having girls be indenticle to the guys in our games without bothering to see what's inbetween.

    It's one of the reasons I really like Dreamfall because Zoe Castille is most definitely a girl. You're always very aware of this. Guys will flirt with her, or they'll intimidate her if they think they can get away with it. People will be lewd or people will be obsequious as they only are to pretty girls. She'll fall for someone, she'll hate someone. The interactions within the world make her a girl.

    It's not just in adventure games you can get this going on though. Both Half-Life 2 and Max Payne do awesome jobs of breaking out from what could have been mere cookie cutter generic games and bringing the characters out. In Max Payne you lose a wife and child. Would that have been different if Max was a girl? Is the bond between a mother and her child different from a father?

    It's a problem that both male and female characters face as games try and grow up, and progess beyond just killing things.

    Emphasis mine.

    The problem here isn't one of gender definition - what you're describing for Zoe is that she is in fact a person, not that she is a girl. The same kind of characterization applause can be showered on Kratos, albeit in a more limited way (especially in an action game) because we actually become intimately familiar with his motivations and the philosophy that drives him as a character. The same can be said for Maximillian Roivas (or any of the Roivas' and most of the people in ED, truth be told), Darth Revan in Sith Lords, on and on. The important thing here is that they are defined as people, not as men or women.

    That's a purely narrative problem, and I agree with you on the point that improvement will only come with th maturation of the medium when it comes to characterization. Once more, for emphasis, the problem applies to Dante just as much as to anyone else.

    That said, though, we have to consider the context in which we are working. You can't expect the same depth of characterization for Samus because she is defined in the fact that she is a bounty hunter - she goes out, she kicks ass, and she is as professional as possible in doing so. It would be different if she were interacting with other people a lot, but she's not - the whole point of the Metroid series is the sense of solitude and loneliness you draw from it, of being one person in an ocean of hostile forces and an uncaring universe. That doesn't afford itself the same depth of characterization that you're going to get from a game with a different sort of narrative, much as Gordon Freeman will forever be defined by the person playing him.

    You have to pick and choose when it comes to saying where lots of characterization is appropriate. In general, sure, but you can't expect it everywhere because it wouldn't make sense.

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  • FirebrandFirebrand Registered User
    edited May 2007
    It's already been mentioned several times I believe, but yeah, Jade of Beyond Good & Evil is probably the best female lead in a game I've ever played.

    She's not cute. She's not slutty. She's not doing the "girl power" thing. She's just a very brave and caring person.

  • AggroChanAggroChan __BANNED USERS
    edited May 2007
    Has Eirika from Fire Emblem Sacred Stones been mentioned yet?
    She's not a support character (more of the frontline fighter type) and the first healer you meet in the game is male, so that game should count for something.

    PSN + Zune :>
    Spoiler:
  • PharezonPharezon Struggle is an illusion. Victory is in the Qun.Registered User regular
    edited May 2007
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