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Xorn was a Skrull all along! (Retcon Thread)

SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
edited August 2007 in Graphic Violence
xorn.jpg

From Wikipedia:
Retroactive continuity or retcon is the adding of new information to "historical" material, or deliberately changing previously established facts in a work of serial fiction. The change itself is referred to as a "retcon", and the act of writing and publishing a retcon is called "retconning". Retconning can be done either on purpose, or accidentally, wherein a break in continuity is not noticed until later and is then corrected by later writers or editors.

Retcons are common in comic books, especially those of large publishing houses such as Marvel Comics and DC Comics, because of the lengthy history of many series and the number of independent authors contributing to their development; this is the context in which the term was coined.

Retcons, as anyone who would frequent this forum knows, happen all the time. They can range from anywhere to essential things to fix a continuity screw up, undoing something that outraged the fans, to unwanted or completely unnecessary. Generally, though, they are handled pretty poorly and leave people confused.

So what's your least favorite retcon? Are there any retcon's you're all for? How would YOU have handled something? Alternatively, with all the recent events and what not, is there anything you predict will be retconned in the near future? I figured this could generate some interesting discussion.

Skullo on
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Posts

  • LockeColeLockeCole Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Its not a retcon in and of itself, but the 'Superboy punched reality' has got to be my favorite retcon explaination of all time.

  • CharmyCharmy Registered User
    edited July 2007
    There is the rare case of the good retcon. The Green Goblin existed long before Harry or Norman Osbourne, and was only given his secret identity much later. At this point, I don't think anyone would argue that was a bad thing.

    I'm also a fan of the "Barry Allen is the source of his own powers" retcon, though that's of dubious continuity at this point.

    Recently? I fully expect Bart Allen's death to be heavily retconned within the next few years, including a probable return to life. And someone will (hopefully) retcon the Sins Past retcon sooner or later.

  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    They'll never retcon Barry's death. He died. No need to retcon that. Bringing him back is a different story.

    One example of fixing a whole bunch of retcons can be seen with Hawkman. Not only did Johns and Robinson fix his muddled past, but did in a way that made perfect sense to anyone.

    Brava I say. Brava.

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Sue Dibny's rape is the worst one in my opinion. Oh, so as it turns out she was raped by Dr. Light, yet never showed any signs of trauma whatsoever? Oh, and Elongated Man, her loving, dutiful husband never made it his mission to go track down Dr. Light any time he escaped and give him a gigantic rubber-handed pimpslap? Okay. But hey, at least it was used to drive a shitty, overwrought story wherein the rape victim wasn't even given a chance to get some character development from it, seeing as how she had someone stomp on her brain and light her on fire while she was pregnant. I'm just glad the story gave all those big, strong men in her life the chance to go and beat up her rapist. It was a wise storytelling decision to have them impacted more by her rape than Sue herself. I'm even happier that her husband, one of the world's greatest detectives got to solve the mystery of her murder. Wait, fuck, you mean he wasn't the black dude or the blind guy giving her an autopsy? Oh, I guess it was just a shitty story built from a Frankenstein-like assembly of poor editorial edicts.

    But hey, compared to her buddy Maxwell Lord, former benevolent schemer turned friend-murdering head of a covert black-ops organization, she got off light.

  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Okay who won the pool on that one?

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I'm sorry Karma, I'll abstain from posting about my
    Skullo wrote: »
    least favorite retcon?

    in a retcon discussion thread.

  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    How about a
    Skullo wrote: »
    retcon you're all for?


    Surprise us.

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  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Munch wrote: »
    Sue Dibny's rape is the worst one in my opinion. Oh, so as it turns out she was raped by Dr. Light, yet never showed any signs of trauma whatsoever? Oh, and Elongated Man, her loving, dutiful husband never made it his mission to go track down Dr. Light any time he escaped and give him a gigantic rubber-handed pimpslap? Okay. But hey, at least it was used to drive a shitty, overwrought story wherein the rape victim wasn't even given a chance to get some character development from it, seeing as how she had someone stomp on her brain and light her on fire while she was pregnant. I'm just glad the story gave all those big, strong men in her life the chance to go and beat up her rapist. It was a wise storytelling decision to have them impacted more by her rape than Sue herself. I'm even happier that her husband, one of the world's greatest detectives got to solve the mystery of her murder. Wait, fuck, you mean he wasn't the black dude or the blind guy giving her an autopsy? Oh, I guess it was just a shitty story built from a Frankenstein-like assembly of poor editorial edicts.

    But hey, compared to her buddy Maxwell Lord, former benevolent schemer turned friend-murdering head of a covert black-ops organization, she got off light.

    I remember reading the big Deathstroke fight before I really knew anything about a lot of the character's involved, and thought it was really cool. Fast forward to my first semester of college, where I took a Writing Seminar style class on Graphic Novels and Comics. For one of the analysis papers, IDENTITY CRISIS was a choice. So I'm like "Hey, I remember that fight scene. I'll read this."

    The first page of the paper was just a big D : face. (And the professor agreed!)

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  • TachTach Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Personally, I loathe the term "retcon" as it's become so heavily associated with ham-fisted attempts to push stupid ideas into continuity.

    Gwen & Norman? WTF?

    SBP reality punches? LAME.

    However, inventing a plot line to explain something in a past story can be cool. Parallax is an entity of living fear who drove Jordan crazy? Awesome.

    It's all in the context, and the actual result for me.

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  • AccualtAccualt Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Shit, was Xorn really a Skrull? I'm behind the times.

  • CharmyCharmy Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Bad Karma wrote: »
    They'll never retcon Barry's death. He died. No need to retcon that. Bringing him back is a different story.

    Aspects of his death have been retconned, though. When he died in "Crisis" that was it, but a few years later it was retconned in that he had run so fast he travelled back in time as lightning and gave himself powers. I like the idea, but it's status in continuity has been sort of up in the air ever since the Speed Force was retconned in.

    His death may always stay the same, but what followed it seems to be pretty much fair game for retconning.

    EDIT: After writing that up I suddenly realize you may have just been responding to the original post rather than my post. Shit.

  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I too enjoyed Green Lantern: Rebirth. John's handling of Hawkman was also great.

    I also sympathize with Marvel's reasons for the whole Xorn thing. They felt that a lot fan's wouldn't appreciate Morrison's handling of Magneto, that it betrayed the whole 'villian you can sympathize with' angle they were pushing for the character. Plus, you know, he died. Can't have that. So yeah, I understand why they did it.

    But really, did it have to be handled so POORLY? How many writers tackled it and continued to build on it? In my opinion, it could have been handled really simply:

    Magneto's abusing KICK. He snaps. Theres the whole Xorn/noble aspect of his personality, and the whole crazy human-death-camp side. So, you acknowledge that this happens, and have magneto disappear for a while, possibly showing that he's trying to reconcile for his actions. You could easily handle his beheading by saying Xavier did some pyschic influence, wolverine only thinks he beheaded him, etc. Wouldn't be the first time Xavier helped out Eric. Really, it seems pretty easy.

    And Sins Past. I can't honestly sit down and imagine some editor being like "This is a great idea. I LOVE it." The only good thing to come out of that was I returned the trade as a "christmas gift" and got Animal Man out of it.

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  • Calamity JaneCalamity Jane That Wrong Love Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    WINTER SOLDIER

    It was done right, yos.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Bad Karma wrote: »
    How about a
    Skullo wrote: »
    retcon you're all for?


    Surprise us.

    I think most retcons are godawful attempts to force continuity to bend in a way that'll allow the author to write whatever story they want. Let's run down a list real quick, just off the top of my head.

    -Yellow fear bug!
    -Arisia isn't really a teenager, she just looks like it, so Hal Jordan can fuck her guilt free
    -Yeah so Bruce Wayne has this old friend named Tommy Elliot..
    -Norman Osborn fucked Gwen Stacy and had super goblin kids
    -Aunt May didn't die, it was just an actress!
    -Guy Gardner's a Vuldariwhat?
    -Linda Danvers who?
    -Vic Sage developing cancer. Smoking for a month will do that to you.

    And so on.

    But hey, I liked the reveal in GLA that they had an unrevealed past member, Jean Lorraine, and the idea that Spider-Man's black suit was actually A) a symbiote and B) imprisoned on Battleworld due to its race deeming it insane was pretty cool.

  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Has Marvel used the Skrull thing before on any big character / event?

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  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Bad Karma wrote: »
    Has Marvel used the Skrull thing before on any big character / event?

    Dunno. I just used it for the title because of all the Skrullage going down in NA. Catchy Advertising.

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  • Calamity JaneCalamity Jane That Wrong Love Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    "Who else seems Skrully?"

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    AS I recall, She-Hulk may not have actually canonically slept with Juggernaut, because the book it was written in (and thus the legal evidence for it) was by Chuck Austen.

  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    -Vic Sage developing cancer. Smoking for a month will do that to you.

    I didn't really follow along with 52, just read the spoilers back in that big thread (which in hindsight I regret), but if I remember correctly did they actually show him die/his body? Didn't they just hand Montoya his hat and that was it?

    In a few years when Vic Sage is the next 'old' character they want back from the dead I can see them handling it like it was just an act/he was putting Montoya through a test or something.

    Man they should do that NOW.

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  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Skullo wrote: »
    -Vic Sage developing cancer. Smoking for a month will do that to you.

    I didn't really follow along with 52, just read the spoilers back in that big thread (which in hindsight I regret), but if I remember correctly did they actually show him die/his body? Didn't they just hand Montoya his hat and that was it?

    In a few years when Vic Sage is the next 'old' character they want back from the dead I can see them handling it like it was just an act/he was putting Montoya through a test or something.

    Man they should do that NOW.

    No they actually showed him in the final stages of death until he finally croaked.

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  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Bad Karma wrote: »
    Skullo wrote: »
    -Vic Sage developing cancer. Smoking for a month will do that to you.

    I didn't really follow along with 52, just read the spoilers back in that big thread (which in hindsight I regret), but if I remember correctly did they actually show him die/his body? Didn't they just hand Montoya his hat and that was it?

    In a few years when Vic Sage is the next 'old' character they want back from the dead I can see them handling it like it was just an act/he was putting Montoya through a test or something.

    Man they should do that NOW.

    No they actually showed him in the final stages of death until he finally croaked.

    Vic's a good actor?
    : (

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  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Skullo wrote: »
    Bad Karma wrote: »
    Skullo wrote: »
    -Vic Sage developing cancer. Smoking for a month will do that to you.

    I didn't really follow along with 52, just read the spoilers back in that big thread (which in hindsight I regret), but if I remember correctly did they actually show him die/his body? Didn't they just hand Montoya his hat and that was it?

    In a few years when Vic Sage is the next 'old' character they want back from the dead I can see them handling it like it was just an act/he was putting Montoya through a test or something.

    Man they should do that NOW.

    No they actually showed him in the final stages of death until he finally croaked.

    Vic's a good actor?
    : (

    Yeah, he took it to the limit.

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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I dont like this thread title because it wasn't an actual retcon.

    "FEAR BUG DID IT"

    would be better.

    And for the record I liked the fear bug.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I wanted to avoid anything actually spoilerish, and I found my Xorn mspaint doodle that I made earlier.
    Although, I agree, 'Fear Bug Did It!' would make a good title.

    Edit: God I am all about posting incomplete thoughts today.

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  • DarkWarriorDarkWarrior __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Munch wrote: »

    But hey, compared to her buddy Maxwell Lord, former benevolent schemer turned friend-murdering head of a covert black-ops organization, she got off light.

    Seriously, did noone else see this?

    ...it's in the shape of a giant c**k.
  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Oh god, that's horrible.

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  • Bad KarmaBad Karma Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Slightly arousing, but yeah..horrible.

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  • SkulloSkullo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    God I could not be more bored right now.
    I'd like to retcon that.

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  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited July 2007
    Anjin-San wrote: »
    WINTER SOLDIER

    It was done right, yos.

    We never saw Bucky actually die, just flashbacks of Cap see ing him still on the plane wing before it went boom far off, according to Brubaker, so its more like Marvel merely assumed he was dead.

    Now worst retcon ever?
    -Byrne writes Reed saving Galactus because he cant let a being die.
    -Galactus goes on to eat the Skrull throne world.
    -Reed is put on trial, and his defense? The Watcher and Odin say that Galactus should be kept alive for a race to grow strong enough to defeat him (didnt humans just do that?)
    -That left such a bad aftertaste, that one of the first editorial tasks after Byrne got the boot was to write some storyline on how some uber-evil would rise if we were to ever kill Galactus, and that Reed somehow knew that, according to his son. O_o

  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wait, so people are actually down with "Green Lantern: Rebirth"? I've never actually read any Green Lantern anything before Rebirth (I just knew the main plotlines from various websites), so I'll be the first to admit that I don't know the finer points of the character. Still, what I got from reading Rebirth was this: "No no no, guys! Hal never did anything bad! He was influenced! It's cool! You can still like him! He's totally a hero!".

    I felt like Hal, pre-Rebirth, was an incredible hero who did great things, went apeshit after a tragedy in his life, snapped, became one of the most powerful villains ever, and then, at the end, gave up his life in a heroic attempt to save the solar system. Rebirth essentially erases everything after "did great things", saying "oh, it wasn't really him".

    Don't get me wrong, I think that "Emerald Twilight" was a pretty bad, ham-fisted story. I'm not convinced that Hal would do what he did, regardless of how mad with grief he got. Twilight's Hal is pretty damn Skrully. Everything after that, though - becoming a villain, and then proving that deep inside he's still a hero - I thought was pretty good. Sure, fairly cliched, but still pretty interesting (and, most important, dynamic). And then Rebirth just completely erased that. Whatever ambiguity there may have been about Hal - I'd even say "depth", maybe - was erased: he was a hero, always. Comic book characters very rarely get a chance to change in any meaningful way, and this was Hal's opportunity. Rebirth undid that.

    I was under the impression that most people felt roughly the same way, but I guess it wasn't really based on anything.

    P.S. Having said that, I like the idea of Parallax/fear being the yellow impurity, and Parallax's current place in the DCU. I just wish that he and Hal weren't connected the way they are.

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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I loved Rebirth

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • delphinusdelphinus Registered User
    edited July 2007
    please please PLEASE someone retcon night crawlers past!

    his whole priest dealie made him MORE interesting (especially when a priest gets hit on by mutant hookers)

    "demon child, what are you talking about?" would be satisfying for me

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I dont think anyone would disagree that Chuck Austen did irreprable damge to Nightcrawler during his run.

    Completley ruined the character.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BogartBogart MR. Lady Anime Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Nothing ever permanently ruins a character. Everything can be retconned and stupid retcons only matter if you actually read the damn story. It's never been mentioned again and Nightcrawler went on being Nightcrawler. It's a retarded piece of shit story, but unless you're one of the unlucky ones who actually read it it's completely harmless.

    The only retcons I really object to are the ones that keep being stupid month after month. Xorneto, for instance. Marvel just brought back Magneto AND Xorn, farted about for months on end without an explanation beyond 'Xorn wasn't him' while readers got increasingly impatient, and then, years later, let Bendis clean it up because no-one else could be arsed. Just incompetent editing all round.

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Well, I mean yes I stil enjoy Nightcrawler and Brubaker writes him great in Uncanny X-Men, but now instead of having some great backstories to draw from, Brubaker is essentialy forced to ignore Nightcrawler's past because it is so awful. (Unless he wants to retcon it - which would be alot of extra hassle.)

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Skullo wrote: »
    retcon you're all for?

    I would be all for bringing Stephanie Brown back to life/making it so she was never actually dead.

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  • graizurgraizur __BANNED USERS
    edited July 2007
    Nightcrawler as a priest was great. Nightcrawler Son of Satan (But not mephisto) blah blah blah makes you wonder what they were thinking. I guess anything to make the christian devil seem less menacing.

    Retcon I would be down for? I don't know. There are a ton of stories that I thought were boring or worthless but I don't know how you could write them out of existance. I think a Skrull retcon as to why the Marvel Universe has been rertarded for the last year an a half is a dream come true.

    robosagogo wrote: »
    Finally, an Apocalyptian-American superhero. I've been waiting so long.
  • delphinusdelphinus Registered User
    edited July 2007
    see, we get a good X-man, but a hollow character. yeah he has powers, but dont ask him about anything else or else you'll get shit.

    at this point the only things that CAN happen to the character is put him in situations to deal with, but avoiding his past back story removes his entire reasoning of why he acts the way he acts.

    they did the same thing with scott. pretty boy teachers pet. you can only go so far. sexually suppressed man, mind affair with blond cooch? now leather wearing badass, theres a character with room to grow

  • metallicmetallic Registered User
    edited July 2007
    As far as retcons that I'm all for, the Killing Joke and what Moore did with Swamp Thing are example of how to do it right.

  • LadyMLadyM Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Was the "Power Girl's immaculately conceived super baby" thing from the 90s ever retconned out? Because that would be one retcon I would be all for.

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