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Knock an 'istorical 'ero Down a Peg

emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
edited July 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
Something that has bothered me about middle school history text books was how all the historical figures led perfect lives. The information school kids learn is usually biased towards all the good things these people did for mankind, often leaving out their vices, bad habits, and whatever the publishers feel might be too controversial for a seventh grader. That's not to say it's sanitized beyond recognition but after watching the animated Disney specials and going on museum trips, how is any youngster supposed to know that Ben Franklin or Abe Lincoln had a few dark spots in their otherwise remarkable lives?

To counter this, I thought it'd be fun to find prominent figures in history and tattle on some of their darker secrets that may have been swept under the rug. The stuff that isn't usually isn't mentioned on a plaque in their respective memorials. ;-)

For example, Gandhi was inspirational to the people of India but he was ruthless to his wife and supposedly slept naked with young girls in his family. No sex; he was just testing his willpower. Still shocking.

Thomas Jefferson had illegitimate children with slaves he owned even while he opposed strongly the slave trade.

It was alleged by the US government that Martin Luther King, Jr. frequently cheated on his wife. I don't know about this one since the FBI was deadset on defaming King and Malcolm X but the accusations were enough to create doubt.

Everyone knows Simon bolivar as a great liberator but near the end he took on the role as dictator over the Republic.

emnmnme on
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    BingoBingo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Eric Gill, creator of the widely used "Gill" typeface, sodomised his own daughters.

    (EDIT: Ok, perhaps not a great historical figure, but it's an awesome font IMHO)

    Bingo on
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    DocDoc Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2007
    I've always found these allegations to be amusing; it's not like it actually lessens their historical greatness.

    Similarly, Hitler being a vegetarian shouldn't make people go 'well, I guess he was compassionate after all.'

    Doc on
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    kaz67kaz67 Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Doc wrote: »
    I've always found these allegations to be amusing; it's not like it actually lessens their historical greatness.

    Similarly, Hitler being a vegetarian shouldn't make people go 'well, I guess he was compassionate after all.'

    It dosen't lessen their historical greatness but in a way I think it makes them more human.

    kaz67 on
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    AdrienAdrien Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Mother Teresa used to smoke pot.

    And she never passed the joint.

    Adrien on
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    ZalbinionZalbinion Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Sounds like you'd be interested in Lies My Teacher Told Me by James Loewen. It attacks precisely this sort of historical mythology.

    My example isn't really "knocking an historical figure down a peg," but one of my favorite bits from the book is hearing about Helen Keller's actual life: she became a prominent and highly public socialist agitator.

    Zalbinion on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Adrien wrote: »
    Mother Teresa used to smoke pot.

    And she never passed the joint.

    O_o

    Ok, smoking the pot I can believe but her not sharing?? Her reputation was based on sharing and selflessness!

    emnmnme on
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    Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Mother Theresa was, to the best of my knowledge, a terrible person in general.

    EDIT: Also, anyone who is interested in iconoclasm should read everything by Richard Shenkman- One Night Stands with American History, Legends, Lies and Cherished Myths of American History, I love Paul Revere, Whether he Rode or Not, and Legends, Lies and Cherished Myths of World History.

    Good writer, and entertaining as hell.

    Loren Michael on
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    TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Hey Abraham Lincon tell us about your long and illustrious law career

    Transporter on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    The movie "The Patriot" had to use a fabricated hero (Benjamin Martin) because the actual person upon whom he was based was known for slaughtering Indians and raping his slaves, along with using unconventional tactics against the Redcoats. Personally, I would've rather watched a movie about that guy. No sugarcoating for our benefit, gents.

    Glyph on
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    AdrenalineAdrenaline Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Glyph wrote: »
    The movie "The Patriot" had to use a fabricated hero (Benjamin Martin) because the actual person upon whom he was based was known for slaughtering Indians and raping his slaves, along with using unconventional tactics against the Redcoats. Personally, I would've rather watched a movie about that guy. No sugarcoating for our benefit, gents.

    Are you kidding? Mel Gibson.

    Adrenaline on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wasn't Gandhi a huge racist as well? I remember reading somewhere some of his comments about blacks that were certainly not very flattering.

    edit: Also, Bill Bryson's A Short History of Nearly Everything has a lot of interesting little tidbits on various scientists, including lots of cool stuff involving people betraying their closest friends, weird habits, and some other stuff.

    I never realized how much of a weirdo Newton was until that book.

    Vincent Grayson on
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    BingoBingo Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I never realized how much of a weirdo Newton was until that book.

    Early geeks.

    Bingo on
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    emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I shudder to think of all the prominent celebrities over the past few centuries that snuck off to have bacchanals and coke orgies at famous hangouts for the rich and powerful. Studio 54, Hellfire Club, etc.

    emnmnme on
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    ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited July 2007
    Martin Luther King, Jr. was a notorious womanizer and a complete asshole.

    George Washington would often pass gas and then blame it on the dog.

    ElJeffe on
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    Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Malcolm X liked white people. Seriously. He was much more happy with the idea of whites and blacks living together than MLK Jr. Also, MLK Jr would shit himself if his kids married a white person.

    Capt Howdy on
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    Something WittySomething Witty Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I remember something on the History Channel about how Abe Lincoln, who school textbooks portray as a perfect human (much like MLK) who never had a racist thought cross his head was actually in favor of deporting freed slaves back to Africa. So he didn't like slavery but apparently he didn't like africans all that much either.

    But you know it has been forever and a day since I saw that show and I can admit my knowledge on the subject is lacking so please correct me if I got anything wrong.

    Something Witty on
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    Capt HowdyCapt Howdy Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I remember something on the History Channel about how Abe Lincoln, who school textbooks portray as a perfect human (much like MLK) who never had a racist thought cross his head was actually in favor of deporting freed slaves back to Africa. So he didn't like slavery but apparently he didn't like africans all that much either.

    But you know it has been forever and a day since I saw that show and I can admit my knowledge on the subject is lacking so please correct me if I got anything wrong.

    He was just being nice.

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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Something that has bothered me about middle school history text books was how all the historical figures led perfect lives.

    Not to shit on the thread, but what do you expect from middle school? They're 12, and the teacher generally has to do the history of the world (part 1) in an hour a day. I'm more upset with the fact that high-school doesn't put more emphasis on particular histories to get past the simplistic white washing.

    moniker on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Something that has bothered me about middle school history text books was how all the historical figures led perfect lives.

    Not to shit on the thread, but what do you expect from middle school? They're 12, and the teacher generally has to do the history of the world (part 1) in an hour a day. I'm more upset with the fact that high-school doesn't put more emphasis on particular histories to get past the simplistic white washing.

    Seriously. A great amount of the history I've learned on my own since high school has made me think "Why the fuck didn't they talk about this in school?" I would've been way more interested in actual events, details about people involved, and stuff like that, rather than just learning a bunch of fucking dates and then a bullet list of "Why _____ happened"

    Vincent Grayson on
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    deowolfdeowolf is allowed to do that. Traffic.Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Mother Theresa was, to the best of my knowledge, a terrible person in general.

    Dude, she was a nun. What did you expect?
    moniker wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Something that has bothered me about middle school history text books was how all the historical figures led perfect lives.

    Not to shit on the thread, but what do you expect from middle school? They're 12, and the teacher generally has to do the history of the world (part 1) in an hour a day. I'm more upset with the fact that high-school doesn't put more emphasis on particular histories to get past the simplistic white washing.

    I worked with an 8th grade history teacher a few years ago who made it a point to let everyone know much some of these guys were assholes. My favorite was his 20 minute tirade on Andrew Jackson.

    deowolf on
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    Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wait, let me try.

    Franklin Deleanor Roosevelt? More like Franklin Deleanor Gaysevelt.

    Charles Kinbote on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    moniker wrote: »
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Something that has bothered me about middle school history text books was how all the historical figures led perfect lives.

    Not to shit on the thread, but what do you expect from middle school? They're 12, and the teacher generally has to do the history of the world (part 1) in an hour a day. I'm more upset with the fact that high-school doesn't put more emphasis on particular histories to get past the simplistic white washing.

    Seriously. A great amount of the history I've learned on my own since high school has made me think "Why the fuck didn't they talk about this in school?" I would've been way more interested in actual events, details about people involved, and stuff like that, rather than just learning a bunch of fucking dates and then a bullet list of "Why _____ happened"

    At my highschool in Houston, many of the students in my history class believed the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II was a fully justified. Kind of makes me wish that we didn't skip the section mentioning how over 800 Nisei from the 442nd Regimental Combat Team died rescuing 211 Texans from 1st Battalion, 141st Infantry. But whatever.

    Glyph on
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    Elbonian ManElbonian Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Wait, let me try.

    Franklin Deleanor Roosevelt? More like Franklin Deleanor Gaysevelt.

    Wait, didn't he die with his mistress, instead of his wife?

    Elbonian Man on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2007
    Didn't Benjamin Franklin smoke a lot of pot? I remember reading that somewhere, and then having it reinforced in my mind in a recent episode of The Colbert Report.

    Also, Paul Reviere (sp) was in bed wit a hooker when he got the call to ride.

    Dmitri Shostakovitch suffered from severe auditory hallucinations whenever he leaned his head to the right. Shortly after his death, an autopsy found a tiny piece of metal, presumably shrapnel from a bullet, lodged in skull poking at his frontal lobe.

    Joseph Smith was lying about everything.

    America, and many of our laws as well, is here as a result of a monetary venture. The concept of "freedom" was just a retcon.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    Charles KinboteCharles Kinbote Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    How about Caligula?

    It's common knowledge, not too shocking to anyone, but the dude was crazy.

    Thought he was made of glass and would shatter if anyone touched him.

    Charles Kinbote on
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    GimGim a tall glass of water Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    I seem to remember hearing somewhere that Benjamin Franklin left his wife on her deathbed and some other rather terrible things. I need to find a source for that, though.

    Gim on
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    GlyphGlyph Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    How about Caligula?

    It's common knowledge, not too shocking to anyone, but the dude was crazy.

    Thought he was made of glass and would shatter if anyone touched him.
    Someone should've told him that even glass doesn't shatter that easily.

    Glyph on
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    Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    People often remember Octavian as a good person. He was actually a cold-hearted, hypocritical, manipulative swine, a political chameleon, and everything he did was with the goal of obtaining and keeping supreme power for himself.

    Aroused Bull on
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    Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Why does the thread title say "an Historical Hero"? Shouldn't it be a historical hero?

    Vincent Grayson on
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    Irond WillIrond Will WARNING: NO HURTFUL COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!!! Cambridge. MAModerator mod
    edited July 2007
    The brits, they don't always pronounce their aitches.

    Irond Will on
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    Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Why does the thread title say "an Historical Hero"? Shouldn't it be a historical hero?

    Some people don't pronounce their 'h's at the beginning of words, and they change their indefinite articles to match. "In this 'ere thread, we knock an 'istorical 'ero down a peg, by jove by gum."

    Aroused Bull on
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    Dread Pirate ArbuthnotDread Pirate Arbuthnot OMG WRIGGLY T O X O P L A S M O S I SRegistered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Mackenzie King, Prime Minister of Canada during World War II, was probably not the best person to lead Canada during turbulent, hatred charged times. He hated Jewish people to the point that when a boat full of Jewish refugees from Germany managed to escape, and every country had rejected them and Canada was their last resort, King told them that Canada was not the sort of country to give out payouts to those who couldn't work, and sent them all back to Germany. He was also pretty happy that the atom bomb was tested on 'yellow' people, because it provided valuable knowledge without harming anyone of importance. He was also batshit insane and when his mother and dog died, he hired a medium to hold spirit conversations with them and would take their advice in how to run the country.

    He was a pretty good bookkeeper, though.

    Oh, and Abraham Lincoln hated his wife, who had some sort of mental disorder. When she went into a fit, he often would refer to it as "Another trip on the crazy train."

    Dread Pirate Arbuthnot on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thomas Edision stole tons of his inventions from his employees including his "revolutionary" film projector.

    nexuscrawler on
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    monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    It's common knowledge, but JFK and RFK were nasty little whores.

    moniker on
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    HF-kunHF-kun __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2007
    Mother Theresa was, to the best of my knowledge, a terrible person in general.


    I checked that out a while ago, and I've yet to see any reliable information indicating this is true. Just about every historian and commentator I've read (Joan Graff Clucas, Kathryn Spink, etc) who write about her give pretty strong evidence that badmouthing against Mother Theresa is pretty much junk made up by people who want to throw mud on someone who's held as a religious example.

    Oh, and I think John Lennon was pretty stupid and ignorant.

    HF-kun on
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    AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thomas Edision stole tons of his inventions from his employees including his "revolutionary" film projector.

    Also, the growth of Hollywood as Film Central was due to the studios seeking to get as far away from Edison as possible.

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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2007
    HF-kun wrote: »
    Oh, and I think John Lennon was pretty stupid and ignorant.

    This may be ironic, but I'm not going to disagree with you one bit. In fact, I kind of agree, and wish to add that he was arrogant as well.
    I liked George more.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    Wonder_HippieWonder_Hippie __BANNED USERS regular
    edited July 2007
    Oh yeah! Sousa didn't invent the Sousaphone, and most of those terrible, tedious marches that are credited to him weren't actually his. I forget if they were some of his students, or some of his contemporaries.

    Wonder_Hippie on
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    nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    Thomas Edision stole tons of his inventions from his employees including his "revolutionary" film projector.

    Also, the growth of Hollywood as Film Central was due to the studios seeking to get as far away from Edison as possible.

    Also the Lumiere borthers from france really invented the film camera/projector.

    nexuscrawler on
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    Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited July 2007
    HF-kun wrote: »
    Mother Theresa was, to the best of my knowledge, a terrible person in general.


    I checked that out a while ago, and I've yet to see any reliable information indicating this is true. Just about every historian and commentator I've read (Joan Graff Clucas, Kathryn Spink, etc) who write about her give pretty strong evidence that badmouthing against Mother Theresa is pretty much junk made up by people who want to throw mud on someone who's held as a religious example.

    Oh, and I think John Lennon was pretty stupid and ignorant.

    As far as I've heard: she set up convents instead of hospitals with the money she raised - which is understandable if you're a crazy fucking zealot, sure - but more than that, she declared that suffering was holy and that people should suffer in the name of Christ, going to hospitals to die instead of be healed. Then she herself, when seriously ill, received the best care money could buy.

    She also hit the hypocrite button about divorce when it came to Princess Diana.

    From what I've read she was something of a sadist.

    Evil Multifarious on
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