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Moment of the Week july 25

12346

Posts

  • Desktop HippieDesktop Hippie totally sane in the AsylumRegistered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Pimp my Kingpin?

    It came across to me like JMS had been warned not to do anything to Kingpin that would muck up the continuity of other comics, like Daredevil. (Isn't he out of jail already in Daredevil actually?) So he had to be satisfied with making the beating as brutal as possible without leaving Fisk with any damage that wouldn't heal in a day or two.

    Which sucks, because honestly I'd be okay with losing a character as cool as Kingpin if it meant Spidey got to kill him. Hell, I've been satisfied if he'd been stuck in a coma for a while, with Spidey planning to pull the plug on him when Aunt May died.

  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I'm glad Spidey didn't kill him, because it would completely wreck the character of Peter Parker. How could he go on being the same guy with blood on his hands? Would Mary Jane want to be married to a murderer? Would he be honoring Ben's memory by killing? Would Aunt May, if she ever wakes from her coma, be proud of him?

    Spidey has been through enough unnecessary revamping or tampering (depending on your perspective) but this is one part of the character that doesn't need changing: he's not a killer.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Yeah, Spidey murdering Kingpin is a place I dont want to go.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Yeah, Spidey murdering Kingpin is a place I dont want to go.

    yeah, that's going to far

    PSN; AlbertBOMB
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Home-1.jpg
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Planet 'Pin?

  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Planet 'Pin?

    Only on a much smaller scale, and instead of coming back with Warbound he returns with a bunch of Skrulls with Tommy Guns.

    Home-1.jpg
  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Planet 'Pin?

    Only on a much smaller scale, and instead of coming back with Warbound he returns with a bunch of Skrulls with Tommy Guns.

    as long as they're wearing zoot suits

    PSN; AlbertBOMB
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    There's a known abundance of zoot suits in space.

    Home-1.jpg
  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Planet 'Pin?

    Only on a much smaller scale, and instead of coming back with Warbound he returns with a bunch of Skrulls with Tommy Guns.

    as long as they're wearing zoot suits

    *snorts coffe*

    Ach, my keyboard!

  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Algertman wrote: »
    I think the worst thing Spider-Man could do to Kingpin would be to dump him on another planet, preferably one where the populace is generally smarter and more treacherous than Kingpin.

    Planet 'Pin?

    Only on a much smaller scale, and instead of coming back with Warbound he returns with a bunch of Skrulls with Tommy Guns.

    as long as they're wearing zoot suits

    World War Kingpin.

    "The man you call Spider-man sent me into space, destroyed my planet, and my alien wife.
    I have come back for him.
    With zoot-suit wearing Skrull gangsters."

    Best.
    Crossover.
    Ever.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Also, on the subject of Spidey killing Kingpin, I'd like if Pete hunts him down, beats the crap out of him again in much the same way, and then just lets him live, but leaves him with a "message" in front of whoever he has left.
    "I could kill you at any moment. I could snap your neck, rip out your heart, or even just suffocate you with webbing. I could even kill YOUR family...But I won't. And you know why? I don't need to remind myself who I am stronger than. I'm not going to kill you because I want you to live, knowing that you had kill an old woman just to hurt me. Because you are weaker than me. You are BENEATH me. You are nothing."

    And then throw him down.

    Kingpin gets to live, Spidey doesn't kill, and we still get the "Don't fuck with Spider-man's family" vibe.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    The problem with endings like that is that it doesn't make sense for Kingpin to not retaliate by killing the rest of Spider-Man's supporting cast. An in-character Kingpin would never accept a loss of that magnitude.

    And eventually, you'll get to the point where Peter either gives up and resigns himself to simply letting the justice system handle Fisk or, worse yet, straight out kills the guy.

    The third option would be someone else killing Fisk as Peter goes, "NO!"

    Home-1.jpg
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The problem with endings like that is that it doesn't make sense for Kingpin to not retaliate by killing the rest of Spider-Man's supporting cast. An in-character Kingpin would never accept a loss of that magnitude.

    And eventually, you'll get to the point where Peter either gives up and resigns himself to simply letting the justice system handle Fisk or, worse yet, straight out kills the guy.

    The third option would be someone else killing Fisk as Peter goes, "NO!"

    Think about it.
    Have it as an arc.
    Kingpin retaliates. MJ is nearly killed, but since she's younger she makes a full recovery.
    Spidey goes back, grabs Kingpin, who has that "Go on. Beat me up and let me live" look, and Spidey/Peter stares him down and says "You made me a murderer."
    Then have the comic/arc end with Spidey holding Kingpin up in the air, and "SNAP" across the panel.
    And "THE END" in the corner.

    Or, if we'd rather not have Spidey kill someone.
    "I said I'd never kill you, Fisk. I won't take that back."
    "*Snikt*But his friends never made that promise, bub."
    Maybe have Pete pissed at Logan for doing what he never wanted to see done.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • PantheraOncaPantheraOnca Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    i'd prefer if he ripped off his arms and legs, crushed his genitals, then cauterized all the wounds so he wouldnt die.

    or some other suitably horrific-but-not-outright-murder something.


    or maybe just like, kidnap him, then punch him in the head daily until he's permanently retarded.

    maybe i should stop thinking about what i would do to people if i had superpowers and wanted to take revenge on someone.

  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    The problem with endings like that is that it doesn't make sense for Kingpin to not retaliate by killing the rest of Spider-Man's supporting cast. An in-character Kingpin would never accept a loss of that magnitude.

    And eventually, you'll get to the point where Peter either gives up and resigns himself to simply letting the justice system handle Fisk or, worse yet, straight out kills the guy.

    The third option would be someone else killing Fisk as Peter goes, "NO!"

    Think about it.
    Have it as an arc.
    Kingpin retaliates. MJ is nearly killed, but since she's younger she makes a full recovery.
    Spidey goes back, grabs Kingpin, who has that "Go on. Beat me up and let me live" look, and Spidey/Peter stares him down and says "You made me a murderer."
    Then have the comic/arc end with Spidey holding Kingpin up in the air, and "SNAP" across the panel.
    And "THE END" in the corner.

    Or, if we'd rather not have Spidey kill someone.
    "I said I'd never kill you, Fisk. I won't take that back."
    "*Snikt*But his friends never made that promise, bub."
    Maybe have Pete pissed at Logan for doing what he never wanted to see done.

    It'd be a powerful moment, but it's just not worth it in the long run for what it does to the character and the series. I mean, we'll pretty have to ask ourselves again and again why he doesn't just kill every villain who's ever endangered a human life.

    Home-1.jpg
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    i'd prefer if he ripped off his arms and legs, crushed his genitals, then cauterized all the wounds so he wouldnt die.

    or some other suitably horrific-but-not-outright-murder something.


    or maybe just like, kidnap him, then punch him in the head daily until he's permanently retarded.

    maybe i should stop thinking about what i would do to people if i had superpowers and wanted to take revenge on someone.

    Good lord, they're multiplying.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The problem with endings like that is that it doesn't make sense for Kingpin to not retaliate by killing the rest of Spider-Man's supporting cast. An in-character Kingpin would never accept a loss of that magnitude.

    And eventually, you'll get to the point where Peter either gives up and resigns himself to simply letting the justice system handle Fisk or, worse yet, straight out kills the guy.

    The third option would be someone else killing Fisk as Peter goes, "NO!"

    Think about it.
    Have it as an arc.
    Kingpin retaliates. MJ is nearly killed, but since she's younger she makes a full recovery.
    Spidey goes back, grabs Kingpin, who has that "Go on. Beat me up and let me live" look, and Spidey/Peter stares him down and says "You made me a murderer."
    Then have the comic/arc end with Spidey holding Kingpin up in the air, and "SNAP" across the panel.
    And "THE END" in the corner.

    Or, if we'd rather not have Spidey kill someone.
    "I said I'd never kill you, Fisk. I won't take that back."
    "*Snikt*But his friends never made that promise, bub."
    Maybe have Pete pissed at Logan for doing what he never wanted to see done.

    It'd be a powerful moment, but it's just not worth it in the long run for what it does to the character and the series. I mean, we'll pretty have to ask ourselves again and again why he doesn't just kill every villain who's ever endangered a human life.

    well, Pete has always snapped when his loved ones are hurt.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    I thought that part of the point of beating him so senseless was to get kingpin to pay for May's hospital bills in the hopes that she doesn't die.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • BriareosBriareos Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I thought that part of the point of beating him so senseless was to get kingpin to pay for May's hospital bills in the hopes that she doesn't die.

    I had the same impression.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HooraydiationHooraydiation Registered User
    edited August 2007
    I hope she actually does die.

    Home-1.jpg
  • TransporterTransporter Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Aunt May has been dead weight for quite awhile.

    He dosen't need a moral compass anymore. He has his own.

  • Kris_xKKris_xK Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I hope she actually does die.


    I am getting kinda sick of reading about her. That and shes been 80 something for the past 20 years.

    calvinhobbessleddingsig2.gif
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    like i said, he should have snapped his back in two without killing him. though i guess that is just inviting retaliation...still, that'd be my editorial call. in the end i really don't mind what they went with. it still provided for some really badass spidey moments

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2007
    It's a rather hard thing to do, snapping the back without killing.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    It's a rather hard thing to do, snapping the back without killing.

    in comic books or real life? :P

  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    I'm actually surprised the Spider-Man's and Batman's of the comic book world haven't started killing off more of their enemies. The bad guys kill,rape,steal,make clones of you, get your first love preggers, murder your parents, etc and no matter how many times you beat them up (at no small price to the hero for doing so) and take them to jail they escape/are released and do it all over again.

    But since these are comic book characters and blah blah blah they represent whats good and noble about the human spir-yadda yadda- I can see why you wouldn't want Spider-Man torturing Kingpin to death for the death of Aunt May.

    I guess Peter is a closet buddhist or somehthing. ;)

  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    or he's a decent human being

    7LmZWpZ.jpg
    Steam | 3DS: 3497-0691-2891
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Keith wrote: »
    or he's a decent human being

    I think Keith is onto something.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    What? Killing someone invalidates your "decent person" status?

    YOU DON"T SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

    I kid, I kid.

  • JCMJCM Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Someone in skin tight body suits shooting sticky white fluids at people. decent?

    Never!. More on how heroes are corruting our youth at 9.

  • AlgertmanAlgertman Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    JCM wrote: »
    Someone in skin tight body suits shooting sticky white fluids at people. decent?

    Never!. More on how heroes are corruting our youth at 9.

    and bubble gum

    it's Satan's spooge

    PSN; AlbertBOMB
  • LRGLRG Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    Keith wrote: »
    or he's a decent human being

    I think the decent thing to do would be to kill Norman Osborn so he doesn't kill any more innocent folk.

  • CharmyCharmy Registered User
    edited August 2007
    LRG wrote: »
    Keith wrote: »
    or he's a decent human being

    I think the decent thing to do would be to kill Norman Osborn so he doesn't kill any more innocent folk.

    Technically, the decent thing would be for the police to lock Norman up and never let him out again.

    This is always what gets me about people arguing superheroes (especially Batman, as people always bring this up in relation to The Joker) are immoral for not killing villains. In a general sense Spider-Man et al act as a supplement to the law, capturing those it would be difficult for the regular police to take down. While this raises tricky issues about vigilantism, it can still be seen as "moral" for the purposes of a comic.

    However, if Spider-Man goes around killing people, he stops supplementing the law and instead becomes the law. Suddenly he gets to decide who lives and dies, just because he was bitten by a radioactive spider? At this point he becomes a fascist. For Spider-Man to remain a hero in the stories, he has to defer to a larger societal framework to decide questions of guilt and punishment.

    In real life, this system would work pretty well. After all the shit they've done, would Osbourne or The Joker really get out of jail again? Probably not. But in the world of comics they have to keep coming back to menace the hero, and so traditional law has to be shown to be insufficient. Just another example of how applying real-world standards to comics is fraught with peril.

  • Me Too!Me Too! __BANNED USERS regular
    edited August 2007
    The whole issue of Spider-Man killing was addressed, sort of, with the whole "I'm not going to kill you. I am." thing.
    If and when he takes out Kingpin, it won't be Spider-Man who does it, because that defeats the purpose of Spider-Man, the hero. It's going to be Peter Parker, pissed off badass getting revenge for what happened to May.

  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited August 2007
    So how does the Punisher fit in to the philosophical debate?

    Or the Authority?

    Or Wolverine?

    Are they just anti-heroes?

  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    devoir wrote: »
    So how does the Punisher fit in to the philosophical debate?

    Or the Authority?

    Or Wolverine?

    Are they just anti-heroes?

    No, they're just all assholes.

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • devoirdevoir Registered User
    edited August 2007
    Sweet.

    "I know what I want to be when I grow up, Mummy!"
    "What's that, dear?"
    "An ASSHOLE!"

  • mattharvestmattharvest Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    devoir wrote: »
    So how does the Punisher fit in to the philosophical debate?

    Or the Authority?

    Or Wolverine?

    Are they just anti-heroes?

    You're conflating different topics.

    Punisher/Wolverine are, in fact, only at best "anti-heroes" because they believe that while the current laws are just, they (Punisher/Wolverine) are not required to obey those laws. They (and "heroes" like them) believe that they have the right to violate the very laws that they are punishing people for violating.

    The Authority, on the other hand, decided that the laws (and legal system) were in fact invalid and unjust. They decided to completely overthrow the government, and install a more valid system.

    Now, the Authority broke the law (see our discussions re: Civil War, secession and armed rebellion). However, they are different from Punisher/Wolverine because the Authority denied the legality of those laws, as opposed to paradoxically affirming the validity of the laws while violating the same.

    That doesn't mean the Authority were morally correct (there's the standard "why don't you put the whole world in a bottle" response), but it does mean that they're morally distinct from Punisher et al.

  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    edited August 2007
    The thing is, cops have no problem using lethal force on dangerous criminals. They don't do any fancy "shoot the gun out of their hand" stuff, they just try to kill them. Hell, sometimes they shoot a guy 30 times just for looking like he might be dangerous. In the real world, once you've got your gun up to someone's head, your life is pretty much forfeit.

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