Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. Next time, if you read a little closer, you'll see that I wasn't complaining about being surprised by these business practices. In fact, I was well aware of them, hence the 'I held off forever' part. Being aware of these practices does not magically remove my ability to complain about them. If you think things are going fine the way they are, then you go right on ahead with that.
Hugs and Kisses.
P.S.: OK, I'll admit to being pretty surprised about the gimping of the SD cards. I knew about the bluetooth crap, but really I just wanted a phone. The SD card would've been a nice addition, since I own a Wii, but it's not a big deal. I'm more disgusted by the general business practices of the cell phone companies. You'd think that in a market with such wide consumer appeal, we could see much lower prices, and a lot fewer attached strings. If you're providing a service that a majority of people 'need', it would be best to not be dicks about it.
But hey, if you think manufacturing a cell phone for ten dollars and marking it up to 200 dollars in order to get customers to sign long term contract is good business practice, I've got good news for you. I am the heir to the Nigerian Royal Holdings, and I am looking for a business partner in the US. Please forward me your bank account number.
Edit: And your parents, honestly, CAN be informed consumers, if they want to be. Saying "oh, they aren't interested in this stuff, so don't expect them to know it" is no excuse. We have consumer protection laws because they define a company's minimal requirements to consumers. Anything beyond that is the ultimate responsibility of the consumer. If your parents can't be bothered to learn anything about what they are buying, but insist on buying it anyway, why should that be the responsibility fo the company?
It's not that my parents "can't be bothered to learn anything about what they are buying". They know what they want: a cell phone so they can make and receive calls. Frankly, that's what many people only care about
And that is akin to walking to the car lot, and saying "give me something blue". Yes, there ARE people who do that, and no one suprised that they get ripped off. When it comes to researching a product, I'm not talking about features, I'm talking about price.
But I think it's improper to call people idiots just because they're complaining (like DrD did to Drav), or imply that anyone who does so is being lazy, or assume that anyone can suddenly be informed consumers (it's easy for us, don't assume it's easy for others). That's just being pompous.
First off, anyone CAN become informed consumers. The main reason I've been arguing this is because the BIGGEST issue here is the attitude that you, and others, have about all of this. There are plenty of resources, from Consumer Reports, to Google, that are available to EVERYONE. Even some one who has NEVER used a computer before would be hard-pressed to not understand how Google works, and hey, public libraries are full of free internet access.
Short of that, there is ALWAYS walking into two different stores and seeing how the prices compare.
DrD called Drav an idiot because that is what DrD does. You may not be away of every bit of forum history, but during the forum diaspora, after the destruction of M2, many of us went to wait on the ezboards until the forum was rebuilt. DrD was the former mod who showed up to "inform" us that Gabe and Tycho had ZERO intention of ever creating a new forum. Pissing people off is something he is good at.
In actuality, though, YOU are the one who is making people out to be idiots, by making exuses for their lack of self-advocation, by implying that they are somehow unable to. ANY human being has the ability to research things before they buy them. If they are too busy, or too disinterested, then they suffer what they suffer, but not for lack of ability to have known otherwise.
Consumer protection laws require companies to disclose certain information, but not to come knocking on your door to inform you individually. Our economic system benefits most from informed consumers, and no consumer has any excuse not to be informed.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. Next time, if you read a little closer, you'll see that I wasn't complaining about being surprised by these business practices. In fact, I was well aware of them, hence the 'I held off forever' part. Being aware of these practices does not magically remove my ability to complain about them. If you think things are going fine the way they are, then you go right on ahead with that.
I think the issue is more that not all plans HAVE these issues, but you just kind of assumed they did and plunged in, rather than looking around.
As for making a phone for 10 bucks, and selling it for 200. First of all, that's not 190 bucks of profit, that's just the contribution margin towards ALL of the company's other costs.
ON top of that, can YOU make a cell phone on your own, let alone for ten bucks? Companies only charge what people are willing to pay.
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. Next time, if you read a little closer, you'll see that I wasn't complaining about being surprised by these business practices. In fact, I was well aware of them, hence the 'I held off forever' part. Being aware of these practices does not magically remove my ability to complain about them. If you think things are going fine the way they are, then you go right on ahead with that.
I think the issue is more that not all plans HAVE these issues, but you just kind of assumed they did and plunged in, rather than looking around.
As for making a phone for 10 bucks, and selling it for 200. First of all, that's not 190 bucks of profit, that's just the contribution margin towards ALL of the company's other costs.
ON top of that, can YOU make a cell phone on your own, let alone for ten bucks? Companies only charge what people are willing to pay.
No, I'm well aware. I used to work customer service for Motorola/Nextel. I had to go with Verizon simply for the coverage area, and it sucks. People are 'willing to pay' because cell phones are almost 'standard' these days. Kids 'need' them because every at school has them. Adults 'need' them for the convenience. I am well aware that rollover and free data transfer are not 'standard'. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be. It is up to the consumers to demand more of the companies, because the companies only see money.
Would it be OK for grocery stores to charge $100 for a gallon of milk, because people are willing to pay? How about bread? People need cars too, so it'd be OK to mark those up to $100,000 or more, because people would be willing to pay?
I think there are a great deal of people who are unhappy with the cost of their cell phones/plans, but if they NEED a cell phone, then they'll NEED to pay. It's not a question of willingness.
First off, anyone CAN become informed consumers. The main reason I've been arguing this is because the BIGGEST issue here is the attitude that you, and others, have about all of this. There are plenty of resources, from Consumer Reports, to Google, that are available to EVERYONE. Even some one who has NEVER used a computer before would be hard-pressed to not understand how Google works, and hey, public libraries are full of free internet access.
*face palm*
Yes, I agree that technically anyone can become informed consumers. But for many people, it's actually not easy to do research, let alone use a computer, know how to use Google, etc. Even if they knew how to do it, it doesn't mean people want to, or should be required to in order not to be fleeced. (More on that in a bit ...)
I'm also not talking merely about price. I agree that comparison shopping is one of the most basic and easiest methods consumers have. Rather, I was referring to other aspects of the cell phone industry as an example (being locked into long contracts, not being able to simply buy a phone and use it from carrier to carrier, and in the past, being forced to change numbers just because you wanted to switch).
In actuality, though, YOU are the one who is making people out to be idiots, by making exuses for their lack of self-advocation, by implying that they are somehow unable to. ANY human being has the ability to research things before they buy them. If they are too busy, or too disinterested, then they suffer what they suffer, but not for lack of ability to have known otherwise.
No, I'm not making people out to be idiots. It's rather the opposite. Over the course of my studies, my life, my travels, I've met many brilliant people that were not technical. They were geniuses in art, music, and even science, but sit them in front of a computer, and all they could do was check e-mail. A large part is because that's all they wanted to do. There were far more interesting things to do and learn, than how to properly use Google, or do research on-line, or read forums all day.
Yes, technically they can learn how to do these things, but I'm not about to say that they otherwise deserve bad service just because they don't. Is that what you're implying? That they should suffer for it? I don't think they're entitled (through government regulation, etc.) for excellent service, but I think as consumers, we always have the right to bring up criticisms, concerns, and request whatever the heck we want.
The thing I don't understand is why you're being so apologetic to the cell phone companies. What does it matter to us techies, if the companies start providing better customer service (less confusing contracts, ability to transfer phones from one carrier to another, etc.) to the "uninformed"? I sure as hell don't care if my parents aren't confused by cell phone dealings and that everything is straight forward to them, despite not being able to research online.
i think the bigger question is why do people feel they need a cellphone. I had one for a couple years, and it was nice. But ive been without one for 2 years now and its had no impact on my life what so ever. Maybe i just dont have enough friends. Maybe i just dont want to be bothered when im out and about. Who knows. But what i do know is im sure as hell not paying $40 a month for a phone i'll hardly use. $20? Sure, id consider it. I have a hard enough time paying for my land line for $30 a month.
I am personally thrilled about this. I just signed up for a new 2 year contract with Verizon (best coverage for my area) in February, so by the time this could be rolling I'll be out of my contract and ready to move on to the next big thing in wireless. Hopefully we'll have some nice, fairly inexpensive PDA style phones with low costs for unlimited data usage that I can hop from whatever company I want to depending on the price and service they give me.
My only dilemma is to upgrade my wife's phone (and extend the contract again) in Nov or not. We'll see where her phone is at. If it aint broke and she's not complaining we'll try to stick it out until this is up.
And I do need a cell phone. I have a wife and a baby, and depending on if she is out or I am out we need to keep in touch. Plus it's nice to be able to call my parents or her parents and not get charged long distance vs. a home phone and I don't have to deal with VOIP.
That, and I'm ridiculous when it comes to texting.
i think the bigger question is why do people feel they need a cellphone. I had one for a couple years, and it was nice. But ive been without one for 2 years now and its had no impact on my life what so ever. Maybe i just dont have enough friends. Maybe i just dont want to be bothered when im out and about. Who knows. But what i do know is im sure as hell not paying $40 a month for a phone i'll hardly use. $20? Sure, id consider it. I have a hard enough time paying for my land line for $30 a month.
Well people do like the convenience of being able to take calls away from home... If you don't want to be bothered you can always turn it off. Finally with a cellphone you don't need a land line.
i think the bigger question is why do people feel they need a cellphone. I had one for a couple years, and it was nice. But ive been without one for 2 years now and its had no impact on my life what so ever. Maybe i just dont have enough friends. Maybe i just dont want to be bothered when im out and about. Who knows. But what i do know is im sure as hell not paying $40 a month for a phone i'll hardly use. $20? Sure, id consider it. I have a hard enough time paying for my land line for $30 a month.
Well people do like the convenience of being able to take calls away from home... If you don't want to be bothered you can always turn it off. Finally with a cellphone you don't need a land line.
which is why i use to have a cell. Single guy on the go sort of thing, no need for a land line. Now that im married with children, the wife wanted a land line for emergencies and local calling to friends and family. And if you do have a cell, whats the point of turning it off when your not at home if you allready have a phone at home? Seems rather silly. Maybe im just old fashoned.
i think the bigger question is why do people feel they need a cellphone. I had one for a couple years, and it was nice. But ive been without one for 2 years now and its had no impact on my life what so ever. Maybe i just dont have enough friends. Maybe i just dont want to be bothered when im out and about. Who knows. But what i do know is im sure as hell not paying $40 a month for a phone i'll hardly use. $20? Sure, id consider it. I have a hard enough time paying for my land line for $30 a month.
Well people do like the convenience of being able to take calls away from home... If you don't want to be bothered you can always turn it off. Finally with a cellphone you don't need a land line.
which is why i use to have a cell. Single guy on the go sort of thing, no need for a land line. Now that im married with children, the wife wanted a land line for emergencies and local calling to friends and family. And if you do have a cell, whats the point of turning it off when your not at home if you allready have a phone at home? Seems rather silly. Maybe im just old fashoned.
I keep my cell off in the movies, at dinner, during meetings, and when I'm too tired to talk to people. I keep it on during sporting events in case I'm on TV and someone sees me. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
i think the bigger question is why do people feel they need a cellphone. I had one for a couple years, and it was nice. But ive been without one for 2 years now and its had no impact on my life what so ever. Maybe i just dont have enough friends. Maybe i just dont want to be bothered when im out and about. Who knows. But what i do know is im sure as hell not paying $40 a month for a phone i'll hardly use. $20? Sure, id consider it. I have a hard enough time paying for my land line for $30 a month.
I drive about 20 miles to work every day. In the time between October and April, that drive can be extremely dangerous, with snow drifts, ice, sleet, and wind. It's kinda nice to have the knowledge that if something goes wrong, I can get a truck to pull me out of a snow bank without having to walk 8+ miles to an interstate exit and a phone.
That makes cell phones a better deal for me than a landline.
Yes, yay FCC. They pretty much backed Google's play against the Telecom industry.
Some are comparing it to the 1968 Carterfone ruling that broke up the AT&T monopoly on landline telephones. It doesn't do everything consumer advocates wanted - the wholesale leasing would have opened the wireless phone market to many new carriers - but it does somewhat pry open the deathgrip carriers have over their networks.
Combined with the July 1st CableCard ruling which opened the cable box market, the door is opened further for wireless capabilities to approach that of the general Internet. Using the new band something like say, a Tivo or Apple TV or HTPC would be able to capture a cable TV show and then stream it to your cellphone via a 3rd party application that your carrier wouldn't have control of.
Posts
Thanks for your kind words of encouragement. Next time, if you read a little closer, you'll see that I wasn't complaining about being surprised by these business practices. In fact, I was well aware of them, hence the 'I held off forever' part. Being aware of these practices does not magically remove my ability to complain about them. If you think things are going fine the way they are, then you go right on ahead with that.
Hugs and Kisses.
P.S.: OK, I'll admit to being pretty surprised about the gimping of the SD cards. I knew about the bluetooth crap, but really I just wanted a phone. The SD card would've been a nice addition, since I own a Wii, but it's not a big deal. I'm more disgusted by the general business practices of the cell phone companies. You'd think that in a market with such wide consumer appeal, we could see much lower prices, and a lot fewer attached strings. If you're providing a service that a majority of people 'need', it would be best to not be dicks about it.
But hey, if you think manufacturing a cell phone for ten dollars and marking it up to 200 dollars in order to get customers to sign long term contract is good business practice, I've got good news for you. I am the heir to the Nigerian Royal Holdings, and I am looking for a business partner in the US. Please forward me your bank account number.
And that is akin to walking to the car lot, and saying "give me something blue". Yes, there ARE people who do that, and no one suprised that they get ripped off. When it comes to researching a product, I'm not talking about features, I'm talking about price.
First off, anyone CAN become informed consumers. The main reason I've been arguing this is because the BIGGEST issue here is the attitude that you, and others, have about all of this. There are plenty of resources, from Consumer Reports, to Google, that are available to EVERYONE. Even some one who has NEVER used a computer before would be hard-pressed to not understand how Google works, and hey, public libraries are full of free internet access.
Short of that, there is ALWAYS walking into two different stores and seeing how the prices compare.
DrD called Drav an idiot because that is what DrD does. You may not be away of every bit of forum history, but during the forum diaspora, after the destruction of M2, many of us went to wait on the ezboards until the forum was rebuilt. DrD was the former mod who showed up to "inform" us that Gabe and Tycho had ZERO intention of ever creating a new forum. Pissing people off is something he is good at.
In actuality, though, YOU are the one who is making people out to be idiots, by making exuses for their lack of self-advocation, by implying that they are somehow unable to. ANY human being has the ability to research things before they buy them. If they are too busy, or too disinterested, then they suffer what they suffer, but not for lack of ability to have known otherwise.
Consumer protection laws require companies to disclose certain information, but not to come knocking on your door to inform you individually. Our economic system benefits most from informed consumers, and no consumer has any excuse not to be informed.
I think the issue is more that not all plans HAVE these issues, but you just kind of assumed they did and plunged in, rather than looking around.
As for making a phone for 10 bucks, and selling it for 200. First of all, that's not 190 bucks of profit, that's just the contribution margin towards ALL of the company's other costs.
ON top of that, can YOU make a cell phone on your own, let alone for ten bucks? Companies only charge what people are willing to pay.
No, I'm well aware. I used to work customer service for Motorola/Nextel. I had to go with Verizon simply for the coverage area, and it sucks. People are 'willing to pay' because cell phones are almost 'standard' these days. Kids 'need' them because every at school has them. Adults 'need' them for the convenience. I am well aware that rollover and free data transfer are not 'standard'. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be. It is up to the consumers to demand more of the companies, because the companies only see money.
Would it be OK for grocery stores to charge $100 for a gallon of milk, because people are willing to pay? How about bread? People need cars too, so it'd be OK to mark those up to $100,000 or more, because people would be willing to pay?
I think there are a great deal of people who are unhappy with the cost of their cell phones/plans, but if they NEED a cell phone, then they'll NEED to pay. It's not a question of willingness.
Yes, I agree that technically anyone can become informed consumers. But for many people, it's actually not easy to do research, let alone use a computer, know how to use Google, etc. Even if they knew how to do it, it doesn't mean people want to, or should be required to in order not to be fleeced. (More on that in a bit ...)
I'm also not talking merely about price. I agree that comparison shopping is one of the most basic and easiest methods consumers have. Rather, I was referring to other aspects of the cell phone industry as an example (being locked into long contracts, not being able to simply buy a phone and use it from carrier to carrier, and in the past, being forced to change numbers just because you wanted to switch).
No, I'm not making people out to be idiots. It's rather the opposite. Over the course of my studies, my life, my travels, I've met many brilliant people that were not technical. They were geniuses in art, music, and even science, but sit them in front of a computer, and all they could do was check e-mail. A large part is because that's all they wanted to do. There were far more interesting things to do and learn, than how to properly use Google, or do research on-line, or read forums all day.
Yes, technically they can learn how to do these things, but I'm not about to say that they otherwise deserve bad service just because they don't. Is that what you're implying? That they should suffer for it? I don't think they're entitled (through government regulation, etc.) for excellent service, but I think as consumers, we always have the right to bring up criticisms, concerns, and request whatever the heck we want.
The thing I don't understand is why you're being so apologetic to the cell phone companies. What does it matter to us techies, if the companies start providing better customer service (less confusing contracts, ability to transfer phones from one carrier to another, etc.) to the "uninformed"? I sure as hell don't care if my parents aren't confused by cell phone dealings and that everything is straight forward to them, despite not being able to research online.
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My only dilemma is to upgrade my wife's phone (and extend the contract again) in Nov or not. We'll see where her phone is at. If it aint broke and she's not complaining we'll try to stick it out until this is up.
And I do need a cell phone. I have a wife and a baby, and depending on if she is out or I am out we need to keep in touch. Plus it's nice to be able to call my parents or her parents and not get charged long distance vs. a home phone and I don't have to deal with VOIP.
That, and I'm ridiculous when it comes to texting.
which is why i use to have a cell. Single guy on the go sort of thing, no need for a land line. Now that im married with children, the wife wanted a land line for emergencies and local calling to friends and family. And if you do have a cell, whats the point of turning it off when your not at home if you allready have a phone at home? Seems rather silly. Maybe im just old fashoned.
I drive about 20 miles to work every day. In the time between October and April, that drive can be extremely dangerous, with snow drifts, ice, sleet, and wind. It's kinda nice to have the knowledge that if something goes wrong, I can get a truck to pull me out of a snow bank without having to walk 8+ miles to an interstate exit and a phone.
That makes cell phones a better deal for me than a landline.
Yes, yay FCC. They pretty much backed Google's play against the Telecom industry.
Some are comparing it to the 1968 Carterfone ruling that broke up the AT&T monopoly on landline telephones. It doesn't do everything consumer advocates wanted - the wholesale leasing would have opened the wireless phone market to many new carriers - but it does somewhat pry open the deathgrip carriers have over their networks.
Combined with the July 1st CableCard ruling which opened the cable box market, the door is opened further for wireless capabilities to approach that of the general Internet. Using the new band something like say, a Tivo or Apple TV or HTPC would be able to capture a cable TV show and then stream it to your cellphone via a 3rd party application that your carrier wouldn't have control of.